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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Good or Best Gish?

    I just need class ideas. Homebrew is fine. I already have a race idea (high elf, for the cantrip) so I'm good there, but race ideas are fine too.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    One level dip into hexblade warlock lets you use CHA for your weapon attack. A second level gets you invocations, allowing you to take Agonizing Blast for excellent ranged damage. A single dip into cleric nets you shields and medium armor (at least) or heavy armor for certain divine domains. From there you have a wide swath of options, and can still get 9th level spells if you get your remaining 17 levels in one class. Bladesinger wizard, blade pact warlock, and swords bard were all made with gishing in mind. Any of the half caster classes or third caster archetypes can make pretty decent martial-leaning gishes.

    Booming blade and green flame blade are also excellent gish cantrips, but don't allow you to make use of an extra attack or dual wielding.

    Due to hexblade, you would probably do better to focus on CHA based casters (which is most of them anyway), but you can ask your DM if they'll let you use INT or WIS for the hexblade's features. Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight + Wizard could be a good INT gish combo, and Cleric or Druid + Ranger would work well for WIS gish. Shillelagh also works well for WIS gishes. Fighter + any caster can make a decent gish.

    What are you really looking for? What do you want to do? Do you want heavy armor and shields? Extra attacks? 5th level spells? 9th level spells? Lots of HP?

    Remember that the action economy will still limit you. You can attack with a weapon or cast a spell, but not both, which is why it's generally better to be really good at one of those. Now, what you can do is fish for spells and class features that allow you to utilize bonus actions and reactions so that you always have something to do, rather than accumulating a wide set of options that all use your action and are thus limited to one per round.

    The other thing to consider is when your abilities refresh. The fighter's Second Wind and Action Surge both refresh on short or long rests, so fighter could gish well with warlock, who's spell slots also refresh on short rests. Fighter 11/Warlock 9 gets you 3 attacks and 5th level spells, and you can dump STR and DEX and focus exclusively on CHA and CON. Most of your features also refresh after a short rest. Paladin 11/Warlock 9 also works pretty well, getting you Improved Divine Smite for extra radiant damage on each attack, but Paladin 6/Warlock 14 also gets you some good options like Lifedrinker for extra damage from CHA on each weapon attack and all of the hexblade patron features.

    There's a lot of options for gishing.

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    The Cats's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    How do the weapon cantrips interfere with dual wielding?
    Last edited by The Cats; 2017-12-07 at 01:19 AM.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    How do the weapon cantrips interfere with dual wielding?
    Quote Originally Posted by Player's Handbook, page 195
    Two Weapon Fighting
    When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in your other hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sword Coast Adventurer Guide, page 142, 143
    As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails.
    When you use booming blade or green flame blade, you use your action to cast the cantrip. Dual wielding specifically requires you to take the Attack action, not just make a weapon attack. Same goes for Polearm Master's bonus action attack, as well as the monk's Martial Arts bonus action attack.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinGuy View Post
    I just need class ideas. Homebrew is fine. I already have a race idea (high elf, for the cantrip) so I'm good there, but race ideas are fine too.
    Not enough information here. What do you want to do?

    Do you want to frontline gish? Do you want to control the battlefield using spells and then take them out in melee combat? Do you want to use spells for utility and shoot arrows at them?
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyBlack View Post
    Not enough information here. What do you want to do?

    Do you want to frontline gish? Do you want to control the battlefield using spells and then take them out in melee combat? Do you want to use spells for utility and shoot arrows at them?
    He wants to gish them with his gishy gishness.

    My guess is fight as good as a fighter, but still cast 9th level spells.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    He wants to gish them with his gishy gishness.

    My guess is fight as good as a fighter, but still cast 9th level spells.
    Straight Hexblade then? Spam Darkness + Devilís Sight?
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    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Homebrew? Time for some self promotion!

    But yeah, probably hexblade with some sorcerer thrown in if you feel like it.
    Roll for it
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Homebrew's fine?

    Check out MFoV's Warmage class.
    Cantrips fer days, and 5 possible subclasses to enjoy.

    As soon as I find a DM willing to let me rock one, I'm taking that chance. The idea's got me all giddy just thinking about the fun I could have with that.
    And no, I don't think it's OP. The MFoV guys have a habit of playtesting things for balance before they release something.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    *snip*.

    Fighter 11/Warlock 9 gets you 3 attacks and 5th level spells, and you can dump STR and DEX and focus exclusively on CHA and CON. *snip*.

    There's a lot of options for gishing.
    *ahem* Can't dump both strength and dexterity for fighter. One must be at least 13 to multiclass.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Eldritch Knight 12/Sorcerer 8 -> Shadow Blade

    3 attacks with 4d8+Dex+Dueling
    Quicken Booming Blade or GFB: 7d8+dex+Dueling+ Cantrip Effect
    or Quicken any spell.

    Action Surge:
    Twin Booming Blade for 2x 7d8+Dex+Dueling + BB effect

    --

    Twin Booming Blade for 2x 7d8+Dex +Dueling+ BB effect
    War Magic: bonus attack 4d8+Dex+Dueling

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    Ellisthion's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    When you use booming blade or green flame blade, you use your action to cast the cantrip. Dual wielding specifically requires you to take the Attack action, not just make a weapon attack. Same goes for Polearm Master's bonus action attack, as well as the monk's Martial Arts bonus action attack.
    You can get around this if you're Hasted: the extra attack from Haste still counts as an Attack action. So you can do GFB + 1 attack + offhand attack.

    Bit niche but it works.
    Last edited by Ellisthion; 2017-12-07 at 08:04 AM.
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    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    College of Blades/Valor Bards, Dragon Sorcerers with Booming/Green Flame Blade, and Pact of the Blade/Hexblade Warlocks are probably the three main options. Paladin and/or Hexblade Warlock dips optional.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2017-12-07 at 08:32 AM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    If a Holy Gish is acceptable, there is always an Arcana Cleric. Take Booming Blade or GFB as one of your Wizard Cantrips, you've got Medium Armor and Shield proficiency, and you've got all of the great Cleric goodness.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinGuy View Post
    I just need class ideas. Homebrew is fine. I already have a race idea (high elf, for the cantrip) so I'm good there, but race ideas are fine too.
    This isn't 3e, there really are not 'bests' any more, and good depends on what you want and what you are willing to give up.

    The first question is what do you want your gish to do? If you just want them to be able to fight, and have a bit of a magic flavor, then you're already there. You can be a perfectly good 'magic assisted fighting type' by being a high-elven fighter (not even eldritch knight or arcane archer) and using that cantrip for flavor--adding feats (which you can afford, since fighters get extra) on things like ritual caster of magic initiate if you desire. Further down the road to magic there are the casting martials like eldritch knight or paladin, who have 1/3 and 1/2 casting, respectively. Even further down that line are full caster classes like bard and warlock who you can add combat ability back in through archetype selection (pact of blade/hexblade for warlocks, college of swords or valor bards, etc.), or multiclassing. Clerics (the original gish) too, are full casters with frontline ability.

    The second question is how much of your abilities do you want to be expendable resources? Do you want a decent continuous attack, with spells and so forth as backup for hard fights, or do you expect to be able to rest up enough that you can burn spells in every fight. A bog-standard cleric is a good example of this: with spirit guardians, spiritual weapon, and some basic attack (weapon or cantrip), a bog standard cleric can contribute greatly to combat... in every fight where they can burn a 2nd+ level spell and 3rd+ level spell. Put them on their eighth fight of the day and they are swinging a single attack (or moderately powerful cantrip) every round and bemoaning the fact that they spent all their spells. So you need to decide what kind of resource flow you want.

    After that, it's mostly details. SCAG cantrips make getting more than one attack at levels 5+ nice but not required. Hexblade has made using your casting stat as your main combat stat possible even with multiattack builds--before then getting shillelagh (in the right stat) along with multiple attacks without throttling dips was mostly a rabbit hole. Right now there is a huge amount of discussion about (half-)elven hexblades using Elven Accuracy feat with GWM. How it all will shake out, I don't know. Gishing is inherently a niche subsection and I think most parties will eventually settle down to mostly a martial and wizard instead of two gishes.

    The most important thing, is to pick something that represents what you wanted to do in the first place. So pick a theme/concept and then a playstyle (recharge rate just being the most obvious part).

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    mephnick's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    If a Holy Gish is acceptable, there is always an Arcana Cleric. Take Booming Blade or GFB as one of your Wizard Cantrips, you've got Medium Armor and Shield proficiency, and you've got all of the great Cleric goodness.
    I'm playing a Fighter 1/ Arcana Cleric 5 right now and I'm enjoying it immensely.

    Shield Guardians + Plate + Shield + Weapon cantrips + cleric utility. It scratches the Gish itch.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    I'm playing a Fighter 1/ Arcana Cleric 5 right now and I'm enjoying it immensely.

    Shield Guardians + Plate + Shield + Weapon cantrips + cleric utility. It scratches the Gish itch.
    I'm rocking a Fighter 1/Death Cleric 2 in a game. Working up to Plate and Spirit Guardians. Using a Halberd/Glaive primarily, but got a sword and shield for when I need some extra tanking potential.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Iíd vote sorcadin as still the all around best.

    Based on one campaign where Iíve seen, a GWM darkness, Elven Accuracy bladelock next to a sorcadin , Iíd say that hexblade is still a hair behind (not on damage, but on enough other things)

    Iíve never tried or seen it but vhuman with PAM on nature cleric 1, gloomstalker 5, then continue as desired can work as a wis only build. It looks mechanically very cool. I wonít play it because it works as a quarter staff and shield build, which I find distasteful. Those without such reservations might find it quite effective.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    I recommend Stone Sorcerer 1/Hexblade Warlock 3/Sorcerer X
    The trick here is to use twin Booming Blade, quickening if you have more foes or want to do some fireball (quicken the non-cantrip, so that your main action is a cantrip which can be metamagicked).
    As others said above, go darkness + devil's eye for easy defense and advantage on attacks. Combine this with a whip and warcaster to get easy opportunity attacks (due to range you'll have to do eldritch blast instead of Booming Blade). Note you don't need to be proficient in the whip or have a good strength/dex in order for opportunity attacks to trigger.
    Hexblade keeps you SAD and gives a nice damage boost.
    Stone Sorcerer gives you decent armor, health, and a great defender power.
    More spell points means that you can do quicken more often. More spells means that you can use the warlock version of smite for less efficient nova potential.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Good or Best Gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnirbear View Post
    *ahem* Can't dump both strength and dexterity for fighter. One must be at least 13 to multiclass.
    You'd want a Dex 14 anyways for Medium Armor. So that should be fine. That said, Fighter 11/Warlock 9 means you're not getting Lifedrinker. You're better off playing Polearm Warlock or something instead, given you won't get 3rd attack for a long while.

    Honestly, the best 5e gish (not using Unearthed Arcana) is either a straight Paladin or Sorcadin. Paladin has d10 hit dice, +Cha to saves, and makes great use of action economy (use spell slots for smiting) while still retaining strong utility and spells. And it always keeps getting better abilities. Sorcadin is pretty cool too, depending on the levels you are playing at Pal 6/Sor X and Pal 2/Sor X are both very viable options. You can buff yourself, use Quicken Spell to cast spells while still attacking, or using things like Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade to attack even more.

    Using Unearthed Arcana, agree that Hexblade/Stone Sorcerer is extremely powerful. I'd probably just go Hexblade 2, because you don't need Blade Pact (just go sword and shield for the extra AC). But you can cast quickened EB at range, then teleport to hit an Aegis target and start smacking people with GFB/BB. And you only have to raise Cha and Con. Variant Human, Warcaster, Sorc 1 for Con save, then Hexblade 2, then Sorc the rest, and you are good to go.

    If homebrew is allowed, I'll plug two of my own in my sig below. Spellsword is a full class, a 5e half caster gish built around simultaneous casting and attacking, with 3 subclasses (including one inspired by 4e swordmage). Oath of the Arcane adds a dash of arcane goodness to the paladin without too many substantial class changes.

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