The Dark One ... exists, right?

[Fish]

We've seen Thor, Odin, Hel, Loki, and numerous other gods in the comic. They've been represented in actual stickverse art, not the Unreliable Crayons of Time art.

Have we ever seen the Dark One represented in actual stickverse art?

Start of Darkness:

Spoiler

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Redcloak puts on the Crimson Mantle, floats up into the air, and is imbued with power and knowledge, but the Dark One is not seen. A voice says "learn," and Redcloak calls the voice the Dark One (stickverse art).

Redcloak tells a story of how the Dark One was a purple-skinned goblinoid warrior who fought for the cause of the goblins; he then became a god and created the Crimson Mantle (crayon art).

704: Jirix claims to have seen him in the afterlife and passes along a message to Redcloak (crayon art).

1038: Redcloak doesn't talk to the Dark One, but has a "nonverbal spiritual link."

1039: Redcloak says he gets no feedback from The Dark One except that "he's still satisfied enough" to grant spells.

...we're sure he's real, right? Is it possible the Crimson Mantle is just a cloak with no divinity, just a cause? Could it be an artifact created by mortals?

Don't get me wrong: in the balance of probability, it is more likely that the Dark One does exist than does not. Still, what if there isn't one? What if there never was one? What if there used to be one, but he's gone now?

[Jasdoif]

No, we haven't. Jirix having a message from the Dark One in 704, like you mentioned, is the strongest evidence we have that the Dark One exists outside the minds of the Bearers of the Crimson Mantle. (I would say Redcloak's mind, but the Dark One existing in bugbear culture is probably not due to Redcloak himself)

Have we ever seen the Dark One represented in actual stickverse art?

The picture of him in Redcloak's study in 828 is as close as we get.

[Keltest]

Well, I struggle to believe that the goblin priests could be praying to and receiving spells from a nonexistent entity, but I suppose its not entirely impossible.

[Mad Humanist]

Well, I struggle to believe that the goblin priests could be praying to and receiving spells from a nonexistent entity, but I suppose its not entirely impossible.

The creed of stone was managing it but that did not end well.

[hroþila]

I think the unreliability of the crayon panels is sometimes blown out of proportion. It's not code for "wink wink this ain't real", it's merely a shorthand for a second-hand narration that's particularly cool, or which coincides with a time when the Giant felt like drawing with crayons to spice things up. They're no more or less likely to be true than a picture-less statement by any character delivering exposition.

[Fyraltari]

The creed of stone was managing it but that did not end well.

They do get their powers from things that exist though:

Non-theistic clerics get their spells from a wide distributed network of beings with similar philosophies who can act as catalysts for the cleric—but because these are not centralized, none of them can exercise "veto power" over the cleric, nor is the cleric required to acknowledge their dominance (or even their existence). In Gontor's case, it may be that a powerful Earth Elemental is granting him his spells, but it could be a different one each day, or even some spells from one and some from another. If any of those elementals decide they don't like what he's doing with his magic, he just gets his spells from someone else that day. He may even be entirely oblivious to which elemental provides his spells at any point, and therefore is under no obligation to any of them. Unfortunately, that also means that no single elemental is going to be invested enough in Gontor to care what happens to him.

Analogy time! Regular clerics have an employer-employee relationship, where the employer (god) consumes the work (prayer) that the employee (cleric) generates and in return provides them with compensation (spells), where that compensation is actually generated by the work being done by the entire company (church). A non-theistic cleric is more like a freelance writer; they perform the work (believe in a philosophy) that they feel is right for them, and then sell that work to whatever client (quasi-deific elemental beings) is willing to pay (provide spells) for it. The freelancer has more flexibility than the employee to do as they wish, but they also do not have many benefits of steady employment.

I guess the general belief of the goblinoids in the Dark One could mean that the energy is naturally harnessed and distributed to anyone capable of using it without requiringa sentient being to oversee it, but I really don't think that's the case.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

[Fish]

...but I really don't think that's the case.

I agree. It seems a very unlikely thing for Rich to do, requiring some depth of D&D knowledge on the part of the readers, to whisk away the carpet and say, "Guess what? The goblins don't actually have a god, but due to this technical rule, it all works out."

On one hand: only the people who have technical knowledge of D&D would require that explanation ... but they are also the very people most likely to have the answer as well.

And on the other hand: Rich has twice pointed out that you can be a cleric without a god, so it's remotely possible he's laying the groundwork for that.

It is still, in my opinion, not very likely.

On a similar note: what in-comic evidence do we have that the crayon scribbles are unreliable?

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

And what was this in aid of?

Perhaps it's a question that gets asked fairly frequently; I wouldn't know. I don't make a regular habit of reading the forums. Apologies if the question isn't to your liking.

[Fyraltari]

On a similar note: what in-comic evidence do we have that the crayon scribbles are unreliable?

We know that the Crayons of Time are not the full story and we still don't know how the Scribble found out about all this. Crayons indicate second-hand storytelling and therefore are only as reliable as their narrator. Mind you, the only time I think the narrator lied (be it just by omission) is Thirden's account of Tenrin's demise.

And what was this in aid of?

It's a warhammer joke.

Perhaps it's a question that gets asked fairly frequently; I wouldn't know. I don't make a regular habit of reading the forums. Apologies if the question isn't to your liking.

No one should ever apologize for not knowing something,it simply is inevitable.

[Jasdoif]

I think the unreliability of the crayon panels is sometimes blown out of proportion. It's not code for "wink wink this ain't real", it's merely a shorthand for a second-hand narration that's particularly cool, or which coincides with a time when the Giant felt like drawing with crayons to spice things up. They're no more or less likely to be true than a picture-less statement by any character delivering exposition.

Well, no more or less likely to be true than any other retelling of a retelling would be. (Jirix's case is admittedly a little unusual, since theoretically his should be a first-hand account.)

But yes, there's a big difference between not assuming it's true, and assuming it's not true. And for that matter, that part of one being false would mean the entirety of all of them would have to be false.


So. Is any of this going to be true? Yes. Probably a lot of it. You're adopted.

[Draconi Redfir]

And what was this in aid of?

It's a warhammer joke.

From what i know, it's the battle cry of the Orks, green-skinned fungus-men from space who despite having little to no technological prowess are able to make advanced weaponry and technology on belief alone. They could literally take a sheet of lead, a TV, a blender, and a cell phone, duct-tape them all together without so much as taking them apart to connect their wires, and if it's the general shape of a gun, and they believe it's a gun, then it works exactly like a gun. Even when it has absolutely no possible way of being a gun at all.

[RatElemental]

Am I the only one getting WH40k Ork vibes from the idea that the Dark One may just be a collective belief that all goblinoids share?

[Fyraltari]

From what i know, it's the battle cry of the Orks, green-skinned fungus-men from space who despite having little to no technological prowess are able to make advanced weaponry and technology on belief alone. They could literally take a sheet of lead, a TV, a blender, and a cell phone, duct-tape them all together without so much as taking them apart to connect their wires, and if it's the general shape of a gun, and they believe it's a gun, then it works exactly like a gun. Even when it has absolutely no possible way of being a gun at all.

Though the harder physics have to be defied the more Orks/Orcs you need to believe it works. More to the point that belief (also called WAAGH energy) allows some of them to ape the magic used by the other races despite having a different but somewhat related. Kinda like what the Goblin religion would be if the Dark One turned out not to exist at all. And Jirix hallucinated I guess?

[Fish]

And Jirix halucinated I guess?

Or he lied. But we already have good reason (Miko) to think that someone could be sufficiently motivated (Miko) to believe gods are speaking to them (Miko) to justify the justify the things they were going to do anyway (big-time Miko).

Quite apart from the idea that the Dark One doesn't exist is the question of whether he continues to exist (ie, is it possible that he existed at some point in the past, but exists no longer). If the Dark One was destroyed at some point after imbuing the Crimson Mantle with power, who would notice? Is Redcloak sufficiently dedicated to his cause that he wouldn't be aware that the Dark One was no longer the being answering his prayers and providing him with spells?

[Fincher]

Wouldn't the goblinoids believing in and worshipping the Dark One cause him to exist, in the same vein as Banjo?

[Keltest]

Wouldn't the goblinoids believing in and worshipping the Dark One cause him to exist, in the same vein as Banjo?

Not exactly. Banjo was empowered by Elan's worship, but that worship didn't cause him to suddenly spring into being. We know TDO rose to divinity that way, but I don't think theres any indication that it would resurrect him if he were, say, eaten by the Snarl. Now, SOMETHING might be able to assume the mantle of the Dark One and take that power, but theres no guarantee that they would be the same entity.

[Emanick]

Or he lied. But we already have good reason (Miko) to think that someone could be sufficiently motivated (Miko) to believe gods are speaking to them (Miko) to justify the justify the things they were going to do anyway (big-time Miko).

True. Still, Miko was a special case in that she was depicted as not being very in touch with reality, particularly in her later appearances. Jirix has been depicted as a pretty down-to-earth straight man (albeit with a slight fondness for "cornball jokes"), so it would be a lot more surprising (and probably bad writing, IMO) if he was suddenly revealed to have been hallucinating The Dark One's speech to him.

Plus, even Miko thought the gods were speaking to her through signs. Jirix claimed that The Dark One literally spoke to him face-to-face. That's a bit different.

[goodpeople25]

Plus, even Miko thought the gods were speaking to her through signs. Jirix claimed that The Dark One literally spoke to him face-to-face. That's a bit different.

Yeah it is, though that is an interesting mental image of Miko delivering "messages" from the Gods to Roy or whoever like Jirix did for Redcloak. (Not sure if it would be better if they were Miko style comments or if they were closer to Jirix's message)

[Reboot]

Well, no more or less likely to be true than any other retelling of a retelling would be. (Jirix's case is admittedly a little unusual, since theoretically his should be a first-hand account.)

Well, on the face of it, his account of his resurrection was...odd. He blacked out and woke up with a positive hit point total looking at Redcloak. But isn't the spell itself meant to require him to actively say "yes" to the resurrection (cf, Roy getting in the taxi), rather than just fade out of death and wake up in life? [Otherwise, I suppose what the Dark One tells him may qualify for the "name, alignment and deity" thing; even if they're meant to be directly aware rather than just informed.]

If it was just him simplifying for the sake of a better story (and the "Don't screw this up" thing means that's quite possible), then it's an unreliable narration even if the broad thrust is accurate - hence the crayons, ja?

[Jasdoif]

Well, on the face of it, his account of his resurrection was...odd. He blacked out and woke up with a positive hit point total looking at Redcloak. But isn't the spell itself meant to require him to actively say "yes" to the resurrection (cf, Roy getting in the taxi), rather than just fade out of death and wake up in life? [Otherwise, I suppose what the Dark One tells him may qualify for the "name, alignment and deity" thing; even if they're meant to be directly aware rather than just informed.]

If it was just him simplifying for the sake of a better story (and the "Don't screw this up" thing means that's quite possible), then it's an unreliable narration even if the broad thrust is accurate - hence the crayons, ja?

It's unclear. I mean....

• in Start of Darkness, Redcloak's talking about events that he wasn't around to witness.
• in the Scribbles of Time, Shojo is talking about events predating the entire World he was born in.
• in 704, Jirix is talking about events he witnessed in the afterlife.
• in 991, Thirden is talking about events involving Sigdi and Tenrin, the former of whom he wasn't friends with at the time and the latter of whom he couldn't even describe firsthand.

It's a small sample size, but Jirix's account is the only that's clearly firsthand. It could be an "unreliable narrator" thing...but then we're at Jirix lying to Redcloak about it being true (in the same strip, 704); and again, it's a firsthand account, there's no one else to be...unreliant?

Ultimately...I dunno.

[Metahuman1]

Woudn't it be a twist if The Dark One turned out to just be a projection of the Scribble and it's using that to try and engineer getting free?

[Mad Humanist]

Woudn't it be a twist if The Dark One turned out to just be a projection of the Scribble and it's using that to try and engineer getting free?

You mean like the Snarl is a projection of the arguments amongst the pantheons? But the Dark One is much older than the Order of Scribble (or specifically Kraagor who I presume you are referring to).

[GloatingSwine]

From what i know, it's the battle cry of the Orks, green-skinned fungus-men from space who despite having little to no technological prowess are able to make advanced weaponry and technology on belief alone. They could literally take a sheet of lead, a TV, a blender, and a cell phone, duct-tape them all together without so much as taking them apart to connect their wires, and if it's the general shape of a gun, and they believe it's a gun, then it works exactly like a gun. Even when it has absolutely no possible way of being a gun at all.

Orky tech isn't quite that magic.

If you give an Ork a pipe that goes bang and something comes out of it and tell him it's a gun, then it will work like one no matter the principles involved. (Which in the case of Orks means that he will wave it in the air and make it go bang whilst he runs up to things to give 'em a propa crumpin' wiv a choppa, if something comes out of the end and hits something else that's a bonus. If it hits an enemy that's a miracle.)

But if it doesn't already go bang on its own then no Ork will ever credit it as a proper gun in the first place.

[georgie_leech]

You mean like the Snarl is a projection of the arguments amongst the pantheons? But the Dark One is much older than the Order of Scribble (or specifically Kraagor who I presume you are referring to).

I think they might have meant "Projection of the Snarl."

[b_jonas]

704: Jirix claims to have seen him in the afterlife and passes along a message to Redcloak (crayon art).

1038: Redcloak doesn't talk to the Dark One, but has a "nonverbal spiritual link."

1039: Redcloak says he gets no feedback from The Dark One except that "he's still satisfied enough" to grant spells.

Maybe the gods can't talk to the living directly, but they can talk to the dead, such as Jirix and Greg?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe the gods can't talk to the living directly, but they can talk to the dead, such as Jirix and Greg?

I think they can, but cannot be bothered. It is easy for the DO to talk to a soul already in his domain, one he knows will carry the message back. It is a lot more of a bother to move to the material plane for a chat.

We do know that Durkon and Thor had a talk about spell selection, so it is established that gods can talk to their worshipers - but AFAWCS, only for the intended purpose of the prayer, which is to refresh spell slots.

GW

[oonker]

Just a quick point: Shojo specifically mentions that "elves and goblins raised their own deities"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

Would that aid as proof for the existence of the Dark One?

[Chronos]

Hel routinely talks directly with not-Durkon, and though he's in a sense dead, it's not the same sense that Jirix was. And Loki just communicated something to Hilgya that seems like it'd be tough to say through Miko-esque vague signs, and Odin told his high priest the prophecy about Durkon. Direct communication between gods and their worshipers seems almost routine in this world, and happens as often as the god in question feels like making it happen. And yet, we have the high priest of a god, who might well be the literal most powerful cleric in the world, and who's intimately involved in that god's greatest and most important plan, who's never once had a direct talk with his god. That certainly does seem at least somewhat odd.

[RatElemental]

Hel routinely talks directly with not-Durkon, and though he's in a sense dead, it's not the same sense that Jirix was. And Loki just communicated something to Hilgya that seems like it'd be tough to say through Miko-esque vague signs, and Odin told his high priest the prophecy about Durkon. Direct communication between gods and their worshipers seems almost routine in this world, and happens as often as the god in question feels like making it happen. And yet, we have the high priest of a god, who might well be the literal most powerful cleric in the world, and who's intimately involved in that god's greatest and most important plan, who's never once had a direct talk with his god. That certainly does seem at least somewhat odd.

Undurkon isn't dead, Durkon is. Undurkon is undead. That does raise a pretty good point, though. It seems at the very least gods are allowed to communicate with their high priests, or high priests are somehow able to commune with their god, and we know Redcloak is the dark one's high priest. He has said he can ask for limited advice, though. Maybe it can only be initiated on the priest's side and Redcloak doesn't care enough to do so?

[ti'esar]

I'm not sure where anyone's getting the idea that Redcloak never talks to the Dark One from. He's merely correcting Oona about how praying for new spells works.

[Keltest]

I'm not sure where anyone's getting the idea that Redcloak never talks to the Dark One from. He's merely correcting Oona about how praying for new spells works.

The fact that the Dark One needed to send a message through Jirix rather than doing so directly suggests, at the least, that there are limits to his ability to directly communicate with Redcloak.