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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Then I want to actually give the survivor mode a try, and attempt to record an LP of it. Seeing that I've been watching LPs from several of you, only fair I try it to give you something to laugh at. And since I never played survivor mode, it'll be interesting to have to keep track of food/water/sleep. The first two shouldn't be hard. food is plentiful. Sleep though...
    It's a lot easier than it sounds, you'll have no problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Thinking of starting a playthru as a robotics specialist. The problem is that I have to be a hell of a fighter to get far enough to build robots that can fight for me.
    Level 15 really to get started, heck, you can have that before finishing lexington

    Double gattling laser suped-up sentry bots really aren't needed (but they're sure fun).
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  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    It's a lot easier than it sounds, you'll have no problem.



    Level 15 really to get started, heck, you can have that before finishing lexington

    Double gattling laser suped-up sentry bots really aren't needed (but they're sure fun).
    I was going with Codsworth, still hovering, but with one unstable explosive gatlin gun and one something else.

    Also, lesson learned from last time:
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  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    That's really, really weird. I've never seen that bug. Has anyone else?

    Don't even need to be that great of a fighter for that matter. Get to level 15, and Ada can actually eventually win that fight on her own. Then you can mod Codsworth without any combat effort.
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  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    That's really, really weird. I've never seen that bug. Has anyone else?

    Don't even need to be that great of a fighter for that matter. Get to level 15, and Ada can actually eventually win that fight on her own. Then you can mod Codsworth without any combat effort.

    That would be an interesting playthrough...a non-fighter. Not sure how you would get to level 15 without fighting (besides building Sanctuary up). I suppose that putting strength 3, agility 2, perception 2 kind of thing would help lower your combat effectiveness and force you to REALLY be careful with the fights you do get into....my guess is explosives would become your best friend.
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  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    That's really, really weird. I've never seen that bug. Has anyone else?
    It's very common. It was supposedly caused by Point Lookout Far Harbor and only affect robots traveling between the mainland and there, but "spread"; I had it happen on 5 different robots last time. The "good" thing about it though is if you tell the protectron to self destruct (instead of having to re-invest all new crafting materials to rebuild it) the connection is still there; in fact you cannot assign another trader to those routes because the game won't recognize the robot isn't there anymore.
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2018-02-12 at 05:11 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Ah. I never had one running to Far Harbor. So I guess it's no issue for me.

    I think FadingSignal's remote explosives would be absurdly handy. I can't really call it fighting, and it'd only be effective against groups you can lure, but...
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  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    It's very common. It was supposedly caused by Point Lookout Far Harbor and only affect robots traveling between the mainland and there, but "spread"; I had it happen on 5 different robots last time. The "good" thing about it though is if you tell the protectron to self destruct (instead of having to re-invest all new crafting materials to rebuild it) the connection is still there; in fact you cannot assign another trader to those routes because the game won't recognize the robot isn't there anymore.
    I think I'm confused, if the route remains is there a problem?
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  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    I think that both Fallout and the Elder Scrolls' system have their own pros and cons, and problems that arise because of how experience is gained.

    The Elder Scrolls method of "learn by doing" is a good system, on paper. If implemented properly, it results in a system where a character organically grows over the course of their run. Chadwick, as befits a Nord, is a master of heavy armor, block, speech, and one-handed, with a middling skill in Alteration and Restoration. He really feels like he came into this power normally, by working at it and through consistent use

    The first problem with learn by doing leveling, though, is when the skill gain is implemented poorly, for the wrong actions, or too slowly. The crafting skills are an example of all three of these, unfortunately. It's very difficult to get smithing, enchanting, or alchemy to 100 skill level without resorting to grinding. You churn out hundreds of little potions, earrings, knick-knacks of fortify sneak, until eventually all those potions and iron daggers somehow add up to weapons that outperform daedric artifacts. Enchanting is particularly egregious, as there's no experience difference between early enchantments and late game armor-of-the-gods level items. This wouldn't be so bad if there were a way to pay others to do it for you, or if properly-crafted items were less vital to good performance in the game, or if the artifacts you found in the game were competitive with things you could make. As it is, any character who doesn't want to be eaten alive by dragons needs to either get really good at Alteration, or spend hours hunched over your crafting station of choice.

    If implementation were the only issue with Learn By Doing, though, it would be a simple matter of changing a few numbers. Ordinator, for example, changes armor skills so that you get experience just for wearing it in combat, so you don't need to stand in front of giants to grind that armor XP. The larger issue, though, comes when your character starts to hit skill level caps. What do you do then? Once your skills hit 100, you stop getting skill increases for using your core skill sets, which means you no longer level up and can no longer get more perks. In order to get more perks, you have two real options: start using other skills, or reset the skill you're actively using. Both options result in your character losing power, and neither is very immersive. Chadwick the Nord starts to pick up destruction magic and a bow, despite only ever using them for dragon fights before. Ky the sneak thief decides that while the stabbing-you-in-the-back-whadja-gonna-do-eh is very effective, it might be time to try out a Buster sword and armor in which he can barely move. Alternatively, Malacath the unfortunately named orc master smith abruptly forgets how to forge anything more advanced than basic steel, and has to grind everything up from scratch.

    Either way, a potentially very immersive skill system can be brought low and lead to unrealistic actions from all kinds of characters, or force players into a certain role.

    Fallout's system, on the other hand, avoids both pitfalls, but falls into one or two of its own. In Fallout, virtually all actions--picking locks, schmoozing your way through a converation, blasting raider heads into smithereens--give generic XP, which counts towards your next level-up. When that level-up hits, you can then assign skill points as desired. Not as immersive, certain, but a great deal simpler and with fewer implementation pitfalls.

    The problem with Fallout's system comes once you've learned all you want in your chosen skills. Cheri, for example, firmly believed in speaking softly and carrying a bloody big gun, so she maxed out Speech, Big Guns, and Lockpicking. However, once that was done, she had to start to put skill points elsewhere, until she was putting points in throwing because, eh, why the heck not at this point, right? If you play your cards right, virtually every Fallout character is going to be a master of all trades, like Charlie and her 100 Unarmed without throwing a punch.

    While this was less of a problem with games prior to Fallout 4, due to their limited level cap, Fallout 4 has introduced a new problem because of its infinite leveling. When you're perpetually starved for perks, you start doing things not because your character wants to do them, but because you need the sweet, sweet XP dump of random radiant missions. It's grinding, still, but of a different type and for a different reason.

    It's just my thoughts. Of the two, I rather favor the Learn By Doing approach. It has its issues, certainly, but they can be avoided through proper implementation. You can make crafting skills less necessary by having NPC crafting, or through genuinely useful unique items. You can make skill gains more appropriate, present ways to bypass skill gains, or just setting the level cap for skill use so high you'll never reach it in normal use. It's all a matter of how well you think through how the game is going to work.
    Last edited by Balmas; 2018-02-12 at 11:02 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    I think I'm confused, if the route remains is there a problem?
    Yes, the killbot you spent all those resources on is lost. I kept getting hit with this bug since I used robots for all my provisioner routes as soon as I had the chance. Actually, I went much farther than that, and made uber-upgraded bots to put on unnecessary caravan routes so I'd have an army of robots patrolling the Commonwealth. Basically, my way to put the Mechanist's plan into action. It worked, and was highly entertaining to watch when a random spawn of raiders or super mutants ran into one of the Minuteman super deathbots.

    My robots getting reset to default and wasting all the time and materials I'd put into designing them was one of the biggest things to hurt my interest in the game.
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  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    I think I'm confused, if the route remains is there a problem?
    Yes, I was trying to RPG as a good guy, deliberately patrolling the place with heavily armed robots.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Balmas View Post
    The Elder Scrolls method of "learn by doing" is a good system, on paper. If implemented properly, it results in a system where a character organically grows over the course of their run. Chadwick, as befits a Nord, is a master of heavy armor, block, speech, and one-handed, with a middling skill in Alteration and Restoration. He really feels like he came into this power normally, by working at it and through consistent use
    There's another disadvantage to it which was particularly noticeable in Oblivion, although Skyrim still has the problem to some extent: enemies are level scaled to your overall level, and levelling in non-combat skills still increases that--so if you spend all your time grinding smithing, alchemy and the like, you'll be facing tougher enemies without necessarily being any better at fighting yourself. (OK, better armour and potions will help a bit, but not as much as being able to swing a sword properly). In Oblivion this led to the slightly ridiculous situation where the most optimal play was to tag all the skills you never intended to use as your major skills, since that would mean you'd level up more slowly and wouldn't risk the enemies over-levelling you.

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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    The problem is much smaller in Skyrim due to the level system for enemies. Since virtually all of them has an upper level they can't get too crazily overpowered. And if they do, just go somewhere else.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Have much to say, will do so later when I can organize thoughts besides: I don't want to go to work.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    I do like Skyrim's organic leveling a little more, but the ability to invest points into skills on level-ups is still good. I guess that leaves FO4 as an outlier since they practically did away with skill on the front end?
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    I do like Skyrim's organic leveling a little more, but the ability to invest points into skills on level-ups is still good. I guess that leaves FO4 as an outlier since they practically did away with skill on the front end?
    The thing is that the perk system in FO4 isn't all that different. What really is the difference between putting a point into Guns, giving you a X% increase in damage, and putting a point in a Gun perk that gives you X% increase in damage, really?
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    I do like Skyrim's organic leveling a little more, but the ability to invest points into skills on level-ups is still good. I guess that leaves FO4 as an outlier since they practically did away with skill on the front end?
    One thing that I found REALLY helped Skyrim was a skill uncapper. My skills will now increase to 1000, though they stop getting mechanically better at 200. I can't legendary my skills, but that means I never go from master to inexplicably dumb, just so I can keep leveling.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    The thing is that the perk system in FO4 isn't all that different. What really is the difference between putting a point into Guns, giving you a X% increase in damage, and putting a point in a Gun perk that gives you X% increase in damage, really?
    In that example there's not much difference at all. Though... really what makes the Skills+Perks system good in my opinion is having perks that give you abilities and advantages not covered by the skill points, such as nightvision, or healing crippled limbs through radiation, etc.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    The thing is that the perk system in FO4 isn't all that different. What really is the difference between putting a point into Guns, giving you a X% increase in damage, and putting a point in a Gun perk that gives you X% increase in damage, really?
    If we were only comparing the skills to the perks used to replace them, you might have a point. However, it's not just about skills or perks, but a combination that made former Fallout's leveling system better.

    When you're forced to use only perks for things that used to be handled by skills, perks become both blander and scarcer. If you want to make a pistol-wielding character in Fallout 4, your options amount to "I'll buy five ranks in Gunslinger." Compare that to New Vegas, where you get those five levels' worth of skills, and can then turn around and say, "I'm already getting the benefit of being good with guns, but let's really crank up that specialization with Gunslinger for better pistol use, and Cowboy so I'm better with revolvers, and maybe throw in a rank of Hand Loader so Lucky really has a chance to shine." Perk Plus Skill means perks can be more interesting than a flat X% increase to damage, because skills already handle that.

    Perk Plus Skill also means that there can be more depth and variety in characters. Take Jack, from Gopher's New Vegas let's play. He's got a fairly high melee skill, for those times when shotgun and pistol run out of ammo. However, he hasn't put any perks into making melee better. Compare that to Charlie, from my own let's play, whose go-to method of problem solving is to wade into combat with super-sledge swinging. She's got perks that knock people down with melee strikes, perks that help to pierce armor more efficiently, perks to boost melee swing-speed, a couple of perks that allow her to move faster in power armor so she can close the distance more effectively. It results in a character that's much more than just "Five perks to give you +100% damage." Even when you take into account Blitz and Pain Train, Pure Perks still results in less variety, fewer playstyles, and less difference between characters.

    Don't get me wrong. Simplification is good. If you can simplify something while retaining what made it good, you should do so. However, Bethesda's implementation of the perk system in Fallout 4 simplifies something that didn't need it, while actively making it worse for its simplification.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    It steps from Streamlining which Skyrim benefitted from, to Oversimplification to Fallout 4's detriment.

    The thing about Skyrim, is that while yes, Legendarying your armor skill hurts, getting hit while blocking should also count towards increasing your armor skill. And while you might Legendary your one-handed skill, if you leave yourself Archery, you can use bows to thin out the herd of enemies and leave yourself one or two damage sponges to practice hitting in the face with your weak, but still legendary sword. Because while you might lose the skill, your weapon remains in it's smithed/enchanted form.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    And you get a perk every level in Fallout 4 to New Vegas's perk every 2 levels, or every 3 in 1 or 2. Complaining about limiting to perks only feels like whining against change, good or bad.

    That's not to say the perks in Fallout 4 aren't bland as all get out. They are. It's just not the fault of limiting to only perks. Skills are just as bland, WITHOUT flags to check them.

    The perk structure of Fallout 4, limiting it to 10 per SPECIAL stat, THAT was bad.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by tonberrian View Post
    And you get a perk every level in Fallout 4 to New Vegas's perk every 2 levels, or every 3 in 1 or 2. Complaining about limiting to perks only feels like whining against change, good or bad.
    To borrow Balmas' example above, A 10th level character in New Vegas has nine levels worth of skill points to spend, plus five perks. With an average Intelligence of 5, that's 112 skill points, plus a possible 15 more points if the skill is Tagged. That's more than enough if you wanted to max out a skill early on or specialize your character, and then the perks are icing on the cake to give you additional abilities to play around with. In FO4, we have nine perks to spend instead of NV's five at 10th level, but we are spending some of them to do what the skill points would have covered. We also cannot max out damage early since the trees have minimum level requirements (around 10th level I believe most perk trees only let you reach the second rank). Your SPECIALs start overall lower in FO4, so we may be spending more perks to build up stats then we did in NV. Thus, we may end up using half or more of those nine perks in FO4 to do what the skill system was handling anyway. The simplified system doesn't add value to the leveling mechanics. I feel it detracts.


    That's not to say the perks in Fallout 4 aren't bland as all get out. They are. It's just not the fault of limiting to only perks. Skills are just as bland, WITHOUT flags to check them.
    This is true. New Vegas had a lot of dialog responses that check your skills, offering alternative options if you meet the minimum skill level.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    The thing is yes, the skills lack those flags, but perks were designed as modifiers to be applied to your character after skills. So your gun nut character suddenly gains the ability to shoot around corners. But first it's necessary to be able to shoot straight.

    That's where Fallout 4 falls on it's nose. They improved the gunplay, so all characters are equal, so skills don't matter. Which is fine but the hero of a story is supposed to stand out and be special. But when everyone is special no one is.

    Looking at the Courier, you're special, you're either insanely lucky, or supernaturally tough, and survived bullets to the brain. Being all but impossible to kill is what makes you special. And yes, you meet a few people like you. Graham, Ulysses, Lanius. But they are legends. Horrible, Heroic, Ulysses. And while they are special, the fact that they stand out is what makes them special. Not because some random thing has denoted them so.

    The Dragonborn is not unique, you are told so specifically. You meet Miraak, you fight Draugr who can shout, and are taught by the Greybeards. But that those who choose to learn, and those who can are rare, makes you special, and being able to learn as you do, makes you special within even that group.

    Fallout 4 missed the mark the same way Oblivion did. You're not special, not unique, and history will not know you. The Minutemen will only remember a General. You're just another operative to the Railroad. Another faceless, mindless minion to the Brotherhood. Another in a long line of directors who have a new, random vision to the Institute. The same with the Hero of Kvatch, the Hero of the empire. Your great deeds are not acknowledged, your praises are not sung.

    The Dragonborn fought the end of the world given physical form. Lead the companions to Honor and Glory. Laid low an emperor, stole back luck from a master thief, and wielded such magics as to crack the world itself. The Courier stopped a deathly fog from escaping, tamed BigMT, and saved Zion from the clutches of Caesar's puppets. Fought a brother in a temple of destruction in a battle to shake the world. Bent the date of two nation's and all the future atop a wall spanning a mighty river.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    One moment I never forgot in New Vegas was that I once got a conversation option out of having the freakin' Math Wrath perk. That was awesome. And another reason it's a bad idea to have a fixed number of dialogue options.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Fallout 4 missed the mark the same way Oblivion did. You're not special, not unique, and history will not know you.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by tonberrian View Post
    And you get a perk every level in Fallout 4 to New Vegas's perk every 2 levels, or every 3 in 1 or 2. Complaining about limiting to perks only feels like whining against change, good or bad.

    That's not to say the perks in Fallout 4 aren't bland as all get out. They are. It's just not the fault of limiting to only perks. Skills are just as bland, WITHOUT flags to check them.

    The perk structure of Fallout 4, limiting it to 10 per SPECIAL stat, THAT was bad.
    Because they basically have to be bland due to the fact that they entirely replaced the skill system. In most cases, the entire perk system just does what the old skill system already did...except worse.

  26. - Top - End - #416
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Because they basically have to be bland due to the fact that they entirely replaced the skill system. In most cases, the entire perk system just does what the old skill system already did...except worse.
    Fun fact: In order to max your perks in Fallout 4, you'd need to be level 286. Of those levels, 29 would be spent increasing your SPECIAL distribution. Of the remaining 257 perks, you'll find that 72 of them are essentially skill perks. Empty, bland, boring, waste-of-space-but-necessary, filler perks.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Fallout 4 missed the mark the same way Oblivion did. You're not special, not unique, and history will not know you. The Minutemen will only remember a General. You're just another operative to the Railroad. Another faceless, mindless minion to the Brotherhood. Another in a long line of directors who have a new, random vision to the Institute. The same with the Hero of Kvatch, the Hero of the empire. Your great deeds are not acknowledged, your praises are not sung.
    In the old Fallouts (and New Vegas) that sense of you making a mark on the world would have been brought out in the epilogues, where the long range consequences of your actions would be given form.

    Fallout 4 has less of an epilogue than the toaster got in Old World Blues. It doesn't care what you did. You could have built the Minutemen into a towering bastion of order, watching over the wasteland from invincible fortresses, or you could have left them squalid in shacks or shot everyone except Preston. Game doesn't care, world doesn't care. Press X to Shaun.

    Something that illustrates the blandness of Fallout 4's approach to skills is looking at how varied approaches to a quest can be in New Vegas:



    Multiple different outcomes and ways to approach the same situation depending on what skills, perks, and traits you do or don't have, and what else you've done in the game.

    Fallout 4 would only have one resolution, irrespective of your character build, "kill dudes".

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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Found a mod that unlocks all robot stuff at level one but keeps the perk requirement.

    @Triaxx: As for legacy and impact on the world:
    ...?
    Your argument simply doesn't make sense outside an emotional standpoint. The game doesn't have an epilogue that tells you of your legacy, but your deeds are at least on par with Hawke's, or the Lone Wanderer, or The Courier, or The Warden, or...
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    I'm not talking epilogues. Fallout 4's basically the story of you accepting you're now stuck in this new bleak, desolate hellscape. At least according to the game's epilogue.

    But listen to the radio. Listen to the people you help in towns, and see who attacks on sight because you've done something to them.

    No one in Fallout 4 runs over to give you something because you saved the town. No one calls you out for wearing armor which can only be looted from dead guards.
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    Default Re: Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Because they basically have to be bland due to the fact that they entirely replaced the skill system. In most cases, the entire perk system just does what the old skill system already did...except worse.
    The one thing I really appreciate in 4, guns shoot straight regardless of my skill. It was really annoying previously to carefully line up your shot just to have a lack of skill send it off to left field. A shooter where you shoot straight (basically), good move.
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