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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Let's say we have a 9 Cleric/8 Wizard.

    We have 9th level spell slots.

    Can we prepare 5th level spells for the cleric and 4th level spells for the wizard? Or can we prepare 9th level spells for the cleric and 9th level spells for the wizard?

    Both the cleric and wizard class reads, "The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots." Some say that this means that since you have 9th level spell slots, you can prepare 9th level spells as one or even both classes.

    The multiclass rules read, "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

    But since it doesn't say, "...as if you were a single-classed member of that class of which no other classes contribute their caster level to," some people believe that this means you get 9th level spells as a cleric and/or wizard.

    How does this all work, and what's actually going on here. Are the spell Multiclass really nonsensical, as some claim? Or do they make perfect sense and these people just misunderstanding how the rules work?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    I thought it was clear. You can prepare 9th level
    Spells but you can't know any, so you can only upcast existing spells to 9th level if you want to use those slots.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    I thought it was clear. You can prepare 9th level
    Spells but you can't know any, so you can only upcast existing spells to 9th level if you want to use those slots.
    er, the other way around, you mean? Clerics and druids always know all their spells, but can only prepare ones that their available spell slots allow.

    Regardless, it's ridiculous to assume it works the other way, because then the best sorc builds will all be 18 sorc / 1 cleric / 1 druid or 17 sorc / 2 lock / 1 cleric or druid.
    Last edited by krugaan; 2017-12-07 at 08:03 PM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    er, the other way around, you mean? Clerics and druids always know all their spells, but can only prepare ones that their available spell slots allow.

    Regardless, it's ridiculous to assume it works the other way, because then the best sorc builds will all be 18 sorc / 1 cleric / 1 druid or 17 sorc / 2 lock / 1 cleric or druid.
    No the phb is clear. Page 164
    You can prepare your spells for each class as if you were only considering the levels you have in that class.

    You add your spell slots together for the number of spells ou can cast per day.
    For spell slots higher than the level of spells you can prepare you must fill those slots with lower level spells you do know or can prepare. You do get the higher level effect though.

    So as a 9 wizard/8 cleric, you know and prepare spells as if you were a 9th level wizard and 8th level cleric respectively, and have spell slots as if you were 17th level.

    For the spell slots above the level of spells you know and can prepare, you use the lower level spells you know.

    In summary, you prepare 5th level spells but can cast as
    Up to 9th level until that slot is used up.
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-12-07 at 08:09 PM.

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    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    I thought it was clear. You can prepare 9th level
    Spells but you can't know any, so you can only upcast existing spells to 9th level if you want to use those slots.
    This is the argument for being crazy as I see it: You can prepare 9th level Cleric spells as a Sorcerer 16+ / Cleric 1 because Cleric says that you prepare your spells based on the spell slots you have available. As you use the Mutliclass table for spellcasting you have 9th level spell slots available.


    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    er, the other way around, you mean? Clerics and druids always know all their spells, but can only prepare ones that their available spell slots allow.

    Regardless, it's ridiculous to assume it works the other way, because then the best sorc builds will all be 18 sorc / 1 cleric / 1 druid or 17 sorc / 2 lock / 1 cleric or druid.
    Are you arguing for being able to prepare spells based on available spell slots?

    As an aside, that it's ridiculous isn't an argument. 3.5 showed us this

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamCreateWater View Post
    This is the argument for being crazy as I see it: You can prepare 9th level Cleric spells as a Sorcerer 16+ / Cleric 1 because Cleric says that you prepare your spells based on the spell slots you have available. As you use the Mutliclass table for spellcasting you have 9th level spell slots available.
    Yes, well there is no way this could be considered RAI.

    Sorc 20 - 15 spells known
    Sorc 19 / cleric 1 - infinity billions of spells known!
    Argue in good faith.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    The cleric thing doesn't hold water.

    Cleric spell casting is defined for cleric levels alone. Multiclassing rules specifically state you prepare each classes known/castable spells using each classes specific levels only, not the spell slots.

    As it specifically says you prepare know spells each class individually, then each class is considered its own thing and in a vacuum when it comes to spells known/prepared.
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-12-07 at 08:16 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    The cleric thing doesn't hold water.

    Cleric spell casting is defined for cleric levels alone. Multiclassing rules specifically state you prepare each classes known/castable spells using each classes specific levels only, not the spell slots.

    As it specifically says you prepare know spells each class individually, then each class is considered its own thing and in a vacuum when it comes to spells known/prepared.
    Yeah, that's what I'm saying and virtually everyone agrees on.

    Sure you can cast it with other classes spell slots. Hell, you can upcast it if you want. But you can't prepare SuperPowerfulThunderGodSmite as a level 1 cleric.
    Argue in good faith.

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    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    Yes, well there is no way this could be considered RAI.

    Sorc 20 - 15 spells known
    Sorc 19 / cleric 1 - infinity billions of spells known!
    I agree.

    I'm not sure how your eleventy-billion thing works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    The cleric thing doesn't hold water.

    Cleric spell casting is defined for cleric levels alone. Multiclassing rules specifically state you prepare each classes known/castable spells using each classes specific levels only, not the spell slots.

    As it specifically says you prepare know spells each class individually, then each class is considered its own thing and in a vacuum when it comes to spells known/prepared.
    You prepare spells as a level 1 Cleric, yes. Cleric prepares its spells according to its available spell slots - your spell slots are as per the multiclass table, it replaces your usual spell slots available.

    I believe this to be why people consider it to be poorly written.

    Edit: I think the big problem here is which part Spell Slots or Spell Preparation you prioritise. If you prioritise Spell Preparation section, you go with the RAI; if you prioritise Spell Slots, you can read it such that you get shenanigans.
    Last edited by SpamCreateWater; 2017-12-07 at 08:30 PM.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    Yeah, that's what I'm saying and virtually everyone agrees on.

    Sure you can cast it with other classes spell slots. Hell, you can upcast it if you want. But you can't prepare SuperPowerfulThunderGodSmite as a level 1 cleric.
    That's how I've always thought of it. I was just surprised that there were people actually arguing for it to work the powerful way. And more than one person. So I made a thread to stop us from going off topic in your thread. :)

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamCreateWater View Post
    I agree.

    I'm not sure how your eleventy-billion thing works.



    You prepare spells as a level 1 Cleric, yes. Cleric prepares its spells according to its available spell slots - your spell slots are as per the multiclass table, it replaces your usual spell slots available.

    I believe this to be why people consider it to be poorly written.
    You ignore the part where you treat each class individually for
    Knowing and prep. That means that you only count your cleric levels. Which means you use the available spell slots as if you were a 1st level cleric.

    Which means you get 1st level spells
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-12-07 at 08:33 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by mgshamster View Post
    That's how I've always thought of it. I was just surprised that there were people actually arguing for it to work the powerful way. And more than one person. So I made a thread to stop us from going off topic in your thread. :)
    Oh, I don't care. I created that thread as a way to escape from the unrelenting boneheadedness in the various coffeelock threads, but that seems to have died down.
    Argue in good faith.

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    I thought it was clear. You can prepare 9th level
    Spells but you can't know any, so you can only upcast existing spells to 9th level if you want to use those slots.
    If you're saying what I think you're saying, your reading allows a Sorc 19/Wiz 1 to write 9th level spells into their spellbook.

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Here's the answer you're looking for:

    As a Cleric 9/Wizard 8
    • You can know and can prepare up to 5th level cleric spells and 4th level wizard spells, as if you were only a Cleric 9, or only a Wizard 8.
    • You can cast those spells as 9th level spells using a 9th level spell slot, even though you don't know any 9th level spells.
    • You prepare spells separately for each class. Yes, this means you can have a lot more spells prepared than a single class could.
    • Basically, think of yourself as two separate characters, one a Cleric 9 and the other Wizard 8. You know the spells they would know. You can prepare the spells they can prepare.
    • BUT, you don't have the spell slots they would have. Instead, you have the spell slots of a single classed 9 + 8 = 17th level full caster.
    • Even though you don't know any spells 6th level or higher with either class, you can still upscale the spells you do know to 9th level.
    • Any spell you know can be cast using any spell slot you have. Most casters don't have separate spell slots, with warlocks being the only exception.
    • But you could cast cleric spells using the warlock's pact magic spell slots, or warlock spells using cleric spell slots.

    It has to work this way, or some variation of this, otherwise you would be able to do a single level dip into every caster class and get access to 9th level spells from all of them. Cleric 1/Bard 1/Druid 1/Wizard 17 doesn't have 9th level spells for all those classes, only for the wizard.

    Hope that answers all your questions.

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    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by mgshamster View Post
    That's how I've always thought of it. I was just surprised that there were people actually arguing for it to work the powerful way. And more than one person. So I made a thread to stop us from going off topic in your thread. :)
    Just a small nitpick. I think there were two people in the other thread and neither of them are arguing for it to work the powerful way.

    One person started it by saying that the multiclassing section is poorly written because you can read it in such a way that you get crazy things.
    The other person, me, has been trying to further explain and unpack to others why it works that way (from what I can see).

    Edit: Ugh, too many replies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    You ignore the part where you treat each class individually for
    Knowing and prep. That means that you only count your cleric levels. Which means you use the available spell slots as if you were a 1st level cleric.

    Which means you get 1st level spells
    That's where the issue is. Because your spell slots don't have that same section, just the preparation section.
    Last edited by SpamCreateWater; 2017-12-07 at 08:36 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Thumbs up Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    If you're saying what I think you're saying, your reading allows a Sorc 19/Wiz 1 to write 9th level spells into their spellbook.
    Well sorcs don't have spellbooks, but sorry no. I clarified what I meant further in. Apologies if it wasn't clear

    When I say prepare 9th level spells I meant you can cast spells in those slots. However you only know spells equal to the level of the individual class.

    So you know a 5th level slot but can cast it as 9th level.

    Was my fault for forgetting for a second no one prepares spells in advance anymore
    That's where the issue is. Because your spell slots don't have that same section, just the preparation section.
    No. The spell slots combine only for the purposes of casting spells.

    When it comes to preparation the rules are explicit that you consider each class as if it were its own separate entity and you ignore any other classes.

    That means when preparing spells as a cleric total spell slots does not factor in- only the spell slots you would get as if you were a cleric equal to the number of cleric levels you have.

    Remember the known prepared area says "as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

    So if you have x class of cleric, you prepare it as if you were a SINGLE CLASSED CLERIC OF X LEVEL.

    Any other levels are superfluous and do not factor in. This includes the spell slots you would get for the levels in those
    Classes.
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-12-07 at 08:42 PM.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Anything in the Classes chapter uses class level.
    If you are a 9th cleric, you are only a 9th cleric when using cleric features.

    And cleric is no different from other classes:
    - bard "learn [...] you have spell slots"
    - cleric "prepare [...] you have spell slots"
    - druid "prepare [...] you have spell slots"
    - EK "learn [...] you have spell slots"
    - paladin "prepare [...] you have spell slots"
    - ranger "learn [...] you have spell slots"
    - AT "learn [...] you have spell slots"
    - sorcerer "learn [...] you have spell slots"
    - wizard "add [...] you have spell slots"
    The "you" here is the single-classed "you", not the MC "you".

    Warlock is the only exception, with "no higher than [table]"


    Now, those who read it differently are using the same perverted logic as those who wanted lifedrinker at level 12. They were shot down.
    I'd rather be wrong than roundabout. Use your judgement.
    A point too clear stands on its own, I won't add to it.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamCreateWater View Post
    The other person, me, has been trying to further explain and unpack to others why it works that way (from what I can see)
    Then I misunderstood you, good sir, and I apologise for it.

    Still, it's an idea to pursue for clarity's sake. :)

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    No offense spamdrinkwater, but this argument is such low hanging fruit that everyone is willing to jump in here.

    And not only because it would naturally follow for every caster to dip one or two levels into cleric or druid to gain a vastly expanded spell pool, particularly bards and sorcs.
    Last edited by krugaan; 2017-12-07 at 08:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by mgshamster View Post
    Then I misunderstood you, good sir, and I apologise for it.

    Still, it's an idea to pursue for clarity's sake. :)
    No issues have arisen from this misunderstanding, so all's forgiven.

    At least, until the screaming hordes come knocking at my door. Then we shall have words

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    No offense spamdrinkwater, but this argument is such low hanging fruit that everyone is willing to jump in here.
    I fail to see what offense I could take. People have been arguing the exact same thing and I continue to make the same point straight back at them. It really doesn't feel like this conversation is going anywhere.
    Last edited by SpamCreateWater; 2017-12-07 at 08:45 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamCreateWater View Post
    I fail to see what offense I could take. People have been arguing the exact same thing and I continue to make the same point straight back at them. It really doesn't feel like this conversation is going anywhere.
    It really isn't, we should switch to nonsensical ad hominems.

    SpamCreateWater is a ... is a DUMB name.
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    What about my point that in preparation process you only factor in the classes of each spell casting level as if you were single classed for the number of levels you have for the class?

    I.e. Any other level base variables such as combined spell slots are ignored

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    It really isn't, we should switch to nonsensical ad hominems.

    SpamCreateWater is a ... is a DUMB name.
    You're krugaan for a bruisin', buddy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    What about my point that in preparation process you only factor in the classes of each spell casting level as if you were single classed for the number of levels you have for the class?

    I.e. Any other level base variables such as combined spell slots are ignored
    I've answered this several times It's the whole reason this conversation is happening in the first place.
    Your I.E. doesn't translate to what is said.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamCreateWater View Post
    You're krugaan for a bruisin', buddy.



    I've answered this several times It's the whole reason this conversation is happening in the first place.
    Your I.E. doesn't translate to what is said.
    From the phb:
    "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class."

    Replace the word ranger with cleric and pretend it's talking about the number of spells a cleric can prepare. My I.e. makes more sense. Your other class levels do not factor in whatsoever. This includes spell slots you may have from having levels in those classes.
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-12-07 at 09:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamCreateWater View Post
    You're krugaan for a bruisin', buddy.
    Lol, touché.

    I've answered this several times It's the whole reason this conversation is happening in the first place.
    Your I.E. doesn't translate to what is said.
    Wait, I got this one, Mikal:

    Mikal: "You can't separate part of the rule from the entirety of the rule. The rule states you prepare spells as if you are a single classed caster of appropriate level. A single classed caster only has slots of only up to X level, so you may only prepare spells of up to X level of that class. Only after the whole preparation phase is complete can you then cast these spells at the appropriate level using multiclass slots."

    Spam: "No, because of all the stuff I said earlier."

    Mikal: "Lets ask JC then!"

    JC: "Oh, you can totally ignore parts of rules you don't like. See what I did with the Aspect of the Moon thing? I hate you, Mikal, logic doesn't come into it at all."

    Mikal: "God f!@(!D!H@ !@(&!($&!(@&($"

    ME: BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    SpamCreateWater, are you saying that a Sorcerer 19/Wiz 1 can prepare 9th level Wizard spells in their Wizard spellbook, due to having 9th level spell slots?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    ... I second this krugaan for a bruising sentiment.
    If only because your premise is frighteningly apt on how this would probably play out.
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-12-07 at 09:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    ... I second this krugaan for a bruising sentiment.
    If only because your premise is frighteningly apt on how this would probably play out.
    The only real solution is to find JC and ask if you can have some of whatever he's smoking, LOL.

    I really think your interpretation is the correct one, and he just went: "huh, can't have coffeelock shenanigans at too low a level."
    Last edited by krugaan; 2017-12-07 at 09:08 PM.
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    And try to remember that these are people.

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    Lol, touché.



    Wait, I got this one, Mikal:

    Mikal: "You can't separate part of the rule from the entirety of the rule. The rule states you prepare spells as if you are a single classed caster of appropriate level. A single classed caster only has slots of only up to X level, so you may only prepare spells of up to X level of that class. Only after the whole preparation phase is complete can you then cast these spells at the appropriate level using multiclass slots."

    Spam: "No, because of all the stuff I said earlier."

    Mikal: "Lets ask JC then!"

    JC: "Oh, you can totally ignore parts of rules you don't like. See what I did with the Aspect of the Moon thing? I hate you, Mikal, logic doesn't come into it at all."

    Mikal: "God f!@(!D!H@ !@(&!($&!(@&($"

    ME: BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    Anyone have a twitter account that they can remember the password/username/email address for?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    SpamCreateWater, are you saying that a Sorcerer 19/Wiz 1 can prepare 9th level Wizard spells in their Wizard spellbook, due to having 9th level spell slots?
    Aside from the "I'm not saying that, I'm just attempting to explain to others" disclaimer ... I couldn't tell you. The Wizard has a spellbook section, from memory, and I don't know what is says in there.

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    Default Re: Multiclass and Spells - how does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    ... I second this krugaan for a bruising sentiment.
    If only because your premise is frighteningly apt on how this would probably play out.
    This is an old issue. JC's answered tons of questions in this vein already. And you're in the right.

    Clr 1/Wiz 9 must roll a Wis check to cast Greater Restoration from a scroll.

    Clr 2/Wiz 2 cannot write 2nd level Wiz spells into their spellbook. They can only cast 1st level spells from their 2nd level slots.

    Druid 19/Wiz 1 cannot scribe 9th level Wiz spells into their spellbook.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamCreateWater View Post
    Aside from the "I'm not saying that, I'm just attempting to explain to others" disclaimer ... I couldn't tell you. The Wizard has a spellbook section, from memory, and I don't know what is says in there.
    Just checking. I wasnt sure on your position as it wasn't entirely clear to me.
    Last edited by LeonBH; 2017-12-07 at 09:13 PM.

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