Results 31 to 60 of 86
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2017-12-08, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
Campaign limits (for damage dice, defenses, combat skill, etc) beyond simple point totals are part of the system as published -- not houserules -- for HERO, at the very least. Just to make that clear, additional constraints are an intended part of the system; if the GM of a Champions/superheroic campaign isn't using them, then he's not houseruling, he's simply ignoring part of the standard setup for a campaign.
If you don't take any Disadvantages in Superheroic campaign in HERO (that is, your character has no "flaws"), it is difficult to impossible to afford the sorts of powers that break the game, and the character is far more likely to cause issues by being chronically underpowered.
If other point-based systems don't work out this way, then the problem isn't point-buy, it's those systems.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-12-08, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Location
- Dallas, TX
- Gender
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
The problem is that many effects can be simulated by a math function in the reasonable range, but extended too far, that function becomes ludicrous. For instance, the rule for sidekicks in Champions lets you double the number of sidekicks you have for an additional 5 points. That makes sense, at small numbers - 3, 4, 8. But for an additional 165 points, it's possible for a starting character to have 8 billion sidekicks - everybody in the entire world is yours to control. That's (one reason) why GMs must always have the ability to overrule the rules.
There was some Steve Jackson game in the 1980s that included a statement that if a player finds a loophole that gives significantly more power than the rules intended, the GM should congratulate the player on his ingenuity and ruthlessly disallow it.
With this rule and a competent GM, the risks of any system are manageable. Without this rule, most systems can lead to absurd results.
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2017-12-09, 05:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
Options.
Specifically, in a classed game there's a smaller number of potential character builds (most of the time), so I just have to check if a Paladin 5 is equal to a Firedancer 5 (or at least are levels are roughly balanced enough that the difference never matters). But in a point buy game there are generally over a thousand potential combinations in the corebook alone, which can lead to a lot of synergies being overlooked. Note that most of 5e's balance issues come from either multiclassing or feats, which add more options, with the classes being roughly balanced (barring some outliers).
Yes, yes there is. Technically noncanon, as has been said, but it certainly works for pre-whateverthelatestbookiscalled Laundry rather well. It even gives the rules to play in any department, from operations to catering to the shrieking half mad sorcerers in R&D.
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2017-12-09, 06:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
- Gender
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
On the whole it is decent. The splat books, some of the missions, etc. are all fun and useful. The biggest issue I had was how the magic system was generally a bit wonky and didn't quite match up to the books, especially anything after Fuller Memorandum.
If you don't focus too much on that, and like the BRP, you're golden. If you aren't too fond of BRP (I'm at best lukewarm towards it) it's fine with a few houserules.
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2017-12-09, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
- Location
- The Frozen North
- Gender
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2017-12-09, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
True for open to abuse, but not to being broken.
It's a well known fact that, ignoring some outliers (3.5 is the well known one) point buy systems tend to be unbalanced and feature insane combos compared to classed systems. In several superhero systems it is possible to build a starting character who can put out the sun (either by explicitly having the power 'put out the sun' or by having a more versatile power that just happens to be capable of it), which is fine if the GM okays it and nobody else has brought Batman to the table, and in M&M3e being alive and awake at the beginning of every round costs only 60PP (Immortality 20 plus Regeneration 10 means you revive at the beginning of the round and remove your worst damage condition at the start of your turn) which is actually relatively weak because you so very rarely go down without several hits. These options just don't exist in D&D 4e/5e.
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2017-12-09, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- The Lakes
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
1) Those "superhero" games are attempting to emulate a very different sort of character and setting.
2) It sounds like some of those other point-buy systems are still trying to catch up to what HERO did long ago. It's not a perfect game, but IME it doesn't have the sort of crazy-arse problems people chalk up to "a point-based thing".
3) I'll take the need for player and GM discretion over imposedclichesarchetypes 10 out of 10 times.
Whenever this stuff about "but in this example point-buy system I can work up this combination that breaks the game" comes up, I'm reminded of the apocryphal quote about censorship attributed to Mark Twain.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-12-09 at 10:26 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-12-09, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- England
- Gender
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
I'm going to recommend The One Ring.
It's a very narrative driven game, but not in the same sense that, say, FATE is. TOR has a diverse set of sub-systems for different aspects of play, but combines them in an easy to grok and unobtrusive manner. Unlike d20, TOR resolves everything with the same basic dice mechanic, from social skill checks to damage in combat to how long it takes to get from A to B. This makes it easy to know what you're rolling and how to resolve it. On the flipside, it's definitely a game about feeling like a badass, with a multitude of special/unique abilities for all kinds of situations (e.g. one character might be able to use magic to improve their archery skills and then turn around and get an automatic success on some deep thinking with his Smoking aspect, then climb nimbly to the top of a hill by acing his roll on an Athletics test).
WARNING: TOR has a fair bit of book-keeping involved, so if you don't like the idea of playing half a session to resolve travelling from the Lonely Mountain to the Gates of Mirkwood without actually enacting any combat along the way, OR you don't like the notion that you'll have to track your encumbrance because it has significant in and out of combat implications, among other things, then this is probably not for you.
That said, I love The One Ring. It's focus on action and narrative without bogging down in minute details has a massive appeal to me. If I had to describe it in one word, that word would be "elegant".I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.
Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.
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2017-12-09, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
1) Sure, but my point was that characters can vary wildly, with Batman and 'put out the sun man' as an intentionally extreme example (although in most games Batman would be the better character).
2) Eh, HERO still suffers from some problems IIRC, a big one being that how powerful your character is is based on how they're built (as in, there's some methods that essentially give you free points compared to making a power the 'normal' way, sometimes up to a 100% increase in effective points spend), but I don't have an interest because I own GURPS, and I'm more interested in the games GURPS is suited to (relatively hard science fiction and modern games with mundane characters) than the high power level HERO was originally designed for. It's a personal taste (and FWIW GURPS has effectively caught up to HERO in the versatility department, in that the supplement books no longer need to add in rules, although it's not quite there).
3) Sure, I was explaining why it's relatively well known that point buy games tend to be less well balanced (although depending on the scope some can be at the level of not having power builds).
The point isn't that 'I can do this specific thing in a point buy system' (I believe that 'put out the sun man' is an example of a possible power in Wild Talents, which they then politely ask you not to use), 'point buy systems tend to have enough variables that characters tend to have a higher power ceiling and lower power floor' is the point. Heck, I like point buy, as I have said many times on this forum, but the fact that it tends to require more GM oversight for players to be at the same rough power level.
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2017-12-09, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
So, are there any rpg's that haven't been mentioned yet? I feel we've pitched just about everything to this guy.
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2017-12-09, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
- Gender
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
Technically speaking, FATAL is fantasy themed and has an extremely complex character creation process....😁
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2017-12-09, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Location
- Tharggy, on Tellene
- Gender
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
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2017-12-09, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
This says less about point buy systems and more about superhero systems - specifically that any superhero system that is even slightly thorough is going to include a wide variety of superpowers, and that these superpowers can get pretty ridiculous when extended upwards for high power campaigns. The ORE system really shows this - it's point buy and generally pretty grounded, except for the superhero iteration which has some real shenanigans.
As a conservative estimate, the unmentioned rpg count is about 10,000.
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2017-12-09, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
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2017-12-10, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
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2017-12-10, 05:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
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2017-12-11, 04:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
- UK
- Gender
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
Earthdawn is crunchy fantasy. Has it's issues, but definitely not the same ones as PF. It is class-based, but with everyone being specifically magical, it gets around some of the caster cs mundane by giving outright magical abilities to fighter-types. Never played at high enough rank to see how that works out in practice though.
If you want crunchy fantasy with looong character generation, and you can find it (I am going to guess you probably can't, but who knows?), you could try Gary Gygax's Dangerous Journeys system. The fantasy version was called Mythus. Haven't played it for about 20 years, but my memory is of a long (as in multiple hour) char gen that did then lead to reasonably fast game play - it pushed most of the maths on the char gen part. Not sure how much I'd trust my memory that far back though, so take with a pinch of salt. No idea how balanced it is, but I am going to guess there are going to be issues. Certainly lucky rolling on the birth rank table can boost your power significantly (you need to be REALLY lucky, but 7th of a 7th son gets a lot of advantages from hwta I recall)
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2017-12-11, 07:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
Another interesting idea is Victoriana. Much more Steampunk Shadowrun than anything D&D, although there are lots of differences (more races, including Halflings, Gnomes, and Beastmen, who have been around since recorded history began, and magic seems to be on the decline rather than on the rise). It uses a d6 dice pool system where your competency is measured by 'white dice' and is equal to Attribute+Skill+positive circumstances, while the difficulty of the action is represented by 'black dice'. If you roll more successes (1s or 6s) on your white dice than your black dice you succeed, one extra success is marginal, two is complete. 6s explode.
There are some problems in that it's possible to have negative dice pools (Attributes range from about -3 to about 8ish), but the advice I've seen the designer give is 'in this case roll one white dice, with extra black dice equal to your negative score plus one'. It is also 100% point buy, although it does provide a lot of example packages in the core book. Social class also has a big impact (because Victorian Britain), it determines your starting money for equipment, how good the Income talent is for you, and how much extra money you get at the beginning of an adventure, as well as impacting where your character can go, what careers are acceptable for them, and how people react to them. On the flip side, the higher your social class the lower your Fortitude attribute. Plus if you do want to play an Orc gentleman or an Elf prostitute, there's a Talent that allows you to pick an unusual social class.
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2017-12-11, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
- Gender
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
I don't want, narrowly, "basically pathfinder". I want something with the slew of options and content that pathfinder has and can support. It could be a classless card-draw based system with no magic items and highly abstracted combat and still fit the criteria. A fixed PF 2e sort of thing would work, but is not the only solution.
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2017-12-11, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
That makes it both easier and harder. You're NEVER going to find another game with as much "options and content" as PF, because they've literally spent like 12 years or whatever churning out options and content. But your point about the nature of the game is well taken. Though I confess to having trouble reconciling "It could have abstract combat for all I care!" with "it needs as many options (presumably mechanical) as I can possibly get"?
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2017-12-11, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
Actually, if we can pull from before 4e, GURPS probably has more options and content than PF does, and if we can't it comes pretty close. They seem to have begun actual book support again recently as well, with titles being put into PoD and new ones being released (even if the recent releases I know of have mainly been compiling pdfs and licences). Even if we just count 4e, GURPS is crunchy and via it's genre books has a lot more content than Pathfinder, and probably more practical options in any campaign (due to it not being quite as combat focused, although tactical combat still gets an entire chapter). Plus in we go into pdf some of the settings have recieved updates from 3e (the big one being Transhuman Space), which tend to bring more options with them plus the content of the nonupdated settings.
OP, it really is sounding like you want a generic system, at which point as Fate is out the big four to consider will be HERO (probably the leader in terms of doing things with the corebook in crunchy systems), FUDGE (probably actually more versatile than HERO, but lighter), GURPS (preferred to HERO on this forum due to character creation requiring slightly less maths, and is more supplements centric but abuses that to give you a lot of options to use in any genre*), and Savage Worlds (which is the least flexible of the four). Bare in mind each generic will have a certain tone, GURPS will be grittier than Savage Worlds of FUDGE which will be grittier than HERO.
For what you've asked for I'd recommend GURPS or HERO over FUDGE, and FUDGE over Savage Worlds. Note that while FUDGE is the game Fate is based on, all the narrative stuff is 100% Fate, with the exception of Fudge Points (which, due to the lack of other narrative stuff, are much less prominent). My vote would be for GURPS, but that's because I adore the GURPS supplement books and the depth they get into, with the corebook still allowing anything up to near future play, I'm sure Knaight would vote that you try FUDGE and I think Max_Killjoy would say that HERO is better. These are all personal preferences though.
* Seriously, the X-tech books are basically set up so technology is in categories and you can allow say TL12 lasers but only TL10 computers, or TL10 medicine with TL3 weapons and armour.
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2017-12-11, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
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2017-12-11, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- San Francisco Bay area
- Gender
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
.
I second RuneQuest
and
Chaosium's BRP, which is just so intuitive.
(Here's a pdf sample), is my "go-to" generic system.
They're many BRP based games, the most known of which is Call of Cthullu, which I found to be one of the easiest RPG's to Gamemaster or "Keeper", more D&D like were RuneQuest (the original "BRP" game), Pendragon (my favorite, here's a pdf sample of some of the 5th edition rules, the latest I have, a 5.2 is out now).
Chaosium's Stormbringer had a magic system based on summoning supernatural entities, which I really recommend.
Here is a
review of Stormbringer
that seems to go deepest into the "mechanics" that I've been able to find (warning NSFW language).
I really have a hard time in reading PDF's, but here's a
Quick start Magic World PDF
the rules of which I'm told are based on Stormbringer. but was the most D&D like as Magic World was designed to use "Runequest like rules, but with a gonzo D&D feel".
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2017-12-12, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Location
- In the Interwebz
- Gender
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
Has anyone mentioned Rifts? While not technically fantasy, it can scratch that itch. The pure insanity of the game can sometimes be fun in of itself. The real downfall of the whole game is that there is too much going on, and the game designers were not interested in balancing things with very opinionated views towards spellcasters, negative opinion.
If you are looking for lots of different classes many with very interesting powers and advancements I would suggest Rifts.
"I laugh at life, it's antics make for me a giddy game. Where only foolish fellows take themselves with solemn aim.”
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2017-12-12, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
I'm going to recommend GURPS or Savage Worlds, depending on how crunchy you want.
Yes, GURPS uses a single core mechanic, but as others have pointed out, that's just what you roll when it comes to roll dice - not much different than most rolls in PF being a d20.
Beyond that, how you get there, what modifiers, etc., can all be impacted by whatever subsystem you're using.
Yeah... Burning Wheel is, if anything, even more narrative than Fate. It's a hell of a jump from Pathfinder."Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2017-12-12, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
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2017-12-12, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2005
- Location
- Toronto, Canada
- Gender
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2017-12-12, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
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2017-12-12, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- NYC
- Gender
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something
Chuubo's quests / paths stuff is somewhat similar to your current profession in Warhammer Fantasy.
You've got some specifics you need to meet before embarking. You've got some things to accomplish / experience as you progress through the path / profession. When you complete one, you move on to the next one.
You could probably make tracking cards for each one, just as WFRP3 did make tracking cards for professions & their traversal.
(Now I kind of want a pastoral WHFRP game...)I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-12-13, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2015
Re: I think I need a new TTRPG, sell me something