The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lkctgo View Post
    Is.... is that baby at the last panel meant to be Belkar's kid.

    It seems half black and they specifically showed that bard girl Jenny he hooked up with.

    The funniest thing about that (if it's really his kid) is that she has apparently already lost little Belkie to the other poker player who's apparently calling with the baby.
    I don't think so, the joke was about on-site child care whoch means that baby's parent(s) aren't available to look after it. Jenny and Hank areprobably here for the same reason the window showing the rain is here : visually reminding her that the Thieves' Guild and the Church of Loki are partners hence why Haley knows this.

    Edit: And showing them in the new art style a bit.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2017-12-07 at 05:57 AM.
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    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Gotta love how delusional Hilgya is being in regards to the "unscrupulous" Durkon. Although given how busted clerics are she probably is right that Kudzu is safest sharing a square with her.
    Delusional? She states facts.
    He did, in fact, cast her aside after he had his fun, and left her to raise the child he had impregnated her with alone.

    That's what he did, and you cannot argue it away, much as you'd like to.

    Her judgement of him is therefore totally justified. Remember that this is everything she knows about him, that he is the sort of man who would have unprotected sex with a woman and then tell her to go back to her husband, knowing full well that the baby won't have the husband's skin colour, even.

    Her assuming that he would therefore willingly become a vampire is a bit exaggerated, sure, but she's understandably bitter about the whole thing.

    Her assumption that he would treat other women the same as he treated her is, however, quite justified.

    Let's be realistic, she has no proof at all that his talk of duty and **** wasn't just a lame excuse on his side for not taking responsibility.


    Edit: And the assumption that Hilgya hates little Kudzu is utterly idiotic. Why would she be carrying around a child she hates? Especially those of you who believe she is completely evil should have realized that yes, babies can be killed, ... assuming you live in a country with a misogynist government that won't let you have an abortion. An abortion being the preferable option that she would have taken FIRST if she didn't want a child by Durkon.
    And even if you, more reasonably, assume that she would not kill a baby: it was stated that the Church of Loki does provide (bad) childcare, and that would have been the perfect way to rid herself of him without even committing a crime.
    Last edited by Themrys; 2017-12-07 at 06:53 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Exclamation Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Wow, Hilgaya totally changed her personality. She's a complete bitch now. Plus she lacks empathy, the ability to put herself in other people's shoes. She can't understand why Durkon left her even though it was blatantly obvious. She might not agree with honor culture but damn she was raised in it and should at the very least understand it, if only to corrupt more dwarves. She's a cleric of Loki the Deceiver and she calls him unscrupulous. She also can't figure out that the other dwarf chick might not be Durkon's girlfriend. Projecting her own emotions on other people all over the place.

    She's also willing to endanger the life of her child just so she can satisfy her emotional needs. Wow, Hilgaya is a real piece of work. What a terrible person. I would say I'm looking forward to her coming to a bad end, but then Durkon's child would be orphaned, and having a single mother is bad enough already for kids. Well, I say it's about time we had an actual evil cleric instead of fun-n-games Malack. Let's get some capital E evil in the strip. Too many evil characters are nice people, Redcloak with his 'evil but for a good cause' crap, Tarquin with his 'affably evil' and Belkar with his 'funny sociopath' act.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    Well, I say it's about time we had an actual evil cleric instead of fun-n-games Malack. Let's get some capital E evil in the strip. Too many evil characters are nice people, Redcloak with his 'evil but for a good cause' crap, Tarquin with his 'affably evil' and Belkar with his 'funny sociopath' act.
    Interesting take.
    I think she's more chaotic than evil. Maybe "chaotic angry" for pseudo-alignment.

    Also, about Loki's clerics turning undead, and Loki's scriptures addressing undead in unfavorable terms:

    His daughter Hel seems to be good with undead. Loki and Hel seem to have a bad relationship.
    Is this Loki/Hel tension an allusion to rebellious children and the whole "Goth" thing that an unfortunate number of teenagers went through a few decades ago (and I guess some still do?) Rich alluded to that as a phase Haley went through as a teen in an early strip regarding the rebellious goblin teenagers.

    @Ruck: my estimation on "why Kudzu" is informed by the homages paid by comic artists to one another. (Scott Kurtz was (for example) very fond of Berk Breathed's Bloom County strip, and wrote up some blog posts about that). I am pretty sure that's the way to bet, though the "grows fast as a weed" is a reference to how quick kids grow, or certainly was one when I was in my youth. Perhaps it's a double reference.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-12-07 at 07:15 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PrexotGoldenPi View Post
    There's one small problem with that. In OOTS #603, the cleric of Loki says "I was on temple duty. I've got healing, mostly." If all clerics were Positive Energy channeling and could spontaneously cast healing spells, then why would clerics on temple duty prepare healing?
    Or maybe it's

    "All clerics of Loki may (rather than must) choose the Turn Undead option rather than Rebuke Undead, when taking their first level of Cleric, regardless of alignment"

    In general, this does support the notion that Hilgya, Loki, or both are Evil, and that there is a special exception to the standard rules on Turn/Rebuke, here.

    Because, if both were some kind of Neutral, there would be no need to specify that Loki has a special "eww gross" attitude to undead.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-12-07 at 07:15 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    Wow, Hilgaya totally changed her personality. She's a complete bitch now.
    Wait what? Why does this forum automatically censor the colloquial word for feces, but lets misogynist slurs stand? Where is the logic there?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Wow. Hilgya is deeply stupid, or possibly just a total narcissist. No wonder she hung out with Nale.

    (I know this isn't news, but I'd forgotten how bad she was)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    Wow, Hilgaya totally changed her personality. She's a complete bitch now. Plus she lacks empathy, the ability to put herself in other people's shoes. She can't understand why Durkon left her even though it was blatantly obvious. She might not agree with honor culture but damn she was raised in it and should at the very least understand it, if only to corrupt more dwarves. She's a cleric of Loki the Deceiver and she calls him unscrupulous. She also can't figure out that the other dwarf chick might not be Durkon's girlfriend. Projecting her own emotions on other people all over the place.

    She's also willing to endanger the life of her child just so she can satisfy her emotional needs. Wow, Hilgaya is a real piece of work. What a terrible person. I would say I'm looking forward to her coming to a bad end, but then Durkon's child would be orphaned, and having a single mother is bad enough already for kids. Well, I say it's about time we had an actual evil cleric instead of fun-n-games Malack. Let's get some capital E evil in the strip. Too many evil characters are nice people, Redcloak with his 'evil but for a good cause' crap, Tarquin with his 'affably evil' and Belkar with his 'funny sociopath' act.
    I'm confused by the notion that "being a jerk" is capital-E Evil, but "planning slaughter of genocidal proportions while serving tea to his guests" is not worthy of capitalization.

    Anyway, I don't think what we see of Hilgya in this strip is inconsistent with what we had already seen of her. We didn't see much, and what we saw could be interpreted in different ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Delusional? She states facts.
    He did, in fact, cast her aside after he had his fun, and left her to raise the child he had impregnated her with alone.

    That's what he did, and you cannot argue it away, much as you'd like to.

    Her judgement of him is therefore totally justified. Remember that this is everything she knows about him, that he is the sort of man who would have unprotected sex with a woman and then tell her to go back to her husband, knowing full well that the baby won't have the husband's skin colour, even.
    Missing in your analysis: the fact that Hilgya hid potentially very important information from Durkon (namely, that she was married) when she hit on him. Of course many people, particularly Lawful dwarves, would consider it a deal-breaker. Spinning Durkon's reaction as "he tossed her aside after he had his fun" is delusional, and completely in line with Hilgya's characterization.
    Last edited by hrožila; 2017-12-07 at 07:39 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    As a new dad I compleatly relate to "Now come on. if we're going, lets go. I just fed him and I want to get this done before he get hungry again." Just change the Pronoun and it could be me with my daughter on a game day.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Wait what? Why does this forum automatically censor the colloquial word for feces, but lets misogynist slurs stand? Where is the logic there?
    From the forum rules :
    Excessive Use of Profanity
    Most profanity is censored by our filter, though a few mild terms (generally those that appear in the comic) and words that have both a benign meaning and a profane or offensive one, are not.
    "Bitch" appears in the comic and has a benign meaning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    biggrin Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Anyway, I don't think what we see of Hilgya in this strip is inconsistent with what we had already seen of her.
    She came across as quite affable and cute in her first appearance. Even when she was portrayed as trying to murder her husband. She's lacking that now, bigtime.

    lets misogynist slurs stand? Where is the logic there?
    LOL triggered.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    She came across as quite affable and cute in her first appearance. Even when she was portrayed as trying to murder her husband. She's lacking that now, bigtime.
    People get angry, Steven.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Go, Hilgya go!

    She's had a long time to get angry about the dwarf that left her so I look forward to their reunion.
    Great work, Giant!


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    "Leave my Rakkoon alone!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
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    That knewst the very bottom of my soul,
    That almost mightst have coined me into gold
    Wouldst thou have practiced on me for thy use?
    Supa Songs about me

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    I find this strip hilarious, from Hilgya portraying Durkon as some sorf of a Casanova, to the little Kudzu turning undead (and Belkar is always funny).

    Yes, Hilgya seems a bit more bitter than the last time, where she made her debut with the: "Say hello to the nice guys" and "I'm sorry about this".
    One could argue that no one tried to say her what to do, last time, as Roy has tried to do now
    But really someone did say her what to do: Durkon. And when Durkon said her what to do, she didn't reply flipping him, but running away crying.

    I guess raising a child on her own and at the same time leveling up turning undead made her develop a stronger personality.
    Last edited by Dr.Zero; 2017-12-07 at 08:12 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Edit: And the assumption that Hilgya hates little Kudzu is utterly idiotic. Why would she be carrying around a child she hates?
    I really don't see how you expect anyone to be able to answer that question without derailing the thread into discussing actual child abuse.

    Coupled with the needlessly inflammatory tone, I'll leave your question unanswered. Just wanted you to know why.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    I finally know the name of the plant my mother calls 'The Pod People Plant'. Those strange southerners just let the things take over


    Good thing i am back in the chilly embrace of the north

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    At first I thought 'wow Hilgya's gotten unlikeably bitter, Roy's gonna take her to task if she goes on like that', but then I thought 'she's had over a year of stewing on this. She's had a year to skew the facts, sharpen the axe, cast blame onto the absent father. And even if her view of Durkon doesn't add up with the information she had at the time, she wouldn't be the first person to misread into an argument and pick out the info which supports her demonisation while forgetting or ignoring the info which runs against that.'

    Still think Roy's gonna take her to task, though.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    From the forum rules :

    "Bitch" appears in the comic and has a benign meaning.
    It does not appear in the comic with a benign meaning, though, it appears there as misogynist slur. And its only de-facto use is as misogynist slur. People on the forums don't talk about female dogs that often.

    And while I am too lazy to search for it, I do think the word sh*t appears in the comic, too, (as I would be surprised if someone managed to write an entire webcomic without it) and it is really not offensive to anyone.
    Last edited by Themrys; 2017-12-07 at 08:36 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eilandesq View Post
    --I hope young Kudzu has improved evasion and some decent DEX save bonuses, or this will end badly;
    Kudzu, like all pre-4ed characters, does not have a DEX save and thus no bonuses to it.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    It does not appear in the comic with a benign meaning, though, it appears there as misogynist slur.

    And while I am too lazy to search for it, I do think the word sh*t appears in the comic, too, (as I would be surprised if someone managed to write an entire webcomic without it) and it is really not offensive to anyone.
    So what? It appears in the comic so censoring it in the forum would not make sense. It has a benign meaning so censoring it could theoritically hinder polite discussion.
    I'm against censoring swear words except in places when you expect to find children but these rules seem coherent and reasonnable to me.

    Best I could find was "shi-" moments before Yokyok death.
    People tend to go for "crap" or stunned silence in this comic.

    EDIT: Oh and it is also used against males in the comic so the mysoginistic part of "it appears there as misogynist slur" is debatable.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2017-12-07 at 08:41 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Michaeler View Post
    I really don't see how you expect anyone to be able to answer that question without derailing the thread into discussing actual child abuse.

    Coupled with the needlessly inflammatory tone, I'll leave your question unanswered. Just wanted you to know why.
    If you don't want to talk about child abuse, then you shouldn't have brought up such a ridiculous idea, because it is clearly utterly nonsensical and you know it. If you can only defend your speculations by talking about things you don't want to talk about then you should not have brought it up, plain and simple.

    Trying to pretend that I am the unreasonable one here will not help you, it is plain for all to see that all those nonsensical attempts to revile Hilgya are motivated by deepseated misogyny.


    Edit: And it shows how very misogynist many people here are that you are so very, very keen and willing to jump to assumptions of child abuse when a high-level cleric in a D&D based comic says that her child is safest if staying with her, but happily, willingly, and passionately deny that forcing a woman into marriage means to want her raped, and that telling a woman to return to a forced marriage is telling her to get raped again and again, and again.

    You apply real world logics when it suits you (i.e. when a high level cleric wants to keep her child with her rather than leaving it among strangers) but ferociously deny them when they would make your beloved Durkon look bad.

    You willingly, happily believe that Hilgya, a woman who FAILED to murder ONE husband she was FORCED to marry, would mistreat her child, when Tarquin, a multiple murderer of wives he himself had chosen, is at the very least implied to not have mistreated his son (beyond raising him to be evil).

    Your misogyny is showing.
    Last edited by Themrys; 2017-12-07 at 08:52 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    So what? It appears in the comic so censoring it in the forum would not make sense.
    For Erfworld, at least, The Giant pointed out that yes, a word appears in that comic (hosted here) that isn't allowed on the forum, and no, it being filtered on the forum, is not going to change.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...6&postcount=13

    Presumably, the same would apply to the very occasional OOTS swear that would be filtered.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    And its only de-facto use is as misogynist slur. People on the forums don't talk about female dogs that often.
    Not going to argue about the automatic censorship, only pointing out that the "benign" meaning is not limited to the female dogs, but it includes slang where "son of a bitch" is used as equivalent of "crazily heroic/badass". As "The son of a bitch did it!" (for example, in Independence Day, when the drunk dude destroys one of the motherships, as far as I can remember about the english version).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    And even if her view of Durkon doesn't add up with the information she had at the time, she wouldn't be the first person to misread into an argument and pick out the info which supports her demonisation while forgetting or ignoring the info which runs against that.'
    I guess she'd fit in at the GiTP forum, would she not?
    Hilgya is deeply stupid
    No.
    or possibly just a total narcissist. No wonder she hung out with Nale.
    Yes. A general impression conveyed in the few strips that she's been in is self centered. (See also Belkar, Captain of the schooner Self Centered ... ). She's not had all that much screen time, and her initial few strips demonstrated that she has the capacity to be nice to people, and even sweet.

    Maybe we can allow for this revolutionary concept: she is drawn in two dimensions, but Rich has put some thought into her situation and character, and she's a bit more three dimensional than is being allowed for so far during the discussions centered on her return to the screen.

    If her general outlook on life is self centered and a bit chaotic, and maybe even impulsive, then her various reactions to how life's consequences turn out seem to be consistent.

    As to her choice to keep Kudzu with her: Hilgya isn't the first woman ever to tell people "don't tell me how to take care of my child." Whether her judgment is sound or not is a different matter, but the profound connection between mother and child could easily inform her very protective point of view. (Unlike RL mothers, she has magical spells to assist her in protecting her child). Just because she's mad at Durkon does not mean that she takes it out on her child.
    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    If you don't want to talk about child abuse, then you shouldn't have brought up such a ridiculous idea, because it is clearly utterly nonsensical and you know it. If you can only defend your speculations by talking about things you don't want to talk about then you should not have brought it up, plain and simple.
    Tone sometimes comes across, even in text based discourse. Belligerent tone does not invite people to engage. (I have had that pointed out to me a few times on the 5e forum when my tone carried a hard edge).
    ... it is plain for all to see that all those nonsensical attempts to revile Hilgya are motivated by deepseated misogyny.
    Mind reading over the internet is not generally a credible form of discourse. Your distaste for how bitch was used in that post is understood. I personally don't think it was necessary.
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    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Why do people keep saying she could have found a wizard to cast sending and contact him?

    Isn't that a clerical spell?
    Durkon had it (Elan contacting Julio)
    The Cleric of Loki had it (Contacting Durkon when the party was split)


    So Hilga could have done it if she wanted to. Durkon wasn't under the Cloister spell.





    Also, I'm guessing that the panel with the baby in the thieves guild is a flashback or something? It seems like it's being implied that's something Haley saw in her past. So I doubt that's Belkar junior.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SlashDash View Post
    Also, I'm guessing that the panel with the baby in the thieves guild is a flashback or something? It seems like it's being implied that's something Haley saw in her past. So I doubt that's Belkar junior.
    Or it's a current example of behavior she knows is typical.
    Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?

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  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Kish's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Hilgya's understanding of other people's motivations is as keen as ever, I see.

    I wonder how long it took her to decide what Durkon had said to her was just an excuse.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  28. - Top - End - #178
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I wonder how long it took her to decide what Durkon had said to her was just an excuse.
    If we are setting up a betting pool, I'll suggest either sometime in the second trimester, or during the first bout of morning sickness.
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    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Kish's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Looking at this strictly in terms of what it says about Hilgya without any real-world assumptions, it seems like, here and with her forced marriage to Ivan, she starts off with legitimate reasons to be upset (in the last discussion thread someone summed up the Durkon/Hilgya confrontation as "it looks like he's about to object to her trying to murder Ivan, but instead he responds to Hilgya's Chaotic Crazy with Lawful Crazy," which sounds about right to me), but instead of sitting down and figuring out what those reasons to be upset are and who it makes sense to blame, she decides the person in closest proximity is gratuitously evil and stops thinking about it.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    she decides the person in closest proximity is gratuitously evil and stops thinking about it.
    Are you referring to Minrah, Roy, or Durkon?
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-12-07 at 09:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

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