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2018-01-03, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
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- Over the Rainbow
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Well, that's where I disagree with them. There's no "choice" at all when I have no agency. As in "the only other option is (almost) certain death". Killing for survival has nothing to do with moral*. It's merely instinct, it's Basics for Life 101. If there was a secondary choice that wouldn't involve dooming the whole situation to disaster, then I would agree there's a moral choice to make. Having agency involves a lot more of conditions other than choosing between A and B. It's about who has the real control of the situation. If a sadist puts me between a rock and a hard place; I have lost all my agency, therefore, I'm powerless to make an actual choice.
*That doesn't mean Moral or Ethics shouldn't study those situations. What I mean is that no satisfactory answer can truly be found, from my perspective.
I understood that part, and I agree maximization is something to be taken into account. My issue is with situations so extreme that wouldn't allow a "less optimal" solution. In the case of the ship, risking the survival of the entire crew in order to maximize the number of total survivals is simply madness. It's essentially gambling the odds. Which is inherently irrational, regardless utilitarianism.
In that case, There would be two choices: Either maximize the number of survivors that includes the greatest number of technicians needed while steering the course of the ship to a safe zone other than the hostile planet; or prevent the death of the diplomat at all costs. The latter is a situation where military achievement primes over the security of the teams; but that also depends how much military success is needed ASAP for the nation that sent the ship in the first place. If the people who control the ship are a third party, then they may disagree and rather save the crew than worry for a war that doesn't affect them directly
Miko is the New Black
Hilgya, on the other hand; is completely and utterly irrational. She modifies her narrative and doesn't just jump into conclusions: she reinterprets life in a way that benefits her narrative the most; thus asserting completely made-up factoids that don't even deserve to be called "conclusions", because most of them don't even follow a certain rationale. She "assumes" Durkon is a womanizer because that justifies her feelings towards him. She justifies her actions by accusing (apparently, with no basis) Ivar of being an oppressive husband (while, in fact, it's her society the one to blame). She makes petty excuses for practically everything and is constantly looking for more factoids that fit her narrative (like with Hayley) disregarding everything else. Miko was crazy and delusional. Hilgya is just self-centred and petty.
So yeah, within the story, Miko and Hilgya are nothing alike.Last edited by Lord Joeltion; 2018-01-03 at 12:56 PM.
(sic)
My English non très bueno, da? CALL: 0800-BADGRINGO
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2018-01-03, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Congratulations. You're a Consequentialist of some variety or other.
In that case, There would be two choices: Either maximize the number of survivors that includes the greatest number of technicians needed while steering the course of the ship to a safe zone other than the hostile planet; or prevent the death of the diplomat at all costs. The latter is a situation where military achievement primes over the security of the teams; but that also depends how much military success is needed ASAP for the nation that sent the ship in the first place. If the people who control the ship are a third party, then they may disagree and rather save the crew than worry for a war that doesn't affect them directly
To be honest I've kind of lost track of why we're discussing this in the first place now.
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2018-01-04, 12:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
- Location
- Calgary, AB
- Gender
Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
I contributed by responding to people thinking utilitarianism was "Doing jerkish things to people because it benefits us/me." I understand where the confusion comes from, but I think it's an important distinction to make that the ethical calculus for utilitarianism is a little bit more complicated than "but does it benefit me directly?"
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2018-01-04, 04:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-01-04, 05:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Well, to a rather substantial degree, they *did* choose her. They accepted her as a paladin, and put up with her crazy until she literally murdered her lord for no good reason. They did it without verbal justification, but I'd like to think that at least *some* of The Twelve were thinking "maybe we should have given her some more hints that she was on the wrong f***ing path before she crossed the line twice and we had to strike her down."
Last edited by eilandesq; 2018-01-04 at 05:07 AM.
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2018-01-04, 05:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
The fact that she had reasonable suspicions doesn't justify how she decided to act on them--Hinjo agreed that Shojo's actions were criminal and needed to be prosecuted: the problem arose when Miko decided that the only way to deal with the situation on the eve of a massive invasion was to summarily execute Shojo.
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2018-01-04, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2014
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- A Michigan Far, Far Away
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
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2018-01-04, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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- Italy
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Not at all. I was being no less verbose than you are. I like dissecting arguments at lenght.
Oooh, a chance to show off! I'm normally so humble and quiet.
Uuuuuuusually.
There's the case of the sadistic guards, who really enjoy torturing prisoners.
Like, enjoy it way more than the prisoners enjoy 'not being tortured'.
And then there are utility monsters, who feel so much happiness that everyone else gets drowned out and stops mattering.
Both of them can beat up minorities as much as they want.
Without anything weird going on, though, yeah, they'd just say that wealth has diminishing marginal utility and that actually taking it would create disutility, so it's net-negative.
Don't tell them that happiness isn't measurable, you'll break their hearts the poor things.
Utilitarianism says that making someone sad by debunking utilitarianism is morally wrong.
In fact, I don't know of any moral philosophy that doesn't end up horribly twisted if taken to the extreme. For example, the "exalted good" philosophy described in the book of exalted deeds states that you should not tell a small lie to prevent the destruction of the world, because a lie is always immoral, while the resulting destruction of the world is something outside your agency. That's "the end does not justify the mean" taken to the extreme. Other philosophies result in other kind of garbage.
I think the only thing it shows is that one should not take a single philosophhy as the sole moral judge.In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.
Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you
my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert
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2018-01-04, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
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2018-01-04, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
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- Over the Rainbow
- Gender
Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Thank you? Dunno, the "ends justify the means" doesn't quite fit my character at all. I'm more of a "the needs of the many..." type. Anyway, my interest in moral and ethics is mostly superficial, I think.
I think it was that I had issues with utilitarian scenarios that steal any form of agency from the subjects. Another issue I have with people arguing utilitarianism (not the authors, just people); is the ill defined method for measuring happiness. If there is in fact, such a method at all. It's a fun exercise tho, I guess.(sic)
My English non très bueno, da? CALL: 0800-BADGRINGO
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2018-01-04, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2018-01-04, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
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- Over the Rainbow
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2018-01-04, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Being a Paladin doesn't make her a "Chosen One". Finding a non-RL example after some effort, in DS9, Sisko was a Chosen One by the founders; the Bajoran priests/clerics/whatevers weren't, even though they served said Founders.
Okay. Let me play around with an example that isn't a straw man.
A kid suffers bullying in school, by several people in their class. The kid is a geek; he isn't rude or anything, he barely interacts with most people in the school, let alone to any degree of true offense that would "call" for the bullying he undergoes.
The faculty - in particular, the counselor - is faced with two options:
1- Enforcing the school rules against the perpetrators; handing out suspensions, etc. This is harder for several reasons and might create some structural problems in the long run, since the perpetrators do have a psychological "need" to vent their aggression, and it truly is more desirable for the school that they vent it on one student than that they vent it among themselves or even vandalizing the school. This option, however, has the benefit of doing right by the kid that suffers the bullying, not to mention following the rules of the school.
2- Trying to "teach" the bullied kid that it is their fault, saying things like "if everyone has a problem with you, that means you are the problem" (which is patently not true and demonstrated, in several cases and books and so on, all of which a school counselor would know, to harm victims of bullying, to be psychologically damaging to them); trying to make the bullied kid accept that his role within that structure is to be bullied. That is more efficient, gives the other kids a nice little escape valve and is, in short, much tidier for nearly all involved. At the cost of one kid's self-esteem, sense of self-worth, etc., severely damaging the kid in the process (though obviously not nearly to Omelas levels) and making the school, in general, a "better" place (again, obviously not nearly to Omelas levels).
The faculty picks 2. The utilitarian option is 2. Needs of the many.
And this isn't a strawman.
It happens in several places. I know of one specific case in which it happened.
It didn't happen to a FOAF or as a hypothetical.
It happened to me.
I said it once, I'll say it again: utilitarianism is all fun and games until someone loses an I...
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2018-01-04, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2018-01-04, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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2018-01-04, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
This is some crazy ass moon logic right here.
You don't even have to factor in the suffering of the bullied kid into the equation for this to be a terrible idea. Letting troubled kids bully someone else without consequences isn't good for anyone. That's just going to make them even worse and make them have even greater problems adjusting to leading a normal life in society. All it's doing is making them someone else's problem and kicking it down the road.
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2018-01-04, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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2018-01-04, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-01-04 at 03:18 PM.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-01-04, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Okay, I see the problem. That's not what Utilitarianism means. It's not the most useful thing for one group of people that you happen to like. It's the greatest happiness for everyone, everywhere. If you selectively ignore certain people's happiness you are actively going against the entire philosophy of it.
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2018-01-04, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
No.
That's the thing, innit?
It's not a Batman character. It's real. It happened.
Well, good for the school, at least. Heh. They now have several branches across my city...
Okay. What if the judgment call was that they'd be more well-adjusted in general by beating me up?
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2018-01-04, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
I would say that's a ridiculous judgement to make.
The scenario is bad for them because they're not learning to be well-adjusted adults.
It's bad for society because when they leave school they're a bunch of badly-adjusted adults.
And obviously it's bad for you.
The relatively minor benefit of saving the school some strife is not at all worth the massive downsides.
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2018-01-04, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
I am aware, yes. But if I am going to use someone to make insulting comparisons, I would rather avoid actual people.
Though I should probably have gone with Antonio from Paracuelos since he is an conflation of several real people and a school employee.
Did they have any change in personnel?
How do you know the logic behind their actions? Did you meet one teacher later who told you that?
EDIT
Okay. What if the judgment call was that they'd be more well-adjusted in general by beating me up?Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-01-04 at 03:34 PM.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-01-04, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
- Gender
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2018-01-04, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
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2018-01-04, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
- Location
- Brazil
- Gender
Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
If you mean since then, I don't know and, not to put too fine a point on it (and please don't take this as a snippy answer), it shouldn't really matter to me...
I connected quite a few dots over, well, some good 20 years and had my suspicions for some 15 or so.
The final one was when I read a text on bullying by a pedagogue that mentioned, as an example of horrid, dysfunctional things bullying victims tell themselves, literally what the counselor told me at least a few times, the "If everyone has a problem with you, YOU are the problem" thing.
I went on to ask two psychologist friends if a first-year psych-school sophomore would say that to a bullying victim, to make absolutely sure that it wasn't sheer incompetence, but intent.
One of them told me they would - if they wanted to, pretty much, sacrifice the bullying victim's sanity for the sake of the school. And, in short, pointed out that no, no one would say that to someone they wanted to help.
Okay, I stand corrected, then.
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2018-01-04, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-01-04, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Trust me, neither can I, and I'm a translator. But you know what the craziest part is? I doubt I'm that special. There likely are some thousands of cases just like mine, everywhere. I just happened to connect some dots and find it out. And, well, she. But, again, neither a here, nor a there...
Thanks for the sympathy, though. (I wish there were a "sad smile" emote) :P
P.S.: Many of my positions are now explained, though. Not justified or made right, but that thing does shape quite a few of my ideas.
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2018-01-04, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
Don't take it personally if I say that I sincerely hope you are wrong.
Erp derp. My native tongue treats male as the default, I tend to forget that english doesn't. Does Portuguese? Or maybe it's just that I am male.
Think nothing of it. It's not like I actually did anything.
Yeah that would be useful.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-01-04, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
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2018-01-04, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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- Turkey
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Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?
From what you sound like, Utilitarianism itself seems like a myth. There is no such thing as utilitarian choice because no one can know which choice can bring more utility into table.
Spoiler