The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Ivan does look a lot younger, but it's possible Hilgya has been on the run for a long time:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0083.html
    That's why I didn't give it higher odds. Though his hair whitening couldbe the result ofthe failed poisining.
    Look what happened to Red in the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    On a different subject, I really like how Belkar calls into question Hilgya's description of Durkon. He's grown quite a bit since Durkon's death, possibly even realizing that Durkon was a friend. I think half the reason he's been so violently Anti-Durkon* is that he finally appreciates who Durkon was, and is insulted by this thing squatting in his friend's body, pretending to be Durkon. I think Belkar is a little bit shocked to discover that he cares about more people than himself (and his pets)
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    I doubt the baby will actually get hurt (because, as you said, that's pretty dark), but I can totally see a scenario where harm looks to be inevitable (or at least, something Hilgya most assuredly can't stop), only for some other party member to prevent the blow from landing (kill two birds with one stone and make it Belkar, even).
    We saw toddlers with broken legs (and baby dragons being killed) in V's Familicide arc.

    I don't think The Giant has ever said "We will never see a baby hurt in this strip".
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    You mean like these posts?
    Yes, those, and these:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=127

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=128

    Those two were the first "Hilgya needs to get a baby sitter" posts in the 1105 thread. You can say they predicted/foreshadowed Roy's suggestion in this strip perfectly.

    Friend Keltest was the one who first brought up Rich's aversion to harming kids in the 1105 thread:
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=151

    And there was much further discussion after that, and in a couple of subsequent threads.

    @hamishspence: hmm, fair point.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-12-07 at 04:59 PM.
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    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    We saw toddlers with broken legs (and baby dragons being killed) in V's Familicide arc.

    I don't think The Giant has ever said "We will never see a baby hurt in this strip".
    Well, there's a supreme difference there. Toddlers can survive having their legs broken, but if you hurt a baby at all, they probably won't be around tomorrow.

    Then again, there's also the entire fiasco with Eric Greenhilt, so... I got nothing.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Sure, but what does that have to do with why she doesn't trust the followers of Thor to take care of Kudzu?
    Absolutely nothing, AFAICT.

    That said, I think her reasons to not trust the Temple of Thor are fairly self-evident. Plenty of religious people distrust other religion's intentions when raising children, because they'll naturally raise them in that other religion. I'm guessing Hilgya would want her child to either be a free spirit, or a devout follower of Loki, depending on how much of a hypocrite she is, but in either case she would NOT want her child to be "indoctrinated" into being a follower of Thor.

    Yes, it's a bit irrational when the kid cannot possibly be indoctrinated in the space of time she'd leave him with them, but that's were her paranoia* might kick in and be thinking "they'll take him away from me if I give them half a chance, just like they took my life from me when they forced me to marry" or the like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Oh. Maybe your position simply isn't related to the aspect of the situation I'm wondering about.
    Seems so. Sorry I was short with you. I've taken a breather now and put Korvin in my Ignore list and am feeling much better.

    Edit: by the way, can you find the quote about children going to their mother's plane? There was something about githkari doctors cutting the astral umbilical cord that I remember being rather amusing.

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    *By the way, I do NOT fault her if she has this kind of paranoia. I myself am currently afflicted with it. I blame hormones.
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2017-12-07 at 05:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    Then again, there's also the entire fiasco with Eric Greenhilt, so... I got nothing.
    Happened off screen might be the answer for you?

    As to the young dragon being killed: I seem to recall that the young black dragon was killed before OoTS meets Miko, thus I am not sure that one should call that part of "V's arc" beyond the consequences of disintegrating the young black dragon that came two books later. (Dragon disintegrated in Aint no Cure for Paladin Blues, consequences were in Don't Split the Party). If they'd left a body, part of the vengeance/grief scene would have been robbed of its poignance when V and the parent dragon meet on that Island) .

    (Hmm, did anyone ever discern which age category the black dragon was whose mother later came to avenge?)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-12-07 at 05:05 PM.
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    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Edit: by the way, can you find the quote about children going to their mother's plane? There was something about githkari doctors cutting the astral umbilical cord that I remember being rather amusing.
    Here you go:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    D&D cosmology is utterly incoherent, being a pastiche on several real world religions that's then strained through a fundamentally incompatible alignment system where Good and Evil are both valid life choices with equally powerful patrons. D&D writers have been trying to make it make sense for 40 years; it still doesn't. My version doesn't either. It's good enough for the story to get where it's going.

    If you really need an answer, let's say that babies go wherever their mother is/will go, because of the psychic umbilical cord that stretches through the Uterine Plane. When you get older and determine your own alignment, marauding githyanki doctors with special silver clamps cut the cord. Because why not?

    And since people have mentioned how creeped out they are about the fact that Eric doesn't ever get to grow up, let's say that when everyone who knew him in life gets over their baggage about his death and ascends higher up the mountain, he either reincarnates or grows up or something. I don't know what. Something. Whatever doesn't creep you out. Again, not important to the story.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Happened off screen might be the answer for you?

    As to the young dragon being killed: I seem to recall that the young black dragon was killed before OoTS meets Miko, thus I am not sure that one should call that part of "V's arc" beyond the consequences of disintegrating the young black dragon that came two books later. (Dragon disintegrated in Aint no Cure for Paladin Blues, consequences were in Don't Split the Party). If they'd left a body, part of the vengeance/grief scene would have been robbed of its poignance when V and the parent dragon meet on that Island) .

    (Hmm, did anyone ever discern which age category the black dragon was whose mother later came to avenge?)
    Well, yeah, maybe. Backstory might be exempt from that.

    I think they were referring to here, though, where one of the familicide targets depicted was a nest of dragon eggs (so yes, dead dragon babies... or aborted dragon babies? I'm not sure which is worse.)

    As for the other dragon... Young Adult.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    I think they were referring to here, though, where one of the familicide targets depicted was a nest of dragon eggs (so yes, dead dragon babies... or aborted dragon babies? I'm not sure which is worse.)
    Ah, yeah, forgot.
    As for the other dragon... Young Adult.
    OK, thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    I think they were referring to here, though, where one of the familicide targets depicted was a nest of dragon eggs (so yes, dead dragon babies... or aborted dragon babies? I'm not sure which is worse.)
    I was thinking of the panel immediately below that - with a baby dragon with a much larger head, proportionally, than the Young Adult dragon - figure that this was a wyrmling/hatchling.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I was thinking of the panel immediately below that - with a baby dragon with a much larger head, proportionally, than the Young Adult dragon - figure that this was a wyrmling/hatchling.
    ...Well, I guess we know who failed their Spot check a few minutes ago, huh?

    (It's me. Normally I wouldn't spoil the joke, but this thread's had some inflammatory points, so just wanna be clear.)

    Also, I'm noticing a lot of those dragons were in the air when they died... I gotta feel sorry for the poor adventurers who suddenly have a black dragon corpse fall on top of them for no apparent reason.
    Last edited by Ironsmith; 2017-12-07 at 05:16 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I mean, it's certainly not uncommon for a mother to feel the need to protect her baby personally...but on the other hand I think protecting a baby would principally involve keeping danger away from said baby...but on the other hand (tentacle?) actively repelling danger with high-level abjuration spells might constitute keeping danger away in her mind.
    Which would indicate that she has a lower INT than Elan and a lower WIS than Belkar. Two words: Dispel Magic.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Which would indicate that she has a lower INT than Elan and a lower WIS than Belkar. Two words: Dispel Magic.
    If the vampires had that, they probably would've used it by now... specifically to remove V's Forcecage. Hilgya would know that already, since she basically just rescued them.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Which would indicate that she has a lower INT than Elan and a lower WIS than Belkar. Two words: Dispel Magic.
    If the baby appears to be a threat to Hilgya's foe? Yeah. But I think, on a practical level, that with Hilgya and the rest of the Order, and Minrah, being the major threats/combatants, a spell like Dispel Magic would more likely be cast to deal with the more pressing problem of the party than with the baby being carried by Hilgya. (but there's no guarantee, since the party is dealing with Vampires here, whose stock in trade is pretty deep evil).

    @Ironsmith
    I can't find the posts at the moment, but I think that in the discussion thread where Forcecage's details were run to ground after V cast it, dispel magic wasn't one of the ways to get rid of it. I'll see if I can find that post.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-12-07 at 05:33 PM.
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    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quick clarifying question Korvin: do you believe that Hilgya is unnecessarily endangering the baby, regardless of what she herself believes?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    If the vampires had that, they probably would've used it by now... specifically to remove V's Forcecage. Hilgya would know that already, since she basically just rescued them.
    Forcecage isn't affected by dispel magic. Also, that none of the vampires there used it, does not mean none of the other vampires have it prepared.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Quick clarifying question Korvin: do you believe that Hilgya is unnecessarily endangering the baby, regardless of what she herself believes?
    My position on the practical level is that Roy makes a hell of a lot more sense than Hilgya, from an OOC RL perspective. See my comments about whether or not I'd take my kids to a battle when I was in the Navy. No, I would not.
    You put your finger on something IC that matters, though:
    regardless of what she herself believes?
    That will inform her actions and attitudes, no? And I speculated as well, which is the what if part: what if she's done this before and has gotten away with it? (Possible RL analogue: drive drunk and get away with it. Might use that as internal justification for doing it again, only this time, the police lights come on in the rear view mirror ...)
    Would that not (in her own mind and in her own experience) lead her to take the position we see her taking?
    We don't know if that's the case, and I thought I made clear that this was a what if in terms of what (unknown things) happened in the year and a half or so since her last on screen scene.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-12-07 at 05:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    I have a better way to view this:

    If this wasn't a baby but just a quadriplegic in a wheelchair, it would be just as a bad idea. She is now a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Dispel Magic is also an area effect spell, remember. Someone just has to decide to make Hilgya a bit spongier and Kudzu's protections are gone too.

    Or just hit her with an AoE attack spell she didn't ward against. Like, say, Mass Inflict X Wounds. Hurts enemies, heals vampires, kills baby.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Quite the opposite, in fact: She outright refused to leave Kudzu out of harm's way. Does she think "a bunch of Thor flunkies" are a bigger threat to Kudzu than a bunch of vampires, or is she not trusting anyone but herself to protect him?
    Hilgya pretty clearly trusts nobody associated with Thor, likely trusts nobody who is a dwarf in good standing with their society, and quite possibly trusts nobody at all.
    Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Just wondering: how does Haley know anything about the Church of Loki? I know they had one in GreySky City, but I don't remember her spending any time with them.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    Just wondering: how does Haley know anything about the Church of Loki? I know they had one in GreySky City, but I don't remember her spending any time with them.
    She was in the thieves guild there for a number of years before OoTS happened, and it appeared in the story that the Guild and the Loki clerics had a long standing relationship. (This during the Belkar comes out of coma, Haley Pickle attacked by Crystal, etc in Don't Split the Party). The cleric of Loki who releases Belkar from his curse is actually doing this under the table.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-12-07 at 05:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    On a different subject, I really like how Belkar calls into question Hilgya's description of Durkon. He's grown quite a bit since Durkon's death, possibly even realizing that Durkon was a friend. I think half the reason he's been so violently Anti-Durkon* is that he finally appreciates who Durkon was, and is insulted by this thing squatting in his friend's body, pretending to be Durkon. I think Belkar is a little bit shocked to discover that he cares about more people than himself (and his pets).
    He was surprised about the pets, too, frankly.
    Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eilandesq View Post
    --I hope young Kudzu has improved evasion and some decent DEX save bonuses, or this will end badly;

    --I have to agree with those who don't feel too sorry for Hilgya given that as a middle level cleric she had abundant resources for tracking down Durkon long ago, including Scrying and Commune if she's at least 9th level, and Greater Scrying and Wind Walk if she's at least 13th level. Durkon may have sent her away, but if she had wanted to track him down and make him aware of her condition and her anger, she had more than adequate means of doing so;

    --can we just take the loud hint from The Giant that one of Loki's domains allows his clerics to turn undead and dispense with further discussion of the "clerics of evil gods can't turn undead!" issue?
    Im not a big personal fan of her - but Loki might have actively prevented that (because of need of her further down the line ...)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Dispel Magic is also an area effect spell, remember. Someone just has to decide to make Hilgya a bit spongier and Kudzu's protections are gone too.

    Or just hit her with an AoE attack spell she didn't ward against. Like, say, Mass Inflict X Wounds. Hurts enemies, heals vampires, kills baby.
    Dispel Magic as used against Hilgya would almost certainly be a targeted Dispel aimed at all spells affecting her, rather than an area dispel to remove one random spell within 20 feet of the caster. This /could/ affect Kudzu if dispelling a protective spell that Hilgya has cast on both also removes the effect on Kudzu, but also might not do that.
    Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    Just wondering: how does Haley know anything about the Church of Loki? I know they had one in GreySky City, but I don't remember her spending any time with them.
    Haley said the entire church is affiliated with the Thieves' Guild, which she and her father were both members of.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    My position on the practical level is that Roy makes a hell of a lot more sense than Hilgya, from an OOC RL perspective. See my comments about whether or not I'd take my kids to a battle when I was in the Navy. No, I would not.
    You put your finger on something IC that matters, though: That will inform her actions and attitudes, no? And I speculated as well, which is the what if part: what if she's done this before and has gotten away with it? (Possible RL analogue: drive drunk and get away with it. Might use that as internal justification for doing it again, only this time, the police lights come on in the rear view mirror ...)
    Would that not (in her own mind and in her own experience) lead her to take the position we see her taking?
    We don't know if that's the case, and I thought I made clear that this was a what if in terms of what (unknown things) happened in the year and a half or so since her last on screen scene.
    I agree about whther it informs us of Hilgya's character. My question was just to clarify my understanding of your overall point. I'll admit to being somewhat... confused by how heated the argument was getting.

    Related, to GreyWolf: would it be fair to say that you hold the safety of your.children, hypothetical or otherwise, as being of greater importance than pretty much any other possible consideration?
    Last edited by georgie_leech; 2017-12-07 at 06:15 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Sad to see Hilgya this bitter about what happened, but hey, if familiarity breeds piercing damage, I'm not about to correct her until after the problem is dealt with.

    Meanwhile, Kudzu is a little undead-slayer in the making and he is precious. What's the rule on XP gain for toddlers?
    Last edited by Psychronia; 2017-12-07 at 06:16 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Related, to GreyWolf: would it be fair to say that you hold the safety of your.children, hypothetical or otherwise, as being of greater importance than pretty much any other possible consideration?
    Not necessarily, but I would definitely put not just the safety of my children but of all children above disproportionate revenge for quasi-imagined slights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Quite the opposite, in fact: She outright refused to leave Kudzu out of harm's way. Does she think "a bunch of Thor flunkies" are a bigger threat to Kudzu than a bunch of vampires, or is she not trusting anyone but herself to protect him?
    Based on her reaction I suspect "I am being told what to do and I hate being told what to do, however rational it may be" factors in there somewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    If the vampires had that, they probably would've used it by now... specifically to remove V's Forcecage.
    Once the Forcecage was up, waiting for it to eat up one of Vaarsuvius' actions to dispel was far superior to spending one of their actions dispelling it.

    Also...there's a rather large gap between "at least level 5 and thus able to prepare Dispel Magic" and "realistically able to succeed on a dispelling check against Vaarsuvius."

    Also also, and this one obviates the rest of it but I'm leaving the rest of my post in because shut up that's why, Dispel Magic doesn't work on Forcecage.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

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