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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Frankly, this is one of the invocations I would love to have. Work, socialize, and still have 8 hours for Netflix.

    Having The Dancing Goat as your Patron aside, There are a few side benefits, but it depends greatly on your particular mode of play, and your DM.

    Seems straightforward:
    Immune to Sleep Magics, Sleep Poisons (Drow or otherwise), any Suggestion or Geas that includes a sleep command, and the Slumber version of Imprisonment. - All in all niche, but being able to blow off a 9th level spell with a 3rd level feature is kind of cool (if unlikely).

    You never have to take off your armor. If you don't sleep, you don't have penalties for sleeping in armor. Might want to invest in Prestidigitation, Ser Crotchfunk.

    Keeping watch all night.

    Maintain concentration on a late-day Hex.

    Attune three magic items. Add EK, and swap out your bonded weapons as well.

    Identify magic items by fiddling with them for an hour

    If you get a lot of overnight encounters, this guy is the lynchpin: Always ready for a fight.


    Up for interpretation:
    What constitutes "light activity" as part of a long rest.

    Is reading light? What about writing? What about copying rituals into your Book of Ancient Secrets? Spell scrolls?

    Crafting? Workdays assumed a standard 8 hour work day. Can you craft through your long rest? Make a bunch of arrows? make a potion of healing?

    Cook a meal? Cook a large meal for a feast? Direct the kitchen staff to cook a meal?

    Eating and talking? Feasting? Carousing? Can you get blackout drunk? What about something less chemically active, like gambling?

    Doing research? Interrogating prisoners?

    How much walking is allowed during a long rest, normally? Could you stroll about leisurely for 8 hours? Drive a wagon? Steer a boat?
    Why yes, Warlock is my solution for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    Active Abilities are great because you - the player - are demonstrating your Dwarvenness or Elfishness. You're not passively a dwarf, you're actively dwarfing your way through obstacles.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    I don't care about whether CoffeLock (or any particular build, really) gets broken; I do think it's asinine to issue any sort of rules statement through Twitter. RAI guidance I can just about accept.
    Well I think that's how people treat the twitter posts. It's not RAW, but RAI, and since that's the only insight we have since errata is rare, that's what most base their own rulings on. It's not official by any means, but it's what the crux of the argument is over. Was it intended for X or intended for Y.

    So right now it's X. Until they change their minds again.
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-12-07 at 02:35 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganymede View Post
    People are really going down swinging on this issue.
    I don't care about the coffeelock, I just think the ruling is stupid because it renders the invocation useless.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2017-12-07 at 02:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Major Works

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    I don't care about the coffeelock, I just think the ruling is stupid because it renders the invocation useless.
    I think JoeTheRat just eloquently demonstrated that the invocation is not useless.
    Where do you fit in? (link fixed)

    RedMage Prestige Class!

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night. SET a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

    Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
    "Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."

    Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Level 10 Undying Patron Warlocks also don’t need sleep, “although you still require rest to reduce exhaustion and still benefit from finishing short and long rests.“
    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    I think JoeTheRat just eloquently demonstrated that the invocation is not useless.
    yes if your GM decides you can do things, you can do them... with no guidelines as to what constitutes light activity this is still potentially useless
    Last edited by Naanomi; 2017-12-07 at 02:42 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Level 10 Undying Patron Warlocks also don’t need sleep, “although you still require rest to reduce exhaustion and still benefit from finishing short and long rests.“

    yes if your GM decides you can do things, you can do them... with no guidelines as to what constitutes light activity this is still potentially useless
    Plus, even if you can do all those... does that still make the invocation as useful as well, nearly any other invocation?

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Level 10 Undying Patron Warlocks also don’t need sleep, “although you still require rest to reduce exhaustion and still benefit from finishing short and long rests.“

    yes if your GM decides you can do things, you can do them... with no guidelines as to what constitutes light activity this is still potentially useless
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Plus, even if you can do all those... does that still make the invocation as useful as well, nearly any other invocation?
    To paraphrase Joe:

    You never have to take off your armor. If you don't sleep, you don't have penalties for sleeping in armor. Might want to invest in Prestidigitation, Ser Crotchfunk.

    Keeping watch all night.

    Attune three magic items. Add EK, and swap out your bonded weapons as well.

    Identify magic items by fiddling with them for an hour

    If you get a lot of overnight encounters, this guy is the lynchpin: Always ready for a fight.

    These things are undeniably, unquestionably, benefits to AotM.

    Subjective usefulness, perhaps.

    Useless? Certainly not.
    Where do you fit in? (link fixed)

    RedMage Prestige Class!

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night. SET a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

    Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
    "Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."

    Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    I think JoeTheRat just eloquently demonstrated that the invocation is not useless.
    I think JoeTheRat pointed out a couple very niche or marginal uses, and a bunch of things that are both subjective and almost certainly won't be allowed. (I can't think of any world where "carousing" counts as light activity. Even crafting seems sketchy; the intent seems to me to be "nothing that requires much in the way of mental or physical activity.")

    It's not nothing, by any means, but it's so far below what comparable Invocations offer that there's no reason you would take it.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2017-12-07 at 03:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Major Works

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Well I think that's how people treat the twitter posts. It's not RAW, but RAI, and since that's the only insight we have since errata is rare, that's what most base their own rulings on. It's not official by any means, but it's what the crux of the argument is over. Was it intended for X or intended for Y.

    So right now it's X. Until they change their minds again.
    I was surprised to learn from this thread that, according to the Sage Advice Compendium, Jeremy can issue official rulings through Twitter.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Well that's stupid. Oh well, at least he answered it. Guess infinite coffeelocks will need to be Divine Souls for Greater Restoration then!
    HAH! BOOYASHAKA!

    /dance
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    HAH! BOOYASHAKA!

    /dance
    My thought process behind my claim is still valid, and I'm holding onto that.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    I was surprised to learn from this thread that, according to the Sage Advice Compendium, Jeremy can issue official rulings through Twitter.
    .
    ..
    ...
    Welcome to the 21st century!

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    My thought process behind my claim is still valid, and I'm holding onto that.
    Man, can't you at least, like, pretend to get mad or something?

    Humph. Suck all the joy out of it, why dontcha.
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    Man, can't you at least, like, pretend to get mad or something?

    Humph. Suck all the joy out of it, why dontcha.
    Meh. I was wrong in the context of RAI. It happens. Do I agree with it? Eh, not really. Does that mean I'm right? Currently, no. Why be mad about that? I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong once someone proves it.

    It... maaaay also be fun to let the wind out of your sails too. Just a little.
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-12-07 at 03:23 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    .
    ..
    ...
    Welcome to the 21st century!

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    OrcBarbarianGirl

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    tongue Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    I'm gonna miss bold roast coffee locks.

    "You were good son, real good. Maybe even the best."

    Although, now that they're reliant on a really expensive powder, they are not 'coffee' locks anymore... Now they're Snowflame.
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    This thread, Questions that can't be answered... Answered by RAW by No brains, is Epic.
    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    That is so stupid it's hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    ...I've clearly been playing D&D for too long, because that made a demented kind of sense.

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I'm gonna miss bold roast coffee locks.

    "You were good son, real good. Maybe even the best."

    Although, now that they're reliant on a really expensive powder, they are not 'coffee' locks anymore... Now they're Snowflame.
    They've been upgraded to Venti No-Foam Latte Locks.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I'm gonna miss bold roast coffee locks.
    Lol. Bold Roast.
    Where do you fit in? (link fixed)

    RedMage Prestige Class!

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night. SET a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

    Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
    "Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."

    Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Meh. I was wrong in the context of RAI. It happens. Do I agree with it? Eh, not really. Does that mean I'm right? Currently, no. Why be mad about that? I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong once someone proves it.

    It... maaaay also be fun to let the wind out of your sails too. Just a little.
    Extra humph!
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    As someone who can only wear light armor (generally), they can sleep in their armor without penalties anyways

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Easy_Lee's Avatar

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Will say again that going against RAI doesn't make one "wrong." As I've shown elsewhere, it's impossible to perfectly follow RAI unless you not only seek out the intended ruling for every rule, but also that those rulings never change. The first constraint is infeasible; there are hundreds of rules. And both Mearls and Crawford are inconsistent about rulings, which violates the second constraint.

    There's no need to be upset by developer intent; your DM's interpretation is what matters.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    There's no need to be upset by developer intent; your DM's interpretation is what matters.
    More importantly in this case, it's "developer intent" liable to be rolled back as soon as someone points out that the long rest rule referenced is for sleep deprivation, and asks if he's saying AotM warlocks still suffer from sleep deprivation

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Will say again that going against RAI doesn't make one "wrong." As I've shown elsewhere, it's impossible to perfectly follow RAI unless you not only seek out the intended ruling for every rule, but also that those rulings never change. The first constraint is infeasible; there are hundreds of rules. And both Mearls and Crawford are inconsistent about rulings, which violates the second constraint.

    There's no need to be upset by developer intent; your DM's interpretation is what matters.
    Endorsed. I do think RAI has a place when it comes to clear, obvious misprints. I'm thinking here of the 1d43 scorpion whips, with an inexplicably empty cell in the next column over in the table.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    More importantly in this case, it's "developer intent" liable to be rolled back as soon as someone points out that the long rest rule referenced is for sleep deprivation, and asks if he's saying AotM warlocks still suffer from sleep deprivation
    Elves don't sleep, either. But, if they don't get some rest, they get exhausted. Just because you don't have to sleep, doesn't mean you don't have to rest. That's why it's called long and short rests, not "naps" and "full night's sleep". I wouldn't care one way or the other, if my DM house ruled that you didn't need a rest at all, though. TBH, I would never play a coffee-lock.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    Just because you don't have to sleep, doesn't mean you don't have to rest.
    What's that got to do with the price of milk?

    We're discussing a (optional) rule specifically there for sleep deprivation, and a invocation designed to remove the need to sleep.

    Saying the rule doesn't still applies means that they still suffer from sleep deprivation, despite not needing sleep.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-12-07 at 04:57 PM.

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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    What's that got to do with the price of milk?

    We're discussing a (optional) rule specifically there for sleep deprivation, and a invocation designed to remove the need to sleep.

    Saying the rule doesn't still applies means that they still suffer from sleep deprivation, despite not needing sleep.
    It's called sleep deprivation because humans need sleep, and we're the ones who invented the words. But, it's actually exhaustion. So, even if a creature doesn't need sleep, they still need rest. The spirit of the rule is that if you don't rest, you are physically drained. So, ignoring the fact that you don't need sleep shouldn't necessarily get you out of needing rest. How was I unclear about that?

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post

    We're discussing a (optional) rule specifically there for sleep deprivation, and a invocation designed to remove the need to sleep.
    You might be misremembering.

    The rule in Xanathar's deals with skipping long rests, not sleep deprivation. Crawford's tweet in the OP should have made that abundantly clear, even if the text didn't (though the text was unambiguous as well).
    Last edited by Ganymede; 2017-12-07 at 05:32 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    It's called sleep deprivation because humans need sleep, and we're the ones who invented the words. But, it's actually exhaustion. So, even if a creature doesn't need sleep, they still need rest. The spirit of the rule is that if you don't rest, you are physically drained. So, ignoring the fact that you don't need sleep shouldn't necessarily get you out of needing rest. How was I unclear about that?
    Yeah, no. The rule says it's about sleep deprivation. Explicitly.

    Instead of your torturous rationalization necessary to arrive at your so-called "intent" of the rule, they could have just left out explicitly saying it was about sleep deprivation. Then it would have just been a rule about skipping (long) rest, as you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganymede View Post
    You might be misremembering.

    The rule in Xanathar's deals with skipping long rests, not sleep deprivation. Crawford's tweet in the OP should have made that abundantly clear, even if the text didn't (though the text was unambiguous as well).
    I am not misremembering anything. I included the XtGE rule quote the OP disingenuously left out to support his position. (Which apparently isn't an actual argument he is even making, according to his later posts. Which makes him a troll.)
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-12-07 at 05:40 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    It's called sleep deprivation because humans need sleep, and we're the ones who invented the words. But, it's actually exhaustion. So, even if a creature doesn't need sleep, they still need rest. The spirit of the rule is that if you don't rest, you are physically drained. So, ignoring the fact that you don't need sleep shouldn't necessarily get you out of needing rest. How was I unclear about that?
    This is true in more ways than one.

    Sleep is necessary for at least the brain and muscles, AFAIK. Muscles do most of their growth and repair when you're asleep and not moving. All muscle use causes damage, and if you don't sleep it doesn't repair itself nearly as effectively.

    Sleep's effects on the brain are even more pronounced. Your brain builds metabolic wastes during wakefulness. During sleep (I forget exactly which phase), the brain actually shrinks by something like 60%, and cerebrospinal fluid irrigates and washes out those poisons.

    They discovered this fairly recently (in the last couple years or so), and are linking lack of sleep to all kinds of degenerative brain disorders (notably alzheimers).

    I'll try to find the documentation if requested.
    Last edited by krugaan; 2017-12-07 at 05:39 PM.
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Yeah, no. The rule says it's about sleep deprivation. Explicitly.

    Instead of your torturous rationalization necessary to arrive at your so-called "intent" of the rule, they could have just left out explicitly saying it was about sleep deprivation. Then it would have just been a rule about skipping (long) rest, as you say.


    I am not misremembering anything. I included the XtGE rule quote the OP disingenuously left out to support his position. (Which apparently isn't an actual argument. Which makes him a troll.)
    You know you're talking about people here, right? People make mistakes all the time, especially in a situation where they're in a rush (say to get out a product on time). My "torturous rationalization" is just looking logically at creatures who don't "sleep" in the same sense that humans do, and figuring out where they get the same benefits. Elves still do a meditation-like trance which does the same thing as sleep for them. Without going into a trance, they should deal with the same situation as a human without sleep. Without resting, a person who doesn't sleep should still be exhausted. It's not that big of a stretch of logic.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

    I am thankful for JC to clarify this that has lead to 6(?) threads arguing it? I do agree that the decision has unfortunately made the invocation strictly Fluff and no way mechanically beneficial. Sure, will I still use this invocation? Yes, but it will be swapped as soon as I can for the Ancient Book of secrets one.

    Just remember folks, these rulings are guidelines and each table can tweak any rules to fit the need of that table. If you really want to make it excuse the long rest penalty, talk to your DM.

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