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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    That's the point.

    She IS entitled by default not to marry someone she doesn't want to!

    People aren't entitled to other people's stuff!

    That's the difference, right there! Her body is HERS, not other people's!

    That's not a reasonable want. That's a basic right. And yes, people have the moral prerogative to do whatever it takes to ensure their rights are respected.

    She's not asking for too much. She's not asking even for food. She's asking for the right to do as she sees fit with her own body and with her own life, while living, freely, in the place where she was born. That's not "wanting to be a billionaire". That's not "wanting to rob a bank". That's WANTING TO BE A SENTIENT PERSON. That's BASIC. That's not wanting to be horribly, horribly mistreated, high up there with anyone's right not to get effing tortured.

    She shouldn't have to ask for the right to live life as she sees fit. She shouldn't have to beg for the right not to be married to someone she doesn't want to be. She has every moral right to do whatever she deems needed to ensure these her rights on that matter are respected, because bodily autonomy is a basic right of hers, and if that means upending the sick, twisted society where she lives, so much the better.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2018-03-07 at 11:52 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    and if that means upending the sick, twisted society where she lives, so much the better.
    I think that's offering Hilgya way too much credit. She might feed herself a justification about leading a revolutionary social movement, but she's very clearly not actually doing that. If she wanted to see what that looked like, she could study Redcloak.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2018-03-07 at 11:55 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #783
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I think that's offering Hilgya way too much credit. She might feed herself a justification about leading a revolutionary social movement, but she's very clearly not actually doing that. If she wanted to see what that looked like, she could study Redcloak.
    Maybe, but trying to alter society so that it is more to her liking in this case is perfectly reasonable. I'm not even claiming she *is* doing all that stuff I said, I'm claiming she has a right to, if she wishes.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

  4. - Top - End - #784
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    She shouldn't have to ask for the right to live life as she sees fit. She shouldn't have to beg for the right not to be married to someone she doesn't want to be. She has every moral right to do whatever she deems needed to ensure these her rights on that matter are respected, because bodily autonomy is a basic right of hers, and if that means upending the sick, twisted society where she lives, so much the better.
    I feel like you are deliberately ignoring what I and others are saying. I am not arguing she doesn't have a right to her body. I am not arguing she should stay in a forced marriage. I am arguing against the part of your statement I bolded/italicized above: That the right to her body gives her a right to do ANYTHING she sees fit, including attempting to murder one innocent person (Ivan) and actually murdering another innocent person (Celia's friend in the first dungeon).

    She didn't have to do either of those things; those things were not necessary to freeing her from her forced marriage (especially the second, and we can reasonably infer Ivan would not have stopped her had she just left). Those things are immoral acts that run counter to the rights she inherently possesses, and no amount of screaming "SHE HAS A RIGHT TO HER BODY!" changes the fact she does NOT have the right to murder innocent people.
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2018-03-07 at 12:27 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #785
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    I feel like you are deliberately ignoring what I and others are saying. I am not arguing she doesn't have a right to her body. I am not arguing she should stay in a forced marriage. I am arguing against the part of your statement I bolded/italicized above: That the right to her body gives her a right to do ANYTHING she sees fit, including attempting to murder one innocent person (Ivan) and actually murdering another innocent person (Sylvia's friend in the first dungeon).

    She didn't have to do either of those things; those things were not necessary to freeing her from her forced marriage (especially the second, and we can reasonably infer Ivan would not have stopped her had she just left). Those things are immoral acts that run counter to the rights she inherently possesses, and no amount of screaming "SHE HAS A RIGHT TO HER BODY!" changes the fact she does NOT have the right to murder innocent people.
    I'm not claiming she had a right to kill Celia's friend. I'm claiming she has the right to do anything thar advances her goal of seeing her right to her body and to stay in her homeland respected. And murdering Ivan qualifies because, if she is a widow, she can stay in the dwarven lands instead of being forced to run away because the moron wouldn't die.

    Killing Celia's friend, yes, that was wrong.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2018-03-07 at 12:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

  6. - Top - End - #786
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    I'm not claiming she had a right to kill Celia's friend. I'm claiming she has the right to do anything thar advances her goal of seeing her right to her body and to stay in her homeland respected. And murdering Ivan qualifies because, if she is a widow, she can stay in the dwarven lands instead of being forced to run away because the moron wouldn't die.

    Killing Celia's friend, yes, that was wrong.
    And you would still be wrong. She doesn't have a right to kill Ivan. Nobody has the right to murder somebody unprovoked (no, being a fellow victim is not provocation).
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  7. - Top - End - #787
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    And you would still be wrong. She doesn't have a right to kill Ivan. Nobody has the right to murder somebody unprovoked (no, being a fellow victim is not provocation).
    If the clans didn't want Ivan to be murdered, why did they force him to marry someone that didn't want to marry him?
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

  8. - Top - End - #788
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    And murdering Ivan qualifies because, if she is a widow, she can stay in the dwarven lands instead of being forced to run away because the moron wouldn't die.
    I strongly disagree with this.

    Furthermore, you are operating off a big assumption that she would still be allowed to stay in Dwarven lands after literally murdering her husband. You're probably also assuming that she would get away with the murder, which I find highly unlikely.

    But even then, that's all a moot point. We KNOW she didn't have to murder him in order to leave because she explicitly says she left AFTER the failed poisoning attempt. All that is required for her to escape the forced marriage is for her to leave -- Ivan will not stop her. She instead resorts to attempted murder as her FIRST option. This is morally wrong.

  9. - Top - End - #789
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    If the clans didn't want Ivan to be murdered, why did they force him to marry someone that didn't want to marry him?
    You're changing the subject. Let us assume, for this question, that the clans are literal devils from the Nine Hells.

    That changes nothing about the morality of Hilgya murdering Ivan.

  10. - Top - End - #790
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    You're changing the subject. Let us assume, for this question, that the clans are literal devils from the Nine Hells.

    That changes nothing about the morality of Hilgya murdering Ivan.
    Would Hilgya randomly attempt murder Ivan if they were to meet by chance? Not likely. Her attempt arised as a result of the clans forcing her to marry him.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

  11. - Top - End - #791
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    You think you're defending her, but you know? You really aren't, any more than the "she's opposing her culture and she's bad so she did it for a bad reason" people are. You're robbing her of agency and reducing her to an automaton, a puppet that jumps (and puts poison in someone's food) when its strings are pulled.

    Her attempt to murder Ivan took place for a number of reasons, but first and foremost, because she chose to attempt to murder Ivan.

  12. - Top - End - #792
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    If the clans didn't want Ivan to be murdered, why did they force him to marry someone that didn't want to marry him?
    I feel like you're trolling at this point. Even if you're not, I find it best to bow out of this conversation because I find your view on this matter--real or trollish--to be deplorable.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    I think a better question would be Why this newest iteration, sweet merciful gods?
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I think a better question would be Why this newest iteration, sweet merciful gods?
    I will propose a hypothesis: some readers are getting itchy for the next strip and in lieu of a new strip to talk about, are choosing to talk about previous strips.
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  15. - Top - End - #795
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I will propose a hypothesis: some readers are getting itchy for the next strip and in lieu of a new strip to talk about, are choosing to talk about previous strips.
    Either that or hroşila is in Limbo*, we may never know.

    *you know what you did.
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  16. - Top - End - #796
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    If the clans didn't want Ivan to be murdered, why did they force him to marry someone that didn't want to marry him?
    the most obvious answer being, They Didn't think Hilgya would try murdering him?
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    I myself am cis-male, but as the attempted murder stuff was pre-Cerebus, I'm inclined to take it with a grain of salt and judge Hilgya based on her actions now. She's clearly Chaotic, but I have insufficient evidence to definitively state the other part of her alignment at this time.

    And even if she was capital-E Evil back then, people can change their outlook/priorities, especially after life-altering events (like childbirth.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  18. - Top - End - #798
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I myself am cis-male, but as the attempted murder stuff was pre-Cerebus, I'm inclined to take it with a grain of salt and judge Hilgya based on her actions now. She's clearly Chaotic, but I have insufficient evidence to definitively state the other part of her alignment at this time.

    And even if she was capital-E Evil back then, people can change their outlook/priorities, especially after life-altering events (like childbirth.)
    I mean, she apparently spend the last year+ of her life attempting to track Durkon down for the crime of being seduced by her so she could kill him, so I'm inclined to say she's still evil.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  19. - Top - End - #799
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I mean, she apparently spend the last year+ of her life attempting to track Durkon down for the crime of being seduced by her so she could kill him, so I'm inclined to say she's still evil.
    I believe his murder-worthy "crime" was refusing to stay seduced, but same difference, really. Like the "crime" of offering foot massages (and taking no for an answer), murder in response to it doesn't really fit the "neutral" position in the moral alignment.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-03-07 at 02:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Either that or hroşila is in Limbo*, we may never know.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I believe his murder-worthy "crime" was refusing to stay seduced, but same difference, really. Like the "crime" of offering foot massages (and taking no for an answer), murder in response to it doesn't really fit the "neutral" position in the moral alignment.

    GW
    Is it possible we're being too literal with Hilgya? Are we sure there wasn't some missing context with the story about Ivan?

    If the action was evil surely Durkon would have commented on it?

    Killing a mook in a dungeon to achieve a party objective at the direction of your party leader surely isn't evil.

    Finally, are we sure she would want to murder Durkon were he alive? Maybe it's more of a figure of speech that in her mind would lead to a reconciliation?

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sm3gl View Post
    Is it possible we're being too literal with Hilgya? Are we sure there wasn't some missing context with the story about Ivan?

    If the action was evil surely Durkon would have commented on it?

    Killing a mook in a dungeon to achieve a party objective at the direction of your party leader surely isn't evil.

    Finally, are we sure she would want to murder Durkon were he alive? Maybe it's more of a figure of speech that in her mind would lead to a reconciliation?
    Durkon was only privy to Hilgya's words; the "additional context" to them was provided by the flashback panels, to which only the audience was privy.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sm3gl View Post
    Killing a mook in a dungeon to achieve a party objective at the direction of your party leader surely isn't evil.
    Hardly the same situation. A more appropriate parallel would be to kill a non-threatening dungeon dweller not because it's in the way of the objective but because it offered you a service you didn't want, and yeah, that's pretty Evil. It is in fact Belkar's modus operandi to kill anyone in his way, or that at some unspecified point in the future might conceivably be in his way, and I don't see Hilgya objecting to such philosophy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sm3gl View Post
    Killing a mook in a dungeon to achieve a party objective at the direction of your party leader surely isn't evil.
    Holy what? That...may be the most extreme Lawful Evil perspective I've ever heard. "Yes, she killed a defenseless and good-aligned noncombatant as part of a vicious, egomaniacal serial killer's plan to increase his power, but it was a party objective and her victim was a mook!"

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Holy what? That...may be the most extreme Lawful Evil perspective I've ever heard. "Yes, she killed a defenseless and good-aligned noncombatant as part of a vicious, egomaniacal serial killer's plan to increase his power, but it was a party objective and her victim was a mook!"
    It's more common than you think.
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    the most obvious answer being, They Didn't think Hilgya would try murdering him?
    Why wouldn't they?

    1- She has a right not to be married to Ivan.
    2- She has a right to stay in her homeland if she so wishes.
    3- If they married her off at crossbow point, divorce is very likely not an option. The same goes for staying in her homelands once she left - as, I need to reiterate, was her right.
    4- Thus, the most expedient way to ensure the rights alluded in 1 and 2 are respected is for her to become a widow.
    5- And the most expedient way for Hilgya to become a widow is by her own actions.

    And you're telling me NO ONE in that big clan could foresee that the woman they basically gave away would decide to do something about rights 1 and 2, rights that she, undoubtedly, indeed, has?

    They marry her off at crossbow point and don't think that she might take any and all measures to reclaim her aforementioned rights (as, indeed, she should)?

    Well, that lack of forethought is their responsibility, now, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I believe his murder-worthy "crime" was refusing to stay seduced, but same difference, really. Like the "crime" of offering foot massages (and taking no for an answer), murder in response to it doesn't really fit the "neutral" position in the moral alignment.

    GW
    He knocked her up, she tried to contact him and failed, she likely assumed he was a deadbeat dad (all the more grating after the idiotic "doing your duty" speech, spoken by the Lawful Good guy that thought Ivan was a horrible person and wanted her to go back to him anyways). She may have been wrong on that count and being a deadbeat dad may not warrant murder, but absolutely nothing in the strip indicates Hilgya to operate, per your description, essentially like a rapist.

    Y'know, like the usual husband in a forced marriage would. Ivan is an exception, not a rule, after all, and the clans more than likely couldn't care less.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2018-03-07 at 05:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Why wouldn't they?
    Because only crazy people think murder is a good first resort.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Because only crazy people think murder is a good first resort.
    Okay: if you wanted to stay in your homeland and get away from that marriage - divorce or leaving isn't a solution while staying in your homeland, remember - how would you go about doing that?

    You have a right to 1 and 2. You wish to have 1 and 2, as is your right. How would you, in her place, attain those?
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2018-03-07 at 05:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Okay: if you wanted to stay in your homeland and get away from that marriage - divorce or leaving isn't a solution while staying in your homeland, remember - how would you go about doing that?

    You have a right to 1 and 2. You wish to have 1 and 2, as is your right. How would you, in her place, attain those?
    Talk to Ivan.
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    Default Re: What do female readers think of Hilgya Firehelm?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Talk to Ivan.
    Divorce likely wasn't an option for him either. To be sure, if he weren't happy about it, he'd have the exact same right as Hilgya in this context - and the clans would be just as culpable were some horrid fate to befall her. He just happened to be the kind of guy that's happy about anything shiny.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2018-03-07 at 05:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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