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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Mm, I think to an extent the issue of needing turns to power up is a self-correcting problem in a game where everybody's got Martial Arts. There's only a handful of Form Charms whose reflexive activation conditions can go off quickly and efficiently enough to deny the opponent the ability to reply in kind... Single Point most egregiously, Nightingale next most effectively, and sort of Snake, or possibly a Steel Devil with its capstone Charm. I imagine a lot of fights will start with a turn of each player assuming their chosen Form just as a natural result of the game mechanics.

    Asking players to give you time to activate longer buff sequences than just a single Form Charm, though... unless they have a similar need to spend time buffing (as, for instance, a Dreaming Pearl Courtesan might, given the need to ready weapons with Elegant Weapon Repertoire), you're asking them to give up advantage to you when there's not much they could do with an extra turn (except use Full Defense, Disengage, or social actions). It is within genre expectations for some characters to do so, and I'm sure that Jai, for instance, would give you all the time you want, but I wouldn't be comfortable asking everybody to commit to that.

    If you or anyone else feel like volunteering time to power-up to your opponent in-character, please feel free to go ahead, but I'm not going to guilt anyone for not doing so. Well, unless anyone interrupts Invoking the Chimera's Coils. Then I'll complain.

    (Before anyone points it out... yes, I know Invoking the Chimera's Coils doesn't consume the user's turn and can't really be "interrupted." Shhhhh...)


    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Then for the intimacy, would it work if I attempted to speculate that his aloofness stems from his beliefs about nobility/royalty?
    That's a fair speculation. Yeah, he definitely should have... let's say a Major Principle: "Royalty is sacred."
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by pfm1995 View Post
    I think that's a good idea, but not really born out by mechanics. Most 'buffs' seem to be either simple actions and last an entire scene (for example, Increasing Strength Exercise) or reflexive actions that last for a single attack/action (like our excellencies). I don't know that there's an example of a charm that you'd want to use during combat rather than using it before your match starts - then again, I'm new to 3e so I'm probably wrong.

    Of course, we can still stunt things as a power buildup.
    Yea, and I get that, but I'm also thinking of the classic 'I won't use my full strength until I know I have to with you'. Trope.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJBgzX2HMe8#t=18m27s

    Like that.

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    2e, at least, actually had that baked in by design since going full-out from the start was a horrible idea. I'm really curious to see if that still holds in 3e, though with Martial Art's lack of perfect defenses it may not hold for us.

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Tapping yourself out of motes should still be a potential issue even with the 5m-per-turn trickle charge. Even using a full Solar Excellency costs more than 5m (unless your base dice pool is only 5d10 to start with, which shouldn't be true of your combat abilities), so you're definitely not at full strength if you end up down to just the drip feed.

    The question is, can a person going all out end a one-on-one fight quickly enough to keep from having to worry about ending up on the drip-feed? It's my understanding that the top-tier Ex3 offensive builds generally can... the infamous "Indomitable Southpaw Empress" build for Solar Brawl, for instance, is well known for being able to one-shot Ahlat before he gets a chance to act, given average rolls for both the Empress and Ahlat... but Martial Arts doesn't contain those top-tier builds.

    Even if it did, anyone who goes all-in on a huge opening strike would still be in big trouble later on in more complex fights. Going back to Indomitable Southpaw Empress, she's got a glass jaw on defense and expends a ton of resources on her alpha strike. That build counts on striking first and striking hard and abandons all other considerations, burning through 46m and 7wp in a single turn. And on top of that, it could be derailed completely if it was up against a Solar with a flurry-breaker, like Leaping Dodge Method... all the Solar with Leaping Dodge Method would have to do would be to successfully defend against one of the melee attacks that the Empress makes with her enhanced Hammer on Iron Technique and then they'd be able to move out of the way of the rest.

    One final consideration I'll point out is that unlike in 2E, with its restrictive rules on Charm use, you can still defend freely on a turn in which you "power up" with a Simple Charm. If you use your own action to activate, say, Increasing Strength Exercise, you're still completely free to enhance your Dodges and Parries or use Resistance Charms or what have you with Charms if you get attacked that same turn.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    It does seem like there's less of an incentive to not just open up with one really big attack, though. There are... what, two perfect defenses in the game now? I think? And you can stack quite a bit of offense on one hit.
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    Default Moar dragonball references!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    It does seem like there's less of an incentive to not just open up with one really big attack, though. There are... what, two perfect defenses in the game now? I think? And you can stack quite a bit of offense on one hit.
    I guess it comes down to what kind of a martial-artist you are, and I use that term instead of 'Fighter'. Sorry, more Dragonball references incoming.

    The Objective-taker: Your Majin Buu types. You could let your opponents give you the best fight you could hope for, or you could just beat them and go, say, by turning them into candy and eating them, or, when challenged to kill all humans on earth and giving the Heroes time to regroup, use a single beam-burst to target and kill every single human on earth simultaneously.

    The sadist: Your Frieza/Freeza types. Allow your opponents to do everything they are capable of while doing the bare minimum to defend successfully, only to go full-power when they've expended their energy, their strength and their hope. You are convinced of your own superiority and have the power to back it up.

    The Pragmatist: Your Gohan, Piccolo, Future-Trunks types: You try and keep one step ahead of your enemies, figure out their weaknesses, exploit them as best as you are able, and take what opportunities you can. You don't mind powering up at the start, using dirty tactics or instant-win techniques, so long as you win when it is important to do so.

    The 'True fighting spirit' warriors: Your Goku/Tien/Perfect Cell types. You are here for the fight itself. You want to push your limits, and the only way to do that is to make sure your opponents (they're only enemies when they're attacking things you don't want them to) are pushing their own limits. You tend to be among the strongest fighters you know, and love a healthy rivalry. It takes a lot to push you over the edge, but when you do, you go all-out, and woe-betide anything in your way.

    I think we can all agree that some of the best climactic fights we've seen in media have been when two of the last category are opposing each other. It's also nice when we have a savvy-enough pragmatist vs. a conceited-enough sadist, but you need to build up the sadist first to make it a great story-beat.

    Really, my proposed informal agreement is just a tool to try and ensure a better story. I'm fine with characters getting one-shotted, provided that they have been suitably built up enough to warrant it being impressive from all sides. Doesn't matter how well-built a character's backstory is, how great their personality is, or how impressive and complex their fighting-style may be if they go up against 'Indomitable Southpaw Empress' and get sucker-punched into a very surprised Neverborn's sarcophagus-temple.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    It does seem like there's less of an incentive to not just open up with one really big attack, though. There are... what, two perfect defenses in the game now? I think? And you can stack quite a bit of offense on one hit.
    I feel like it's the multi-attack Charms that really skew things toward the big alpha strikes. Ex3 does prioritize offense, but most of the system also makes taking a hit easier to endure, so the first hit shouldn't end the fight... the entire Withering / Initiative Damage system is meant to encourage that, after all... BUT then you get to multi-attacks and things get... sketchier.

    Brawl and Melee can both generate simply silly numbers of attacks, benefitting from the Onslaught rules in the process, and Melee can even mix Withering and Decisive in the same sequence. Thankfully for our purposes, Martial Arts doesn't really get into that much.

    (Incidentally, I could find quotes on record from the devs in the time before Ex3 was released saying that multi-attacks in which each attack is rolled separately were a real problem in 2E, were bad for the game, and would not be found in 3rd Edition. Then the actual rules come out and...)

    EDIT: Ohh, I decided I needed to look up receipts after all. (Source)
    Spoiler: Dev Quotes
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    So mundane flurry and Iron Whirlwind style multiattacks are gone in EX3. (Holden)
    Q: Care to elaborate on this? (Prometheus878)
    A: You know that thing where you fall asleep waiting for Jim to roll out eight attacks, and then Steve to roll out five attacks, and then Juan Valdez and his magic donkey to roll out three attacks, so that you have to wait 16 attack resolutions to take your turn? That doesn't happen in EX3. (Unless you have 16 players, I guess.) (Holden)

    Q: Exalted 3E - What does multiple attacks look like now? (Mostlyjoe)
    A: Outside of rare and limited Charms, multi-attack rolls are gone from the system. They slowed us down way too much. (John Mørke)

    Q: I have to say, I'm a bit fretful that Extra Action attacks will still exist -- it seems like they're such a huge force multiplier that if they're available at all, they could become mandatory for alpha strikes, and setting them at a high power level creates the risk of an I(A)M-style high-water mark. I think the only way I could see this working is if they're intrinsically worse than a single attack for an appreciable number of alpha-striking scenarios: for instance, "can't attack the same target multiple times" is an example of that sort of extreme restriction presently. (Gayo)
    A: I have taken precautions to stop them from being force multipliers while still making them feel like multiple attacks. We didn't get rid of attack flurries just to speed up the bus, we did it because it was more effective than anything else. (John Mørke)

    Their statements are all... at least partially true... mundane flurries of multiple attacks are gone, multi-attack charms are fewer and further between, they do have limitations like having to divide Initiative among multiple Decisive attacks that are supposed to limit their effectiveness... and yet... most of them do still require multiple attack rolls (the model used in Steel Devil Style is the exception, not the rule), and the predicted problem of them being used in alpha-strike builds is absolutely present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Okay, can't get the rolling thing to work
    Did you try to edit the roll into the post? I was wrong when I briefly said earlier that you can do that (I think I was thinking of Myth-Weavers); you, in fact, can't. Your tags and coding looked good, so they ought to have worked if they were entered when the post was first made. Do remember that previewing a post breaks the tags, though; if you preview the post after entering roll tags, you'll then need to delete the resulting [roll0] and re-enter the proper tags before you submit the post.

    (4d10)[5][9][5][4](23) just to reassure myself the board roller's still working...
    Last edited by Ascension; 2017-12-07 at 12:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Moar dragonball references!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    I guess it comes down to what kind of a martial-artist you are, and I use that term instead of 'Fighter'. Sorry, more Dragonball references incoming.

    <snip>
    Man, I have got to get you all to watch Kung Fu Hustle or something...

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    Default Re: Moar dragonball references!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by pfm1995 View Post
    Man, I have got to get you all to watch Kung Fu Hustle or something...
    I'm more of a Five Deadly Venoms guy, myself. DVDs of martial arts movies tend to be my impulse-buy of choice, though, so I'm frankly swimming in genre movies of widely varying quality.
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    Default Re: A suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    This might be a little early as we havn't gotten to combat yet, but I'd like to take the group's pulse on an issue real quick.

    As we're basing the thematics of our game on shounin anime and similar genres, a classic trope is the power/skill buildup. While it's often derided and makes no sense in pitched battles, characters squaring off against each other often will allow their opponents to power-up or prepare themselves in some manner, either because they 'want to see their true potential' or because said power-up is so amazing that they are frozen with fear/awe/respect. In Exalted an Exalt (or Exigent these days) powering up is assumed to have such an effect on anybody who did not anticipate it. A terrestrial's anima will cause mere mortals to pause, a celestial's anima will make a terrestrial flinch, etc. In this scenario, we have celestial Exalts against celestial Exalts, so our Animas might be impressive, but will not blow each other away (barring caste bonuses or other effects). As such, I'd like to ask for an informal agreement that if you are facing someone who is taking a turn to use a Simple Charm essential to their style, or some similar circumstance, you allow them a moment to do so, within reason.

    Exceptions I can think of are in-character justifications. If your whole shtick is that you strike before your opponent has a chance to react, that makes total sense, and there are many moments in our inspiration media where just such events occur. If you are the type to attack while your opponent is in mid-'power-up-montage', make sure you can justify it as 'it's what my character would do', not as 'It was the most tactically viable move I, as a player, could make OOC' and be ready to deal with IC consequences, such as being ridiculed by onlookers for making a 'cheap shot'.

    Full disclosure, I can think of multiple circumstances in which Brown Leaf could benefit from having a round or two where she is unmolested to use simple charms to gain a tactical advantage. I ask for this informal agreement not because I want that edge, but because I don't want anyone to get eliminated before they've had a chance to show their stuff. If Ascension agrees with the sentiment and would like to make an in-character justification for this, I'd be delighted, but I'm also okay with it being an informal OOC agreement that we individually justify in-character as we see fit. If we decide against this in part or in its entirety, I can cope.
    So... should probably comment on this since it's the group's consensus.

    I'm... not opposed to this, I think. I'm not sure what you're asking us to do though. Not go for attacks when you use a simple charm? *hums* Matter of opinion I guess, but I feel most of the simple charms are strong enough to make them as valuable as a regular attack. And outside of his form, IDK if I've really got an equivalent 'spend a round growing stronger' ability for Wic. Perhaps aim? IDK though, that feels tame compared to charms. *hums*

    Well, I guess the principle behind it is letting everyone show their stuff, don't go for OHKOs. Which I agree with.

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    It looks like most of the straight-up OHKO stuff (or one turn knockout, at least) is Brawl (and maybe Archery?), so hopefully we don't have to worry about that as much in general. Martial Arts seems to be a little more well-rounded.
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    FWIW, it was just clarified by the devs that landing a Decisive first turn after Aiming as part of Join Battle via Cloud of Ebon Devils would fulfill Righteous Devil Form's reflexive activation condition, so that's a fifth Martial Art whose Form Charm could be reflexively activated first turn (though like all the rest, it requires succeeding on at least one roll to do so). I still think Martial Arts in general is "slow" enough that we shouldn't have a problem with OHKOs.

    (Well, first turn OHKOs. A number of MAs can potentially boost the damage of Decisive attacks to frightening levels, but they need enough setup time for those that they won't go off first turn.)

    Incidentally, another tidbit from the Ask the Devs thread is that the Immaculate Dragon styles go all the way to Essence 5, which should be neat to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    It looks like most of the straight-up OHKO stuff (or one turn knockout, at least) is Brawl (and maybe Archery?), so hopefully we don't have to worry about that as much in general. Martial Arts seems to be a little more well-rounded.
    Melee can do it too, and Thrown can reflexively Decisive attack off Join Battle, but prooooobably wouldn't be able to do lethal damage while doing so.

    EDIT: IC post coming, BTW.
    Last edited by Ascension; 2017-12-07 at 08:15 PM.
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    Default Re: A suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector Valin View Post
    So... should probably comment on this since it's the group's consensus.

    I'm... not opposed to this, I think. I'm not sure what you're asking us to do though. Not go for attacks when you use a simple charm? *hums* Matter of opinion I guess, but I feel most of the simple charms are strong enough to make them as valuable as a regular attack. And outside of his form, IDK if I've really got an equivalent 'spend a round growing stronger' ability for Wic. Perhaps aim? IDK though, that feels tame compared to charms. *hums*

    Well, I guess the principle behind it is letting everyone show their stuff, don't go for OHKOs. Which I agree with.
    Not quite 'gimmie a sec so I can power up' more 'don't metagame and go for optimal plays if it's not your character's style.' If your opponent backs off from an intense fight to talk, asks for a pause in the fighting, or some-such, respect their place in the narrative.

    It could be they want to remove weighted clothing, it could be they say 'If I only had time to access my full power, THEN you'd never beat me' and your character would go 'Huh, I wanna see them at full power' then you'd probably pause. If, however, you are the type to hear 'If I only had time to access my full power, THEN you'd never beat me' and go for a win because you're thinking 'Yea, if you get to full power I'll never beat you, so I'm gonna knock you out before you can!' then obviously go for it.

    I just know that the point of this game, PvP though it is, is to make a fun and engaging story for everyone, so my proposed agreement is simply to prevent OOC knowledge or power-gaming to ruin a good narrative.

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Oh my. Ivory Knife and Tuoni in round one, eh...
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Oh my. Ivory Knife and Tuoni in round one, eh...
    Go get 'em champ!

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Oh my indeed.

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Sooooomebody had to go first, and with Confrog still busy with finals I had fewer choices...

    Unless you'd rather have seen an NPC vs. NPC opener?

    Anyway, I believe in y'all! Ganbatte!
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Is this still the same scene, by the way? I'm assuming you'll let us know when we should count it as being a scene transition.
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    You're asking because of Harmonious Presence Meditation, I assume? Mm... in terms of time and place, you're staying in the same location and little time is passing between the end of the introductions and the start of the fight, but narratively speaking, we're transitioning into a new scene...

    Tell you what, I'll judge it this way. If you want to, I'll let you commit the additional 2m that's the cost differential between the scenelong and indefinite versions of HPM in order to extend it so that it stays active through the fight. Otherwise, it'll lapse, since you made the commitment for a scene of social interaction with the other fighters before the tournament, not for a scene of combat. Committing the 2m would be an extra cost, but would still be a significant savings over letting it lapse and then reactivating it mid-fight.

    I'd say it's safe to assume that we're in a new "scene" for any scenelong effects whenever we transition into or out of a fight during this tournament.
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    You're asking because of Harmonious Presence Meditation, I assume? Mm... in terms of time and place, you're staying in the same location and little time is passing between the end of the introductions and the start of the fight, but narratively speaking, we're transitioning into a new scene...

    Tell you what, I'll judge it this way. If you want to, I'll let you commit the additional 2m that's the cost differential between the scenelong and indefinite versions of HPM in order to extend it so that it stays active through the fight. Otherwise, it'll lapse, since you made the commitment for a scene of social interaction with the other fighters before the tournament, not for a scene of combat. Committing the 2m would be an extra cost, but would still be a significant savings over letting it lapse and then reactivating it mid-fight.

    I'd say it's safe to assume that we're in a new "scene" for any scenelong effects whenever we transition into or out of a fight during this tournament.
    Hmm, I'll just commit the two motes, then, and thank you for the option.

    Also, Ancient Tongue Understanding, eh? "Loses her ability to comprehend any other language." I never realized how wickedly clever that charm is!
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Soooooome social action is still possible through body language (most likely rolled through Appearance, unless you gave me a helluva good stunt for another Attribute) and Charms, but that's definitely clever. And Kokage's benediction gives a solid narrative excuse reason for it... Clever indeed.
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    Soooooome social action is still possible through body language (most likely rolled through Appearance, unless you gave me a helluva good stunt for another Attribute) and Charms, but that's definitely clever. And Kokage's benediction gives a solid narrative excuse reason for it... Clever indeed.
    Hmm. Perform should still work, for the most part.

    EDIT: Although the question occurs if Ivory Knife will even realize that Tuoni turned off his other languages, hah. I imagine once she starts talking it should be obvious that he's not really registering? Otherwise this is going to be pretty comical.
    Last edited by Eurus; 2017-12-08 at 12:12 AM.
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    EDIT: Although the question occurs if Ivory Knife will even realize that Tuoni turned off his other languages, hah. I imagine once she starts talking it should be obvious that he's not really registering? Otherwise this is going to be pretty comical.
    I'd say it's fair to figure out that your message isn't getting through when you start trying to talk to someone. If I wanted to play hardball I might kludge in a Reflexive, err, Read Intentions or something if the other party was trying not to let on that they don't understand you, but I think the general spirit of system transparency should be enough to communicate "this action failed because they didn't understand you" after you try and fail to talk to somebody who doesn't share a language with you.
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Damn, both combatants are online, as is the ST, so this could get rapid-paced quickly! Who will be triumphant in the first round? The demure Ivory Knife, or the mysterious Tuoni? Find out with the next posting of 'The Lotus Blossoms: An Exalted Adventure!'

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Damn, both combatants are online, as is the ST, so this could get rapid-paced quickly! Who will be triumphant in the first round? The demure Ivory Knife, or the mysterious Tuoni? Find out with the next posting of 'The Lotus Blossoms: An Exalted Adventure!'
    I wouldn't expect too much out of Ivory Knife if I were you.
    Avatar by araveugnitsuga.

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    I wouldn't expect too much out of Ivory Knife if I were you.
    I'm so pumped for this I cannot even express it. Can't imagine how excited I'll be when Brown Leaf gets her turn in the ring.

    Okay, I'm seriously going to bed instead of just refreshing my subscriptions over and over. Good Night Ya'll.

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Also, Ancient Tongue Understanding, eh? "Loses her ability to comprehend any other language." I never realized how wickedly clever that charm is!
    It's not a bug, it's a feature! I actually had an entirely different plan for how to deal with Talk-fu, but it relied on having some prep-time before the fight so going first kinda put paid to that. It wasn't until I was checking to see if I had the cost of Ancient Tongue Understanding right that I had the 'Eureka' moment.

    I'm also still trying to get a feel for how experienced our exalts should be - I figured it was reasonable for Tuoni to know that magical social manipulation exists even though we haven't seen it overtly in the story yet. You know what? Nevermind this; I have a more interesting way to play it.

    @Eurus - Any walk-on music you'd like to be playing?
    Last edited by pfm1995; 2017-12-08 at 01:52 PM.

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Good question, I didn't think about Ivory Knife's theme/fight music. Hmm...

    EDIT: Cough. It's stuck in my head now, too late.
    Last edited by Eurus; 2017-12-08 at 05:12 PM.
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Good music choice, but that’s more of a mid-battle theme, wouldn’t you say? Sounds like it’s time for a join-battle roll!

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Good music choice, but that’s more of a mid-battle theme, wouldn’t you say? Sounds like it’s time for a join-battle roll!
    I was assuming Ascension would make some kind of "threetwooneGO" post.
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