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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    After many alignment discussions I have started to feel that Lawful vs Chaos doesn't work.

    Intentionally being Chaotic is inherently a broken concept, that is extremely difficult to perform. Which is why we often end up with Chaotic Stupid characters.

    A Chaotic person can sometimes be perceived as someone who intentionally goes against the Law.
    or Someone who lives on whims. Neither of which are very practical.

    I came across Passion vs Logic the other day, and saw it as a better way to describe people.

    A Passionate person can have any ideals, but they do so with following their gut. They do what they feel is right, what needs to be done. They follow their heart on matters.
    While a Logical person attempts to calculate the situation in order to achieve their goals.

    I'm not a great 'topic creator' to fully explain the idea.

    However, what are your thoughts on using Passion vs Logic instead of Lawful vs Chaotic

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    I think that you can be passionate about following the law, and you can be logical about following the law. You can also be passionate about applying logic, and you can find logic in chaos (see: Chaos Theory).

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Way i've always seen is it Good - Evil is a focus on others v. self.

    Law and Chaos has to do with ... well, which method benefits your focus more. Order and control, or individuality and intuition.
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    I think that you can be passionate about following the law, and you can be logical about following the law. You can also be passionate about applying logic, and you can find logic in chaos (see: Chaos Theory).
    I may not have explained it clearly, but the point was to replace Lawful vs Chaos with Passion vs Logic

    So yea, You can be Passionate or Logical about following the Law or imposing the Law

    You can also be Passionate and Logical about equally, which is what Neutral is for (^_^)

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Personally, I disagree, because one can just as well argue "being intentionally not logical is a broken concept".

    Also, with the descriptions you give: "a Passionate person can have any ideals, but they do so with following their gut. They do what they feel is right, what needs to be done. They follow their heart on matters.
    While a Logical person attempts to calculate the situation in order to achieve their goals.", you're basically just changing the name of the alignment without changing the alignments.

    Here is what 5e says about lawful and chaotic alignments:

    Lawful good (LG) creatures can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society. Gold dragons, paladins, and most dwarves are lawful good.

    Chaotic good (CG) creatures act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect. Copper dragons, many elves, and unicorns are chaotic good.

    Lawful neutral (LN) individuals act in accordance with law, tradition, or personal codes. Many monks and some wizards are lawful neutral

    Chaotic neutral (CN) creatures follow their whims, holding their personal freedom above all else. Many barbarians and rogues, and some bards, are chaotic neutral.

    Lawful evil (LE) creatures methodically take what they want, within the limits of a code of tradition, loyalty, or order. Devils, blue dragons, and hobgoblins are Lawful evil.

    Chaotic evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust. Demons, red dragons, and orcs are chaotic evil.
    The problem of chaotic stupid isn't the chaos, it's the stupidity.

    I might have agreed with you it was a good idea if you were talking about 3.X alignments, but 5e has already dealt with the question enough that it's a non-issue.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    After many alignment discussions I have started to feel that Lawful vs Chaos doesn't work.

    Intentionally being Chaotic is inherently a broken concept, that is extremely difficult to perform. Which is why we often end up with Chaotic Stupid characters.

    A Chaotic person can sometimes be perceived as someone who intentionally goes against the Law.
    or Someone who lives on whims. Neither of which are very practical.

    I came across Passion vs Logic the other day, and saw it as a better way to describe people.

    A Passionate person can have any ideals, but they do so with following their gut. They do what they feel is right, what needs to be done. They follow their heart on matters.
    While a Logical person attempts to calculate the situation in order to achieve their goals.

    I'm not a great 'topic creator' to fully explain the idea.

    However, what are your thoughts on using Passion vs Logic instead of Lawful vs Chaotic
    I can see your arguement;

    Law and Chaos are very broad concepts however with a lot of subcategories.

    In a sence, you could more safelly call them "Order and Freedom".

    Lawful Good (Orderly Good) See the order as a means to protect the people from people who abuse their freedom for evil reasons or for personal gain disreguarding they might hurt others indirectly in the progress.

    Lawful Neutral (Orderly Neutral) Strongly believe in order as a foundation of civilisation and that it is what makes us diferent than animals.

    Lawful Evil (Orderly Evil) Believe in the social ladder, and that order is the maens to not only climb in the social ladder, but also make those below stay there, as they want to take their place (or they perceive them as such) and those above fall, in order to take their place. That said, they respect those above them untill they can ensure they can take their place in a lawful way, as they see them as pillars of society that keeps the savages away.

    Chaotic Good (Freedom Good) Strongly believes that order opreses his freedom to act as he wants individually. Believes that the law is flawed and has made mistakes, causing suffering to innocents. Wants to protect people from evil tyrants who abuse their laws for selfish reasons and cause people suffering.

    Chaotic Neutral (Freedom Neutral) Strongly believes that order opreses his freedom to act as he wants individually. Does not want to have to answear to guards and millitia about where he went for a drink last night or were he bought that dagger. Want to be left alone to his buisnes which reguards himself and himself alone.

    Chaotic Evil (Freedom Evil) Strongly believes that order opreses his freedom to act as he wants individually. Does not want to have to answear to guards and millitia about what he did last night. Wich usually involves stabbing people, and selling their organs in taverns, saying it's "quallity bacon". This one is a bad seed, who wants to do what he wants without answering to anyone, and if left unchecked, the world would never be the same.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    I just answer a short version of Myers-Briggs in the guise of each of my characters to get their "alignment."
    Last edited by IronMike; 2017-12-07 at 06:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    I actually dislike Passion vs Logic more, due to having a liking for passionately logical characters (not characters in between the two, but characters who are passionate about being logical).

    Plus, Spock points out how weird seperating the two is in many situations, when he tells Kirk that it was stupid to accept promotion because he's not passionate about his new position. Sometimes the passionate decision is the logical one.

    Plus, in many ways, being too far into either extreme leads to stupidity. While this is most obvious from the passion side (acting without thinking means you cannot actually know if this course of action is the best way to gain benefits), but it does exist on the logical side (over analysis can stop you from acting, especially when the fact that you act is more important).

    Strangely, I think that the introduction of Good and Evil is the main problem with the Law-Chaos axis. It used to essentially be where you stood on a metaphysical level (kind of), did you agree with those who want an ordered world, or a world of potential.

    Ironically I think one of the best Chaotic characters I've seen in fiction is Tsukasa from Dr Stone. He does legitimately believe that a more lawless society would be better, at least to a point, and can reason his position rather well, but it also shows that to the more Lawful main character the implications are not worthwhile.
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post

    Plus, Spock points out how weird seperating the two is in many situations, when he tells Kirk that it was stupid to accept promotion because he's not passionate about his new position. Sometimes the passionate decision is the logical one.
    Err, there are many instances where the Vulcan way of logic is show to be imperfect or not actually different form the passion-including way, but in this instance Spock's argument wasn't "you're not passionate about your new job, you shouldn't have taken it" but more "you were the best at your old job, it's a waste to sacrifice it for a job you don't enjoy as much and where you are not as good"

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Err, there are many instances where the Vulcan way of logic is show to be imperfect or not actually different form the passion-including way, but in this instance Spock's argument wasn't "you're not passionate about your new job, you shouldn't have taken it" but more "you were the best at your old job, it's a waste to sacrifice it for a job you don't enjoy as much and where you are not as good"
    Yeah, but his passion for being a starship captain was a part of it (and makes a lot of logical sense, him not enjoying/being passionate for his new job lowers his performance). Vulcan logic is also relatively weird, bit the actually logical parts are relatively sound, they have problems with people skills (Vulcans are also another example of taking logic a bit too far compared to passion, note that the 'better ones' are not alogical, just more likely to accept that sometimes the 'emotional' response is the correct one).
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    I'm reading Passion vs Logic as Romanticism vs. Enlightenment. Would you rather know, or feel?

    Which works great for a personality, but is kinda crappy as a cosmological construct.

    So my question is, what are YOU using alignment for? If it's a personality/motivation matrix, then passion, or enlightnement, or conscientiousness would totally be appropriate. If it's about framing the cosmos, it's going to be a very Romantic type of setting.

    Order vs. Chaos, or Deterministic vs. Probabilistic is going to work better. Should the world be more organized, controlled, perfectly predictable (a system of government with consistent rules), or a world that is inherently chance driven, where "highly likely" is the best guarantee of an outcome (government by the individual rulings of each Judge, Council, or Master) or somewhere in between.
    Why yes, Warlock is my solution for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    Active Abilities are great because you - the player - are demonstrating your Dwarvenness or Elfishness. You're not passively a dwarf, you're actively dwarfing your way through obstacles.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Yeah, but his passion for being a starship captain was a part of it (and makes a lot of logical sense, him not enjoying/being passionate for his new job lowers his performance). Vulcan logic is also relatively weird, bit the actually logical parts are relatively sound, they have problems with people skills (Vulcans are also another example of taking logic a bit too far compared to passion, note that the 'better ones' are not alogical, just more likely to accept that sometimes the 'emotional' response is the correct one).
    Well, most Vulcans adopt the weird "pragmatic logic tempered by ethics while claiming to reject emotions (while not actually doing so entirely)" way because without extreme mental discipline a Vulcan is an incredibly violent and chaotic murder machine. And let's not get into the sex parts.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Lawful and Chaotic are IMO fine conceptually in 5e. The resources do a good enough job of fleshing out what those mean that (in my experience) they steer people away from lawful stupid/chaotic stupid and towards more nuanced, organic, coherent characters. Especially if you read alignment as descriptive (my character has X characteristics, so she is Y alignment) instead of prescriptive (my character has Y alignment, so she must do action Z).

    IMO, the problem with Lawful and Chaotic is the words themselves. They're decent for encompassing a lot of the traits they're supposed to, but the noise they bring with drowns out a lot of the good work the materials do to steer people away from those frequent misinterpretations. I'm not sure what the best solution is. The concepts they embody are really disparate despite being pretty coherent, and I haven't found a single word that really sums them up. And Law and Chaos have deep roots in D&D.

    As for Passion vs. Logic, I don't think that needs to factor into the alignment system. It's good if players have a sense of how passionate and how logical their characters are, but there are tons of characteristics of varying importance to most if not all characters, and plotting them on the alignment grid doesn't really add anything in my opinion.
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    One weakness of Passion vs Logic is it implies that "logical" characters are intelligent. The classic Lawful Good Paladin would become a Logical and Good Paladin. Not only does it carry less zing to the name, it also implies the Paladin is good at deduction. Let's face it, Int is their dump stat.

    Whereas the Chaotic Evil Demon becomes Passionate and Evil Demon, which brings to mind a Succubus.

    It does describe Chaotic Good better though, as Passionate and Good. And it does more justice to Lawful Evil as Logical and Evil.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    After many alignment discussions I have started to feel that Lawful vs Chaos doesn't work.

    Intentionally being Chaotic is inherently a broken concept, that is extremely difficult to perform. Which is why we often end up with Chaotic Stupid characters.

    A Chaotic person can sometimes be perceived as someone who intentionally goes against the Law.
    or Someone who lives on whims. Neither of which are very practical.

    I came across Passion vs Logic the other day, and saw it as a better way to describe people.

    A Passionate person can have any ideals, but they do so with following their gut. They do what they feel is right, what needs to be done. They follow their heart on matters.
    While a Logical person attempts to calculate the situation in order to achieve their goals.

    I'm not a great 'topic creator' to fully explain the idea.

    However, what are your thoughts on using Passion vs Logic instead of Lawful vs Chaotic
    The problem with Passion vs Logic is
    1) These things are not actually opposed. Indeed one could even say it requires a not insignificant degree of passion in order to train a logical mind. It is not something effortlessly achieved. Likewise, one could question the passion of anyone who can't take something seriously enough to make the effort to reason through it.

    2) An illogical mind is directly inferior to a logical one. No ifs, ands, or buts... the definition of a logical action is one that is more efficacious at accomplishing your goals, regardless of what they are. There's no upside to taking actions that are less effective at getting things done, because, rather obviously, they are less effective at getting things done. Remember that Spock is not a logical character, and is actually something of a poster child for misrepresenting what logic is.

    Having "doesn't do logic" as an alignment is akin to having "doesn't do math" as an alignment.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    2) A logical mind is directly inferior to an illogical one.
    You have it the other way around. :)

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    You have it the other way around. :)
    That was a rather egregious typo -_-

    Corrected.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    I find looking at the PHB Ideals associated with the PHB backgrounds helps give insight to what the developers were thinking, or other than just the one sentence description given for the general (but not required) alignment behavior.

    The first word is a useful summary, but it doesn't necessarily convey the entirety of what they're suggesting. So if you're gonna nitpick go look it up in its entirety first.

    As such, the correct contrast is not Logic vs Passion. It is Logic vs Free Thinking (Hermit), or Logic vs No Limits (Sage).

    Chaotic Ideals from PHB:
    Change, Independence, Freedom, Creativity, Free Thinking, No Limits.

    Lawful Ideals from PHB:
    Tradition, Power*, Fairness, Honor, Community, Logic, Responsibility.

    And of course the (Any) Ideals can work with either:
    Aspiration, (Self-) Honesty**, Destiny, Self-Knowledge, Family, Glory, Self-improvement, Nation.


    *this one is ususual, Power is usually Evil, but for the Acolyte it's Lawful

    ** Entertainer says Honesty, but it pretty clearly means self-honesty, be who you really are.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Talamere, I think you have an interesting concept set up, but in all honesty the system you have proposed will not stop alignment arguements. The logic vs. passion is just as vaguely define as the law vs. Chaos arguement. The conceptions of what is “logical” and what is “passionate” vary from person to person. Here is The new Oxford dictionary’s definition of the words

    Logic: “reasoning conducted or assessed using strict principles of validity
    Passion: “strong and barely controllable emotion”.

    These are broad concepts that can be interpretered a variety of ways. For example, if asked one person what it means to be “logical” they might talk of a fair person who uses reasonable conclusions and careful thought to make the most beneficial possible solution. If I ask the same person what it means to be passionate they would say that someone like that is an unstable scum who would gladly hurt others to fulfill their own selfish desires.

    Now what happens if ask the person next to them what it means to be logical? They may claim that logical is a title given to sinister, misguided and heartless people who are incapable of empathy to justify their own cruel actions. If they were asked what it means to be passionate they would say that passion is the belief that emotions and intuition lead one to make better moral decisions that lead to greater benefits to the world itself.



    By replacing “law vs. chaos” with “logic vs. passion”, you are not stopping any arguements. You will still see intense disagreements with people against a philosophical topic which is not clearly defined. Some people on here have already debated over whether logic vs. passion is mutually exclusive or not. Your system does not solve the issue at hand, it simply redirects it to a slightly different topic.

    In truth, I do not think there is any stopping alignment disputes. Morality and complex philosophies cannot be so easily grouped as a statistic, and that is precisely what alignment does. Subjects such as “good and evi”, “chaos and law” and “logic and passion” are not clearly defined and everyone will hold a different belief on them. If you dislike alignment debates at your table, than ignore alignment. 5e does not need it all accept for a very small amount of corner cases the DM can easily fix . Many tables including my own have ignored it and suffered no setback whatsoever. I am sorry to say this Talamere, your system is an interesting thought experiment but it will fail to solve your objective.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    The problem with Passion vs Logic is
    1) These things are not actually opposed. Indeed one could even say it requires a not insignificant degree of passion in order to train a logical mind. It is not something effortlessly achieved. Likewise, one could question the passion of anyone who can't take something seriously enough to make the effort to reason through it.
    This is probably the biggest problem with it.

    Law and Chaos is just a non-political way of saying conservative and liberal, anyway.
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    In previous games, I've framed Law as Collectivism, and on the other side Chaos as Individualism.

    Neither is perfectly correct; both have valid points; neither is stupid or inferior to the other.

    You can be good or evil independent of how you relate to organizations -- Collectivist Evil exists, and so does Individualist Evil -- there's quite a lot of both, unfortunately.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    A Chaotic person can sometimes be perceived as someone who intentionally goes against the Law.
    or Someone who lives on whims. Neither of which are very practical.
    As another alternative, try Traditional versus Progressive.

    A Lawful character says, "That's the way we've always done it, it was good enough for our fathers, so there's no need to change."

    A Chaotic character says, "We did it that way 100 years ago because things were different 100 years ago, today we need a new way of doing things."

    Also, check out "Are there "Real" Alignments?".

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    This is probably the biggest problem with it.

    Law and Chaos is just a non-political way of saying conservative and liberal, anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    In previous games, I've framed Law as Collectivism, and on the other side Chaos as Individualism.

    Neither is perfectly correct; both have valid points; neither is stupid or inferior to the other.

    You can be good or evil independent of how you relate to organizations -- Collectivist Evil exists, and so does Individualist Evil -- there's quite a lot of both, unfortunately.
    This sums up American politics until about 1979... and then poop happened.

    But, to move away from that [scrubbable] offense, to the OPs point... I'm just glad alignment - however you want to describe it - is no longer a straitjacket enforced on specific classes (and to a lesser extent, races).

    Play your character; let the table (and specifically DM) determine through your actions what your alignment is - if it even matters. Gone are the alignment based spells (detecting and affecting). Gone are alignment based planes... mechanically, alignment has no affect, ill or good, on your character.

    I've yet to see anyone gain Inspiration for roleplaying their alignment correctly... though queue the "I have [story]" replies in 3, 2, 1...
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Neither is perfectly correct; both have valid points; neither is stupid or inferior to the other.
    That is a great point!

    Neither Chaos nor Law are automatically the good guys. Or the bad guys.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    That is a great point!

    Neither Chaos nor Law are automatically the good guys. Or the bad guys.
    Thanks!

    IMHO a setting is more interesting when two good, intelligent people can disagree on fundamental values -- and neither of them is objectively dumb, nor objectively wrong.

    Individualism vs. Collectivism isn't the only way to get this type of conflict -- but it's one that's worked well for me, and I think it's pretty harmonious with D&D as a whole -- you'd see individualist Elves who just don't get collectivist Dwarves, and so on.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Individualism vs. Collectivism isn't the only way to get this type of conflict
    Independence vs Responsibility / Community
    Change / Creativity vs Tradition
    Free Thinking vs Logic
    Freedom vs Fairness

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Is it really necessary to find a different framework?

    If anything, alignment is really only useful for the DM anyway, as a way to help determine npc motivations. The dm's got a lot more people to worry about.

    Players should always have agency in their own actions and motivations.
    Last edited by krugaan; 2017-12-07 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Passion and Logic may work well as a dichotomy on the character sheet... but it doesn't hold the same weight on the cosmological scale, an Outer Planes built on a Passion VS Logic vector doesn't come together well. Law and Chaos are personal tendencies, but also powerful cosmic trends between Order and Disorder, Determinism and Free Will, The Larger Group and The Individual... passion and logic may have a place in all of that, but the don't adequately replace it

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    Is it really necessary to find a different framework?

    If anything, alignment is really only useful for the DM anyway, as a way to help determine npc motivations. The dm's got a lot more people to worry about.

    Players should always have agency in their own actions and motivations.
    Alignment is extremely useful to a player as a motivation, if they choose to use it. It gives them a single sentence motivation on overall (but not required) behavior for moral/social situations that integrates handily with other motivations.

    I mean, they could get away without Alignment specifically. Alignment is also about Teams, Us vs Them historically, and has lots of other old edition baggage to boot. But general moral and/or social behavior is a great motivation in and of itself.

    Edit: What's not so useful is when it stops being a players motivation, and instead becomes either a yardstick or a bludgeon other players or the DM use against the player. (Although it's still useful as ground rules for possible kinds of characters a campaign allows as long as it's properly defined.)
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-12-07 at 04:45 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2015

    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Alignment is extremely useful to a player as a motivation, if they choose to use it. It gives them a single sentence motivation on overall (but not required) behavior for moral/social situations that integrates handily with other motivations.

    I mean, they could get away without Alignment specifically. Alignment is also about Teams, Us vs Them historically, and has lots of other old edition baggage to boot. But general moral and/or social behavior is a great motivation in and of itself.

    Edit: What's not so useful is when it stops being a players motivation, and instead becomes either a yardstick or a bludgeon other players or the DM use against the player. (Although it's still useful as ground rules for possible kinds of characters a campaign allows as long as it's properly defined.)
    Yeah, this is true, especially the bolded.

    In 5e alignment is almost entirely pointless, which was the point, I guess.
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

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