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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galactkaktus View Post
    I have an honest question whould a dex based paladin be enough to make you useful enough in those kind of situations? A longbow has a good range of 150/600 the reason i'm interested in making a dex based paladin is that i think that the feat Elven accuracy whould go very nicely with oath of vengence vow of enmity but that feat doesn't work if i use strength.
    Yes and no, you could certainly pull it off and Dex based Paladins are pretty good. The longbow will make you competent enough at ranged fighting that you won't be sitting and twiddling my thumbs as literally everyone else does the work. X3 You'll never be as good at archery as the Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue of course, but you'll be able to do a decent 1d8+Dex Mod with every attack. Mix that with Hunter's Mark and you are closer to the Ranger's damage output.

    As for close range, a Rapier is perfect for you, and you can easily wear Heavy Armor without the required strength. You'll just lose 10 feet of movement, which can be compensated for. And you will be better at Dex saves, which is always good.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    FabulousFizban's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Let me ask you a question: how many jobs have you had in your life? is being a multiclass Barista/Paralegal ruining your life?
    May I borrow some bat guano?

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Me? I'm a straight classed accountant. Been one since 1994. I guess you could say I dipped a level of DMing - 1 level is all I've ever devoted to it; I can tell because I don't typically use handouts or have 17 different plot contingencies as DMs I've played with have... but the players enjoy the games I run (I'm a little monty-haulish, so characters tend to look like Christmas Trees even in 5E...)
    Trollbait extraordinaire

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by FabulousFizban View Post
    Let me ask you a question: how many jobs have you had in your life? is being a multiclass Barista/Paralegal ruining your life?
    Well, the problem there is that the base classes are suboptimal.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    That said, it is the cheese selection that seems like the problem.
    This is the core problem of multiclassing that I often have the biggest problem with. It's not with MC as a means to better express your character concept, but it's when the player is clearly building a character around cheese that stinks to the high heavens.

  6. - Top - End - #186
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobard View Post
    This is the core problem of multiclassing that I often have the biggest problem with. It's not with MC as a means to better express your character concept, but it's when the player is clearly building a character around cheese that stinks to the high heavens.
    Most of the times when I see multi classing it is for 1 reason.

    A small dip into another class fixes one of the MAJOR shortcomings of their main class.

    ex. Paladins have almost no abilities at range, and lack any good bonus movement abilities to close distances over other classes.
    1 or 2 levels in any casting class that gets cantrips fixes that, and it gives them more ammo for smiting than they normally get.

    Many primary casters have trouble with good AC.
    Because armor does not interfere with casting in 5e a small dip into a class that gets armor and shields is a huge benefit to them and they can do it with a casting class to not be behind spell levels, just spells known.

    Also, most classes in 5e are front loaded with great abilities because they want people to enjoy the low levels of the game, but their mid or upper level abilities are just not as good.
    When other classes have better level 1 and 2 abilities than your own high level abilities, people are going to want to multi class.

    Ex. There are plenty of classes whose capstone is not even as good as the level 1 and 2 abilities of other classes.

    It is a design flaw of the system, don't blame others for fixing bad classes by mixing them.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobard View Post
    This is the core problem of multiclassing that I often have the biggest problem with. It's not with MC as a means to better express your character concept, but it's when the player is clearly building a character around cheese that stinks to the high heavens.

    I find this to be half-true. It's hard to disentangle cheese from character building sometimes. Take a Barb 5/Rogue 1 grappler. Most monsters have terrible ability to contest the grapple attempts from such a specialized character, so this could be considered cheese by some. What other things would that character need to be considered "expressing their character concept"? What if they go all out and put on a luchador mask? Is the fact that they designed the mechanics before they came up with the character enough to point towards metagaming rather than character design? Is the fact that grappling isn't the strongest a factor in deciding how cheesy the character is?

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    I find this to be half-true. It's hard to disentangle cheese from character building sometimes. Take a Barb 5/Rogue 1 grappler. Most monsters have terrible ability to contest the grapple attempts from such a specialized character, so this could be considered cheese by some. What other things would that character need to be considered "expressing their character concept"? What if they go all out and put on a luchador mask? Is the fact that they designed the mechanics before they came up with the character enough to point towards metagaming rather than character design? Is the fact that grappling isn't the strongest a factor in deciding how cheesy the character is?
    A cheesy character in my view is a character that is overly one-dimensional, and is unrivalable in one particular situation while being unable to contribute anywhere else. I don't care how the character was built, how improbable its origins or how powerful it is overall. My view here is informed by my particular DMing experience, which has mostly been running games for groups that are friends of mine and think collectively. I've had very few problems with players who want to be the Goku in a party of Yamchas.

  9. - Top - End - #189
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    Most of the times when I see multi classing it is for 1 reason.

    A small dip into another class fixes one of the MAJOR shortcomings of their main class.
    I don't think that a lack of Expertise or skills is a MAJOR shortcoming of a bard dipping into rogue. That is one example, in particular, that I had in mind.

    ex. Paladins have almost no abilities at range, and lack any good bonus movement abilities to close distances over other classes.
    1 or 2 levels in any casting class that gets cantrips fixes that, and it gives them more ammo for smiting than they normally get.

    Many primary casters have trouble with good AC.
    Because armor does not interfere with casting in 5e a small dip into a class that gets armor and shields is a huge benefit to them and they can do it with a casting class to not be behind spell levels, just spells known.

    Also, most classes in 5e are front loaded with great abilities because they want people to enjoy the low levels of the game, but their mid or upper level abilities are just not as good.
    When other classes have better level 1 and 2 abilities than your own high level abilities, people are going to want to multi class.

    Ex. There are plenty of classes whose capstone is not even as good as the level 1 and 2 abilities of other classes.

    It is a design flaw of the system, don't blame others for fixing bad classes by mixing them.
    As to the rest, I find that a lot of this is easily fixed by the GM simply offering to help alleviate some of these problems by throwing the players a bone or two. Bard needs some offensive cantrips? Here, go ahead and pick a sorcerer cantrip or two. Need armor and shields? You can stay in your class, but what would you be willing to give up of equivalent value for that?

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    I find this to be half-true. It's hard to disentangle cheese from character building sometimes. Take a Barb 5/Rogue 1 grappler. Most monsters have terrible ability to contest the grapple attempts from such a specialized character, so this could be considered cheese by some. What other things would that character need to be considered "expressing their character concept"? What if they go all out and put on a luchador mask? Is the fact that they designed the mechanics before they came up with the character enough to point towards metagaming rather than character design? Is the fact that grappling isn't the strongest a factor in deciding how cheesy the character is?
    Yes, but IMHO "grappling" is in itself often designed as a cheese build, at least it was in 3E and 5E. I would probably disallow any character designed around grappling.

  10. - Top - End - #190
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    hold on - grappling is cheese? All it does is reduce movement. it locks down a single target (assuming they have no way of escaping). How is that cheese and something like banishment or force cage isn't?

  11. - Top - End - #191
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobard View Post
    This is the core problem of multiclassing that I often have the biggest problem with. It's not with MC as a means to better express your character concept, but it's when the player is clearly building a character around cheese that stinks to the high heavens.
    I feel that this misses the point of the rest of my post, that it is the cheese therefore that is the problem, and not multiclassing per se.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    mephnick's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    I've had very few problems with players who want to be the Goku in a party of Yamchas.
    I don't know what a Yamcha is, but it sounds disappointing.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by ad_hoc View Post
    Multiclassing is a clumsy way to try to create a classless system out of a game based around classes.
    Interesting way to put that, but I don't think that was the intent of multiclassing. (See the Grey Mouser and magical spells in Lieber's sword and sorcery stories).
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    For those playing along, I did use specifically antagonistic language in the hopes it would spark discussion, and that worked swimmingly.
    On the internet, that is called "trolling" and I will offer that you earn at least a B+ for this instance of same.
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    Women are also not abstract concepts. This is why gaming culture is toxic.
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    **** no. No fun on the internet. Must be serious as cancer all the time around and about women.
    Heh, that got me laughing.
    Quote Originally Posted by FabulousFizban View Post
    Let me ask you a question: how many jobs have you had in your life? is being a multiclass Barista/Paralegal ruining your life?
    It may cut down on hours for sleep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    Me? I'm a straight classed accountant. Been one since 1994. I guess you could say I dipped a level of DMing - 1 level is all I've ever devoted to it;
    What, do you DM for pay, or do you offer accountancy for free?
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    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) or so I am told ... by 2D8HP

  14. - Top - End - #194
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobard View Post
    Yes, but IMHO "grappling" is in itself often designed as a cheese build, at least it was in 3E and 5E. I would probably disallow any character designed around grappling.
    Uwot? Can you explain why grappling is cheese? Esp in 3.5. If you made a typo and meant to say Sense Danger, Anticipatory Strike Linked Sunchronicity Synchronicity ad infinitum, i could understand, but Grappling as a concept build was beaten by a 4th level spell called Black Tentacles in 3.5. Or Polymorph.

    Casters did Grappling betterthanyoutm, without spending much more than an hours prep every day and a spell slot, as opposed to permanent resources.

  15. - Top - End - #195
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Uwot? Can you explain why grappling is cheese? Esp in 3.5. If you made a typo and meant to say Sense Danger, Anticipatory Strike Linked Sunchronicity Synchronicity ad infinitum, i could understand, but Grappling as a concept build was beaten by a 4th level spell called Black Tentacles in 3.5. Or Polymorph.

    Casters did Grappling betterthanyoutm, without spending much more than an hours prep every day and a spell slot, as opposed to permanent resources.
    Grappling in 5E can be fun but it just holds people still, it is only when you combine it with disarming/shoving prone/area spells cast by your team casters like silence, that is really matters.

  16. - Top - End - #196
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    Grappling in 5E can be fun but it just holds people still, it is only when you combine it with disarming/shoving prone/area spells cast by your team casters like silence, that is really matters.
    Oh i know, but stil wondering how kobard has it anywhere near cheese. Nearest i can think of it arbitrary high numbers with Cancer Mage Festering Anger for a non magic dude who instead can simply gate in 5 Kraken in a round, return to a fast time trait plane, and 30 mins later adventure at full capacity.

  17. - Top - End - #197
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    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    I don't know what a Yamcha is, but it sounds disappointing.
    To be less millennially referential, my players are fine with picking a power level for the campaign and sticking with it. I've had problems with this only two times: one player was dealing with some out-of-game problems manifesting themselves as crappy behavior at the table, and one player had never played a Druid before and brought a very strong Greenbound Summoning-based character to a mostly T4 game. After the first session with the character he asked to make changes to bring it back in line with the rest of the party, felt it was still too strong after a subsequent session and turned it over to me to use as an NPC. I didn't have to get involved as a DM in either case; either the player self-policed or the group as a collective enforced the standard they were comfortable with.

  18. - Top - End - #198
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Oh i know, but stil wondering how kobard has it anywhere near cheese. Nearest i can think of it arbitrary high numbers with Cancer Mage Festering Anger for a non magic dude who instead can simply gate in 5 Kraken in a round, return to a fast time trait plane, and 30 mins later adventure at full capacity.
    It's the interactions with an almost guaranteed Grapple Success (usually a Barbarian with either Bard or Rogue dip for advantage and expertise), with the added possibility of using the Grappler feat to restrain the enemy. It becomes cheese when the party starts using "Bear Barbarian Grapples the enemy, then everyone else piles on damage" as the solution to every problem.

  19. - Top - End - #199
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by DKing9114 View Post
    It's the interactions with an almost guaranteed Grapple Success (usually a Barbarian with either Bard or Rogue dip for advantage and expertise), with the added possibility of using the Grappler feat to restrain the enemy. It becomes cheese when the party starts using "Bear Barbarian Grapples the enemy, then everyone else piles on damage" as the solution to every problem.
    That sounds like a great idea, in theory. Except, everyone piling on the one guy makes for a great aoe target.
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

  20. - Top - End - #200
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    yep. and big bads haveways of getting away. plus using grappler to restrain means you're also restrained, so it's as bad for the barb as for the enemy.

  21. - Top - End - #201
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    That sounds like a great idea, in theory. Except, everyone piling on the one guy makes for a great aoe target.
    Hence the Bear barbarian. Since encounters are often designed with a leader plus his minions, Bearbarian rages, grapples the leader, then the Barbarian's teammates drop a Fireball on the lot of them, followed by another AOE. Then everyone else closes in to melee range.

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    That sounds like a great idea, in theory. Except, everyone piling on the one guy makes for a great aoe target.
    Right, the solution to this isn't "this is cheese and should be removed". The solution is "the BBEG counters your predictable tactic". The boss should be dangerous for reasons other than HP and damage, and one thing that makes a boss dangerous is good tactics, including intelligence gathering.

    Most players are neither stupid or malicious. If you let them know ahead of time in gentle ways that their adversaries learn from their behavior and adapt accordingly, they'll take that into consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by DKing9114 View Post
    Hence the Bear barbarian. Since encounters are often designed with a leader plus his minions, Bearbarian rages, grapples the leader, then the Barbarian's teammates drop a Fireball on the lot of them, followed by another AOE. Then everyone else closes in to melee range.
    This seems to assume that: the Bearbarian and his teammates win initiative; the minions, lair powers or legendary actions do not provide meaningful obstacles; the leader is grapple-able; the positions of the leader and minions are known in advance. I'm not sure those things are going to be true more often than not, and if they are I'm not sure they should be.
    Last edited by QuickLyRaiNbow; 2017-12-06 at 03:29 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #203
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by DKing9114 View Post
    It's the interactions with an almost guaranteed Grapple Success (usually a Barbarian with either Bard or Rogue dip for advantage and expertise), with the added possibility of using the Grappler feat to restrain the enemy. It becomes cheese when the party starts using "Bear Barbarian Grapples the enemy, then everyone else piles on damage" as the solution to every problem.
    All it does it make them stay still, it does not make them take damage.
    Also if you do what most do and shove them as part of the plan, you used 2 things that could have been attacks to knock someone down and hold them still.
    It only helps those in melee range because it actually gives disadvantage to using ranged attacks agains the target.
    If all your group is piling up on that one guy to get advanagate on melee attacks that makes them sitting ducks for an aoe.
    Also, grappler is a trap option, it also makes the grappler restrained.


    It is much less broken than things like stunning fist, hold person, and the like. all those take is one spell or ability you get anyway.
    TO make a good grappler takes a whole build.

    I played a grappler for quite a while, it is good but honestly it would have been just as effective if I had just punched the guy instead.

  24. - Top - End - #204
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by DKing9114 View Post
    Hence the Bear barbarian. Since encounters are often designed with a leader plus his minions, Bearbarian rages, grapples the leader, then the Barbarian's teammates drop a Fireball on the lot of them, followed by another AOE. Then everyone else closes in to melee range.
    That's a pretty straightforward plan that depends a lot of battlefield and initiative. The barb, by himself, can do the grappling and tripping. The rest of melee have to sort of wait around until that happens.

    I'm not saying that grap-piles (tee hee) aren't effective, it's just it's not always applicable or even easy to pull off, and requires you to sort of build the grappler with certain things in mind.
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

  25. - Top - End - #205
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    All it does it make them stay still, it does not make them take damage.
    Also if you do what most do and shove them as part of the plan, you used 2 things that could have been attacks to knock someone down and hold them still.
    It only helps those in melee range because it actually gives disadvantage to using ranged attacks agains the target.
    If all your group is piling up on that one guy to get advanagate on melee attacks that makes them sitting ducks for an aoe.
    Also, grappler is a trap option, it also makes the grappler restrained.


    It is much less broken than things like stunning fist, hold person, and the like. all those take is one spell or ability you get anyway.
    TO make a good grappler takes a whole build.

    I played a grappler for quite a while, it is good but honestly it would have been just as effective if I had just punched the guy instead.
    To be honest, I think a human open hand monk is fairly viable now, because prodigy allows you to double expertise athletics without dipping. Then flurry of blows to trip "for free". That's not so bad.
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

  26. - Top - End - #206
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    To be honest, I think a human open hand monk is fairly viable now, because prodigy allows you to double expertise athletics without dipping. Then flurry of blows to trip "for free". That's not so bad.
    The open hand ability has nothing to do with athletics, it is just a save.

  27. - Top - End - #207
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    The open hand ability has nothing to do with athletics, it is just a save.
    Right, but the initial grapple will always be athletics, whether or not the trip comes before or after. Isn't the point of grapple / trip that the opponent can't get up?
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

  28. - Top - End - #208
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    I'm feeling ranty, so I'm just going to say that multi-classing is not "ruining" the game for me, and the only thing about "optimizing" that I dislike is other players hassling to do it (I don't want to play a Wizard dagnabbit!).

    What is getting tiresome however is that the game seems to be more and more just a conga-line of combat.

    I miss:

    "In the dim torchlight you see a 20' wide room with a broken chair, table, a closed chest and cobwebs leading into the darkness...."

    instead of just:

    "You see a Bugbear, roll initiative.... after a short rest you see a Hobgoblin, roll initiative... after a long rest you see an Ogre, roll iinitiative..."

    I'd like to do some (pretend) exploring again.

    Please.
    Grim specter of noogie hangs like shroud over us all


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  29. - Top - End - #209
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    probably best to find a better table for your expectations. Session zero. If you're playing with strangers, find out what kind of game it is first. no gaming is better than bad gaming.

  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I feel that this misses the point of the rest of my post, that it is the cheese therefore that is the problem, and not multiclassing per se.
    How am I missing the point if I agree? Cheese is the problem.

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