Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

[Brookshw]

You know, a few simple model and audio edits and we could turn the Brotherhood into Sphece Marines (and female paladins using the Sisters of Battle models and voices), Super Mutants into Orks, could probably cobble together some 'nids from the various insects you encounter, and the Minutemen into the Imperial Guard fairly seamlessly. Unfortunately, Institute to Eldar doesn't really work, or we could really have a fun time of it.

40k total conversions were done for Fallout 3 & NV, I expect we'll see one for 4 in due time.

[Anteros]

I like settlement building myself, but mostly so I can build my own safe house bunkers. Could have used some refinements to snapping on a lot of pieces.

Anyone tried this out: Unbogus Ranged Weapons Silly name aside, could improve the awful shooting in F4.

Wait, so is the shooting in FO4 a legitimate complaint? It felt off to me, but I thought that was just because I hadn't played a shooter with a console controller in years. And I refuse to play a FPS using Vats.

On FO4 itself...I haven't been able to make myself pick it back up since the first time I played. I've got limited time off from work right now, and it's hard to make myself invest in a video game when I know I'll be spending the next week straight at the hospital. This game just hasn't grabbed me the way that the last 2 did...but maybe I just need to give it more time. I'll try to pick it up again in a few days when I'm off again.

[Triaxx]

I find it to be so, given there's a noticable delay between clicking the button to shoot and the gun in your characters hands actually shooting. Other people insist I'm wrong and that it contains the finest shooting ever to grace a video game. VATS... is even less useful now than it used to be. Nothing stops and I find the slowing effect to be so minimal I'm better of just shooting manually. Especially since it's now nigh impossible to shoot grenades, since they don't appear until they're about to be thrown and fly so fast even in VATS that you don't have the time to shoot them.

That's fine. Fallout 4 probably won't immerse you that deeply. I find I play in 15-20 minute chunks before I get bored and want to stop. Then again, I've already played through four times and so I might just be bored with the game.

[Balmas]

Anyone tried this out: Unbogus Ranged Weapons Silly name aside, could improve the awful shooting in F4.

Tried it out on my Über-mode character, and found it to be pretty powerful, as in, I pimped out a double-barrel shotgun, fast traveled to the glowing sea, and proceeded to wreck face with my 800-damage-per-shot flaming shotgun.

I might try it out later with a fresh character, see how that works out for me.

Wait, so is the shooting in FO4 a legitimate complaint? It felt off to me, but I thought that was just because I hadn't played a shooter with a console controller in years. And I refuse to play a FPS using Vats.

I haven't noticed many issues. Its shooting is leagues above that of Fallout 3 and Fallout 4, in that you can actually reliably hit people you're aiming at without needing to install third party mods like bullet time.

With that said, it's got some questionable design decisions forced on it by console users, like binding "throw grenade" and "hit someone with your gun" to the same, suicide-inducing key.

[Triaxx]

I never have had much trouble hitting people, but I'm also a strategy gamer by nature, so that might make a difference.

Fallout 4 hotkeys can now help with that.

[Balmas]

Eh, my problem with Fallout 4's shooting isn't so much with the shooting itself as what you're shooting at. It feels like there's just not enough feedback to the weapons. If it weren't for the giant glowing healthbar above the enemies, you'd have barely any ability to distinguish a non-crippling hit from a miss. On the one hand, Fallout 4's AI is much better than 3 and New Vegas, and it's a feat and a half to have an AI so robust in a game that large, but still.

Apropos of nothing, I've been watching Gopher playing through Evil!Nuka World, and it kinda reminded me of why I just can't get into that DLC.
Nuka World is strange as a DLC, because it's so friggin' contrary to the rest of the game. In the Commonwealth, you have no choice but to be that one guy who altruistically helps everyone with only a few sarcastic words to mark the difference between Peter Perfect and [slightly nastier Peter Perfect.] Then you come to Nuka World, and you're told, "Congrats, you're now the spawn of Satan, go kill stuff for us raiders." The dichotomy between the two areas you go to is jarring in the extreme. You can kill the raiders, sure, but then you might as well not have bought the DLC because there goes most of the content.

Things only get worse when you get into the settlement system. This is because raiders, as a whole, are just crappier settlers. They need virtually the same things, they defend themselves the same way, except they don't like working and will only be happy if others are forced into supplying their needs. Other nearby settlements need to provide them with food. This is a problem, because most of the settlements you're taking over will be pretty crappy unless you've invested time into them. I mean... Look at stuff like Tenpines Bluff or Finch Farm. Congrats, you've taken them over, and your raiders are now the proud beneficiaries of not enough food to even feed the settlers, let alone the raiders. Oh, and have I mentioned that you can't build up tributary settlements once you've taken them over? This leads to you being in the weird spot where in order for tributary settlements to be good enough to support your raiders, you need to build them up first. And if you're doing that anyway, why bother siccing raiders to take a spot that's already yours?

Oh, and also screw companions and screw the Minutement. If I ever do an evil run, I'll need to go straight to the commonwealth, skipping Concord entirely, just so I can see if I can get the raiders into Sanctuary before Preston gets his grubby mitts over it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I did a run in which I was basically playing a shellshocked PTST type of fellow who had his wife killed and son kidnapped for presumably immoral purposes and so was by now either dead or worse. So he had something of a nihilistic worldview. Immediately out of the vault, he ran into Codsworth, who just confirmed that there's no way his son is still alive after so long, so after looting everything of value in his old home, he moved on, following the river north and completely bypassing Concord.

When he heard the firefight, he just shrugged, "Not my problem, leaving now", and went elsewhere so as to avoid getting caught in the crossfire.

Ended up in Nuka-World. Did that whole thing for a bit, mad max style. But when the Pack betrayed him, he saw the writing on the wall. They only served him out of their own greed, and sooner or later, he'd be replaced by some other figurehead. Taking a break from being a puppet leader, he wandered the Commonwealth until he eventually came across Concord again. The raiders were trivial by now, and rescued Preston Garvey. And with him... found new purpose.

How many other people's lives suck even worse than his? How many people suffer day to day? How many people every week do raiders or feral ghouls or super mutants kill? No more. Humanity is taking the Commonwealth back.

He chats with the Railroad and becomes friendly with them, but considers them idealistic and narrow in goal. Picks up the trick of Ballistic Weave, of course, but then kinda... doesn't really buy into their shtick.

When he hears that the [REDACTED] who killed his family is still alive, however, it fills him with a red rage. He leaves the growing Minutemen to Preston for the moment, and goes hunting. Because this one is *personal*. After doing some mandatory questing, because the next part of his story is locked behind the main quest, which is completely immersion-breaking because otherwise I'd never bother with this in this run, and putting Kellogg down like the rabid dog he is, the Brotherhood show up.

While noble in goal, their effect is simply 'raiders in power armor'. They start up synth witch-hunts, raid settlements, and give not one toss about justice or freedom. If they had their way, the whole Commonwealth would be firmly under their T60 boot heel. Needless to say... that is something to which he rather firmly and strongly objects. While they would make their lives better, they wouldn't make humanity as a whole better.

Which is why he's earmarked their airship for destruction. One day... one day indeed. For now, he contents himself with shooting vertabirds out of the air and the occasional ambush of brotherhood patrols.

However, the Brotherhood do have some points. Namely: synths are a huge problem. Someone's pulling their strings, and it is time to put down the puppetmaster once and for all. When the 'big reveal' is given, his response is simply: "You may or may not be my son. But it doesn't matter. Because what you are doing? Is wrong. And you're the one in charge. You're the one who is planning all this." *BLAM BLAM* "May whoever indoctrinated you into believing this crap roast in hell for a thousand years."

And of course, making sure to reserve a round for the atrocity out in the hallway that resembles what my son might have looked like at that age.

Minuteman ending, blowing up the Prydwin and the Institute. Making an effort to establish every single settlement. And making sure each settlement has no only sufficient defenses as to ensure that no one is going to be able to threaten it but also at least one artillery piece. Because I don't want there to be a single inch of the commonwealth where the Minutemen cannot bring down fire support to get rid of the raiders, the super mutants, and all the other hazards that humanity faces.

[veti]

About 40 hours into Fallout 4, I realised there's a name for the particular species of boredom that I'm experiencing. I'm grinding. Not something I'd anticipated in a Fallout game, but here I am, trying to calculate how many more of these idiot missions I have to take before I level.

Note to Bethesda: I could live with taking the skills out. I could even learn to tolerate spoken first person dialogue, even though I think it's even more annoying and counter-immersive than spoken second person dialogue. But level gating skills in this game? That officially makes it too tedious to play. I'm going back to New Vegas.

[LibraryOgre]

So, my uber-dweller in TTW is in Vegas, and I was going to go through the DLC, in order, like you're supposed to. But I got to the Sierra Madre and decided to reload.

I went back to pick up the two cybernetic implants I need (since I have straight 10s in attributes): The regeneration one, and the damage resistance one.

I am TIRED of being half-dead all the time in the Sierra Madre.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, my uber-dweller in TTW is in Vegas, and I was going to go through the DLC, in order, like you're supposed to. But I got to the Sierra Madre and decided to reload.

I went back to pick up the two cybernetic implants I need (since I have straight 10s in attributes): The regeneration one, and the damage resistance one.

I am TIRED of being half-dead all the time in the Sierra Madre.

Unfortunately, that's not going to help a whole lot. You already get really solid armor in the Police Station (Sierra Madre armor, one of the highest DT light armors in the game, only beaten by the Reinforced version), so DT isn't your problem, and regeneration from the Phoenix Monocyte Breeder isn't going to help a whole heck of a lot. The problem with Dead Money, and one of my many complaints about it, is that it is a very... binary system. Every challenge is pass/fail, either you get your head blown off or you make it through. The only 'challenge' is knowing where all the speakers and hologram emitters are. Once you know that, you can go through the entire DLC without taking hardly any damage at all.

[Triaxx]

I think he's more annoyed by the lack of stimpaks. Which is one of the things I hated. Of course once you have access to the Clinic that also solves the problem.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think he's more annoyed by the lack of stimpaks. Which is one of the things I hated. Of course once you have access to the Clinic that also solves the problem.

Could've sworn you could find some in the Police Station. And at any rate, if you take no damage, you need no stimpacks. Unless you're playing hardcore which has the slow trickle of HP going down (which the phoenix implant precisely counters), you really shouldn't be getting hurt. Ghost people are a non-issue, especially after you talk to Dog and get the perk to remove their one gimmick.

Unless you are playing AWOP. Those guys are PAINFUL. But hey, effectively unlimited 12.7mm, .50, 5.56, 10mm, and .45 ACP ammo available from the vending machines through the vendor codes in that mod in the Sierra Madre are quite useful. You already get .308 in vanilla Dead Money in the Police Station (along with repair packs, which absolutely trivializes them).

[Triaxx]

I'm never quite picture perfect with the cloud, so I always take some damage. You're right though, Monocyte Breeder isn't anywhere near as good as it was back in F2. I have to admit though, having played through Dead Money with a dedicated Melee Character, it's much easier than trying to use guns. Though I admit the necessity of using VATS to actually hit anything.

[DodgerH2O]

About 40 hours into Fallout 4, I realised there's a name for the particular species of boredom that I'm experiencing. I'm grinding. Not something I'd anticipated in a Fallout game, but here I am, trying to calculate how many more of these idiot missions I have to take before I level.

Note to Bethesda: I could live with taking the skills out. I could even learn to tolerate spoken first person dialogue, even though I think it's even more annoying and counter-immersive than spoken second person dialogue. But level gating skills in this game? That officially makes it too tedious to play. I'm going back to New Vegas.

That was the first reason I had to mod the game and it helps immensely. I always used to play vanilla once through before modding but that change was too ridiculous to not fix. I consider level gating skills a game-breaker for what I enjoy about Bethesda open-world style RPGs.

[Triaxx]

My gripe turned out to be only certain mods on certain gear bits, and only certain under gear could have armor. And so Armorsmith appeared. And as always, it was all downhill from there.

Though F4 has proven stupidly stable. I've had a total of three crashes in all 504 hours of play. (Not counting those where the game refused to start because of version issues.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My gripe turned out to be only certain mods on certain gear bits, and only certain under gear could have armor. And so Armorsmith appeared. And as always, it was all downhill from there.

Though F4 has proven stupidly stable. I've had a total of three crashes in all 504 hours of play. (Not counting those where the game refused to start because of version issues.)

Which is why I hope and pray that Bethesda will do to FO4 what they did to FO3 with Obsidian... farm out the game engine and franchise license to a third party who actually knows how to world-build and write. Only perhaps NOT screw over the third party developer after everything is said and done...

[Brookshw]

Which is why I hope and pray that Bethesda will do to FO4 what they did to FO3 with Obsidian... farm out the game engine and franchise license to a third party who actually knows how to world-build and write. Only perhaps NOT screw over the third party developer after everything is said and done...

Actually, I'm willing to give it to them that they did a really great job in FO4 with the world building. The catch is they did it passively through background info and stories that you can choose to seek out rather than overt quests and highlighted "on screen" events. There's a lot of talent and thought that went into the game, largely subtle though. Fairvew manor and the mystery without an actual answer but clues, the story of many of the different raider gangs and how they relate and interact with one another. The DB Techinical High School's story about the "monster" in the basement that you need to slowly unravel as you go through, the Suffolk County Elementary School's pink paste program, Hyde park & the Gunner's turning them all against each other, the infighting and betrayal that surrounds the gunners - especially as concerns the fallout of Quincy. There's a ton of really great tragic, thought out, or comical content that's not quest related or something that you directly interact with as much as you find it in the background (more of that direct interactable storyline would have been nice though I wouldn't have wanted to lose any of the passive story content that helps build so much of the world and sets the tone for the game).

[factotum]

I'd have to agree...the one thing Bethesda seems to be any good at is world-building. What they're not good at is populating those worlds with compelling characters and storylines.

[Brookshw]

I'd have to agree...the one thing Bethesda seems to be any good at is world-building. What they're not good at is populating those worlds with compelling characters and storylines.

Characters are hit and miss, but the storytelling part baffles me because clearly they have the ability to tell a good story. For example the Fens sewer and the story between the sociopath/murder and the detective. That was good, engaging, I wanted to know how it ended. But why aren't I teamed up with the detective on the chase? The environmental story is cool, so if they have the ability, why didn't it manifest in more interesting quests? Dunwich Bowers is another example.

Is it just certain mandatory parts of the main story that give a bad impression?

[Triaxx]

Because it was actually a pre-war thing, so the detective was long dead.

[Rynjin]

The UnBogus stuffed seemed interesting enough I actually started a new FO4 playthrough. So far I'm liking the Perks changes, made Action Girl worth taking for sure.

Used Start Me Up to start as an NCR Ranger monitoring Quincy, started at a higher level. It was nice.

[Brookshw]

Because it was actually a pre-war thing, so the detective was long dead.

Point being why are the stories I'm playing a part in not equally compelling if they have the writing ability to create such a story in the first place.

[LibraryOgre]

I mean, consider Vault 11. That story was creepy, compelling... and totally didn't involve you, at all.

[Balmas]

I'd have to agree...the one thing Bethesda seems to be any good at is world-building. What they're not good at is populating those worlds with compelling characters and storylines.

I disagree, though I think we might also disagree on the exact definition of good world-building.

To me, proper world-building means that you put thought into a world, of its groups and factions, of the resources, geography, ecology, countries, and so forth. You twist and poke, and figure out how they play together. What does a city need? What does it produce for trade? Is it self-sufficient? Who wants what they have, and how are they trying to take it? When you're done, you have a world that's mostly coherent.

Bethesda doesn't do world building. The more you think about their worlds, the less their worlds make sense. Why is the main trade center of the Commonwealth Diamond City, instead of the more conveniently located and less mutant-infested Bunker Hill? How come you have all the gun vendors in the world, but nobody actually producing more guns? How does Goodneighbor stay alive when it has no food and doesn't produce anything to trade? Why are there skeletons that nobody's touched for two hundred years? How come you have mutants, mirelurks, raiders, and gunners all in the same fifty feet square, with nobody fighting each other? How come the Forged at Saugus Ironworks don't come out and try to take over the Slog, even though they're within spitting distance of each other?

No, what Bethesda is good at is vignettes. They make little disconnected scenes for the player to stumble across, scatter notes across it. They tell a tiny fragment of story, but then don't ever let that story touch the world. It's good, certainly, but it's not world-building.

[Triaxx]

For one, Diamond City isn't the trade center. It just happens to be the largest settlement by virtue of being easily defensible. Bunker Hill is the equivalent of Canterbury Common, meaning it's basically a place where the Caravans were encouraged to come and go from, but that doesn't have enough space or resources to really be a huge city. Goodneighbor on the other hand, is in a very odd position. It's smack in the middle of mutant territory, surrounded by Ferals and with a really confusingly hard to find entry. I suspect they do business primarily with the more respectable flavor of Raiders, the ones who can pass as people instead of just violent murder machines. Not to mention the Triggermen and Gunners that are allowed in as long as they behave. It's like Fallout 2's Den, where it doesn't really produce much, but criminal enterprise keeps the cash flowing through enough to keep it alive.

And the Forged are complete and totally nutters.

@Rynjin: Glad you're liking it. I might have to give it a go once I get another itch to start over.

[Brookshw]

I disagree, though I think we might also disagree on the exact definition of good world-building.

To me, proper world-building means that you put thought into a world, of its groups and factions, of the resources, geography, ecology, countries, and so forth. You twist and poke, and figure out how they play together. What does a city need? What does it produce for trade? Is it self-sufficient? Who wants what they have, and how are they trying to take it? When you're done, you have a world that's mostly coherent.

But that's here, the raider groups regularly have references to one another and relationships, there's a whole history re: to the minutemen/provincial govt/gunners/institute, including parts where we get conflicting info and have to decide what to believe. The gunners have an MO on what they're after and where you generally find them. Quests to maintain the water in Diamond city, find out what's going on w/ the doctor, repair the wall, history of super mutant attacks, gangsters, classism, drug trade, etc. The elements related you're asking for appear to already be there

Bethesda doesn't do world building. The more you think about their worlds, the less their worlds make sense. Why is the main trade center of the Commonwealth Diamond City, instead of the more conveniently located and less mutant-infested Bunker Hill? How come you have all the gun vendors in the world, but nobody actually producing more guns? How does Goodneighbor stay alive when it has no food and doesn't produce anything to trade? Why are there skeletons that nobody's touched for two hundred years? How come you have mutants, mirelurks, raiders, and gunners all in the same fifty feet square, with nobody fighting each other? How come the Forged at Saugus Ironworks don't come out and try to take over the Slog, even though they're within spitting distance of each other?

Re: Diamond City, security? Pretty sure in addition to the wall they have a nice security corridor and the area to the south is generally clear. And it doesn't have a monopoly, bunker hill also acts as a hub. New guns are being created, at least I'm pretty sure pipe rifles are new, and there's nothing to suggest people don't make guns, there's certainly a ton of weapon benches around and settlers use them regularly. Goodneighbor has a rocking drug and generally black market trade going on (plus actual goods to trade). All factions fight among themselves regularly, you've never stumbled on a gunner v. raider v. BS v. mutant 4 way fight before? It's hardly rare. Slog v. Forged? Why do you shear the sheep but not kill them?

Heck, take Salem for an example. Didn't have what it needed to keep going, fell apart, and you get a tiny quest to help the sole survivor. Sensible, right?

There are answers available, and most are perfectly reasonable. I disagree with all your objections except for the skeleton thing. However that blends into the background and setting for me so I don't care. If it grates then that's fair, but I don't think it begins to tip the scales when weighed against everything they did right. I'll agree we could probably find a few examples of bad writing with some digging, but disagree about its prevalence.

[Balmas]

But that's here, the raider groups regularly have references to one another and relationships, there's a whole history re: to the minutemen/provincial govt/gunners/institute, including parts where we get conflicting info and have to decide what to believe. The gunners have an MO on what they're after and where you generally find them. Quests to maintain the water in Diamond city, find out what's going on w/ the doctor, repair the wall, history of super mutant attacks, gangsters, classism, drug trade, etc. The elements related you're asking for appear to already be there

There's a difference between having a history you can read about and having that actually influence the world.
Let's pick at just one of those groups, shall we?

The Gunners are a mercenary group.
What is their goal? Presumably, it's a matter of profit. They want money. The question then becomes, okay, so if they want money, who's hiring them? Terminal entries tell us that they work for traders occasionally, but that's not borne out by what we actually see in game. We can't hire them, certainly. They're hostile to raiders, BOS, Minutemen, mutants, ghouls, Railroad, Institute, and evidently the caravans by whom they're ostensibly employed. So from what we see in the world, instead of the little terminal entries, they're a mercenary company who are hostile to everyone and have no customers.

Okay, ignore that little hiccup. What is this merc company with no customers doing? What is their MO? They go and take over locations like Hub City Autowreckers, or the Bradburton overpass, or Quincy, or Vault 95. They're big, secure locations that are easily defensible. Okay, so what are they doing with their nice defensible positions?

They're... sitting there. Doing recon on other threats in the area. Normally, I'd look at that behavior and call it establishing outposts or base camps, but for what purpose? They don't have customers, so why bother expanding into that area? I could understand Quincy; the Minutemen were a competing defense force which would cut into the Gunner bottom line. But what about the rest?

As is, we're left with a mercenary company equipped with top-of-the-line equipment, but who are hostile to everything that's not a gunner, who have no customers we can see, and who do virtually no jobs. You can read terminal entries about the different leaders and how they interact with one another, but you'll never see it influence their behavior in real life. Their leaders are carbon copies of every other gunner, except they're using better gear when they're instantly trying to kill you. You can't talk to them, hire them, use them to defend a settlement, or interact with them in any way except to put bullets in heads.

That's not worldbuilding. That's a way for the game to distribute combat armor.

Re: Diamond City, security? Pretty sure in addition to the wall they have a nice security corridor and the area to the south is generally clear.

That's actually a good point. I hadn't considered the value of a secure place for people to live and trade. A fortified location could develop a town inside it just by virtue of "we can hide here when the raiders come." Security would make it an ideal place for caravans to stop in at.

I still question what they have to trade with, though. What do they produce that would entice a trader to come in and barter for? They're self-sufficient with the food and water they have; do they produce enough to have a surplus for trade? Solomon makes drugs; does he have enough to export them to other towns? What makes this town run besides "We have a market where all the people who don't make anything can trade their nothing with other people"?

New guns are being created, at least I'm pretty sure pipe rifles are new, and there's nothing to suggest people don't make guns, there's certainly a ton of weapon benches around and settlers use them regularly.

Pipe weapons I'll give you, but what about all the rest of them? You can't make weapons at weapon benches, only modify them. Where are all the new assault rifles and combat rifles coming from? Who supplies the Gunners with all those fancy weapons and suits of combat armor they've got? Where do Arturo and KL-E-O get their stock? Is there an invisible backroom in each location with a sweatshop making weapons? Or scavengers who head out into the commonwealth to bring back guns from pre-war military bases? Who's making the bullets?

There's nothing to suggest that people aren't making guns, but there's also nobody in the game you can point to and say, "they do it." Guns just pop up in vendors' inventory, fully fledged, and on every enemy in the Commonwealth. I mean, look at Witcher or New Vegas, where you have smiths or the Gun Runners/Van Graffs, groups who explicitly build most of the weapons around based on pre-war diagrams. There's even a quest acknowledging the value of this weapon manufacturing because other people want to get in on it.

All factions fight among themselves regularly, you've never stumbled on a gunner v. raider v. BS v. mutant 4 way fight before? It's hardly rare.

They fight, but only once the player's there to witness the fight. If you take their spawn points as evidence of what they've been doing, then either they've settled into a truce where nobody bothers anybody else until the player arrives, or they're so nearsighted that they can't see the opposing group literally thirty feet away. Heck, there's one point in south Boston where you can sit in a raider camp and spy raiders about eighty feet away, and for whatever reason neither group wants to fight the other.

Slog v. Forged? Why do you shear the sheep but not kill them?

Why do you look at the sheep, ripe for shearing, and completely ignore them? Why is the sheep more worried about the mutants miles away than the raiders literally right next door?

There are answers available, and most are perfectly reasonable. I disagree with all your objections except for the skeleton thing. However that blends into the background and setting for me so I don't care. If it grates then that's fair, but I don't think it begins to tip the scales when weighed against everything they did right. I'll agree we could probably find a few examples of bad writing with some digging, but disagree about its prevalence.

Eh, agree to disagree is fair.

Goodneighbor on the other hand, is in a very odd position. It's smack in the middle of mutant territory, surrounded by Ferals and with a really confusingly hard to find entry. I suspect they do business primarily with the more respectable flavor of Raiders, the ones who can pass as people instead of just violent murder machines. Not to mention the Triggermen and Gunners that are allowed in as long as they behave. It's like Fallout 2's Den, where it doesn't really produce much, but criminal enterprise keeps the cash flowing through enough to keep it alive.

...See, now I'm wishing they'd really played that up. You'd have a morally grey town that does business with people the game paints as evil, and have to ask yourself questions about the people you're facing. If this town is just people trying to make the best of a bad situation, what's that say about the raiders? If you were to change the system enough, could you help them to make a better life for themselves that doesn't involve preying on others?

[Triaxx]

Since Diamond City is visited by Caravan's, I assume it's the source of the shipments, if for no reason other than the wall. I mean Joe Schmo the settler might rediscover the secret to producing Ballistic Fiber, and then get killed by some random raider. While Diamond City provides enough safety to rediscover those things. Annoyingly there's no evidence of the necessary industry. I mean Piper is writing her paper on a pre-war terminal, and printing on what looks like the original Printing Press.

I could have sworn there was a terminal that explained the Gunners employer was supposed to be from outside the Commonwealth. But I might be confusing them with TALON COMPANY! (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[Brookshw]

The Gunners are a mercenary group.
What is their goal? Presumably, it's a matter of profit. They want money. The question then becomes, okay, so if they want money, who's hiring them? Terminal entries tell us that they work for traders occasionally, but that's not borne out by what we actually see in game. We can't hire them, certainly. They're hostile to raiders, BOS, Minutemen, mutants, ghouls, Railroad, Institute, and evidently the caravans by whom they're ostensibly employed. So from what we see in the world, instead of the little terminal entries, they're a mercenary company who are hostile to everyone and have no customers.

Actually, you can find gunners guarding traveling merchants, and these gunners are not hostile to the player. They have a job and aren't being paid to shoot you, so they don't. So......yeah, they do actually function in their purported role. What's odd though is the number of them compared to the number of customers we see. On another note, often if you approach them they call out a warning first and only open fire when you keep approaching. It's not a very big opportunity to turn and run but it does exist, so there's a bit more to their aggression than initially appears. I will agree that they aren't as well developed as I would like, but we also never actually meet their head so I won't be surprised if they crop up in the next Fallout with more development.

What is their MO? They go and take over locations like Hub City Autowreckers, or the Bradburton overpass, or Quincy, or Vault 95. They're big, secure locations that are easily defensible. Okay, so what are they doing with their nice defensible positions?

They're... sitting there. Doing recon on other threats in the area. Normally, I'd look at that behavior and call it establishing outposts or base camps, but for what purpose? They don't have customers, so why bother expanding into that area? I could understand Quincy; the Minutemen were a competing defense force which would cut into the Gunner bottom line. But what about the rest?

They definitely do take up defensible positions, but they also appear to have another purpose searching high tech and medical areas, for example Hallucigen, the Malden Medical facility, the Medical Facility in downtown Boston which I forget the name of, Parson's Sanitarium or whatever it's proper name was. And as above, they do have customers. They're doing something and it's not just taking easily defensible locations, but we have to speculate at what their purpose is. They even have a pattern of dealing with ex-gunners, i.e., they don't care if you leave as long as your not competition, for example the ex-gunners we meet in Nuka World (and I think there's another group in the Commonwealth) are left alone after they leave, whereas Macready is targetted for competing with them as demonstrated during your meeting with him in Goodneighbor. and the two gunners shaking him down.

That's not worldbuilding. That's a way for the game to distribute combat armor.

There's more to them than you give them credit for I think though I agree it's a bit strange there's never a meaningful interaction with them, missed opportunity. Would have been interesting if you could have hired them as part of the end game or to provide security for settlements. This is also just one faction in the game.

I still question what they have to trade with, though. What do they produce that would entice a trader to come in and barter for? They're self-sufficient with the food and water they have; do they produce enough to have a surplus for trade? Solomon makes drugs; does he have enough to export them to other towns? What makes this town run besides "We have a market where all the people who don't make anything can trade their nothing with other people"?

Walking through downtown Boston (IRL) I see lot's of stores but no indication where the goods are coming from. So? You might be asking a bit too much after they already showed us that there is some production going on. Let's not forget that traders come from outside of the Commonwealth so trade is surprisingly widespread.

Pipe weapons I'll give you, but what about all the rest of them? You can't make weapons at weapon benches, only modify them. Where are all the new assault rifles and combat rifles coming from? Who supplies the Gunners with all those fancy weapons and suits of combat armor they've got? Where do Arturo and KL-E-O get their stock? Is there an invisible backroom in each location with a sweatshop making weapons? Or scavengers who head out into the commonwealth to bring back guns from pre-war military bases? Who's making the bullets?

There's nothing to suggest that people aren't making guns, but there's also nobody in the game you can point to and say, "they do it." Guns just pop up in vendors' inventory, fully fledged, and on every enemy in the Commonwealth. I mean, look at Witcher or New Vegas, where you have smiths or the Gun Runners/Van Graffs, groups who explicitly build most of the weapons around based on pre-war diagrams. There's even a quest acknowledging the value of this weapon manufacturing because other people want to get in on it.

And Laser Muskets, likely a much higher technological requirement to make. More I suppose when we consider that Bowling Ball gun in Far Harbor. So what we can reasonably infer is that the Commonwealth possesses the capacity to develop ballistic and energy weapons. But the player can't make these from scratch right? So what gives? I don't think it's a giant mystery that the player has a different experience in the game, and they've left you to scavenge/buy what you want rather than build it (barring mods), it's a scenes-a-faire for a post-apocalypse game. So? As you agreed, there's nothing that suggests people aren't making weapons, so why do we need to point to one or two organizations to say "they do it"? Instead, if it's widespread enough (and there sure are weapon benches everywhere) isn't it more likely that the capacity is generally available and there's not as much need for competition (and the NV competition is pretty fitting to the mob competition sort of thing going on there which is not as prevalent here, though see drug manufacturing below).

Now let's parallel this for a moment and talk about Wilson Atomatoys. We have their headquarters downtown, which we get to explore, find out about the history of the company and how they shifted their manufacturing, the heart wrenching backstory to the Ghoul in the Slog that just wanted to make the giddyup buttercup toys and how his daughter just wanted to spend with him (and who ultimately just wants to go home - which coincidentally is a giant hole in the ground after the bombs fell per his notes). So we know who was working there and making the toys, but where were they making them? Well, we have the Wilson Automatoys factory in the south, so that mystery is solved. And the last piece of the story, the ghoul leaves to go home, but where is that? Well, go to the big Cambridge crater after he receives his daughters holotape and takes off and you'll see him pass through the crater visiting his home for, potentially, the last time.

So it's all explained, all the places do exist, and it's clear the devs were thinking about these chains of manufacturing your concerned with.

As another example, you can find out about a massive drug manufacturing ring with the manufacturing taking place down near the castle (I forget the name of the building it's in, some cannery or some such, the one with all the laser tripwires outside that form the locking mechanism to get in) so it's not like Wilson's a one off.

(edit: the DLC Contraptions, go make all those things you're questioning where they came from. What was the question again?)

They fight, but only once the player's there to witness the fight. If you take their spawn points as evidence of what they've been doing, then either they've settled into a truce where nobody bothers anybody else until the player arrives, or they're so nearsighted that they can't see the opposing group literally thirty feet away. Heck, there's one point in south Boston where you can sit in a raider camp and spy raiders about eighty feet away, and for whatever reason neither group wants to fight the other.

Again, Hyde Park showed us a story of the gunners turning raiders against each other out and preparing to move in, there are a lot of raider bodies scattered around as a result. The raider gangs make regular reference to fighting one another. So there is conflict between the factions "off screen". That the AI isn't triggered in all instances to give you an "on screen" fight seem trivial.

Why do you look at the sheep, ripe for shearing, and completely ignore them? Why is the sheep more worried about the mutants miles away than the raiders literally right next door?

Do they ignore them? I'm not entirely sure they do, and the Forged sure are happy to attack any supply lines that go through their turf. I suppose another note about the Forged is they have a bit of a stalemate going on with Autocity Wreckers' gunners.

Eh, agree to disagree is fair.

might be that's all we're going to get. And on further thought I'm glad to admit some things are just...well...stupid. Like the kid in the fridge quest. Kid sat in a tiny box for two hundred years then came out without as something other than a feral maddened creature? Stupid.

[Balmas]

Might be that's all we're going to get. And on further thought I'm glad to admit some things are just...well...stupid. Like the kid in the fridge quest. Kid sat in a tiny box for two hundred years then came out without as something other than a feral maddened creature? Stupid.

Oh, absolutely. There's so many things wrong with that quest it's not even funny. Kid gets locked into a fridge and A) survives a nuke, B) doesn't starve to death or die of thirst. He then stays there for C) two hundred years D) without going insane or becoming a feral ghoul or E) being discovered by the Minutemen, or the gunners, or his parents who F) are also still alive, ghoulified, and sane and G) are still living within two hundred feet of the fridge in which their son was trapped.