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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Even at the time, there was a hint that the Spinosaurus does not belong:

    "I don't remember seeing that on InGen's list."
    "That's because it wasn't on their list. Which makes me wonder what else they've been up to."
    You know, Jurassic World was in development for a long time and we've got two movies in a row that explicitly state that the Park's dinos aren't "real" dinos.

    The franchise might just be moving away from "pure" dino to just "genetically engineered monsters" in general.

    Like, half the things in the Indominus weren't even dinosaurs.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    ...

    ...

    ...

    ...

    ...Well I'm excited for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk Mecha View Post
    Hmm, dinosaurs and explosions. Honestly, I don't mind fun dumb b-grade schlock. So, yeah, I'm in!
    Seconded. Petty escapism is fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    There's a difference between "the lay palentologist knows you fracked it up" accuracy and "you have clearly never picked up a dinosaur book in your life and small children know you're that freaking wrong" accuracy.

    They made at least an attempt at accuracy in the first movie.

    Raptors has feathers, that's just not open to debate anymore (no how much it might outright offend some people's nostalgia - and it surely will, be there is no depth to the levels humanity will sink to, there's going to be people out there offended), just like Iguanadon is not rhinoceras-shaped and Tyrannosaurs doesn't have an upright stance. We simply know better. Featherless raptors are now just flat-out wrong and out-dated; as wrong as sauropods living in deep lakes or having crocodile-like leg stances (yes, that was a real thing that at least one set of reconstructors believed, based solely on "dinosaurs were reptiles, so they must have lizard legs"), the sun orbiting round the Earth and diseases being caused by humors in the body; it's objectively, factually (and very obviously, in this case) wrong.

    (I mean, Velociraptor is literally on the list of "dinosaurs we've found that have feathers," so there isn't even the highly dubious wiggle room of "well, maybe all the other members of it's family did, but maybe this one didn't...")



    Hell, we now know enough that you could now be actually wrong in what colour Archeopteryx was[sub]1[/sup], since now we have a pretty good idea what colour its feathers were.





    And I might have some sympathy with people if they said "we're making stuff up" like the Weta Workshop did in with Wetasaurus, because at least they were upfront about it. (I might even have given Jurassic World some leeway on the made-up antogonist telepathci doofer, had they not got so much else so obviously wrong (like Pteranodons being able - or even WANTING - to carry off humans to eat).

    As I often say, I don't expect you to be always right, do I damn well DO expect you to show me you gave enough of an [expletive] to have freaking THOUGHT about it and done some basic research.



    [sub]1[/sup]Within a reasonable margin of error; we know enough to be able to rule out "it could be any colour", at any rate. (Black, and/or a pattern dark-and-pale - which, while not enough to give a certain answer, is a hell of a ballpark smaller than "it could be anything.")
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Crichton
    Let's go to the second point, inaccuracy and made-up plot devices. Scientists from Leo Szilard to Isaac Asimov to Carl Sagan have all written fiction and all have unhesitatingly used inaccurate and gratuitous plot devices. There must be a reason. Carl invented a message, he invented a machine, and he invented an extraterrestrial life. None of this could be called accurate in any reasonable sense of the word. It's fantasy. Asimov is best known for his I, Robot series. No accuracy there.

    In a story like Jurassic Park, to complaint of inaccuracy is downright weird. Nobody can make a dinosaur. Therefore the story is a fantasy. How can accuracy have any meaning in a fantasy? It's like the reporters who asked me if I had visited genetic engineering firms while doing my research. Why would I? They don't know how to make a dinosaur.

    But on another level of texture and detail, accuracy is always at risk, because it is never the most important value. Jack Horner, the paleontologist who served as the film's advisor, was dissatisfied with the portrayal of a dinosaur dig, where people are exposing bones. He'd gone to a lot of trouble to plan a real sequence for Steven, instead of the unrealistic one that was shot. I said, "Would your sequence take the same amount of time?" No, he said, it would take a little longer. Maybe another minute. "Well," I said, "there's your answer." Because a minute is a very long time in a movie. And the dinosaur dig isn't a plot point, it's only meant to establish a milieu for the characters. Verisimilitude in a narrative is more important than veracity.
    Not saying I agree with that sentiment, but there's an answer from the original author.

    ETA: I found that quote while looking for a different one on how Crichton claimed he typically did little to no research. Couldn't find it (don't even know if I'm remembering it right), but that seemed good enough for your issue.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2017-12-09 at 04:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    Why would an action movie try to be a realistic portrayal of [history] as opposed to a dramatic/exciting one?

    Why would an action movie try to be a realistic portrayal of [a culture] as opposed to a dramatic/exciting one?

    Why?

    Because it is wrong.

    It promotes and perpetuates inaccuracies, misconceptions and ignorance and denegrates the source subjects and there is NEVER an excuse for it. There is enough idiocy and stupidity in the world and media - ALL MEDIA - has a responsibility not to increase it. One that it continually shirks (like every other bloody responsibility anyone or anything has these days.)

    "Because it is cool" is NOT an excuse or a defence.

    Hell, in this day and age, if you can't spare five minutes to look something up on wikipedia or something on ANY subject for some form of media you are producing, you shouldn't be making media PERIOD.



    Yes, this all does annoy the FRACK out of me personally, and, as I have often said, it did so since I first started school over thirty years ago, and never going to NOT annoy me until people STOP DOING IT.
    You know, I was going to say that you were being ridiculous and overly melodramatic, but then I realized I feel the exact same way whenever I watch TV and hear someone who should know better say "begs the question" when they mean "raises the question".

    At this point I feel it is a lost cause though, its only a matter of time before they just redefine it like they did "literally".
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    It doesn't look fun.

    There's more than a minute of tedious volcano fleeing...which I can only guess is some attempt to be bleaker than what came before? What's the appeal here? Aren't turn your brain off generic style disaster/creature features supposed to have some sense of play to them? I'm not seeing it.

    I'm just uninterested in whether anything in this island lives or dies. And I cried when I saw The Land Before Time on television as a 5 year old.

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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    Why, why, WHY would you build a multi-billion-dollar theme park on an active frackin' volcano?

    Geologists can actually tell if something is a volcano. They're really good at that. They even make maps so other people will know.
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    They governments of the world could have decided to end the Dinosaur problem and set bombs off inside a volcanic vent. There is nothing in the trailer - that I saw - that would lead me to believe this is a natural occurrence. It feels like per-meditated euthanasia with a dramatic, Hollywood twist.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Legato Endless View Post
    It doesn't look fun.

    There's more than a minute of tedious volcano fleeing...which I can only guess is some attempt to be bleaker than what came before? What's the appeal here? Aren't turn your brain off generic style disaster/creature features supposed to have some sense of play to them? I'm not seeing it.

    I'm just uninterested in whether anything in this island lives or dies. And I cried when I saw The Land Before Time on television as a 5 year old.
    Well, it doesn`t look fun. You right. Trailer shows that the new story will be simple as pie. Looks like: "If you like dinosaurs... shut up and enjoy the juicy graphics..."

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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    I never understand why people say that feathered dinosaurs wouldn't be intimidating. People are frequently intimidated by geese, which are small, toothless, have tiny little claws, and look like a golf club sticking out of a football with some flippers attached to the bottom. This is not an inherently scary sort of animal, certainly not to an adult human, but damn if a goose guarding her (or his) goslings can't freak a person out.

    Now make that the better part of human-sized, give it claws, serious teeth, a much more agile build for moving on land, and a genuine appetite for red meat. That's plenty intimidating to be getting on with.
    I used to be a big dinosaur buff when I was younger, but I'm pretty out of touch with the research these days. Do we have direct evidence that, say, Carnotaurus or Stegasaurs were feathered?

    I'm fine with smaller dinosaurs being feathered, and I can see it for larger specimens up north (a la woolly mammoths) but I think one can raise some legitimate questions about extremely large animals like the T-Rex or Brachiosaurs needing to retain heat in tropical climates. That's a pretty large chunk of the casting in JP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    To be honest what I want at this point is to make a movie with different animals in it.

    Permian Park would be plenty horrifying and be different, or Ordovocian Aquarium. The key concept of horror movie using extinct animals is fine, but they need to switch the animal and concentrate on the horror.
    Anomalocaris was the stuff of nightmares, but not actually very big by human standards.

    Some of those boney-jawed fish would be cool, I guess, but where do you get a DNA sample?
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    I used to be a big dinosaur buff when I was younger, but I'm pretty out of touch with the research these days. Do we have direct evidence that, say, Carnotaurus or Stegasaurs were feathered?

    I'm fine with smaller dinosaurs being feathered, and I can see it for larger specimens up north (a la woolly mammoths) but I think one can raise some legitimate questions about extremely large animals like the T-Rex or Brachiosaurs needing to retain heat in tropical climates. That's a pretty large chunk of the casting in JP.
    There's fairly reasonable theories from skin imprints and stuff that a fair amount of larger theropods might have been born with some protective down, and progressively lose it while growing. Small dinosaur babies need the temperature keeping a lot more than gigantic masses of muscle, after all.

    So old T-Rex dad would probably not have feathers beyond maybe a crest to look better to potential mates, but T-rex younglings may very well have looked like murder chicks .

    We have no signs that I'm aware of pointing to any large feathered sauropod. They're rather entirely different evolutionary families.
    Last edited by Drascin; 2017-12-16 at 04:43 AM.

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    There's hints of feathers in ornithischians though - which split very early in dinosaur evolution from saurischians.

    There's even the possibility that feather-prototypes evolved prior to the dinosaur/pterosaur split:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaur

    I would suggest that the spines on animals like Diplodocus:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplodocus

    might actually be quills. (The species confirmed as having spines appears to now be considered a new genus, Kaatedocus).
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-12-16 at 04:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    There's hints of feathers in ornithischians though - which split very early in dinosaur evolution from saurischians.

    There's even the possibility that feather-prototypes evolved prior to the dinosaur/pterosaur split:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaur

    I would suggest that the spines on animals like Diplodocus:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplodocus

    might actually be quills. (The species confirmed as having spines appears to now be considered a new genus, Kaatedocus).
    I think, for big dinosaurs, a good counterpart would be elephants or hippos. They have hair - just sparse hair, so they look almost bare. Dinosaur feathers might be the same way.

    Deinocheirus (a giant ornithomimosaur the size of T. rex) had feather attachments visible on its tail bones - so size may not be a problem when it comes to having at least some feathers.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I think, for big dinosaurs, a good counterpart would be elephants or hippos. They have hair - just sparse hair, so they look almost bare. Dinosaur feathers might be the same way.

    Deinocheirus (a giant ornithomimosaur the size of T. rex) had feather attachments visible on its tail bones - so size may not be a problem when it comes to having at least some feathers.
    It almost certainly was temperature dependent. Some lived in places with cold snowt winters, including many T-Rex. Like mammoths to elephants the amount of temperature control needed was contextual.

    For this reason using modern Megafauna is a bad example. We ate the majority of megafauna outside of Africa, but those were often larger and had more hair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    It almost certainly was temperature dependent. Some lived in places with cold snowt winters, including many T-Rex. Like mammoths to elephants the amount of temperature control needed was contextual.

    For this reason using modern Megafauna is a bad example. We ate the majority of megafauna outside of Africa, but those were often larger and had more hair.
    Actually - it might be a good example, as a reason why it might make sense for at least some big dinosaurs, to have feathers, and some not to.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Regarding velociraptors and continuity:

    They could easily solved the issue by:
    1) Making some real velociraptors, and putting them in the petting zoo
    2) Also making some more of the original raptors, because everyone likes raptors.

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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    1) Making some real velociraptors, and putting them in the petting zoo
    Putting ferocious carnivorous turkeys in the petting zoo sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

    And again, the skeleton that Dr. Grant was digging up at the beginning of the first movie, the one that's about the size of the raptors in the park, is explicitly stated to be a velociraptor mongolious.

    Conclusion, in-universe, velociraptor mongolious did, in fact, look like that.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2018-01-02 at 05:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Regarding velociraptors and continuity:

    They could easily solved the issue by:
    1) Making some real velociraptors, and putting them in the petting zoo
    They've never made any real dinosaurs, though. They can't. They don't have enough dino DNA, so they always have to alter it in order to make the creatures, so they will never have a "real" velociraptor. The original book even subtly foreshadows this with Hammond's travelling elephant the size of a house cat, which was pygmy elephant with dwarfism but was shown as a triumph of genetic engineering in order to get investors to cough up more money. Also, the flea circus story that's in both the novel and the first movie corroborate this; Hammond shows people not what is, but what they want to see. Hammond is, at his heart, a huckster. Even with him being gone, the core of Jurassic Park is the same, and they double down on this when they make the Indominous Rex. It is no less a creation of theirs than the rest of the dinosaurs they make, they're just no longer advertising it as such.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    There's a persistent theory based on the half-life of blood molecules being nowhere near hundreds of millions of years that there is no actual dinosaur DNA in the creations and they're just experimenting with the genes of extant avians, reptiles, and amphibions to create reasonable facimiles of the dinosaurs.

    I mean, it's not canon, but it would explain a lot.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Serious question, why do they keep putting people in these? Does anybody care about them? Wouldn't this be much better at this point if it was just dinosaurs running around doing dinosaur stuff? 'Cause if you showed me a preview for a movie called "Two Hours of T-Rex" I'd be there opening night.
    This was my major issue with the first Transformer movie. I kept thinking "Why are we spending time with these boring humans, when we can have giant robots fighting each other."

    Jurassic World was an entertaining watch while folding clothes, which is the baseline for a summer blockbuster I don't bother to leave the house to see.
    Last edited by Joran; 2018-01-02 at 06:14 PM.

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    JW failed because of the humans. A literal 2 hours of dinos screeching and fighting would not have been a good movie - we like to say it would, but it wouldn't. What they needed was likeable, interesting humans with a semi-interesting plot, and failing that the protagonist humans should have all been brutally and bloodily eaten at the end as an apology for their existence.

    This new one doesn't promise to be any better.

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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    This was my major issue with the first Transformer movie. I kept thinking "Why are we spending time with these boring humans, when we can have giant robots fighting each other."

    Jurassic World was an entertaining watch while folding clothes, which is the baseline for a summer blockbuster I don't bother to leave the house to see.
    In Transformers the robots can speak, they can emote, they can engage in all sorts of juvenile-but-recognizably-human Michael Bay antics like having Bumblebee piss on a guy. The are not humans but they are characters. It's the same principle as having animated films with talking animals. There is, in fact, a Dinosaur movie of this nature - Dinosaur made in 2000 by Disney. That was actually a highly successful film and with current technological improvements (see The Jungle Book and the upcoming Lion King remake) I can certainly see Disney going back to that well.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    In Transformers the robots can speak, they can emote, they can engage in all sorts of juvenile-but-recognizably-human Michael Bay antics like having Bumblebee piss on a guy. The are not humans but they are characters. It's the same principle as having animated films with talking animals. There is, in fact, a Dinosaur movie of this nature - Dinosaur made in 2000 by Disney. That was actually a highly successful film and with current technological improvements (see The Jungle Book and the upcoming Lion King remake) I can certainly see Disney going back to that well.
    The dinosaurs are characters Jurassic Park, too. The Realtors are the villains, constantly harassing and threatening the main characters, and the T-Rex turns from villain to hero at the end, when it saves Grant & Co. from the raptors. In the book, the T-Rex is much more if an antagonist, much more similar to a terrifying murderer relentlessly stalking the main characters.

    The movie T-Rex very un-subtly reprises it's "hero" status in JW.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2018-01-03 at 08:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWR View Post
    JW failed because of the humans. A literal 2 hours of dinos screeching and fighting would not have been a good movie - we like to say it would, but it wouldn't.
    Maybe my misanthrope is showing, but two hours of dinos screeching and fighting is preferable to two hours of humans screeching and occasionally fighting. Dinosaurs > Humans.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Putting ferocious carnivorous turkeys in the petting zoo sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
    ...

    I don't see the problem. This is Jurrassic Park, after all.

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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    ...

    I don't see the problem. This is Jurrassic Park, after all.
    The main company has never actually done things like that on purpose.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Maybe my misanthrope is showing, but two hours of dinos screeching and fighting is preferable to two hours of humans screeching and occasionally fighting. Dinosaurs > Humans.
    Possibly, possibly, but that still wouldn't make it a good movie. 'nicer than Stalin' isn't a high bar to clear, after all and 'dinos are better than the humans in JW' is true but doesn't say much about how fun they are to watch doing nothing but fighting and screeching.
    I feel that a movie has to have some characters of interest to move the film along. Nothing but action is still going to get old very quickly, especially if you aren't invested in the outcome to any particular degree.

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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by BWR View Post
    Nothing but action is still going to get old very quickly, especially if you aren't invested in the outcome to any particular degree.
    I disagree.
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    In before someone knows of another movie with remotely as high of an action runtime to total runtime ratio.
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    There's a difference between "the lay palentologist knows you fracked it up" accuracy and "you have clearly never picked up a dinosaur book in your life and small children know you're that freaking wrong" accuracy.
    On the one hand, I was a little disappointed to see that the advances of understanding of dinosaur biology in the intervening 20-25 years hadn't found their way substantively into Jurassic World. But that is also trivially justified because:

    They made at least an attempt at accuracy in the first movie.
    The first movie was - for the most part - close enough by the understanding of its time. I was a massive dinosaur nut and much more pedantic than I am now when it came out, and although I took issue with the naming of the velociraptors and the portrayal of the dilophosaurus, the rest of it was near enough and the dinosaurs sufficiently entertaining and realistic/accurate to suspend the nitpickery for as long as it took to enjoy the film.

    Everything that's going on in-universe is built on that science and those expectations from the first movie. The assumption of the theme park owners is that people want to see dinosaurs that resemble the dinosaurs they're familiar with - and dinosaurs in-universe are now a fact of contemporary life, not limited to fossils and imagination - and so that's what they design.

    And that bit about entertainment suspending the nitpickery? That's also exactly the thing that's going on in-universe too. Jurassic Park is a theme park. Its intention is to impress its visitors with spectacle, not with scientific accuracy. Dr. Wu even spells this out in Jurassic World when he points out to the owner that the point was never to create scientifically accurate dinosaurs and if they had done, many of the dinosaurs would look very different. The point was to entertain the public.

    (And if we know one thing about the public, it's that they won't let even fairly major scientific/historical inaccuracies get in the way of a good time.)

    Similarly the velociraptor thing can be explained away using in-universe justifications. When JP1 was created, they called them velociraptors because they were adhering to a taxonomy that is no longer accepted. They've kept the name even though they know it's not correct because that's what people expect to see. We know from Jurassic World that they're not averse to just making species names up based on what sounds cool.

    There are probably people in the JP universe who sniff at the shoddy excuses for dinosaurs which don't match scientific understanding just as there are people who do so at the films. But the park - like the films - isn't for them.

    You can continue to complain about inaccuracies if you like, and there is merit in doing so. People should know the truth. But that shouldn't get in the way of enjoying the films, because those inaccuracies are all fully justified within its own continuity - without even having to import stuff like "in this universe, up is down, etc." You can hate the films because they're terrible films - which at least two of them are - but dwelling on the point about accuracy of dinosaur portrayal is missing the point hard.

    What I am less forgiving of is any other media property depicting velociraptors in the same way that Jurassic Park does/did. JP got it wrong in the early 90s, but at least they have the excuse of consistency. Everyone else should know better.


    Having said all of that, if I remember rightly, at least some of the raptors in Jurassic Park 3 did have at least some feathers. Which again goes some way to demonstrating that quality of film is in no way related to scientific accuracy of the creatures portrayed.
    Last edited by Aedilred; 2018-01-05 at 02:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Jurassic Park: Fallen Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Legato Endless View Post
    It doesn't look fun.

    There's more than a minute of tedious volcano fleeing...which I can only guess is some attempt to be bleaker than what came before? What's the appeal here? Aren't turn your brain off generic style disaster/creature features supposed to have some sense of play to them? I'm not seeing it.
    The biggest problem I see with this movie? I've seen it. It's one of those trailers where there appear to be no surprises left in store in the movie. Why spend $10 or so to see it when I already have all the relevant points from the trailer....

    Quote Originally Posted by Legato Endless View Post
    I'm just uninterested in whether anything in this island lives or dies. And I cried when I saw The Land Before Time on television as a 5 year old.
    No shame there. I cried when I saw it as a 30 year old (48 now). And I made sure to by it on blu-ray. It's an awesome movie!
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