What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

[Mad Humanist]

Obviously Hilgya is a brave strong female character but also biased, reckless and being played for laughs. But I'd really like to get a feel for what her "sisters" think of her.

[Euclidodese]

To quote Futurama:

"Being a bum knows no gender."

[Zmeoaice]

I thought she was just a hedonistic villain, but her current rant against Durkon shows she's unable to take any sort of responsibility.

[Lord Joeltion]

Obviously Hilgya is a brave strong female character but also biased, reckless and being played for laughs.

Doesn't that description fits Haley too? And, in a genderless sense: V? Or a lot of the cast, really

[DaggerPen]

Weirdly, I think it's jarring to see how intact the 'disproportionate reaction to legitimately sucky situations that she immediately blames on the nearest convenient target and goes off the rails' part of her character is now that the rest of the comic has grown so much. It's completely in keeping with what I know of her, but it's a real throwback to the early days, which is why I think it's throwing so many people in turn. However, I trust the Giant to go somewhere interesting with this.

As for the gender aspect? I'll be honest, I kind of hate the term "strong female character". Too many people think it's synonymous with "woman who kicks *** and takes names and is harsh and cold with everyone", and it results in a lot of writers who have these great, nuanced male characters and then a few female characters with the same exact 2-dimensional personality. I prefer interesting, diverse female characters with depth, nuance and a balance of flaws and strengths.

If every single female character in the comic were like Hilgya, I would no longer be reading this comic. But OOTS has gotten a lot better with gender over the years and has a lot of good nuanced female characters now, and Hilgya is just one of them. However... strong she may come on here, I'm willing to give her for more than three pages to get to know her as she is in the post-gag-a-day era.

[InvisibleBison]

Obviously Hilgya is a brave strong female character but also biased, reckless and being played for laughs. But I'd really like to get a feel for what her "sisters" think of her.

I have to ask, why do you think there would be any correlation between people's reaction to Hilgya and their gender?

[Emanick]

I have to ask, why do you think there would be any correlation between people's reaction to Hilgya and their gender?

Her situation is arguably something that women can understand better, because men never have to worry about dealing with the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy after their romantic partner abandons them. (NB: Durkon "abandoning" Hilgya is an uncharitable way of putting it, but it seems to reflect Hilgya's view of the matter and is technically accurate.)

Are most women actually going to view Hilgya differently than most men? No idea. I wouldn't assume as much. But I don't think it's sexist to think there might be a gender gap when it comes to perceptions of her situation.

Edit: Side note - I agree with DaggerPen, "strong female character" is such a cliche and I am glad I am not the only one who is tired of the phrase. Depicting women as tough, somewhat abrasive butt-kickers is all well and good, but it's hardly groundbreaking anymore (if it ever was). It's both dull characterization (playing against outdated stereotypes that few people still take seriously is not the same as depicting a realistic and interesting personality) and not nearly as progressive as some people seem to think; making a woman seem three-dimensional humanizes her much more than giving her a single positive trait and emphasizing it constantly.

[georgie_leech]

Her situation is arguably something that women can understand better, because men never have to worry about dealing with the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy after their romantic partner abandons them. (NB: Durkon "abandoning" Hilgya is an uncharitable way of putting it, but it seems to reflect Hilgya's view of the matter and is technically accurate.)

Are most women actually going to view Hilgya differently than most men? No idea. I wouldn't assume as much. But I don't think it's sexist to think there might be a gender gap when it comes to perceptions of her situation.

Edit: Side note - I agree with DaggerPen, "strong female character" is such a cliche and I am glad I am not the only one who is tired of the phrase. Depicting women as tough, somewhat abrasive butt-kickers is all well and good, but it's hardly groundbreaking anymore (if it ever was). It's both dull characterization (playing against outdated stereotypes that few people still take seriously is not the same as depicting a realistic and interesting personality) and not nearly as progressive as some people seem to think; making a woman seem three-dimensional humanizes her much more than giving her a single positive trait and emphasizing it constantly.

Potentially relevant.

[Darth Paul]

Potentially relevant.

For the first two minutes after clicking your link I thought you were talking about a commercial for stop-smoking pills, because there was a woman in it... then I realized...

[Mad Humanist]

I have to ask, why do you think there would be any correlation between people's reaction to Hilgya and their gender?

I don't presume there is any correlation. I am just aware that I have a different set of experiences to women and this may effect perceptions of Hilgya. Of course all men have different experiences as well but there definitely are correlations between certain experiences and gender.

These comments seem very apt and roughly the same as what I was saying.

Her situation is arguably something that women can understand better, because men never have to worry about dealing with the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy after their romantic partner abandons them. (NB: Durkon "abandoning" Hilgya is an uncharitable way of putting it, but it seems to reflect Hilgya's view of the matter and is technically accurate.)

Are most women actually going to view Hilgya differently than most men? No idea. I wouldn't assume as much. But I don't think it's sexist to think there might be a gender gap when it comes to perceptions of her situation.

Edit: Side note - I agree with DaggerPen, "strong female character" is such a cliche and I am glad I am not the only one who is tired of the phrase. Depicting women as tough, somewhat abrasive butt-kickers is all well and good, but it's hardly groundbreaking anymore (if it ever was). It's both dull characterization (playing against outdated stereotypes that few people still take seriously is not the same as depicting a realistic and interesting personality) and not nearly as progressive as some people seem to think; making a woman seem three-dimensional humanizes her much more than giving her a single positive trait and emphasizing it constantly.

[EternalMelon]

Weirdly, I think it's jarring to see how intact the 'disproportionate reaction to legitimately sucky situations that she immediately blames on the nearest convenient target and goes off the rails' part of her character is now that the rest of the comic has grown so much. It's completely in keeping with what I know of her, but it's a real throwback to the early days, which is why I think it's throwing so many people in turn. However, I trust the Giant to go somewhere interesting with this.

As for the gender aspect? I'll be honest, I kind of hate the term "strong female character". Too many people think it's synonymous with "woman who kicks *** and takes names and is harsh and cold with everyone", and it results in a lot of writers who have these great, nuanced male characters and then a few female characters with the same exact 2-dimensional personality. I prefer interesting, diverse female characters with depth, nuance and a balance of flaws and strengths.

If every single female character in the comic were like Hilgya, I would no longer be reading this comic. But OOTS has gotten a lot better with gender over the years and has a lot of good nuanced female characters now, and Hilgya is just one of them. However... strong she may come on here, I'm willing to give her for more than three pages to get to know her as she is in the post-gag-a-day era.

Everything here is perfect, and exactly what I want to say but in better words. From the disparity between old and new characterization to the trust in the Giants writing to the distaste for "strong female charecter" stereotype.

Potentially relevant.

Great video, reminds me of Lindsay Ellis's new stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[Graustein]

It's too soon to tell where Rich is going with this but for the moment I think she's an interesting character who is written annoyingly (and surprisingly for OotS) flat. I hope we get more of her interiority, and soon, because so far it's her overwrought and decontextualised emotional outbursts against thousands of pages of us knowing Durkon and being able to think "hey, he's not like that at all!" and us not ever seeing her attempts to contact him. Which, I know it would have spoiled her return, but I really hope to get a flashback to ignored or failed Sending spells or something, and soon. The alternative, that she didn't actually ever try to contact him and is just projecting a whole lot and is just being an Irrational Woman is really not a pleasant one to dwell on.

So. I don't have enough context yet and will have to see how it unfolds, but I'm definitely on edge about it.

[Euclidodese]

The alternative, that she didn't actually ever try to contact him and is just projecting a whole lot and is just being an Irrational Woman is really not a pleasant one to dwell on.

Why is that unpleasant?
There are a lot of irrational people in the world, and a lot of irrational characters in fiction, does every irrational character have to be male, does every female character have to be rational? (Sounds dull)

Wouldn't it actually be kind of cool and fresh to have the woman with a baby in her arms playing a heelish role?

Not all monsters have fangs, not everything with wings is an angel etc. etc.

[Mad Humanist]

The alternative, that she didn't actually ever try to contact him and is just projecting a whole lot and is just being an Irrational Woman is really not a pleasant one to dwell on.

Why is that unpleasant?

There is a stereotype of the nagging, neurotic, irrational wife.

[Euclidodese]

There is a stereotype of the nagging, neurotic, irrational wife.

I feel there is almost no limit to the things that people claim 'conform to negative stereotypes,' but I don't think the presence of nagging wives in fiction means that every female character going forwards needs to be tediously rational about everything they do.

That way you end up with the US sitcoms where every man is Icarus and every woman is Cassandra and every laugh is canned.

People will project, people will shift the blame, they'll act like wounded gazelles, they'll cut off their noses to spite their faces, and they'll do a thousand other irrational things, such is life.

Personally, I'd really rather like Hilgya to turn out as a villain, as I say, presenting a woman with pig-tails and a baby in her arms as anything other than a blameless cherub is pretty fresh and different.

[Graustein]

Why is that unpleasant?
There are a lot of irrational people in the world, and a lot of irrational characters in fiction, does every irrational character have to be male, does every female character have to be rational? (Sounds dull)

Wouldn't it actually be kind of cool and fresh to have the woman with a baby in her arms playing a heelish role?

Not all monsters have fangs, not everything with wings is an angel etc. etc.

Of course not every female character has to be rational. I'd love for more fictional women who get to be silly in the way that Elan gets to be silly (Veldrina for instance!). That doesn't make the Hysterical Woman Whose Interiority We Don't Get To See Chasing Her Child's Deadbeat Dad not an overdone trope that I really hope Rich is going to steer away from. The issue isn't really that she's not a rational person, the issue is if she's a two-dimensional stereotype or not.

As I said, I'm waiting to see how this plays out, but I've seen enough hysterical women written poorly by men to feel justifiably wary when it appears that it might be showing up here, even given how much Rich has improved in writing women.

[Euclidodese]

Hmmm... I'm not sure I'm aware of the trope of 'Villainous Loving Mother Of Small Child.' I may be wrong, I don't watch much TV and stuff, but I don't think it's very common to see a non-supporting dad portrayed as a goodie and a hardworking and protective single mum portrayed as a baddy.

Surely what you said you were hoping we'd see, her turning out to be in the right, having attempted to contact Durkon with Sendings and stuff would much more closely fit how these character types are typical portrayed?

Nonetheless, as you say, we've not had many strips post-Hilgya's return yet, there's only so many dimensions you can get in two and a half pages, and I'm sure she'll be a much more fleshed out character by the time she dies horribly and has her child adopted by Elan leaves us.

(Maybe she went to the temple of Thor and asked them to contact Durkon, and the old high priest who's now dead, and who's name escapes me, pretended to cast Sending to Durkon and told her Durkon ignored the spells, but really he didn't cast them because he didn't want to lure Durkon home. That would make sense... But as I say, would rid us of an interesting and unique villain.)

[zimmerwald1915]

To quote Futurama:

"Being a bum knows no gender."

Now that's simply not true. The reality of bum-hood strikes everyone - and it strikes women and trans people especially hard. But the mythology of the bum, the hobo, the drifter, is very male-centered. Funny how that works out.

[ti'esar]

Hmmm... I'm not sure I'm aware of the trope of 'Villainous Loving Mother Of Small Child.' I may be wrong, I don't watch much TV and stuff, but I don't think it's very common to see a non-supporting dad portrayed as a goodie and a hardworking and protective single mum portrayed as a baddy.

With regard to that very specific trope, I actually agree, but there's a broader 'irrational vengeful ex-girlfriend' stereotype that is both common and pernicious - and while I personally am not going to make any real judgments yet, since this arc has barely begun, I would think it's pretty understandable why people are concerned about Hilgya potentially falling into that cliche.

[Euclidodese]

Now that's simply not true. The reality of bum-hood strikes everyone - and it strikes women and trans people especially hard. But the mythology of the bum, the hobo, the drifter, is very male-centered. Funny how that works out.

In Futurama, the speaker is using the term bum as a catch-all to basically mean 'a failure/loser.'

Estimates vary, but they generally put the gender-ratios of the chronically homeless at around one woman to every four or five men.
This will be down to a combination of obvious factors. (Prostitution, stoicism-based male gender roles which prevent men from seeking help when they're suffering from mental health issues or financial troubles, a lack of charitable support for men, traditional familial support structures, the fact that there's more male veterans, women sticking in horrendous relationships when they have no where else to go, etc. etc.)

People quite like the image of a noble, wise homeless man, drifting from town to town, passing out sage advice, finding glasses that let you see who is really a zombie, etc. etc. which is very far from the truly horrific realities.

I think traditional gender norms may mean that people see the image of a homeless woman as someone who needs protecting and looking after, someone who didn't get the help they needed, but may mean that people see a homeless man as someone who has screwed up and has got themselves into that situation through their own fault.

(In other words: The gender binary sucks horse-bits... Also, there would be plenty of homes if we just banned golf and nationalised all the golf courses, and also there would be no golf, so a win-win!)

[hamishspence]

there's a broader 'irrational vengeful ex-girlfriend' stereotype that is both common and pernicious

The trope does incorporate males:

Psycho Ex

[Mad Humanist]

(Maybe she went to the temple of Thor and asked them to contact Durkon, and the old high priest who's now dead, and who's name escapes me, pretended to cast Sending to Durkon and told her Durkon ignored the spells, but really he didn't cast them because he didn't want to lure Durkon home. That would make sense... But as I say, would rid us of an interesting and unique villain.)

Maybe it would lose us an "interesting and unique villain" but in return it would give us a Hilgya backstory that makes sense.

[hamishspence]

(Maybe she went to the temple of Thor and asked them to contact Durkon, and the old high priest who's now dead, and who's name escapes me, pretended to cast Sending to Durkon and told her Durkon ignored the spells, but really he didn't cast them because he didn't want to lure Durkon home. That would make sense... But as I say, would rid us of an interesting and unique villain.)

Hurak passed away 3 years before Durkon sent the letter to him at the end of No Cure For The Paladin Blues.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html

Given that a lot less than 3 years (a few months at most) pass between the end of Dungeon Crawling Fools, and No Cure For The Paladin Blues, he couldn't have conned Hilgya.

[Euclidodese]

Hurak passed away 3 years before Durkon sent the letter to him at the end of No Cure For The Paladin Blues.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html

Given that a lot less than 3 years (a few months at most) pass between the end of Dungeon Crawling Fools, and No Cure For The Paladin Blues, he couldn't have conned Hilgya.

Ah, damn. I thought it was more recent than that... Also she asks in 1105 which way it is to the Temple of Thor, so she's probably not visited before.

[SilverCacaobean]

As for the gender aspect? I'll be honest, I kind of hate the term "strong female character". Too many people think it's synonymous with "woman who kicks *** and takes names and is harsh and cold with everyone", and it results in a lot of writers who have these great, nuanced male characters and then a few female characters with the same exact 2-dimensional personality. I prefer interesting, diverse female characters with depth, nuance and a balance of flaws and strengths.

I'm leaving this here.

Of course not every female character has to be rational. I'd love for more fictional women who get to be silly in the way that Elan gets to be silly (Veldrina for instance!). That doesn't make the Hysterical Woman Whose Interiority We Don't Get To See Chasing Her Child's Deadbeat Dad not an overdone trope that I really hope Rich is going to steer away from. The issue isn't really that she's not a rational person, the issue is if she's a two-dimensional stereotype or not.

As I said, I'm waiting to see how this plays out, but I've seen enough hysterical women written poorly by men to feel justifiably wary when it appears that it might be showing up here, even given how much Rich has improved in writing women.

Agree and I'm also waiting. Three pages is too soon to reach a conclusion.

[hamishspence]

I'd say that Hilgya's perspective on Durkon has heavy overtones of Evil Does Not Comprehend Good:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ComprehendGood

thus - her assumption that he's "deeply unscrupulous".

[Ruck]

As for the gender aspect? I'll be honest, I kind of hate the term "strong female character". Too many people think it's synonymous with "woman who kicks *** and takes names and is harsh and cold with everyone", and it results in a lot of writers who have these great, nuanced male characters and then a few female characters with the same exact 2-dimensional personality. I prefer interesting, diverse female characters with depth, nuance and a balance of flaws and strengths.

Joss Whedon is writing you a letter now about how it's not his fault he wrote "strong female characters" in the way you described; feminism made him do it.

[Mad Humanist]

Joss Whedon is writing you a letter now about how it's not his fault he wrote "strong female characters" in the way you described; feminism made him do it.

So what? Hilgya IS Buffy the Vampire Slayer? The Chosen One? Now I am scared.

[Ruck]

So what? Hilgya IS Buffy the Vampire Slayer? The Chosen One? Now I am scared.

I don't think Hilgya fits DaggerPen's description. Whedon, however, seems to get a lot of praise for writing "strong female characters," although they're almost all exactly that type of "woman who kicks *** and takes names and is harsh and cold with everyone." And he's fond of proclaiming himself a male feminist, but earlier this year his wife revealed he cheated on her with a number of his actresses (which is troubling in terms of the power dynamic even if you think their relationship is a private matter), and in truly ridiculous, weasel fashion, confessed it to her in a letter where he essentially blamed feminism for surrounding him with these women he couldn't resist.

[Euclidodese]

There's nothing more annoying to read than something written by someone who thinks a character being strong is the same as a character being flawless.
Although I feel the list of flaws you can give female characters without them being accused of reinforcing one negative gender stereotype or another is getting awfully short these days...
Male characters can have any flaw and no one ever complains, which must be quite liberating when designing them.

If you took every character in a chosen fictional universe and flipped their genders, but changed nothing else about them, it would be interesting to see how many of those previously male three-dimensional characters would now be classed as 'negative representations of women' for one petty reason or another.

I almost always design the character first and roll a die to determine the gender afterwards (the sole exception being characters who's names are puns) I started doing that as a conscious effort to avoid even accidentally following male or female gender norms, since the gender binary can go sniff itself.