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    LeonBH's Avatar

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    Default Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    The CoffeeLock buzz has passed, and here it is, returning. Returning, but nerfed.

    According to Jeremy Crawford, Aspect of the Moon does not remove the need for long rests.

    This means that the CoffeeLock with Aspect of the Moon will still be rolling a Con save of increasing difficulty every 24 hours as long as they do not take a long rest. It seems they just don't sleep and that's it.

    The relevant optional rule (XgtE 78): "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion."
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2017-12-07 at 08:52 AM.

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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Which is unfortunate really... outside of the coffeelock (which can still be done, but only at much higher level now); Aspect of the Moon is a mostly fluff ability anyways. The ability to do ‘light activity’ instead of useful things 6 hours a night just isn’t worth an invocation slot (to me)

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Which is unfortunate really... outside of the coffeelock (which can still be done, but only at much higher level now); Aspect of the Moon is a mostly fluff ability anyways. The ability to do ‘light activity’ instead of useful things 6 hours a night just isn’t worth an invocation slot (to me)
    While I agree to an extent, it does allow the Warlock to always be the one on watch. And that means that the Warlock can get up to all sorts of shenanigans while the other players sleep. Tie their shoelaces together, stick their hands in warm water, barter their souls on their behalf for even more power, swap all of their stuff around. You know, typical hijinks.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Which is unfortunate really... outside of the coffeelock (which can still be done, but only at much higher level now); Aspect of the Moon is a mostly fluff ability anyways. The ability to do ‘light activity’ instead of useful things 6 hours a night just isn’t worth an invocation slot (to me)
    Yeah, but there are quite a few invocations that facilitate a concept but are of questionable practical value.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    Yeah, but there are quite a few invocations that facilitate a concept but are of questionable practical value.
    While several are marginal utility at best, I can’t think of another besides Aspect of the Moon that you are only paying for flavor essentially (I guess unless sleep-inducing magic is a big problem in the campaign).

    Eyes of the Runekeeper, Gaze of Two Minds, and Voice of the Chain Master lack combat uses but all have niches in exploration/social stuff. Some of the spells you can get are pretty weak, but not weaker than ‘change the fluff on your mandatory rests’

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    While several are marginal utility at best, I can’t think of another besides Aspect of the Moon that you are only paying for flavor essentially (I guess unless sleep-inducing magic is a big problem in the campaign).

    Eyes of the Runekeeper, Gaze of Two Minds, and Voice of the Chain Master lack combat uses but all have niches in exploration/social stuff. Some of the spells you can get are pretty weak, but not weaker than ‘change the fluff on your mandatory rests’
    I was thinking more of the ones where you spend an invocation to buy one casting of a spell that is really a special use case.
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    I was thinking more of the ones where you spend an invocation to buy one casting of a spell that is really a special use case.
    Which spell were you thinking of? I mean... Compulsion and Bane are nothing to write home about (compared to alternatives); but they are not ‘fluff only’ spells (and... what concept do they fit anyways?)

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Which spell were you thinking of? I mean... Compulsion and Bane are nothing to write home about (compared to alternatives); but they are not ‘fluff only’ spells (and... what concept do they fit anyways?)
    Not got the book in front of me but if I recall you can give up one of your at will magic picks for a daily casting of banish or something like that. I think it's a bad trade.
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    Not got the book in front of me but if I recall you can give up one of your at will magic picks for a daily casting of banish or something like that. I think it's a bad trade.
    Banish is a great spell, but already in the warlock spell list.

    Compulsion, Confusion, Hold Monster, Conjure Elemental, Slow, Polymorph, Bane... Freedom of Movement...

    And those are weak enough that very few people take them already, so making things with even less mechanical effect in the name of flavor isn’t doing it for me. Which is a shame, things like ‘never sleeping’ are often the kind of things I waste character options on a lot of the time in various games

    Kind of makes Warforged a bit weird too... unrelenting magic soldiers? Nope, need that nightly ‘power save mode’

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    I mean I was never going to play a Coffeelock anyway, or even facilitate one in a game I ran, but it's still one more thing that is now just straight-up useless fluff.

    Could they not have just put a note that says, "This does not eliminate your need to take long rests." with the invocation itself? How hard would that have been? Because the way its written in the book it really reads like there should be some benefit to it.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2017-12-07 at 09:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Would some half-ground like ‘you don’t need to sleep, and you can take a long rest in the time of a short rest, use this ability once only 24 hours’ break anything?

    And in any case coffeelock lives as soon as you can cast Greater Restoration, albeit at 100g every few days

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Well that's stupid. Oh well, at least he answered it. Guess infinite coffeelocks will need to be Divine Souls for Greater Restoration then!
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-12-07 at 09:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Would some half-ground like ‘you don’t need to sleep, and you can take a long rest in the time of a short rest, use this ability once only 24 hours’ break anything?

    And in any case coffeelock lives as soon as you can cast Greater Restoration, albeit at 100g every few days
    If I were going to change it I would probably say you don't need sleep, food or water. You gain exhaustion for forgoing long rests at half the normal rate.
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Would some half-ground like ‘you don’t need to sleep, and you can take a long rest in the time of a short rest, use this ability once only 24 hours’ break anything?

    And in any case coffeelock lives as soon as you can cast Greater Restoration, albeit at 100g every few days
    Really, the CoffeeLock can live earlier by risking one DC 10 Con save. It's disadvantage to ability checks, but they are proficient in the save, and depending on their subclass, it's actually not that big a risk. But they won't have infinitely many spell slots. They would just be a stronger Sorlock.

    And yes, that half ground will allow a full spellcaster to regain their highest level spells in 1 hour. CoffeeLocks won't use it, but everyone else will like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Well that's stupid. Oh well, at least he answered it.
    The RAW is the RAW. The RAI is the RAI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    If I were going to change it I would probably say you don't need sleep, food or water. You gain exhaustion for forgoing long rests at half the normal rate.
    Seems to still disable CoffeeLocks though.
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2017-12-07 at 09:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    I'm glad he engages with people, and I recognize that he's one of the lead designers, but Twitter is the least authoritative source I can possibly imagine.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    I'm glad he engages with people, and I recognize that he's one of the lead designers, but Twitter is the least authoritative source I can possibly imagine.
    Twitter isn't the source, Crawford is the source. Twitter is just the medium. While not "official" official, it does show the intent of the rules together (until and unless he or the staff change their minds).

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    I'm glad he engages with people, and I recognize that he's one of the lead designers, but Twitter is the least authoritative source I can possibly imagine.
    It's officially backed up though, his tweets are authoritative, at least for learning the RAI.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Sigh. So much for that invocation. Now it's gone from "niche" to "basically useless." In fact, nearly totally useless, because you could already long rest without sleeping.
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB
    A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
    Emphasis mine.

    Not to mention that the Xanathar's rule becomes totally incompatible with the gritty rests variant, since that only lets you long rest once/week.
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Really, the CoffeeLock can live earlier by risking one DC 10 Con save. It's disadvantage to ability checks, but they are proficient in the save, and depending on their subclass, it's actually not that big a risk. But they won't have infinitely many spell slots. They would just be a stronger Sorlock.

    And yes, that half ground will allow a full spellcaster to regain their highest level spells in 1 hour. CoffeeLocks won't use it, but everyone else will like it.



    The RAW is the RAW. The RAI is the RAI.



    Seems to still disable CoffeeLocks though.
    I'm neutral on coffeelocks. I was considering the value of the feat overall and not whether it would specifically facilitate a particular build. I wouldn't bother to coffee lock, but I don't mind if others di.
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Sigh. So much for that invocation. Now it's gone from "niche" to "basically useless." In fact, nearly totally useless, because you could already long rest without sleeping.

    Emphasis mine.

    Not to mention that the Xanathar's rule becomes totally incompatible with the gritty rests variant, since that only lets you long rest once/week.
    Well they're both variant/optional rules, so that isn't a big deal. You use one or the other, or modify either/or.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    This kind of ruling is bad for the game, but not because of the coffeelock. Individual DMs already maintain balance at their own tables. Rather, it's a non-intuitive and restricting ruling.

    If you don't need to sleep, you shouldn't need to take eight hours of rest every day. That's the way I read it and, I suspect, that's the way almost everyone read it.

    Further, not needing to take long rests opens up all sorts of possibilities, most of which have nothing to do with the coffeelock. Depending on the character and campaign, there's a lot of untapped potential there.

    Luckily, Crawford's RAI has next to no impact on how the game is actually played, in my experience.
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Sigh. So much for that invocation. Now it's gone from "niche" to "basically useless." In fact, nearly totally useless, because you could already long rest without sleeping.

    Emphasis mine.

    Not to mention that the Xanathar's rule becomes totally incompatible with the gritty rests variant, since that only lets you long rest once/week.
    Well, I think that the quote you provide means that you need to sleep for at least 6 of the hours. Basically, you can sleep for eight hours, or you can do sleep for six and do light activity for two.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Sigh. So much for that invocation. Now it's gone from "niche" to "basically useless." In fact, nearly totally useless, because you could already long rest without sleeping.

    Emphasis mine.

    Not to mention that the Xanathar's rule becomes totally incompatible with the gritty rests variant, since that only lets you long rest once/week.
    No, you need 6 hours of sleep at a minimum. Check the 2nd page of the PHB Errata.

    The long rest rule was supposed to say, you need 8 hours of downtime of which you need to either sleep or do light activity, but the light activity can only be 2 hours at most. The implication was you needed to sleep for 6 hours. I believe they clarified this by explicitly saying you need 6 hours of sleep as part of a long rest now.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    The CoffeeLock buzz has passed, and here it is, returning. Returning, but nerfed.

    According to Jeremy Crawford, Aspect of the Moon does not remove the need for long rests"
    Vindication!

    This aligns with my original reading of the Aspect of the Moon text. (I was basically shouted down in the first xge coffeelock thread for suggesting it)

    Thank you for sharing. So glad JC cleared this up, though to be honest I was hoping he’d come down the other way on it.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    Vindication!

    This aligns with my original reading of the Aspect of the Moon text. (I was basically shouted down in the first xge coffeelock thread for suggesting it)

    Thank you for sharing. So glad JC cleared this up, though to be honest I was hoping he’d come down the other way on it.
    Eh. The evidence seemed strong the other way, RAW. *shrug* It happens.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Eh. The evidence seemed strong the other way, RAW. *shrug* It happens.
    TBH, the evidence was strongly pointing to the need for a Con save every 24 hours without a long rest, regardless of AotM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Further, not needing to take long rests opens up all sorts of possibilities, most of which have nothing to do with the coffeelock. Depending on the character and campaign, there's a lot of untapped potential there.
    Out of curiosity, what non-CoffeeLock possibilities had you come up with?
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2017-12-07 at 10:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    TBH, the evidence was strongly pointing to the need for a Con save every 24 hours without a long rest, regardless of AotM.
    That's why there were so many threads with people arguing about it then, because the evidence was so conclusive that we had hundreds of posts going back and forth between various parties about it.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    That's why there were so many threads with people arguing about it then, because the evidence was so conclusive that we had hundreds of posts going back and forth between various parties about it.
    You literally just said the evidence seemed to point strongly to the other side. I repeated your words to you. Then let me repeat them back to you again, now.

    If the evidence was strong for the other side, why were there so many threads with people arguing about it then?

    But whatever. AotM does not obsolete long rests, and the world makes sense again.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    You literally just said the evidence seemed to point strongly to the other side. I repeated your words to you. Then let me repeat them back to you again, now.

    If the evidence was strong for the other side, why were there so many threads with people arguing about it then?

    But whatever. AotM does not obsolete long rests, and the world makes sense again.
    I was trying to agree with you, in that the evidence pointed in either direction, depending on how you looked at it. I disagreed with how you looked at it, but at least until they change their mind, the way you were looking at it was the valid one.

    As for the world making sense... when has it ever done that?
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-12-07 at 10:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    As for the world making sense... when has it ever done that?
    Fair point.

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