Unarmed Fighters, the Necklace of Natural Weapons and the Sizing enchantment

[NOhara24]

Hello Playground,

I have a player who is playing a fairly well-optimized unarmed fighter. He recently stumbled upon the Necklace of Natural Weapons (Savage Species) and the Sizing enchantment (Magic Item Compendium). If I'm reading the effects of these two correctly, the result would be that he can apply the sizing enchantment to the necklace, which would then transfer its effects to his fists. Why wouldn't he simply make his fists Colossal and squash his opponents like ants?

I'm aware that there's a cumulative penalty for wielding weapons larger than the PC's size category, and then if a weapon needs more than 2 hands to wield it it's not wield-able without enchantments, items or feats, but how would this apply to natural weapons? Naturally his fists are already "one handed" weapons by default, so would him increasing the size of his fists make them a "two handed" weapon for the purpose of scaling? Or did my player find something broken as all get out and can wield his elephantitis fists with a measly -8 penalty?

EDIT: I've done some thinking on this, let me know if it makes sense. So right now his fists are "one-handed" weapons for the purpose of effort required to wield them. It takes one hand to throw a fist, right? So if he increases the size of his fist (Large), he could still attack with one hand at a -2 penalty, same as wielding a greatsword with one hand. He could also grab one fist with the other and attack without penalty, just like a greatsword. If he wanted to go beyond large, however, they would simply become too large to wield because his fists would require greater than 2 hands to wield properly. Does that make sense?

EDIT EDIT: Unarmed strikes are light weapons.

[BassoonHero]

In the first place, fists are not a weapon. Unarmed strike is a weapon. The Necklace of Natural Weapons does not enhance fists, because fists are not a weapon, but it does enhance your unarmed strike.

This to me would seem to fall in the same category as enchanting your unarmed strike as Throwing or Dancing. The rules don't clearly prohibit it, but it's patently illogical. It's reasonable to disallow it on those grounds alone. But if you want to take the rules extremely literally and allow it, then unarmed strike should observe the same rules as any other weapon, except when an explicit exception applies. In particular, the -2 penalty per size category applies as normal. However, as a special rule, unarmed strikes are always light weapons. This would seem to override the general rule that a light weapon becomes one-handed when it increases in size by one step.

I don't believe that the rules as written stop the player from wielding a Colossal unarmed strike at a corresponding penalty to attack rolls. However, you probably should stop it. If you think that the idea is reasonable in principle, then I'd suggest establishing your own mechanics —*for instance, limiting the size increase to one category.

[NOhara24]

So if I do some extrapolating - an unarmed strike is a light weapon. So let's take another light weapon, a dagger. The question is this:

Assuming a medium character and a medium dagger - if I increase the size of the dagger, does its weapon category change? Does a large dagger become a one-handed weapon? And then if it goes up in size category again, does it become a 2-handed weapon?

[GiantFlyingHog]

Wouldn't it be easier to make a custom item that casts Enlarge Person on the wearer?

[emeraldstreak]

In the first place, fists are not a weapon. Unarmed strike is a weapon. The Necklace of Natural Weapons does not enhance fists, because fists are not a weapon, but it does enhance your unarmed strike.

Patently wrong. Unarmed strikes are weapons.

So if I do some extrapolating - an unarmed strike is a light weapon. So let's take another light weapon, a dagger. The question is this:

Assuming a medium character and a medium dagger - if I increase the size of the dagger, does its weapon category change? Does a large dagger become a one-handed weapon? And then if it goes up in size category again, does it become a 2-handed weapon?

The one line to attack sizing is to claim 'specific trumps general' and say its enlargement (that normally ups the 'handed' categories) trumps the general rule that unarmed strike is always a light weapon.

[NOhara24]

Wouldn't it be easier to make a custom item that casts Enlarge Person on the wearer?

Enlarge Person increases the size of his whole character - including the full benefits (reach) and detriments (AC penalty, trouble fitting into places...etc.)

[GiantFlyingHog]

So if I do some extrapolating - an unarmed strike is a light weapon. So let's take another light weapon, a dagger. The question is this:

Assuming a medium character and a medium dagger - if I increase the size of the dagger, does its weapon category change? Does a large dagger become a one-handed weapon? And then if it goes up in size category again, does it become a 2-handed weapon?

For a manufactured weapon, yes, however you take a -2 to hit per size category difference.

[emeraldstreak]

Basically you have two options: go by the general rule (unarmed strike is always considered light) and let Sizing boost all the way to Colossal regardless of creature size (-2 attack for every step);

Or declare Sizing a specific case that always honors light->onehanded->twohanded, in which case only two increases will be possible. However, this second option makes Unarmed Strike a two-handed weapon, hello Power Attack/Strength bonuses for two-handed weapons (granted there are other ways to achive this for Unarmed Strike).

[GiantFlyingHog]

Enlarge Person increases the size of his whole character - including the full benefits (reach) and detriments (AC penalty, trouble fitting into places...etc.)

True, but it also doesn't conjure to mind a horribly misshapen monk who's body morphs depending on what body part he's using to attack. Although I suddenly have a new character idea...

On a more serious note, it would also definitely works by RAW, whereas the other is... odd, especially with how unarmed strike sometimes acts as a manufactured weapon but sometimes acts a natural weapon and sometimes just acts as it's own separate thing.

[NOhara24]

True, but it also doesn't conjure to mind a horribly misshapen monk who's body morphs depending on what body part he's using to attack. Although I suddenly have a new character idea...

Look up Warshaper

[GiantFlyingHog]

Look up Warshaper

Oh this is going to be fun. Also, this basically turns you into Luffy from One Piece at level 3. Did not expect that.

[gilan]

I'm aware that there's a cumulative penalty for wielding weapons larger than the PC's size category, and then if a weapon needs more than 2 hands to wield it it's not wield-able without enchantments, items or feats, but how would this apply to natural weapons? Naturally his fists are already "one handed" weapons by default, so would him increasing the size of his fists make them a "two handed" weapon for the purpose of scaling? Or did my player find something broken as all get out and can wield his elephantitis fists with a measly -8 penalty?

EDIT: I've done some thinking on this, let me know if it makes sense. So right now his fists are "one-handed" weapons for the purpose of effort required to wield them. It takes one hand to throw a fist, right? So if he increases the size of his fist (Large), he could still attack with one hand at a -2 penalty, same as wielding a greatsword with one hand. He could also grab one fist with the other and attack without penalty, just like a greatsword. If he wanted to go beyond large, however, they would simply become too large to wield because his fists would require greater than 2 hands to wield properly. Does that make sense?

EDIT EDIT: Unarmed strikes are light weapons.

Makes sense to me. I think unarmed strikes are meant to be treated as light weapons when they are the same size as the person wielding them. If the fist (or whatever) increases to the next size and the character's body does not, they are no longer light weapons. The most important thing is that it makes sense in the context of the magical effect provided. If this situation were my call, I'd say the player can only increase natural weapon size by one. Anything larger becomes impossible to carry or use. E.g. Medium creatures are 60-500lb, and Large are 500lb-4000lb. Huge creatures weigh between 2 and 16 tons -- there's no way a Medium creature's arms/torso could use those fists effectively. Large fists on a Medium character would be somewhere between three to eight times normal size. Plenty of increased mass for Hulksmashing.

[Vizzerdrix]

Now hows his ity bity heart gonna pump blood into those giant fists is what I want to know.

[Crake]

Patently wrong. Unarmed strikes are weapons.

I feel compelled to point at that you did not refute his point at all, and said the exact same thing as he did.

He said fists are not weapons, but unarmed strikes are. Then you said that he's wrong, unarmed strikes are weapons.... which is exactly what he just said.

[Telonius]

A Sizing Unarmed Strike would probably look something like Ms Marvel/Kamala Khan. Maybe a bit odd, but not totally out of left field (at least as far as the concept goes - RAW is a bit weirder).

[Gruftzwerg]

Now hows his ity bity heart gonna pump blood into those giant fists is what I want to know.

with the magical help of the necklace I guess..^^
"It's magic", isn't it always the answer when it comes to this kind of things?

____________

on topic:

By RAW, as others pointed out, Unarmed Strikes always count as light weapons.
Further the "unarmed strikes are always considered light weapons" doesn't come with any conditions (e.g. bound to your size).
So you only get a stacking -2 penalty for each step and can freely go up to colossal size if you want.

And btw, Unarmed Strikes are considered as light weapons only on several explicitly mentioned chases, but this doesn't turn em into "full (martial) weapons". Cause otherwise it gets silly, because of disarming or sundering an unarmed strike.. It only counts "here & there" as weapon, where it is explicitly mentioned and nowhere else! It's almost the same as with "weapon-like"(e.g. spells), both are limited in the way they "count as weapons".

________________

A Sizing Unarmed Strike would probably look something like ...

Chouji - Baika no Jutsu
(colossal sized Unarmed Strike)

[Lapak]

This to me would seem to fall in the same category as enchanting your unarmed strike as Throwing or Dancing.

Throwing is out (unless maybe you’re a Warforged with rocket fists) but Dancing? I’d allow Dancing as it included an Illusion effect to provide you with ‘fight music.’ You trigger the enchantment and suddenly your body starts flailing into wild, devastating dance moves on its own, allowing you to concentrate on whatever else you’re doing while your body autopilots its way through an action-movie fight montage.

...

(I am not being serious. Mostly.)

A Sizing Unarmed Strike would probably look something like Ms Marvel/Kamala Khan. Maybe a bit odd, but not totally out of left field (at least as far as the concept goes - RAW is a bit weirder).

This was exactly the mental image that came to me.

[Blue Jay]

Throwing is out (unless maybe you’re a Warforged with rocket fists)...

I'm not sure why throwing would be out. After all, the example given in the descriptive text for the necklace of natural weapons includes the throwing property.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm not sure why throwing would be out. After all, the example given in the descriptive text for the necklace of natural weapons includes the throwing property.

Imho the example is meant for those natural attack, that you could throw without bleeding: e.g. horn or spike attacks, maybe to some extend your claws.

[Blue Jay]

Imho the example is meant for those natural attack, that you could throw without bleeding: e.g. horn or spike attacks, maybe to some extend your claws.

Yeah, throwing is hard to visualize, but, you know... magic.

[The Glyphstone]

A throwing unarmed strike could be punching the air so hard it creates a shockwave, the way certain anime fighters do.

[Gruftzwerg]

A throwing unarmed strike could be punching the air so hard it creates a shockwave, the way certain anime fighters do.

but doesn't fit the example with throwing & returning (from the book/item description).
Why would you need the punched air to return to you?

Further lets keep in mind that the returning ability works at the "start of your next turn", which means you are about 6sec without your Natural Attack. And if you did throw your fists, imho you bleed out^^.

[WoodStock_PV]

Seems alright to me. While you're at it name the character Alex Kidd, buy him a motorcycle and be wary of rock paper scissors matches,

[The Glyphstone]

but doesn't fit the example with throwing & returning (from the book/item description).
Why would you need the punched air to return to you?

Further lets keep in mind that the returning ability works at the "start of your next turn", which means you are about 6sec without your Natural Attack. And if you did throw your fists, imho you bleed out^^.

It takes several minutes to bleed out from a severed limb, actually. Might do a point of Con damage, but the bigger immediate threat from losing a hand or arm is the shock causing unconsciousness. If throwing your fists at people like Rayman is a regular tactic, you are probably inured to that specific pain.