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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Finney View Post
    On this forum, multiclassing is usually about optimization. At most tables I have played it, players use it more for fun or thematic reasons.
    Agree, agree, agree.

    The conversation is kind of coming from a weird place, I think. This is a board where a TON of the players are focused on optimization. The people here are a very small and very specific sample size of players. You're looking at one specific place that's HUGELY about optimization, looking at one thing the people here use to optimize, and going "look at all the obsession with optimization! isn't this thing they're using to optimize BAD?" You might as well ask if feats are ruining the game, or if the class guides on this forum are keeping D&D players from ever taking fun but "suboptimal" spells, or if the existence of Variant Human is awful because no one will play anything else with them around. You're starting from the flawed premise that A)this place represents way more than a tiny fraction of the playerbase and B)the thing being used to optimize is the problem, rather than the "obsession" with optimization.

    And, to be quite honest, I don't even think there's an inherent problem with an "obsession" with optimization. Not unless not everyone at that particular table is on the same page about it. If players and/or the DM are interfering with each others' fun via minmaxing, or insulting each other over not optimizing, then that's an issue (and again, a very different issue than multiclassing existing; if it wasn't multiclassing it would be something else with those types of players). If everyone at the table is super into optimization, or totally on board with the players who are doing their thing? Their fun is still valid fun. Godspeed to 'em.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    I've played a Bard 1/Wild Sorc 6/Wiz 1. Rolled an 18 for Charisma. It was tons of fun and I was dealing almost zero damage per round. So I wouldn't say it's destroying the game.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    I'm running a game, and playing in another, where MC is not allowed. I ruled it for the game I'm running just to simplify the choices for new players. The DM I'm playing with ruled it for similar reasons.

    I'm finding the games a lot more enjoyable than those where MCing is allowed; the players (myself included) aren't scrutinizing every possible build synergy between classes; no 'covfefelock' shenanigans to worry about and a hundred other 'unintentional mechanical benefits' to stress over.

    It seems everyone requesting builds online are looking for synergies to MC with - and I guess that makes sense - it's not hard to build a straight Paladin or Cleric or Warlock, once you know which subclasses look fun. But I kinda wish AL didn't include the option.

    I'd rather tailor a homebrew subclass that feels like a multiclass combination than open up MCing again; which seems to be the direction the subclasses in Xanathar's went as well.

    Anyone else feel this way?
    Just responding to this: No, but there's a reason. Look at Eldritch Knight. Look at Bladesinger. Those are vastly different ways to play a Fighter/Wizard, but as subclasses. But they also aren't the same as playing an actual Fighter/Wizard. And while you can homebrew as you like, you'd have to get really specific and tricky to get Battlemaster/Necromancer. Now, if homebrew works for you and your group: great! But nothing about multiclassing inherently damages the game, only players who misuse it (and I assume that doesn't apply to most people on this forum)
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Multi-classing isn't being used as it was originally designed as far as I can tell.

    Multi-classing was originally introduced as an RP choice to help players play the character they felt most appropriately suited their PC, but currently is being used to break interactions (coffee-sorlocks), fix class progression that sucks (Rogue multi-classing after Ranger 5 seems to be the most common, but other classes which do not progress well see multi-classing frequently) or as a means to include bells and whistles from other classes with a small progression cost (1-2 level dips for armor proficiency or useful abilities).

    I think these are all symptoms stem from there being very high discrepancies between the damage output and utility of different classes (huge discrepancies in some cases)
    Last edited by TheUser; 2017-12-05 at 02:37 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Finney View Post
    That's not really relevant or germane to my point.

    My point is that multiclassing is an optional rule and if a DM chooses not to use an optional rule, nothing is being restricted, removed or "taken" away from players. You don't have that option by default, so you can't "lose" what you never had.
    Is it a potential option for players. Yes. Is the DM allowing it? No. The DM is restricting it. The guy who was straight classing anyway is not affected. The guy who wasn't intending to? Well **** that guy. **** that guy in particular.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Is it a potential option for players. Yes. Is the DM allowing it? No. The DM is restricting it. The guy who was straight classing anyway is not affected. The guy who wasn't intending to? Well **** that guy. **** that guy in particular.
    Optional rules are optional rules. If a DM is adamant about not including one or any of them, there's two things to remember:
    1) The DM should tell this to his players upfront.
    2) If you agree to play in this campaign, you are also agreeing to these optional rules being excluded, so stop whining about it.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    It seems like some people feel that if any optional rule is printed, it should be included if the player wants it. Are the people who are negative to restricting multiclassing, also negative to restricting available races to choose from? Should every race or monster printed exist in the setting? (The PHB says no)

    If the DM wants to restrict some optional rules, there are usually reasons for that. If you can't agree to those reasons, don't participate.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    BardGirl

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Yup. Not all races, classes, archetypes, backgrounds, languages, weapons, armors, gear, spells, feats, or 'multiclasses' (and so on,) are turned on in my various games. My setting has an ideal vision for demographics and coherency. Player requests outside of that are merely just that: requests.

    Go your own way and have fun!

    As for whether the optimization topics are imposing and or intimidating? Possibly. Not everyone is so into that solitaire mini-game, let alone expect to play up to lvl 20. So it probably does scare off some casuals who are not so invested in those thought experiments.

    But the solution to that is people posting more topics of what we find interesting and fun about DnD beyond our hyperfixations at the moment. Yay second person voice call out to encourage topic diversity!
    Last edited by opaopajr; 2017-12-05 at 05:48 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    Anyone else feel this way?
    Yup. Single class only, no feats, is the way to go. Not only that, if you run it in the same stores as AL it's a huge draw.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Yup. Single class only, no feats, is the way to go. Not only that, if you run it in the same stores as AL it's a huge draw.
    Do you allow races from Volo's Guide and/or the new subclasses from Xanathar's?

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by MxKit View Post
    This is a board where a TON of the players are focused on optimization.
    The staggering number of people on any thread vaguely related to optimization screaming "badwrongfun!" puts lie to this statement, methinks.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2017-12-05 at 07:28 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    My problem is you either build classes with the assumption that multiclassing occurs, so you deliberately withhold the fun stuff to higher levels (which means a pureclass character gets screwed into early-level boredom), or you create them as if it doesn't, and allow classes to get their signature abilities at first level (at which point they get molested by dippers). Taking multiclassing off the table allows classes to dole out the fun toys from early on, without the fear of someone munchkinning their way through a pile of powerful level 1 abilities.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Multiclassing allows a higher level of Customisation to your Character; Instead of being a generic Wizard or Generic Fighter, you have invested more into your Character's identity as the game developed. I believe it to be more interesting than non multiclassing.

    What you might find disatisfying is multiclassing for optimisation; That is understandable, as it tends to take away the "magic and mystery from D&D" all together. A good DM however will see that all players are well balanced, and make you "earn" your optimisation/multiclass.

    I'll give an example: I want to multiclass into Barbarian for a bonus to AC. My character was a calm wizard
    till now, and never throw a punsh. Where is the RP logic behind that? I'll have to change my RP a lot for the DM to allow me to take a level into Barbarian, and it gives me an RP goal outside of completing the Quest, something like a checkbox or a "to do list". "Nothing is automatically gained, you have to actually earn it though RP" is a good rule of thumb in order not to ruin your D&D experiance. I even extend this rule when it does not apply, such as when I play RPGs on the PC, and I enjoy them a lot more.

    Hope I helped you with this post.
    Last edited by Asmotherion; 2017-12-05 at 08:07 AM.

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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    I actually think multiclassing in general is pretty well balanced in 5e.

    The only issue I've had with it is that you can't easily replicate characters from previous editions who were even split multi-classes I had a 2nd ed 15/15 fighter mage who had topped out his advancement effectively, and he's virtually impossible to duplicate in this system without totally changing his schtick. But it's not really ruining anything just makes it harder to convert some characters from older editions.

    the 20th level abilities are generally pretty good, and the slowdown in advancement in exchange for the new abilities with locking out other abilities makes multi-classing more of a trade off than it's been in the previous versions of D&D I've played. (I never touched 4th)

    It's clearly good from a structure of the game perspective, but I actually miss some of the higher level abilities stacks from previous eds. Some people deride that as power gaming, but sometimes power gaming is fine and when it's not it's easy enough for DMs to make clear.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Nah, the game is fine.

    Multi-classing might be ruining the civility of this sub-forum, though.
    This. Exactly.
    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Human over Wood Elf over Gnome; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over Robin Hood.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Toofey View Post
    I actually think multiclassing in general is pretty well balanced in 5e.

    The only issue I've had with it is that you can't easily replicate characters from previous editions who were even split multi-classes I had a 2nd ed 15/15 fighter mage who had topped out his advancement effectively, and he's virtually impossible to duplicate in this system without totally changing his schtick. But it's not really ruining anything just makes it harder to convert some characters from older editions.

    the 20th level abilities are generally pretty good, and the slowdown in advancement in exchange for the new abilities with locking out other abilities makes multi-classing more of a trade off than it's been in the previous versions of D&D I've played. (I never touched 4th)

    It's clearly good from a structure of the game perspective, but I actually miss some of the higher level abilities stacks from previous eds. Some people deride that as power gaming, but sometimes power gaming is fine and when it's not it's easy enough for DMs to make clear.
    15/15 Fighter/Mage can be worked out with various Gish builds, especially now with the new Xanathar guide.

    You can even be a full caster (with access to 9th level spells) and be at least as competant in melee as a non-magic user.

    You just need to refluff you class development a bit. A wizard or sorcerer level could not only represent your dedication to Arcane study, but spliting your attention between that and martial training. Same with an Eldritch Knight for example.

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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    This debate, like nearly every other Dungeons and Dragons debate since forever, is ultimately about the role of the DM in the group. One school says the DM is the sole figure of authority; the other that the DM is essentially just another player operating within the same set of guidelines as the others. Where individuals come down in these cases is mostly determined by how they see the DM's place in the group.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    The maximum character level is 20. How can you be a 15/15 multiclass?

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    The maximum character level is 20. How can you be a 15/15 multiclass?
    In older editions there was an experience cap, not a level cap

    because the higher levels required so much more experience you could squeeze in 15 levels in the space of those last 5.

    That having been said, I think an EK 11/Wizard 9 definitely has the feel of a 15/15 from past editions.

    3 attacks per attack action and access to level 5 wizard spells. Lots of HP and full armor proficiency.
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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by sithlordnergal View Post
    More interesting characters, especially if the multiclass is wrapped in their backstory. Let me put it this way. Which sounds more interesting? The straight Oath of the Ancients Paladin? Or the Oath of the Ancients Paladin who's magical aura ended up going a bit haywire after having absorbed too much magic, giving the Paladin unstable arcane magic that he must work hard to control? One is a straight Paladin, the other is a Paladin/Sorcerer with the Wild Magic Subclass.
    Pretty much my opinion on the matter.

    Sometimes you need to multiclass to fix a hole in the original design of the class. For example: a human shadow monk can teleport in darkness, but can't see in the magical darkness they create. 2 levels of warlock sorts this out, and can be perfectly thematic to boot.

    In terms of balance, sure, there are combinations that are stronger than others. But even the sorcadin isn't going to break the game the same way a 3.5 wizard would/could. It's more damage, not a god wizard. It's quite easy for a DM to make a player with a sub-optimal class/multiclass relevant, so I wouldn't worry about it.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    I'm finding the games a lot more enjoyable than those where MCing is allowed; the players (myself included) aren't scrutinizing every possible build synergy between classes; no 'covfefelock' shenanigans to worry about and a hundred other 'unintentional mechanical benefits' to stress over.

    It seems everyone requesting builds online are looking for synergies to MC with - and I guess that makes sense - it's not hard to build a straight Paladin or Cleric or Warlock, once you know which subclasses look fun.
    It seems to me that, at its core, what you really do not like is people online hyper-analyzing the game for competitive advantage, and you dislike the allowing of MC due to the competitive advantages which it opens up.

    There's no denying that a game with MC is going to have more cheese* options than one without MC.
    *which I am super-broadly defining as any competitive advantage option selection which one takes because of this online hyper-analysis that one otherwise wouldn't have taken.

    That said, it is the cheese selection that seems like the problem. That, and there is nothing specific about multiclassing that makes it a greater harbinger of cheese than any other given thing. Feats are also optional, and feats also open up various build choices one otherwise wouldn't take except that the online hyper-analysis showed it to be optimal. Heck, the 'most-broken' (so much so that we all pretty much ignore it as 'yeah, but who would ever allow that in their game?'-level irrelevant) rule abuse combo in the game -- Simulacrum/Wish exists without feats, multiclassing, or even races/classes outside of the free section of the PHB.

    My point is blaming MC for this issue is like in 3e when people tried to address the class-imbalance issues by banning non-core material--fine if you want to do that, but it doesn't really address the issue you are using as your reason for doing so. What really needs to happen is an agreement between DM and players on what type of game you want to be playing.

    Now, playing a multi-class free game for its own sake--that I can get behind. I would stress, however, that you will have players who want thematic multiclassing-- the elven fighter-mage from Basic D&D, for example. Some of these are easy to create with backgrounds (Criminal background to make a 'rogue-<something>), feats (Tavern Brawler to make a 'monk-<something>), or archetypes (Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster to make a lightly wizardy fighter or rogue). But others are not. Or your players might not agree that setup XYZ successfully captures the feel of a given multiclass idea.

    So be careful on throwing the multiclass baby out with the optimization-cheese bathwater. The two are not one in the same. But do limit multiclassing if it is multiclassing itself you want to control. But be cognizant of what genuine, thematic-rather-than-optimization choices you might be taking off the table.

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    In older editions there was an experience cap, not a level cap

    because the higher levels required so much more experience you could squeeze in 15 levels in the space of those last 5.

    That having been said, I think an EK 11/Wizard 9 definitely has the feel of a 15/15 from past editions.

    3 attacks per attack action and access to level 5 wizard spells. Lots of HP and full armor proficiency.
    Oh, sorry. I didn't read carefully. I thought he meant 5e, for which you get up to level 20 and proceed afterwards by gaining ASIs or boons.

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    It seems to me that, at its core, what you really do not like is people online hyper-analyzing the game for competitive advantage, and you dislike the allowing of MC due to the competitive advantages which it opens up.
    To extend, the problem is perhaps people thinking about the game competitively rather than cooperatively, and that expressing itself in people bringing to the table the nanobot swarms, uberchargers and the Twice-Betrayer because they want to be the most damaging, the most terrifying and the most invulnerable. So the DMs react by banning all the things that make those possible. But that hasn't changed the mentality, and the real solution to this problem - to the extent that it is a problem - is to get people back to thinking about how to best collaborate with each other to create a good experience.

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daphne View Post
    Do you allow races from Volo's Guide and/or the new subclasses from Xanathar's?
    No to Volos, XtgE will be yes starting next week for new characters. I'm still reviewing them.

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    No. Nein. Non.
    Last edited by TheTeaMustFlow; 2017-12-05 at 10:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    In older editions there was an experience cap, not a level cap

    because the higher levels required so much more experience you could squeeze in 15 levels in the space of those last 5.

    That having been said, I think an EK 11/Wizard 9 definitely has the feel of a 15/15 from past editions.

    3 attacks per attack action and access to level 5 wizard spells. Lots of HP and full armor proficiency.
    I'd say bladesinger 13 does everything a 15/15 2ed fighter mage could do and more. 2ed multiclass fighters got a lot less than 5ed multiclass fighters do.

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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    I hope in the next edition, they simply get away from spontaneous multi-classing and forcing DMs to come up with rules about it or Players having to story it, and go back to the old method of multi-classing at first level and your exp is divided between the different classes you chose. Makes far more sense game wise. Further they could allow at third level for one of those classes to pick an archetype to specialize in while still advancing in the other classes or ceasing advancement in the others to specialize in the archetype. I would still nix the old 2nd restrictions on race/class combos and race level limits to keep with the freer system we have had since 3rd.

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    No one should ever multiclass. It ruins every game.

    ...

    Multiclassing is a tool that provides more options for players. Optimizers will use those options more and to greater effect than non-optimizers.

    Here is the rub though. Optimizers will make better characters even when multiclassing isn't allowed. They will just have less fun. Yes, less fun. As it turns out people who like to theorycraft and make complex characters actually enjoy that aspect of the game.

    So what is ruining the game isn't an optional rule (MCing), it's optimizers. This is a valid complaint, and has been lamented on forums and school hallways for ages.

    In my anecdotal experience it hasn't been an issue. Players either care about these things and become optimizers themselves/ask for help from the optimizers or they enjoy other aspects of the game instead.

    The only time this ever really gets out of hand is when the DM isn't at least partially an optimizer. If the DM isn't an optimizer and as familiar with the rules, players can get away with cheesy shady mechanics and interactions. While an optimizer DM can spot and stop that, they also can always come up with challenges to make all the players shine, and attack the weaknesses of the optimized character. It is usually going to be a lot more fun if you raise the challenge to the player rather than attempt to kneecap the optimizer. (I'm not saying that not allowing an optional rule of MCing is kneecapping optimizers. I'm just saying it's more fun in general to buff foes over gimp players.)

    This is just my opinion and you can play the game any way you want. Now on the other hand when you start saying AL shouldn't allow MCing let me go get my torch and pitchfork...
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2017-12-05 at 10:55 AM.
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    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Multiclassing is inelegant at best. Classes are designed as a chassis to which abilities are added on.

    Subclasses are the perfect way to handle it.

    I like my D&D to have classes. I like my D&D to have archetypes represented by those classes. Multiclassing is a clumsy way to try to create a classless system out of a game based around classes.

    There are plenty of ways to customize characters in the default rules, especially when using feats.

    But to answer the titular question, no it isn't, because it is not the default and is easily played without it.
    Last edited by ad_hoc; 2017-12-05 at 11:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corsair14 View Post
    I hope in the next edition, they simply get away from spontaneous multi-classing and forcing DMs to come up with rules about it.
    Yes that is exactly what we need.

    Less rules created by game designers and more burden on a DM just trying to put a game session together.

    Real talk just drop classes altogether and make everything point buy. Problem solved if that's what you think the problem is.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2017-12-05 at 11:15 AM.

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