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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    woo look at this another discussion about alignment

    The PHB says alignment is your attitude towards society, not your proclivity to wear a penguin hat.

    Chaotic people are libertarians, Lawful people are authoritarian. Simple as that.

    You can still be LOLSORANDUM and be lawful, if your goal is to control things. You can have OCD and still be chaotic, if your goal is to bring people freedom/anarchy.
    I'm working for the Empire. But don't worry… I'm not going to garrote you!

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    I like it, especially when combined with changing the good-evil axis to Altruism-Egoism or Selflessness-Selfishness.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    In 5e alignment is almost entirely pointless, which was the point, I guess.
    I take issue with this statement.

    In 5e, Alignment is the most useful and to the point of any edition's Alignment to date. Which was the point.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Independence vs Responsibility / Community
    Change / Creativity vs Tradition
    Free Thinking vs Logic
    Freedom vs Fairness
    Some of those are false dichotomies.

    For example: Freedom vs. Fairness? There is no freedom without fairness. An unfair system is rigged to reduce someone's freedom.

    Free Thinking vs. Logic? We owe all advances in math and a lot of physics to people who excel in both creativity and logic, at the same time, and who don't see any conflict between the two. The opposite of logic is fallacy -- and a fallacy is not a value system, it's just an idiot-ball.

    I guess you were going for some sort of IQ / EQ dichotomy, but again there are plenty of people who excel in both, and sadly even more adept at neither.


    It's like a comparison between Int vs. Wis -- they're separate things, different from each other, but they're not opposites.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    I take issue with this statement.

    In 5e, Alignment is the most useful and to the point of any edition's Alignment to date. Which was the point.
    At this point, my only rejoinder is that I take issue with YOUR MOTHER!

    Or if your mother is sadly passed away, I apologize, and say instead that I take issue with YOUR FACE!
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Some of those are false dichotomies.
    Apparently I needed to reiterate my comment about reading the full descriptions of the Ideals in the PHB. Or include them myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    At this point, my only rejoinder is that I take issue with YOUR MOTHER!
    Oh lord if we bring your mom jokes to this board it's all over for me.

    I Snrrrk'd. ;)
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-12-07 at 05:05 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Oh lord if we bring your mom jokes to this board it's all over for me.

    I Snrrrk'd. ;)
    Then I CLAIM THE VICTORY!
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    I say throw alignments out the window and play people.

    Pick a positive trait about your character and a negative trait about your character.

    RP them, and maybe even earn inspiration based on sticking with it in the face of issues.

    Ex. My rogue might have the positive objective or “Protective” and a negative one of “Untrusting”
    So if we were in a situation where someone down an alley was getting mugged I would use my “Protective” aspect to go intervene and possible get us into things. However, if we were getting advice from an old wizard on how to handle a situation the DM could offer a point of inspiration if I used my untrusting adjective and did not trust the guy and thought he was lying.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    The real test of lawfulness is how you behave regarding the laws and conventions of society. In campaigns where there is more than one society, you can be lawful within one and chaotic within another. I might behave lawfully within my dwarf society but as for paying human taxes, forget it.

    To me that has not much to do with Logic and Passion. I think the person's relationship with actual laws for the ordering of their own home society is always a good place to start a character concept, and alignment is still helpful for this reason.
    Last edited by Longman; 2017-12-07 at 05:44 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    After many alignment discussions I have started to feel that Lawful vs Chaos doesn't work.

    Intentionally being Chaotic is inherently a broken concept, that is extremely difficult to perform. Which is why we often end up with Chaotic Stupid characters.

    A Chaotic person can sometimes be perceived as someone who intentionally goes against the Law.
    or Someone who lives on whims. Neither of which are very practical.

    I came across Passion vs Logic the other day, and saw it as a better way to describe people.

    A Passionate person can have any ideals, but they do so with following their gut. They do what they feel is right, what needs to be done. They follow their heart on matters.
    While a Logical person attempts to calculate the situation in order to achieve their goals.

    I'm not a great 'topic creator' to fully explain the idea.

    However, what are your thoughts on using Passion vs Logic instead of Lawful vs Chaotic
    Mmmm... I think a person can be utterly chaotic without being passionate. Just think of somebody who is a lazy ass, and keeps their house a mess, dirt and full of trash, and can't even keep a job because they can't be bothered to arrive on time or do their work... They are chaotic, even if they lack all passion...

    I see chaos more like 1.-A lack of discipline and unwillingness to follow rules and 2.-A somehow self-centered mindset: Nobody can tell them what to do, and even if they are acting selflessly, they have to do things their way and refuse to accept that somebody else can know better or is entitled to give them instruction...

    Passion plays a part in that it is the thing that can make a chaotic person follow somebody else, obey them or follow their guidelines, and can make them focus on a task or mission. That's how I see classical CG elves: Their rulers are like rockstars, highly charismatic people with a devoted fanbase that would do anything for them... think of Galadriel, Yolande or Amlaruil Moonflower... that are the kind of people who can become rulers among elves.

    Similarly, elves who undergo a mission do it because they are passionate about it.

    But you can be chaotic without being passionate... you just won't do much, because, why bother putting the effort...?

    EDIT: Anyways, I think the concepts of D&D's Law and Chaos aren't very realistic... think of a person with a very bad OCD... that person can be a mess, have little control over themselves, no discipline, unwillingness to follow other people's directions... and at the same time be utterly terrified of disorder, and have a crippingly strong need to have everything in place, strictly follow a carefully set schedule when doing anything... even if they would very much prefer to NOT do that...

    Law and Chaos, like say Dexterity or Charisma, mix and combine together concepts that aren't equal into a single thing...
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2017-12-07 at 05:57 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    I've always seen lawful as following a code of some sort. Whether that code be to follow the law of the land, or to kill everyone when you destroy a village so as not to leave orphans.

    Chaotic I see as acting on instinct and impulse. You see what you want to achieve, so you go and get it, regardless of the route there or the wider scope of your immediate actions.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    I find looking at the PHB Ideals associated with the PHB backgrounds helps give insight to what the developers were thinking,
    .
    @Tanarii is right, look to the Ideals in the PHB (and the Inspiration rules in the DMG) for how to use "Alignment" in 5e D&D



    That out of the way, let me bloviate!

    Logic vs. Passion?

    As if!

    Okay, in the novel Three Hearts and Three Lions by Poul Anderson,

    which was published before and inspired Moorcock's "Law vs. Chaos" conflict, it was only sometimes "Law", and usually it was indeed "Order" vs. "Chaos", and Anderson expressly conflated Holger's struggle against Morgan le Fay and the "Host of Faerie" with the battle against the Nazis in our world.

    To go back to the other D&D I've played, originally there were three classes; "Cleric", "Fighting-Men", and "Magic-User" (as in "wake up the user, it's time to cast the daily spell"). Clerics didn't have any spells at first level, but they could "turn" some undead (a bit like a 5e Paladin really).
    The Paladin class was introduced in La Chanson de Roland the 1975 "Greyhawk" supplement (which also introduced Thieves hmm... what a coincidence funny that). From "Greyhawk":
    Charisma scores of 17 or greater by fighters indicate the possibility of paladin status IF THEY ARE LAWFUL from the commencement of play for the character. If such fighters elect to they can become paladins, always doing lawful deeds, for any chaotic act will immediately revoke the status of paladin, and it can never be regained. The paladin has a number of very powerful aids in his continual seeking for good......".
    (Ok this is the fun part the special powers which include......PSYCH! Back to the restrictions)
    "Paladins will never be allowed to possess more than four magically items, excluding the armor, shield and up to four weapons they normally use. They will give away all treasure that they win, save that which is neccesary to maintain themselves, their men and a modest castle. Gifts must be to the poor or to charitable or religious institutions , i.e.not tho some other character played in the game. A paladin's stronghold cannot be above 200,000 gold pieces in total cost, and no more than 200 men can be retained to guard it. Paladins normally prefer to dwell with lawful princess of patriarchs, but circumstances may prevent this. They will associate only with lawful characters"
    Huh? What's lawful? What's chaotic? What's associate? And what is this charitable? I don't believe PC's know this word.
    Well...helpfully there are some clues:
    " Chaotic Alignment by a player generally betokens chaotic action on the player's part without any rule to stress this aspect, i.e. a chaotic player is usually more prone to stab even his lawless buddy in the back for some desired gain. However, chaos is just that - chaotic. Evil monsters are as likely to turn on their supposed confederate in order to have all the loot as they are to attack a lawful party in the first place".
    OK Paladins are "continual seeking for good", "All thieves are either neutral or chaotic - although lawful characters may hire them on a one-time basis for missions which are basically lawful" "Patriarchs" (high level Clerics) "stance" is "Law", and "Evil High Priests" "stance" is "Chaos". So we can infer that Law = Good, and Chaos = Evil in early D&D, which fits how the terms were used in novels Gygax cited as "inspiration", first in Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions", and than later in Moorcock's "Stormbringer" (though Moorcock eventually in his novels show that too much "Law" is anti-human as well, which is probably why Gygax added the separate Good-Evil axis so you could have "Lawful Evil" and "Chaotic Good" alignmemts later).

    Dave Arneson wrote that he added "alignment" to the game he made up because of one PC backstabbing another

    "We began without the multitude of character classes and three alignments that exists today. I felt that as a team working towards common goals there would be it was all pretty straight forward. Wrong!

    "Give me my sword back!" "Nah your old character is dead, it's mine now!"

    Well I couldn't really make him give it to the new character. But then came the treasure question. The Thieves question. Finally there were the two new guys. One decided that there was no reason to share the goodies. Since there was no one else around and a +3 for rear attacks . . .. well . . Of course everyone actually KNEW what had happened, especially the target.

    After a great deal of discussion . . . yes let us call it "discussion" the culprit promised to make amends. He, and his associate did. The next time the orcs attacked the two opened the door and let the Orcs in. They shared the loot and fled North to the lands of the EGG OF COOT. (Sigh)

    We now had alignment. Spells to detect alignment, and rules forbidding actions not allowed by ones alignment. Actually not as much fun as not knowing. Chuck and John had a great time being the 'official' evil players.
    They would draw up adventures to trap the others (under my supervision) and otherwise make trouble"


    Before D&D, Gygax & Perren had Law vs. Chaos in the Fantasy appendix to the Chainmail wargame:



    And here's in 1974's Gygax & Arneson's Dungeons & Dragons: Book1, Men & Magic



    (Orcs can be Neutral as well as Chaos, as can Elves, Dwarves/Gnomes as well as Law, and Men may be any)

    And "Law, Chaos, and Neutrality also have common languages spoken by each respectively. One can attempt to communicate through the common tongue, language particular to a creature class, or one of the divisional languages (law, etc.). While not understanding the language, creatures who speak a divisionsl tongue will recognize a hostile one and attack."

    Easy "detect alignment"!

    Arneson and Gygax got Law vs. Chaos from stories by Poul Anderson and Michael Moorcock
    Now in the 1961 novel (based on a '53 short story) Three Hearts and Three Lions, we have this:

    "....Holger got the idea that a perpetual struggle went on between primeval forces of Law and Chaos. No, not forces exactly. Modes of existence? A terrestrial reflection of the spiritual conflict between heaven and hell? In any case, humans were the chief agents on earth of Law, though most of them were so only unconsciously and some, witches and warlocks and evildoers, had sold out to Chaos. A few nonhuman beings also stood for Law. Ranged against them were almost the whole Middle World, which seemed to include realms like Faerie, Trollheim, and the Giants--an actual creation of Chaos. Wars among men, such as the long-drawn struggle between the Saracens and the Holy Empire, aided Chaos; under Law all men would live in peace and order and that liberty which only Law could give meaning. But this was so alien to the Middle Worlders that they were forever working to prevent it and extend their own shadowy dominion....."

    .which suggests that Law vs. Chaos is about "teams" in a cosmic struggle rather than personal ethics/morality, which is how the terms are used in the old Stormbringer RPG, and would be my preference.

    In 1976's
    THE MEANING OF LAW AND CHAOS IN DUNGEONS & DRAGONS
    AND THEIR RELATIONSHIPS TO GOOD AND EVIL
    by Gary Gygax in The Strategic Review: February 1976 article added the "good and evil axis", but he made clear in this graph:


    ..that creatures don't just exist on one of nine points of ethics/morality, there's a range:

    Also in the article Gygax states:

    "Placement of characters upon a graph similar to that in Illustration I is necessary if the dungeonmaster is to maintain a record of player-character alignment. Initially, each character should be placed squarely on the center point of his alignment, i.e., lawful/good, lawful/evil, etc. The actions of each game week will then be taken into account when determining the current position of each character. Adjustment is perforce often subjective, but as a guide the referee can consider the actions of a given player in light of those characteristics which typify his alignment, and opposed actions can further be weighed with regard to intensity....

    ....Alignment does not preclude actions which typify a different alignment, but such actions will necessarily affect the position of the character performing them, and the class or the alignment of the character in question can change due to such actions, unless counter-deeds are performed to balance things.
    "


    So in general "Law" is the side of humanity, and "Chaos" is on the side of the supernatural in Anderson and early Moorcock, and very early D&D

    Per Gygax, I infer from that "Alignment" doesn't control the PC's actions, PC actions are a guide to what "Alignment" the DM rules a character is for game effects.

    So leave the entry blank, and let the DM deal with the alignment claptrap (frankly as a player I'd rather keep a character possessions inventory sheet and foist the "stats" on the DM anyway)!

    1976's Eldrich Wizardry supplement added the Mind Flayers which were the first monters that were explicitly both "lawful" and "evil", and it could be a coincidence but Michael Moorcock in A Quest for Tanelorn wrote:

    "Chaos is not wholly evil, surely?" said the child. "And neither is Law wholly good. They are primitive divisions, at best-- they represent only temperamental differences in individual men and women. There are other elements..."
    "

    ..which was published in 1975 in the UK, and 1976 in the USA, and '76 was when Gygax added "good" and "evil" to D&D Alignment



    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    Then I CLAIM THE VICTORY!
    That made me laugh.

    Grim specter of noogie hangs like shroud over us all


    Extended Sig
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    Does the game you play feature a Dragon sitting on a pile of treasure, in a Dungeon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    You're an NPC stat block."I remember when your race was your class you damned whippersnappers"
    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    ...2d8HPos: the whole world is my lawn and I set it on fire!

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    This isn’t a perfect model, but I usually use defining statements like...

    I work <by myself/with others> for the benefit of <myself/everyone>

    So... ‘Chaotic Good’ is “I work by myself for the benefit of everyone”; whereas ‘Lawful Evil’ is “I work with others for the benefit of myself”

    It loses a lot of intricacy of alignment, but is a good starting point for new players unfamiliar with the concept

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    .
    @Tanarii is right, look to the Ideals in the PHB (and the Inspiration rules in the DMG) for how to use "Alignment" in 5e D&D



    That out of the way, let me bloviate!

    /snip


    I now dub thee DnD Lawnchair Professor.

    Pretty interesting to see how all this evolved. There must be some graphic or timeline that shows the classes as DnD "matured". I always thought that thief was one of the original archetypes, but I can see why it wasn't included.
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    I can see Passionate = Chaos. Some people's lives are ruled by their passions, their gut, and what they feel is right and wrong (good/evil). This can appear completely chaotic when those passions conflict with one another and a character is making decisions that cannot be justified logically. A logical person trying to argue with one of these Chaos people is going to get nowhere fast. The Chaos person just "knows" what is right.

    Whereas the Logical = Lawful, player needs to reevaluate what he believes when his beliefs conflict with one another. However, this is guided by the individual's sense of right and wrong and not by man-made laws or even laws from the word of the Gods. In fact, it is often man-made laws and God-made laws that conflict. The Chaos individual goes with what he feels is right for the situation, while the Logical individual needs to determine which of his conflicting laws/beliefs is right and why.

    The problem for D&D is how would you apply this? For example, When would a Chaos/Lawful or Passionate/Logical person show a thief compassion? The answer for the Lawful character might be Never. The law is the law. The Logical, Passionate, and Chaos characters would probably show mercy if the thief was stealing medicine for her sick child, but they show mercy for different reasons. The Chaos person does so because they embrace chaos and not the law. The Passionate person does so because it's just the right thing to do. The Logical person does so because the need to care for a sick child out weighs the need to not take something you don't own. So, I don't see this as a system that will make playing D&D with law/chaos/good/evil or passion/chaos/right/wrong any easier, but I can see it as a useful guideline on roughly explaining where people fall in the general spectrum.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Daithi View Post
    I can see Passionate = Chaos. Some people's lives are ruled by their passions, their gut, and what they feel is right and wrong (good/evil). This can appear completely chaotic when those passions conflict with one another and a character is making decisions that cannot be justified logically. A logical person trying to argue with one of these Chaos people is going to get nowhere fast. The Chaos person just "knows" what is right.

    Whereas the Logical = Lawful, player needs to reevaluate what he believes when his beliefs conflict with one another. However, this is guided by the individual's sense of right and wrong and not by man-made laws or even laws from the word of the Gods. In fact, it is often man-made laws and God-made laws that conflict. The Chaos individual goes with what he feels is right for the situation, while the Logical individual needs to determine which of his conflicting laws/beliefs is right and why.

    The problem for D&D is how would you apply this? For example, When would a Chaos/Lawful or Passionate/Logical person show a thief compassion? The answer for the Lawful character might be Never. The law is the law. The Logical, Passionate, and Chaos characters would probably show mercy if the thief was stealing medicine for her sick child, but they show mercy for different reasons. The Chaos person does so because they embrace chaos and not the law. The Passionate person does so because it's just the right thing to do. The Logical person does so because the need to care for a sick child out weighs the need to not take something you don't own. So, I don't see this as a system that will make playing D&D with law/chaos/good/evil or passion/chaos/right/wrong any easier, but I can see it as a useful guideline on roughly explaining where people fall in the general spectrum.
    I cried a little as I read this, because it said so much of what I was trying to convey!
    Would you be bothered if I quoted this onto the opening post?

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    This is a terrible idea. Everyone (at least in the western cultural sphere) believes that their positions and beliefs are logical, because as a society we place "logical" behavior on a high pedestal and look down on openly emotion driven behavior. You're basically taking the Law-Chaos axis and giving it the same baggage as Good-Evil.
    Last edited by War_lord; 2017-12-08 at 08:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Yeah, I think the only way it makes sense is if you picture Yeenoghu spreading his taint over every gnoll.

    Go ahead and imagine that.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by War_lord View Post
    This is a terrible idea. Everyone (at least in the western cultural sphere) believes that their positions and beliefs are logical, because as a society we place "logical" behavior on a high pedestal and look down on openly emotion driven behavior. You're basically taking the Law-Chaos axis and giving it the same baggage as Good-Evil.
    Are you speaking of Europe or America?

    Because America is a Passion driven Society

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by War_lord View Post
    Everyone (at least in the western cultural sphere) believes that their positions and beliefs are logical, because as a society we place "logical" behavior on a high pedestal and look down on openly emotion driven behavior.
    As I like to say, "logical" nowadays just means "this thing I personally believe to be correct".

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    Are you speaking of Europe or America?

    Because America is a Passion driven Society
    Wew, that's a lot to unpack. First off, "Europe" covers a lot of ground. The cultural mores of Italy aren't that of Finland for example. Second, Europeans are not anymore "logical" then Americans. Humans are emotional creatures, that's universal. Depicting "Europe" as an ultra enlightened intellectual paradise is just as inaccurate as depicting it as a lawless wasteland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    As I like to say, "logical" nowadays just means "this thing I personally believe to be correct".
    "Logical" has always meant "this thing I personally believe to be correct". Actually being logical is a skill that requires a lot of constant critical self-evaluation. Human nature isn't built for that, and the education diet of unquestionable facts most people are bombarded with in their teens does the rest. Telling students to take a rational approach to evaluating information they're given doesn't pass exams.
    Last edited by War_lord; 2017-12-08 at 11:31 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Yeah, I think the only way it makes sense is if you picture Yeenoghu spreading his taint over every gnoll.

    Go ahead and imagine that.

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by War_lord View Post
    Wew, that's a lot to unpack. First off, "Europe" covers a lot of ground. The cultural mores of Italy aren't that of Finland for example. Second, Europeans are not anymore "logical" then Americans. Humans are emotional creatures, that's universal. Depicting "Europe" as an ultra enlightened intellectual paradise is just as inaccurate as depicting it as a lawless wasteland.
    Fair, but are you arguing your own point?

    Quote Originally Posted by War_lord View Post
    This is a terrible idea. Everyone (at least in the western cultural sphere) believes that their positions and beliefs are logical, because as a society we place "logical" behavior on a high pedestal and look down on openly emotion driven behavior. You're basically taking the Law-Chaos axis and giving it the same baggage as Good-Evil.
    In America the general population looks down on logical based behavior and rally behind passionate based behavior

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    In America the general population looks down on logical based behavior and rally behind passionate based behavior
    How much time have you spent in European countries?
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Yeah, I think the only way it makes sense is if you picture Yeenoghu spreading his taint over every gnoll.

    Go ahead and imagine that.

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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    In America the general population looks down on logical based behavior and rally behind passionate based behavior
    Nope. As really bad generalizations go, this takes the cake.
    Where do you live?
    What profession are you in?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) or so I am told ... by 2D8HP

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    ...the general population looks down on logical based behavior and rally behind passionate based behavior
    .
    I passionately disagree with such illogic!

    If you were Canadian you would have apologized already!

    *looks around for torch and pitchfork*

    I just love "alignment" threads!

    Grim specter of noogie hangs like shroud over us all


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    Does the game you play feature a Dragon sitting on a pile of treasure, in a Dungeon?
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    You're an NPC stat block."I remember when your race was your class you damned whippersnappers"
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    ...2d8HPos: the whole world is my lawn and I set it on fire!

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Troll in the Playground
     
    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Anti-intellectualism is a part of American culture, but that doesn’t always necessarily translate to rejecting logic-based arguments in favor of passion-centered ones

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    America is divided more now than any time since the 1960's.

    Lets quietly drop the politics and leave it out of this forum, eh?

    Cause that's where it's headed right now.
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    I disagree. My read on it is:

    Lawful means you endeavor to live by the recognized rules of a society or organization believing that clear rules people follow means everyone knows what is expected of them and what can be expected of others. This is better for everyone.

    Chaotic means you believe you cannot delegate responsibility for the your actions and their consequences to another, tradition or law. You are solely responsible for what you do, with full accountability.

    Neutral means you see the value in conventions, traditions, expectations and laws but believe each person is responsible for their own actions. So generally you should follow expectations but that's not an excuse for a poor or wrong decision. The classic "If everyone jumped off a cliff" Scenario.

    None of these are inherently based on logic or passion. Logic or emotion can be used as the foundation for any of the three.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    America is divided more now than any time since the 1960's.

    Lets quietly drop the politics and leave it out of this forum, eh?

    Cause that's where it's headed right now.
    No one has brought up politics except you.

    "Humans tend to be more swayed by emotional arguments then purely logic based ones" is not a political statement. "Human tend to justify their own views as purely logical, even when those views obviously have a huge emotional element" is not a political statement.

    Those observations come into play any time there's a disagreement between two people, even in the context of arguing in D&D.
    Last edited by War_lord; 2017-12-08 at 01:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Yeah, I think the only way it makes sense is if you picture Yeenoghu spreading his taint over every gnoll.

    Go ahead and imagine that.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by War_lord View Post
    No one has brought up politics except you.

    "Humans tend to be more swayed by emotional arguments then purely logic based ones" is not a political statement. "Human tend to justify their own views as logical, even when those views obviously have a huge emotional element" is not a political statement.

    Those observations come into play any time there's a disagreement between two people, even in the context of arguing in D&D.
    There were several posts that could be considered attacks on America and Americans that lead to that post.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Lawful vs Chaos OR Passion vs Logic

    Attack seems a bit strong. I feel a certain user was being a bit ivory tower and perhaps naive. But I don't think they were attacking anyone. More a case of the grass being greener on the other side (Of the Atlantic Ocean)

    As an Irishman I can confirm Europe is not some strange academic utopia where all disagreements are handled via University debate club rules.
    Last edited by War_lord; 2017-12-08 at 01:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Yeah, I think the only way it makes sense is if you picture Yeenoghu spreading his taint over every gnoll.

    Go ahead and imagine that.

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