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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    Well, it is a moral choice. Some philosophies hold it would be inherently evil to kill innocent people regardless of context.
    Well, that's where I disagree with them. There's no "choice" at all when I have no agency. As in "the only other option is (almost) certain death". Killing for survival has nothing to do with moral*. It's merely instinct, it's Basics for Life 101. If there was a secondary choice that wouldn't involve dooming the whole situation to disaster, then I would agree there's a moral choice to make. Having agency involves a lot more of conditions other than choosing between A and B. It's about who has the real control of the situation. If a sadist puts me between a rock and a hard place; I have lost all my agency, therefore, I'm powerless to make an actual choice.

    *That doesn't mean Moral or Ethics shouldn't study those situations. What I mean is that no satisfactory answer can truly be found, from my perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    This is supposed to be a fairly clear example that no, really, it is in fact sometimes okay to kill innocent people in order to maximize utility. It was supposed to be a clearer example than the above discussion on Zilsav and the Fsals because that one gets muddied by there clearly being other better options available and other assorted problems.
    I understood that part, and I agree maximization is something to be taken into account. My issue is with situations so extreme that wouldn't allow a "less optimal" solution. In the case of the ship, risking the survival of the entire crew in order to maximize the number of total survivals is simply madness. It's essentially gambling the odds. Which is inherently irrational, regardless utilitarianism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    And just for fun, let's say one of the non-engineers on the ship is a diplomat and the ship is on the way to a war zone. She's the only one who can understand the language of the Giant Alien Spiders who's closer than years of travel away. If she dies the the chances of peace die with her. If you save her life instead of one of the engineers then the chances of the ship surviving to make it there intact go down, but if she does make it to the destination it would be much more beneficial to the galaxy as a whole.

    The point is every different bit of information changes the calculus and trying to figure out what would be the best thing to do is what morality is.
    In that case, There would be two choices: Either maximize the number of survivors that includes the greatest number of technicians needed while steering the course of the ship to a safe zone other than the hostile planet; or prevent the death of the diplomat at all costs. The latter is a situation where military achievement primes over the security of the teams; but that also depends how much military success is needed ASAP for the nation that sent the ship in the first place. If the people who control the ship are a third party, then they may disagree and rather save the crew than worry for a war that doesn't affect them directly

    Miko is the New Black
    I think Miko, while delusional and bat-poop crazy; was following a rational path, from her perspective. Her suspicions followed and matched the clues and hints she had found. The only mistake she did was just jumping into conclusions and acting upon her suspicions rather than try to gather more information. But her narrative wasn't deluded or crazy, she was honestly following a rational path. She simply behaved in a manner that wasn't fitting for a rational person. But her suspicions and her narrative had a solid foundation.

    Hilgya, on the other hand; is completely and utterly irrational. She modifies her narrative and doesn't just jump into conclusions: she reinterprets life in a way that benefits her narrative the most; thus asserting completely made-up factoids that don't even deserve to be called "conclusions", because most of them don't even follow a certain rationale. She "assumes" Durkon is a womanizer because that justifies her feelings towards him. She justifies her actions by accusing (apparently, with no basis) Ivar of being an oppressive husband (while, in fact, it's her society the one to blame). She makes petty excuses for practically everything and is constantly looking for more factoids that fit her narrative (like with Hayley) disregarding everything else. Miko was crazy and delusional. Hilgya is just self-centred and petty.

    So yeah, within the story, Miko and Hilgya are nothing alike.
    Last edited by Lord Joeltion; 2018-01-03 at 12:56 PM.
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeltion View Post
    Well, that's where I disagree with them. There's no "choice" at all when I have no agency. As in "the only other option is (almost) certain death". Killing for survival has nothing to do with moral*. It's merely instinct, it's Basics for Life 101. If there was a secondary choice that wouldn't involve dooming the whole situation to disaster, then I would agree there's a moral choice to make. Having agency involves a lot more of conditions other than choosing between A and B. It's about who has the real control of the situation. If a sadist puts me between a rock and a hard place; I have lost all my agency, therefore, I'm powerless to make an actual choice.

    I understood that part, and I agree maximization is something to be taken into account. My issue is with situations so extreme that wouldn't allow a "less optimal" solution. In the case of the ship, risking the survival of the entire crew in order to maximize the number of total survivals is simply madness. It's essentially gambling the odds. Which is inherently irrational, regardless utilitarianism.
    Congratulations. You're a Consequentialist of some variety or other.

    In that case, There would be two choices: Either maximize the number of survivors that includes the greatest number of technicians needed while steering the course of the ship to a safe zone other than the hostile planet; or prevent the death of the diplomat at all costs. The latter is a situation where military achievement primes over the security of the teams; but that also depends how much military success is needed ASAP for the nation that sent the ship in the first place. If the people who control the ship are a third party, then they may disagree and rather save the crew than worry for a war that doesn't affect them directly
    I mean, yes, you've certainly described some concerns which would probably come up. Morality would be people figuring out which one is the best option that would have the greatest positive impact on the greatest number of people and then doing it. Putting one's self interest, or the interest of a specific party instead of "everyone" first would be immoral. At least in my view.

    To be honest I've kind of lost track of why we're discussing this in the first place now.

  3. - Top - End - #573
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post

    To be honest I've kind of lost track of why we're discussing this in the first place now.
    I contributed by responding to people thinking utilitarianism was "Doing jerkish things to people because it benefits us/me." I understand where the confusion comes from, but I think it's an important distinction to make that the ethical calculus for utilitarianism is a little bit more complicated than "but does it benefit me directly?"
    Last edited by georgie_leech; 2018-01-04 at 12:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

  4. - Top - End - #574
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    I contributed by responding to people thinking utilitarianism was "Doing jerkish things to people because it benefits us/me." I understand where the confusion comes from, but I think it's an important distinction to make that the ethical calculus for utilitarianism is a little bit more complicated than "but does it benefit me directly?"
    Of course, that would be Objectivism.
    Let see if someone takes the bait.
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Her disconnect with reality has some grounds, albeit shaky, and is on a MUCH smaller scale than Miko's.

    It's "The one-night stand that dumped me is a jerk that won't take responsibility" vs. "The Gods chose me". Both are wrong, but only one is a psychiatric condition...
    Well, to a rather substantial degree, they *did* choose her. They accepted her as a paladin, and put up with her crazy until she literally murdered her lord for no good reason. They did it without verbal justification, but I'd like to think that at least *some* of The Twelve were thinking "maybe we should have given her some more hints that she was on the wrong f***ing path before she crossed the line twice and we had to strike her down."
    Last edited by eilandesq; 2018-01-04 at 05:07 AM.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCacaobean View Post
    I actually like Miko as a character. I don't think she's bat**** crazy. If you go back and check all the suspicions she had about OotS, they're pretty solid. When she killed Shojo she had heard him talk to Roy about tricking the paladins and saw Belkar, who had disemboweled a guard, out of jail with his permission, for example. Her problem is the way she acts on her suspicions as if they're confirmed facts. This stems from the fact that she believes to be chosen by the gods, which is apparently not a case of psychosis but a thing that's been said to her since she was a kid if I recall correctly.

    The way I read her is she's someone with severe social problems who's isolated socially and doesn't know how to deal with it. She'd been told that she had been chosen by the gods, but her life which is miserable doesn't really support it, so to avoid cognitive dissonance, she has to tell herself that she's the only one who's doing things the right way. As a result she treats her suspicions as facts.

    But I wouldn't call her bat****. She has reasonable suspicions.

    I also didn't know that her reason of existence was to show how not to play lawful. That seems like a bit of a silly reason to write a whole character.

    Anyway, yeah I don't think Hilgya is a carbon copy of Miko for chaotic alignment. She can actually be likeable for one. But they do share the important trait of making up a story about someone and then believing it and acting on it without making sure they're right.
    The fact that she had reasonable suspicions doesn't justify how she decided to act on them--Hinjo agreed that Shojo's actions were criminal and needed to be prosecuted: the problem arose when Miko decided that the only way to deal with the situation on the eve of a massive invasion was to summarily execute Shojo.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by eilandesq View Post
    The fact that she had reasonable suspicions doesn't justify how she decided to act on them--Hinjo agreed that Shojo's actions were criminal and needed to be prosecuted: the problem arose when Miko decided that the only way to deal with the situation on the eve of a massive invasion was to summarily execute Shojo.
    Wasn't part of the problem also that she decided that she was the ONLY one pure enough to make a decision in the case, and that anyone who disagreed with her was, simply by virtue of their disagreement, not just wrong but corrupt and Evil?
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by azaph View Post
    Are you saying I could stand to be a little less verbose?
    Not at all. I was being no less verbose than you are. I like dissecting arguments at lenght.
    Oooh, a chance to show off! I'm normally so humble and quiet.
    Uuuuuuusually.
    There's the case of the sadistic guards, who really enjoy torturing prisoners.
    Like, enjoy it way more than the prisoners enjoy 'not being tortured'.
    And then there are utility monsters, who feel so much happiness that everyone else gets drowned out and stops mattering.
    Both of them can beat up minorities as much as they want.
    Without anything weird going on, though, yeah, they'd just say that wealth has diminishing marginal utility and that actually taking it would create disutility, so it's net-negative.
    Don't tell them that happiness isn't measurable, you'll break their hearts the poor things.
    Utilitarianism says that making someone sad by debunking utilitarianism is morally wrong.
    This shows that you can't take utilitarianism to the extreme, not that it's complete garbage.
    In fact, I don't know of any moral philosophy that doesn't end up horribly twisted if taken to the extreme. For example, the "exalted good" philosophy described in the book of exalted deeds states that you should not tell a small lie to prevent the destruction of the world, because a lie is always immoral, while the resulting destruction of the world is something outside your agency. That's "the end does not justify the mean" taken to the extreme. Other philosophies result in other kind of garbage.
    I think the only thing it shows is that one should not take a single philosophhy as the sole moral judge.
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    This shows that you can't take utilitarianism to the extreme, not that it's complete garbage.
    What it shows is that Utilitarianism doesn't hold up when bombarded with ridiculous straw men. None of those examples are real things.
    Last edited by Koo Rehtorb; 2018-01-04 at 11:43 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #580
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    Congratulations. You're a Consequentialist of some variety or other.
    Thank you? Dunno, the "ends justify the means" doesn't quite fit my character at all. I'm more of a "the needs of the many..." type. Anyway, my interest in moral and ethics is mostly superficial, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    To be honest I've kind of lost track of why we're discussing this in the first place now.
    I think it was that I had issues with utilitarian scenarios that steal any form of agency from the subjects. Another issue I have with people arguing utilitarianism (not the authors, just people); is the ill defined method for measuring happiness. If there is in fact, such a method at all. It's a fun exercise tho, I guess.
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeltion View Post
    If there is in fact, such a method at all {method for measuring happiness}.
    What, this chrome plated dipstick that I'm using isn't reliable?
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    What, this chrome plated dipstick that I'm using isn't reliable?
    I guess it depends how deep you are dipping it
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by eilandesq View Post
    Well, to a rather substantial degree, they *did* choose her. They accepted her as a paladin, and put up with her crazy until she literally murdered her lord for no good reason. They did it without verbal justification, but I'd like to think that at least *some* of The Twelve were thinking "maybe we should have given her some more hints that she was on the wrong f***ing path before she crossed the line twice and we had to strike her down."
    Being a Paladin doesn't make her a "Chosen One". Finding a non-RL example after some effort, in DS9, Sisko was a Chosen One by the founders; the Bajoran priests/clerics/whatevers weren't, even though they served said Founders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    What it shows is that Utilitarianism doesn't hold up when bombarded with ridiculous straw men. None of those examples are real things.
    Okay. Let me play around with an example that isn't a straw man.

    A kid suffers bullying in school, by several people in their class. The kid is a geek; he isn't rude or anything, he barely interacts with most people in the school, let alone to any degree of true offense that would "call" for the bullying he undergoes.

    The faculty - in particular, the counselor - is faced with two options:

    1- Enforcing the school rules against the perpetrators; handing out suspensions, etc. This is harder for several reasons and might create some structural problems in the long run, since the perpetrators do have a psychological "need" to vent their aggression, and it truly is more desirable for the school that they vent it on one student than that they vent it among themselves or even vandalizing the school. This option, however, has the benefit of doing right by the kid that suffers the bullying, not to mention following the rules of the school.

    2- Trying to "teach" the bullied kid that it is their fault, saying things like "if everyone has a problem with you, that means you are the problem" (which is patently not true and demonstrated, in several cases and books and so on, all of which a school counselor would know, to harm victims of bullying, to be psychologically damaging to them); trying to make the bullied kid accept that his role within that structure is to be bullied. That is more efficient, gives the other kids a nice little escape valve and is, in short, much tidier for nearly all involved. At the cost of one kid's self-esteem, sense of self-worth, etc., severely damaging the kid in the process (though obviously not nearly to Omelas levels) and making the school, in general, a "better" place (again, obviously not nearly to Omelas levels).

    The faculty picks 2. The utilitarian option is 2. Needs of the many.

    And this isn't a strawman.

    It happens in several places. I know of one specific case in which it happened.

    It didn't happen to a FOAF or as a hypothetical.

    It happened to me.

    I said it once, I'll say it again: utilitarianism is all fun and games until someone loses an I...
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2018-01-04 at 02:53 PM.
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    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
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    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Being a Paladin doesn't make her a "Chosen One". Finding a non-RL example after some effort, in DS9, Sisko was a Chosen One by the founders; the Bajoran priests/clerics/whatevers weren't, even though they served said Founders.
    In earlier editions, it actually did. 3.5 divorced the rules requirement that paladins had to serve a god, but in OOTS a paladin's powers clearly come from their deity (or at least Miko's do).
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    In earlier editions, it actually did. 3.5 divorced the rules requirement that paladins had to serve a god, but in OOTS a paladin's powers clearly come from their deity (or at least Miko's do).
    It's the difference between Joe McJedi and LUKE SKYWAlKER. The difference between being in service to a deity and being Destined To Great Things (tm).
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    1- Enforcing the school rules against the perpetrators; handing out suspensions, etc. This is harder for several reasons and might create some structural problems in the long run, since the perpetrators do have a psychological "need" to vent their aggression, and it truly is more desirable for the school that they vent it on one student than that they vent it among themselves or even vandalizing the school. This option, however, has the benefit of doing right by the kid that suffers the bullying, not to mention following the rules of the school.
    This is some crazy ass moon logic right here.

    You don't even have to factor in the suffering of the bullied kid into the equation for this to be a terrible idea. Letting troubled kids bully someone else without consequences isn't good for anyone. That's just going to make them even worse and make them have even greater problems adjusting to leading a normal life in society. All it's doing is making them someone else's problem and kicking it down the road.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    This is some crazy ass moon logic right here.

    You don't even have to factor in the suffering of the bullied kid into the equation for this to be a terrible idea. Letting troubled kids bully someone else without consequences isn't good for anyone. That's just going to make them even worse and make them have even greater problems adjusting to leading a normal life in society. All it's doing is making them someone else's problem and kicking it down the road.
    Yes, well. It's the most useful thing for the school, no?

    Also, I take it you called option 2 crazy-ass...
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    2- Trying to "teach" the bullied kid that it is their fault, saying things like "if everyone has a problem with you, that means you are the problem" (which is patently not true and demonstrated, in several cases and books and so on, all of which a school counselor would know, to harm victims of bullying, to be psychologically damaging to them); trying to make the bullied kid accept that his role within that structure is to be bullied. That is more efficient, gives the other kids a nice little escape valve and is, in short, much tidier for nearly all involved. At the cost of one kid's self-esteem, sense of self-worth, etc., severely damaging the kid in the process (though obviously not nearly to Omelas levels) and making the school, in general, a "better" place (again, obviously not nearly to Omelas levels).

    <Snip>

    It happened to me.
    Who the hell ran that school? Dr Harleen Quinzel?

    This isn't good for anyone and it certainly isn't clever. This looks like an a posteriori self-justification.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-01-04 at 03:18 PM.
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Yes, well. It's the most useful thing for the school, no?
    Okay, I see the problem. That's not what Utilitarianism means. It's not the most useful thing for one group of people that you happen to like. It's the greatest happiness for everyone, everywhere. If you selectively ignore certain people's happiness you are actively going against the entire philosophy of it.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Who the hell ran that school? Dr Harleen Quinzel?
    No.

    That's the thing, innit?

    It's not a Batman character. It's real. It happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    This isn't good for anyone and it certainly isn't clever. This looks like an a posteriori self-justification.
    Well, good for the school, at least. Heh. They now have several branches across my city...

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    Okay, I see the problem. That's not what Utilitarianism means. It's not the most useful thing for one group of people that you happen to like. It's the greatest happiness for everyone, everywhere. If you selectively ignore certain people's happiness you are actively going against the entire philosophy of it.
    Okay. What if the judgment call was that they'd be more well-adjusted in general by beating me up?
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2018-01-04 at 03:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Okay. What if the judgment call was that they'd be more well-adjusted in general by beating me up?
    I would say that's a ridiculous judgement to make.

    The scenario is bad for them because they're not learning to be well-adjusted adults.
    It's bad for society because when they leave school they're a bunch of badly-adjusted adults.
    And obviously it's bad for you.

    The relatively minor benefit of saving the school some strife is not at all worth the massive downsides.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    No.

    That's the thing, innit?

    It's not a Batman character. it
    I am aware, yes. But if I am going to use someone to make insulting comparisons, I would rather avoid actual people.

    Though I should probably have gone with Antonio from Paracuelos since he is an conflation of several real people and a school employee.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Well, good for the school, at least. Heh. They now have several branches across my city...
    Did they have any change in personnel?

    How do you know the logic behind their actions? Did you meet one teacher later who told you that?

    EDIT

    Okay. What if the judgment call was that they'd be more well-adjusted in general by beating me up?
    That would be factually wrong though. Unchecked abuser do not turn into fully functionnal adults on their own.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-01-04 at 03:34 PM.
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    I would say that's a ridiculous judgement to make.

    The scenario is bad for them because they're not learning to be well-adjusted adults.
    It's bad for society because when they leave school they're a bunch of badly-adjusted adults.
    And obviously it's bad for you.

    The relatively minor benefit of saving the school some strife is not at all worth the massive downsides.
    So your argument is that it's not an Utilitarian position?

    (And no, I'm not accusing you of a No True Scotsman)
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    So your argument is that it's not an Utilitarian position?
    Yes. Scenarios exist in which one person suffering is the correct Utilitarian position. This is not one of them.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Did they have any change in personnel?
    If you mean since then, I don't know and, not to put too fine a point on it (and please don't take this as a snippy answer), it shouldn't really matter to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    How do you know the logic behind their actions? Did you meet one teacher later who told you that?
    I connected quite a few dots over, well, some good 20 years and had my suspicions for some 15 or so.

    The final one was when I read a text on bullying by a pedagogue that mentioned, as an example of horrid, dysfunctional things bullying victims tell themselves, literally what the counselor told me at least a few times, the "If everyone has a problem with you, YOU are the problem" thing.

    I went on to ask two psychologist friends if a first-year psych-school sophomore would say that to a bullying victim, to make absolutely sure that it wasn't sheer incompetence, but intent.

    One of them told me they would - if they wanted to, pretty much, sacrifice the bullying victim's sanity for the sake of the school. And, in short, pointed out that no, no one would say that to someone they wanted to help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    Yes. Scenarios exist in which one person suffering is the correct Utilitarian position. This is not one of them.
    Okay, I stand corrected, then.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2018-01-04 at 03:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

  26. - Top - End - #596
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    If you mean since then, I don't know and, not to put too fine a point on it (and please don't take this as a snippy answer), it shouldn't really matter to me...
    Perfectly understandable.



    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    I connected quite a few dots over, well, some good 20 years and had my suspicions for some 15 or so.

    The final one was when I read a text on bullying by a pedagogue that mentioned, as an example of horrid, dysfunctional things bullying victims tell themselves, literally what the counselor told me at least a few times, the "If everyone has a problem with you, YOU are the problem" thing.

    I went on to ask two psychologist friends if a first-year psych-school sophomore would say that to a bullying victim, to make absolutely sure that it wasn't sheer incompetence, but intent.

    One of them told me they would - if they wanted to, pretty much, sacrifice the bullying victim's sanity for the sake of the school. And, in short, pointed out that no, no one would say that to someone they wanted to help.
    Well, I can't find a word for how fundamentally wrong this is. That's a supposedly trained professional doing the exact opposite of what he is supposed to be doing.
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Well, I can't find a word for how fundamentally wrong this is. That's a supposedly trained professional doing the exact opposite of what he is supposed to be doing.
    Trust me, neither can I, and I'm a translator. But you know what the craziest part is? I doubt I'm that special. There likely are some thousands of cases just like mine, everywhere. I just happened to connect some dots and find it out. And, well, she. But, again, neither a here, nor a there...

    Thanks for the sympathy, though. (I wish there were a "sad smile" emote) :P

    P.S.: Many of my positions are now explained, though. Not justified or made right, but that thing does shape quite a few of my ideas.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2018-01-04 at 04:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Trust me, neither can I, and I'm a translator. But you know what the craziest part is? I doubt I'm that special. There likely are some thousands of cases just like mine, everywhere.
    Don't take it personally if I say that I sincerely hope you are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    And, well, she.
    Erp derp. My native tongue treats male as the default, I tend to forget that english doesn't. Does Portuguese? Or maybe it's just that I am male.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Thanks for the sympathy, though.
    Think nothing of it. It's not like I actually did anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    (I wish there was a "sad smile" emote) :P
    Yeah that would be useful.
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Don't take it personally if I say that I sincerely hope you are wrong.
    So do I!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Erp derp. My native tongue treats male as the default, I tend to forget that english doesn't. Does Portuguese? Or maybe it's just that I am male.
    So does mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Think nothing of it. It's not like I actually did anything.
    You offered sympathy. That's a thing.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2018-01-04 at 04:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    From what you sound like, Utilitarianism itself seems like a myth. There is no such thing as utilitarian choice because no one can know which choice can bring more utility into table.
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