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    Default Balancing the Favored Soul

    So looking skimming the Unearthed Arcana, the only thing that scream BAH-ROKEN! out to me is the Favored Soul sorcerer origin. Any balancing tips or trick from the playground to keep the awesomeness but reign in the ridiculousness of have two complete spell lists to draw from?

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    It's balanced by the fact that even with two spell lists you still only get 15 spells in your entire career if you make it to level 20. At level ten its soothing like 10 spells. Nothing screams broken about that to me. Bard gets 28 spells with magical secrets and 6 are from any spell list allowing half caster spell shenanigans. Favored skill seems fine

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by clash View Post
    It's balanced by the fact that even with two spell lists you still only get 15 spells in your entire career if you make it to level 20.
    This-- the Cleric list is another full casting one, so it's not like you're getting unique stuff early, like a Lore Bard. There aren't any really unique effects, and the Sorcerer's spell selection is narrow enough that the added buffing/healing/divination stuff will have much effect.

    Also note that this particular version of the Favored Soul was officially published in Xanathar's as the Divine Soul-- it loses Supernatural Resilience and trades Blessed Countenance out for boosting healing and Divine Purity for wings.
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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Sivarias View Post
    So looking skimming the Unearthed Arcana, the only thing that scream BAH-ROKEN! out to me is the Favored Soul sorcerer origin.

    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Also note that this particular version of the Favored Soul was officially published in Xanathar's as the Divine Soul-- it loses Supernatural Resilience and trades Blessed Countenance out for boosting healing and Divine Purity for wings.
    This is actually the second iteration of the Favored Soul presented in Unearthed Arcana.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    If it powerful, sure
    Is it broken, no.

    The number of spells known is a huge limit.

    I will say though, the idea that they grow wings and fly at the same level that draconic grow wings and fly, and storm also get a great fly ability.

    Sorcerer seems very fly centered and they should have given them a different ability at that level.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Don't let it multi-class.

    If it splashes a level for medium or heavy armor proficiency it becomes insanely powerful.

    Constitution saves, heavy/medium armor and spirit guardians is OP AF.
    "What most people tend to forget is that statistically speaking, 50% of people out there have below average intelligence."

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Jsketchy View Post
    This is actually the second iteration of the Favored Soul presented in Unearthed Arcana.

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    I know; the development reached its nadir with the official published version, though. (I mean, I still like the medium armor + extra attack in the original, because that made an awesome gish, but it was definitely not okay)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    Don't let it multi-class.

    If it splashes a level for medium or heavy armor proficiency it becomes insanely powerful.

    Constitution saves, heavy/medium armor and spirit guardians is OP AF.
    Spirit Guardians, heavy armor... why does that sound familiar... hmmm... there must be some reason... I just can't think of it...

    (The Sorcerer doesn't break by getting one more blasting spell, particularly not if it's competing with Haste.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    I know; the development reached its nadir with the official published version, though. (I mean, I still like the medium armor + extra attack in the original, because that made an awesome gish, but it was definitely not okay)


    Spirit Guardians, heavy armor... why does that sound familiar... hmmm... there must be some reason... I just can't think of it...

    (The Sorcerer doesn't break by getting one more blasting spell, particularly not if it's competing with Haste.
    There will never be a sorcerer subclass that gets extra attack, you can let that dream go.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    Don't let it multi-class.

    If it splashes a level for medium or heavy armor proficiency it becomes insanely powerful.

    Constitution saves, heavy/medium armor and spirit guardians is OP AF.
    I don't understand how Spirit Guardians makes it OP. It's a concentration effect, so it doesn't work with Haste.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    By Balance... Do you mean how to buff it?

    Since it's pretty weak

    It's a niche option, with a ton of insanely situational options that is heavily gated with the limited number of spells known, subpar features, and the pathetically weak sorcerer chassis.

    It has a few extremely minor interactions with Twinning and Heighten, but the only ones that matter that Sorcerer couldn't already do is literally Contagion and Geas...
    Which isn't enough to make it good.

    You're still a terrible healer, you gain no significant control spells, you gain no significant nuke spells.

    Oh, and the level 6 feature is 100% garbage that shouldn't even be a feature.
    It's not even a flavorful or fluffy feature, it's basically an Errata for Empower

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    Don't let it multi-class.

    If it splashes a level for medium or heavy armor proficiency it becomes insanely powerful.

    Constitution saves, heavy/medium armor and spirit guardians is OP AF.
    So you're saying Clerics who aren't stupid and get Resilient Feat are the most broken thing in the game?

    Since they do it better than a Splashed Divine Soul Sorcerer who still has d6 dice, limited spells, and no rituals.
    Among other weaknesses.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    So you're saying Clerics who aren't stupid and get Resilient Feat are the most broken thing in the game?

    Since they do it better than a Splashed Divine Soul Sorcerer who still has d6 dice, limited spells, and no rituals.
    Among other weaknesses.
    They don't get to combine it with empowered spell and fireball
    "What most people tend to forget is that statistically speaking, 50% of people out there have below average intelligence."

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    By Balance... Do you mean how to buff it?

    Since it's pretty weak

    It's a niche option, with a ton of insanely situational options that is heavily gated with the limited number of spells known, subpar features, and the pathetically weak sorcerer chassis.

    It has a few extremely minor interactions with Twinning and Heighten, but the only ones that matter that Sorcerer couldn't already do is literally Contagion and Geas...
    Which isn't enough to make it good.

    You're still a terrible healer, you gain no significant control spells, you gain no significant nuke spells.

    Oh, and the level 6 feature is 100% garbage that shouldn't even be a feature.
    It's not even a flavorful or fluffy feature, it's basically an Errata for Empower
    Besides the d6 Hit Die, the Sorcerer chassis is incredibly powerful. Font of Magic and Metamagic are great if used by a creative player. And talking about the Favored Soul specifically, Favored by the Gods is incredibly handy and efficient from an action economy perspective.

    You seem to be thinking of Xanathar's Divine Soul or the last UA incarnation of Favored Soul though. The Favored Soul on topic is the 2nd incarnation of it, whose 6th level feature is Expertise to any Charisma-based skills you have proficiency in.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    They don't get to combine it with empowered spell and fireball
    Ah yes, the Ancient Chinese Secret of combining Spirit Guardian with Fireball

    You know...
    When you run up to the center of the monsters with Spirit Guardian up...
    THEN FIREBALL THE CENTER OF THE MONSTERS... oh wait

    EMPOWER SPIRIT GUARDIANS?! We are talking about next level plays now!
    Nothing better than spending a Sorcery Point to reroll 3d8s
    Over the duration of a Spirit Guardian fight, we are talking about potentially rerolling a dozen 3d8s!

    There is no combo here

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Besides the d6 Hit Die, the Sorcerer chassis is incredibly powerful. Font of Magic and Metamagic are great if used by a creative player. And talking about the Favored Soul specifically, Favored by the Gods is incredibly handy and efficient from an action economy perspective.

    You seem to be thinking of Xanathar's Divine Soul or the last UA incarnation of Favored Soul though. The Favored Soul on topic is the 2nd incarnation of it, whose 6th level feature is Expertise to any Charisma-based skills you have proficiency in.
    I see metamagic as an extremely fancy tool, that looks like it is godly useful, but rarely actually is...
    It's a very situational thing.

    Altho yea, I am speaking of Xanathars DS. Weird that the topic isn't...
    If he wants to nerf that one, just change it to 1 Expertise in a Charisma based skill

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    They don't get to combine it with empowered spell and fireball
    I think you are going to have to explain your position because I am not seeing the big deal here and I do not think others here are either. So far I see stuff that is ok but not all that exciting where I would think a ban on multiclassing to get heavy armor. Heavy armor is a great thing to have but not something that makes me immediately want to start throwing the ban hammer.
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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    They don't get to combine it with empowered spell and fireball
    Empowering d8s boosts the average by about 1 point, which is hardly anything. And as for Fireball... Two words, mate: Light Cleric.
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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    I see metamagic as an extremely fancy tool, that looks like it is godly useful, but rarely actually is...
    It's a very situational thing.

    Altho yea, I am speaking of Xanathars DS. Weird that the topic isn't...
    If he wants to nerf that one, just change it to 1 Expertise in a Charisma based skill
    His balance concerns are centered around Divine Magic, which gives access to Cleric spells on top of Sorcerer spells.

    As far as the situational nature of Metamagic, the trick is you have to know how to create the situations in which your Metamagic choices are useful, or to build around it such that they're useful no matter what. Quickened Haste on a gish, Twinned Polymorph, Heightened Hold Person + Action Surge Empowered Disintegrate, Careful Hypnotic Pattern, Extended Foresight, Distant Vampiric Touch...

    Some of the things I said above require multiclassing to pull off, but that just goes to show everyone else wants Metamagic, too.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    His balance concerns are centered around Divine Magic, which gives access to Cleric spells on top of Sorcerer spells.

    As far as the situational nature of Metamagic, the trick is you have to know how to create the situations in which your Metamagic choices are useful, or to build around it such that they're useful no matter what. Quickened Haste on a gish, Twinned Polymorph, Heightened Hold Person + Action Surge Empowered Disintegrate, Careful Hypnotic Pattern, Extended Foresight, Distant Vampiric Touch...

    Some of the things I said above require multiclassing to pull off, but that just goes to show everyone else wants Metamagic, too.
    Quickened Haste on a gish, Should have said Twinning Haste
    Twinned Polymorph, Twinned Single Target Buffs is pretty common, let's just say Twinned Single Target Buffs
    Heightened Hold Person + Action Surge Empowered Disintegrate, You know you have allies... You don't need to burn all your resources for a bit of nova
    Careful Hypnotic Pattern, Why not heighten so it actually works? but Heightened Debuff is pretty common, let's just say Heightened debuffs
    Extended Foresight, Why not Twin?
    Distant Vampiric Touch, Doesn't work, ranged self.

    Altho this isn't much of an argument from my point, so let me actually get one out.

    I didn't mean to say that Metamagic isn't useful
    My point was that too many people place an emphasis on the 'potential' of broken combos when combined with metamagics
    They focus on that 'potential' so much that they inflate and inflate how good it actually is
    Then we get people thinking that the Metamagics are just brokenly powerful
    When in actual play they present you with a fairly decent tool, but nothing really exaggerated

    Basically the bark is loud, but the bite is soft

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    Quickened Haste on a gish, Should have said Twinning Haste
    Twinned Polymorph, Twinned Single Target Buffs is pretty common, let's just say Twinned Single Target Buffs
    Heightened Hold Person + Action Surge Empowered Disintegrate, You know you have allies... You don't need to burn all your resources for a bit of nova
    Careful Hypnotic Pattern, Why not heighten so it actually works? but Heightened Debuff is pretty common, let's just say Heightened debuffs
    Extended Foresight, Why not Twin?
    Distant Vampiric Touch, Doesn't work, ranged self.
    Let me just address these things specifically.

    Quickened Haste lets a gish take three attacks on the same turn, instead of the 1-turn setup of Twinning Haste. In other words, Twinned Haste loses you 3 attacks, while giving you +2 attacks per round thereafter. So thinking about it in "ROI" terms, Twinned Haste becomes superior to Quickened Haste if and only if the fight does not end in two rounds after your casting.

    Twinned Polymorph is a jewel among the twinned buffs for the THP. Making it into a generic "Twinned Single Target buff" devalues this.

    Heightened Hold Person + Action Surge Empowered Disintegrate is not only a good nova. It is an insurance that your Disintegrate spell takes effect. To say "you have allies" is to imply "you don't need to deal damage." Disintegrate is a 1/day spell and it sucks if it misses. It's also entirely possible that your allies won't be able to kill the monster, but Disintegrate + your allies' attacks will.

    Hypnotic Pattern is an AoE attack which hits your allies in melee. Heightened will give disadvantage to one creature only, whereas Careful Hypnotic Pattern will let you cast the spell in melee. You can, in fact, spam this combination round per round, ensuring a "stun-lock" effect on your enemies.

    Twinned Foresight is impossible because Foresight is not on the Cleric's or Sorcerer's spell list. But more importantly, Extended Foresight is the only way you can have a 9th level buff up while still having a 9th level spell slot ready to use. Just cast Extended Foresight on someone before taking a long rest, then sleep and recover that long rest. When you wake, Foresight still has 8 hours left on the clock, and you still have your 9th level spell slot.

    You are correct about Distant Vampiric Touch. Then allow me to replace that spell with Distant Plane Shift or Distant Contagion.

    ---

    All in all, the way you approached this topic seems, to me, a simplistic view of Metamagic. You will miss many nuances of this feature if you try to "dumb it down" by casting blanket statements like "Twinned Single Target Buffs" and you will, therefore, fail to appreciate its many uses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    I didn't mean to say that Metamagic isn't useful
    My point was that too many people place an emphasis on the 'potential' of broken combos when combined with metamagics
    They focus on that 'potential' so much that they inflate and inflate how good it actually is
    Then we get people thinking that the Metamagics are just brokenly powerful
    When in actual play they present you with a fairly decent tool, but nothing really exaggerated

    Basically the bark is loud, but the bite is soft
    It's not broken, but it is above the power curve. The bite is most definitely vicious, not soft.

    In regard to your statement that people over-inflate its power, well, that's not good and I agree with you there. But you're underselling it, and that's also not good.
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2017-12-06 at 01:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    To me, the lack of an AC boost and the lv. 6 effect are the only truly bad things about the DS. True you can healing spells, but do you really want to end up hoping the spell tax of Mage Armor is enough to justify the loss of one of your few precious spells known as well as hope you can survive a round just to cast Cur Wounds to undo some of the damage you took and have to rely on a bonus action attack spell or quicken a cantrip just to be able to attack the turn you're forced to heal.

    As for Empowered Healing, I'd rather it be a fixed boost to healing such as adding double your spellcasting modifier or perhaps add one die to the roll for the healing spell of not some other form of healing like the healing dice pool Celestial Warlocks have.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Oh yes, and how can I forget to add? Subtle Counterspell. No mage can stand up to the Sorcerer in a 1v1 duel as they simply Counterspell their opponent's spells with impunity. Even the Abjuration Wizard can't stand against this since none of their spells can be subtled, their normal spells or their Counterspells.

    That is to say, Metamagic is not broken, but is very powerful.
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2017-12-06 at 01:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    Don't let it multi-class.

    If it splashes a level for medium or heavy armor proficiency it becomes insanely powerful.

    Constitution saves, heavy/medium armor and spirit guardians is OP AF.
    What?

    A life or war cleric with resilient Con gets all that and more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    What?

    A life or war cleric with resilient Con gets all that and more.
    Pretty sure that he thinks that you can quicken fireball and cast spirit guardians on the same turn or something. Can't see how else you can combine fireball with spirit guardians in a good way. And just for the record i'm aware that you can't do that.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Oh yes, and how can I forget to add? Subtle Counterspell. No mage can stand up to the Sorcerer in a 1v1 duel as they simply Counterspell their opponent's spells with impunity. Even the Abjuration Wizard can't stand against this since none of their spells can be subtled, their normal spells or their Counterspells.

    That is to say, Metamagic is not broken, but is very powerful.
    If you want to avoid having your spells counterspelled, simply stand 61' away, or cast them invisible or in darkness.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    If you want to avoid having your spells counterspelled, simply stand 61' away, or cast them invisible or in darkness.
    Good points on all counts. But are you implying any of the following?

    1. You should always accept that 60ft range spells can/will be countered
    2. It is easy to remain 61 feet away or more from a Counterspeller
    3. Invisibility is impenetrable
    4. Invisibility itself cannot be Counterspelled
    5. Darkness is impenetrable
    6. It is not useful to cast short range spells such as Fear, Phantasmal Force, or Suggestion

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Good points on all counts. But are you implying any of the following?

    1. You should always accept that 60ft range spells can/will be countered
    2. It is easy to remain 61 feet away or more from a Counterspeller
    3. Invisibility is impenetrable
    4. Invisibility itself cannot be Counterspelled
    5. Darkness is impenetrable
    6. It is not useful to cast short range spells such as Fear, Phantasmal Force, or Suggestion
    Slow is pretty good spell to use in a duel against a sorcerer they don't have proficency in wisdom saving throws it has 120 ft range so you can cast it outside of counterspell range. They can't counterspell anymore their speed is halved 50% of their spells need two turns to go off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Good points on all counts. But are you implying any of the following?

    1. You should always accept that 60ft range spells can/will be countered
    2. It is easy to remain 61 feet away or more from a Counterspeller
    3. Invisibility is impenetrable
    4. Invisibility itself cannot be Counterspelled
    5. Darkness is impenetrable
    6. It is not useful to cast short range spells such as Fear, Phantasmal Force, or Suggestion
    For sure man. There comes times when subtle spell works.

    But if you're really worried about counterspelling just move back more than 60' away from any potential counterspeller, or simply take total cover.

    I dont see subtle spell used that much IMG. Its certainly not the first MM sorcs reach for. Generally Quicken, Twin, Extend and Heighten are the faves.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Galactkaktus View Post
    Slow is pretty good spell to use in a duel against a sorcerer they don't have proficency in wisdom saving throws it has 120 ft range so you can cast it outside of counterspell range. They can't counterspell anymore their speed is halved 50% of their spells need two turns to go off.
    I concede that Slow is effective against them, but if the caster was 120ft away, then they cannot prevent the Sorcerer from using Quicken Dispel Magic, which is not affected by Slow as it becomes a bonus action spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    For sure man. There comes times when subtle spell works.

    But if you're really worried about counterspelling just move back more than 60' away from any potential counterspeller, or simply take total cover.

    I dont see subtle spell used that much IMG. Its certainly not the first MM sorcs reach for. Generally Quicken, Twin, Extend and Heighten are the faves.
    Agreed that Subtle isn't usually the first choice, it needs more love. It's more useful for antimage builds or manipulator builds.

    The point, though, is that I'm not worried about being Counterspelled. My spells will go off in the presence of a Counterspeller because they will be Subtled. Meanwhile, the Counterspeller's spells will not go off because they cannot counter my Subtle Counterspell.

    EDIT: Really? Extended Spell? Why that one?
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2017-12-06 at 04:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    I concede that Slow is effective against them, but if the caster was 120ft away, then they cannot prevent the Sorcerer from using Quicken Dispel Magic, which is not affected by Slow as it becomes a bonus action spell.
    I cast slow just outside the sorcerers counterspell range get as close as possible with my movement. Now you can't quicken dispel magic without it being counterspelled since you can't use subtle magic on it anymore. And if you do it as an action there is a 50% chance that it won't go off untill your next turn. If that happens i get one turn where i can do whatever i want without worrying about counterspells, which should be enough. And if we are talking level 11+ i think contingency spells should be uncounterable as well since they don't use any components when they are cast greater invisibility seems great.

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    Default Re: Balancing the Favored Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Galactkaktus View Post
    I cast slow just outside the sorcerers counterspell range get as close as possible with my movement. Now you can't quicken dispel magic without it being counterspelled since you can't use subtle magic on it anymore. And if you do it as an action there is a 50% chance that it won't go off untill your next turn. If that happens i get one turn where i can do whatever i want without worrying about counterspells, which should be enough. And if we are talking level 11+ i think contingency spells should be uncounterable as well since they don't use any components when they are cast greater invisibility seems great.
    I shall choose to engage in this discussion, but I'd like to make it explicit we're tilting things in favor of one side. Let's assume the following:

    1. The opponents start 65ft away from each other (as close as possible on a grid)
    2. The non-Sorcerer goes first
    3. The Sorcerer fails their saving throw against Slow

    The optimal strategy against the Sorcerer after those three things is for the non-Sorcerer to walk 30ft up to them, so they're 35ft away.

    Now, the Sorcerer can only move 15ft (separating them by 50ft at most) and cannot leave the non-Sorc's Counterspell range... unless they Dash and move a further 15ft, getting 65ft away. Having used their movement and action, they can use their Quickened Dispel Magic (bonus action) and suddenly be free of Slow.

    As such, their speed no longer gets halved. They regain their original speed, recover their unspent movement, and may move another 30ft. At this point, they can get closer and become within 35ft of the non-Sorc.

    Then it's the non-Sorc's turn. Let's say they move 30ft away (now 65ft away), cast Slow again, and the Sorc auto-fails their Wis save due to lacking proficiency in the save. That's fine. Now, they have moved their full movement and used their action.

    Come around to the Sorc's turn, they cast Quickened Dispel Magic with their bonus action, move 30ft, and Dash for another 30ft. Now they are in melee. The non-Sorc cannot move outside the Sorc's Counterspell range without being chased or followed.

    --

    As for Contingency, you're correct. It's not subject to Counterspell. It is subject to See Invisibility, though.
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2017-12-06 at 04:33 AM.

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