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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    That's an attitude I simply cannot comprehend actually having.
    it saved my butt. i had a strong b going in my last class (to get my associate's degree) but then i bombed the final. brought my grade down to a c ... my cumulative was a c because i did terrible one semester, for extracurricular reasons. i'd say i'm a B student in computer science - i got an even amount of As, Bs, and Cs except for that one semester where i flunked one class and got Ds in the other ones. but having a bad semester can happen to anyone. for me, it was the start of my schizophrenia, you could say, brought on by a hot milf. not a bad way to start out a mental illness i guess lol.

    edit: i also got a D in speech because my teacher didn't like my completely improvised speeches. the class loved them though!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    That's an attitude I simply cannot comprehend actually having.
    I agree, if your goal is to build a career with your degree. However, I explicitly said otherwise there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I agree, if your goal is to build a career with your degree. However, I explicitly said otherwise there.
    Realistically even then networking is probably more important than grades. Grades are needed for grad school and thats about it. In terms of interviews any number of extracurriculars and/contacts are going to supercede your grades. Plus thats only for your first job. After that no one cares.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Realistically even then networking is probably more important than grades. Grades are needed for grad school and thats about it. In terms of interviews any number of extracurriculars and/contacts are going to supercede your grades. Plus thats only for your first job. After that no one cares.
    Definitely true, I can remember when my mother was telling me about how she was told by a professional resume writer that she should remove the fact that she had a 4.0 resume in college from her resume because nobody cares.

    The main thing is though, that if you can give you get season are going to know how to do your job then he should get better and see if you can get seeds and still learn how to do your job then that's more important. My personal experiences in college have shown me that a lot of times what people learn in college is not connected in any way to what they would do for their actual position. And basically the first year for most companies is teaching people what the hell their actual job is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    Definitely true, I can remember when my mother was telling me about how she was told by a professional resume writer that she should remove the fact that she had a 4.0 resume in college from her resume because nobody cares.
    Counterpoint: There are lots of entry-level computer programming jobs that specifically require a 3.0 or 3.5 to even apply. And, of course, if you want to go on to grad school, GPA is critical.

    Once you get past entry-level though, ya, people don't really care what your GPA was, just that you have a degree.

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    When I was interviewing for my first post-college job, many companies specifically asked what my GPA was, and it was significantly important to them. On the other hand, there were also many that never mentioned GPA, and I never brought it up.

    Once I had a major post-college job to put in my experience list, though, no one cared about GPA any more. The fact that I have a degree in Computer Science from a widely known and respected college mattered some, but what interviewers really asked about was all about my job experience. That, and direct tests of my knowledge and skills, of course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    Counterpoint: There are lots of entry-level computer programming jobs that specifically require a 3.0 or 3.5 to even apply. And, of course, if you want to go on to grad school, GPA is critical.

    Once you get past entry-level though, ya, people don't really care what your GPA was, just that you have a degree.
    True, that's why it's absolutely critical to do your research. Like I said there are jobs where classroom aptitude translates better than others I would not be surprised at all to find out that programming was one of those.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    Counterpoint: There are lots of entry-level computer programming jobs that specifically require a 3.0 or 3.5 to even apply. And, of course, if you want to go on to grad school, GPA is critical.

    Once you get past entry-level though, ya, people don't really care what your GPA was, just that you have a degree.
    oh ****. i knew i wasn't going to grad school, but anyway i guess i still have two years (finishing my bachelor's at probably Penn State) to bring up my gpa. i was bringing it up pretty well, getting As and Bs, until i bombed that final, brought me down 11 whole percentage points.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodkill View Post
    oh ****. i knew i wasn't going to grad school, but anyway i guess i still have two years (finishing my bachelor's at probably Penn State) to bring up my gpa. i was bringing it up pretty well, getting As and Bs, until i bombed that final, brought me down 11 whole percentage points.
    If you are really worried about your post-college career, get an internship. Having something you can talk about beyond the same list of classes that every other entry-level grad has is pretty helpful. And, of course, if you get an internship with an expanding company, they may just hire you as soon as you graduate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aspi View Post
    ... Don't take that lightly and just go to college because it's what everyone is doing.
    True, you go to college because it's the best way you can make sure your family eats.

    Quote Originally Posted by aspi View Post
    The first thing you have to learn (which you likely never learned at school) is how to learn.
    I agree totally.

    Quote Originally Posted by aspi View Post
    Yes, you really, really should not generalize. As someone who is working and teaching in academia, let me assure you that you are being downright offensive by casting all university teachers into this role. While it is true that there are bad professors, most of them are simply jaded by a system that is broken, by overloaded courses, not enough assistants and a continuously decreasing level of prior knowledge in first year students. In my experience, a large part of why professors end up jaded and distant is the number of students with this and similar attitudes that they have to deal with. If everyone treats you like a soulless villain, you're gonna end up being one eventually...
    Yes, I should not generalize. I am sure most teachers love when their students learn. What I was trying to say was in college, teachers are different with different priorities than previous teachers.

    In elementary school, the primary goal for teachers is to teach. Same in high school, unless you go to the rare one where a football coach is hired to make the school a power and the school gives him a class to justify his salary.

    College is different, "broken" as you say, where teaching is often a secondary goal. "Publish or perish"? I admire teachers who can teach in a secondary language, but that doesn't make them good for the students. Research is good for the schools bottom line, which should be good for the student, but not while you're taking the course of a professor who really wants to be in the lab.

    I just wanted new freshmen to be aware of this.
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    Another thing to note is that the good lecturers aren't always the good teachers.

    In my first year (we go straight into our major in effect) I had a module on Digital Logic and Microprocessors, taught by two members of staff. One was a really good lecturer, taught the class from his own book (which I'd recommend to anybody interested in the basics of Digital Logic*), and made me suspect he'd done amateur dramatics at some point because of how much he'd ham it up. It really made you remember the information when he'd act so excited at logic gates outputting a one.

    The other was a rubbish lecturer, but if you went to his office during his drop in hours was really good at teaching you what you'd missed. Rubbish at giving the information to a load of students, great at teaching one on one or to a small group.

    * Not giving the title because I'm kind of wary about giving out details of the University I attended until earlier this year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Another thing to note is that the good lecturers aren't always the good teachers.

    In my first year (we go straight into our major in effect) I had a module on Digital Logic and Microprocessors, taught by two members of staff. One was a really good lecturer, taught the class from his own book (which I'd recommend to anybody interested in the basics of Digital Logic*), and made me suspect he'd done amateur dramatics at some point because of how much he'd ham it up. It really made you remember the information when he'd act so excited at logic gates outputting a one.

    The other was a rubbish lecturer, but if you went to his office during his drop in hours was really good at teaching you what you'd missed. Rubbish at giving the information to a load of students, great at teaching one on one or to a small group.

    * Not giving the title because I'm kind of wary about giving out details of the University I attended until earlier this year.
    ^ This is my experience with all but one maybe two professors. If you didn't learn well from them in lectures, they were usually better in office hours as they could adjust the explanation to fit your question. The one exception was a professor who couldn't give a straight answer. For example he allowed an open book exam with the textbook but wasn't sure if he was going to allow students to bring notes until the morning of the exam we got an email.

    Other notes about course work. If you go into a math based course like Calculus, there are sources that can solve equations for you. Only use those to check your final answer, never copy it. It will only screw you up on the exams which are the only things that matter, and it won't prepare you for the courses where you cannot just let the computer do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Knight View Post
    True, you go to college because it's the best way you can make sure your family eats.
    I'm going to cut in here, that is DEFINITIVELY not the truth. A worthless degree is worse than having no degree and may actually really hurt you in looking for work particularly certain kinds of work. I mean if you get a BA in Art Therapy, and I get a Carpenters Journeyman Card, which of us do you think is more likely to make bank money? I can tell you that college loses big in that scenario. And it's even worse if you go to college and find out that you don't want to be there and you drop out without actually making the degree, then you have debt, wasted time, and basically nothing to show for it.

    See, like you I bought into the "college is a second high school diploma" line that people have been fed throughout the 90s and 2000s, and it is horse ****. There are plenty of jobs that are unfilled that are much better paying than many or even most college degree requiring jobs (certainly true at the bachelor's level). And most of the jobs that I've seen that are "we'll take any degree" are clerical or management jobs, which it turns out are things that most people are not always good at, and they don't start out high, and management is certainly not going to want somebody that has less real world experience.

    So again, as the quoted poster was saying. DO YOUR RESEARCH. Use BLS stats, see if there's actually job growth in a particular field. It's difficult even to predict the STEM fields, since not all of those have that much growth and many of those are VERY competitive.

    So Tl;dr: The best way to feed your family is to find something you're good at that people will pay money for. Lots of people will pay money for carpenters, not many people will pay money for Art Historians (although there are a few).
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    Ok, first off, disclaimer--I went to college more than 30 years ago, and some things probably have changed. Keeping that in mind:

    Balance your study and your social life. You don't want to flunk out, or graduate but go looking for your first good or a place in a graduate school with bad grades on your record. OTOH, college is also a great place to build your social skills, and to network. Plus, as a old college mate of mine once said, "College is the only place that grown adults are allowed to act like little children". College is the last time in your life until maybe retirement when you'll have plenty of free time; don't pass up the opportunity to have a last bit of relatively unfettered fun. But again, keep up with your coursework. Exactly how you balance the two depends in part on how easily the coursework comes to you. Keep in mind that even if studying came easily to you in high school, college coursework is in general more difficult, and you will probably have more distractions and you won't have your parents there to make sure you study.

    Get a small refrigerator for your dorm room, to keep some drinks (and I don't necessarily mean alcoholic beverages) and snacks in your room. Don't plan on doing a lot of cooking in your room--you probably won't have room for much more than a hotplate. Some places, the dorm cafeterias aren't open on the weekends; find out if yours is or not, and if it's not, make sure you budget for weekend meals.

    Aside from the refrigerator and some clothes, you need to take laundry supplies with you--a laundry basket, some detergent, and fabric softener. And of course your personal grooming supplies--toothbrush and toothpaste, deodorant, etc. Sure, you can get those things when you get to the town your school's located in, but you'll often pay more for them. (That applies to basic school supplies as well, and for God's sake don't buy anything from the school bookstore if you can get it elsewhere--you'll almost certainly pay a LOT more at the bookstore than anywhere else. You may have no choice but to get your textbooks there, but even then, you can probably buy them used somewhere, and there's no reason to pay extra to get basic supplies like pens, pencils, and paper there.) Also, find out how much storage space you'll have in your dorm room, and let that determine how much clothing to take with you.

    If you're just starting college, you're probably 18, so keep in mind that the legal drinking age is 21 in all states. If you want to drink, I'm not telling you not to, but you might want to find out how strictly the age limit is taken at your school and by the local cops.

    Speaking of the local cops, try to stay out of legal trouble, and if you have to interact with them, don't smart off to local police officers or campus security.

    Finances and family situation permitting, try to take some summer classes each year. At many schools, the way courses are scheduled will make it difficult to actually take all the courses required by your major in 4 years, but going in the summer is generally a lot cheaper than regular semesters, and it can make the difference in not having to go stay in school for a fifth year. I recommend taking relatively easy required courses in the summer. Of course, if you want to delay your graduation for a year or more, you can ignore this advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    I'm going to cut in here, that is DEFINITIVELY not the truth. A worthless degree is worse than having no degree and may actually really hurt you in looking for work particularly certain kinds of work. I mean if you get a BA in Art Therapy, and I get a Carpenters Journeyman Card, which of us do you think is more likely to make bank money? I can tell you that college loses big in that scenario. And it's even worse if you go to college and find out that you don't want to be there and you drop out without actually making the degree, then you have debt, wasted time, and basically nothing to show for it.

    See, like you I bought into the "college is a second high school diploma" line that people have been fed throughout the 90s and 2000s, and it is horse ****. There are plenty of jobs that are unfilled that are much better paying than many or even most college degree requiring jobs (certainly true at the bachelor's level). And most of the jobs that I've seen that are "we'll take any degree" are clerical or management jobs, which it turns out are things that most people are not always good at, and they don't start out high, and management is certainly not going to want somebody that has less real world experience.

    So again, as the quoted poster was saying. DO YOUR RESEARCH. Use BLS stats, see if there's actually job growth in a particular field. It's difficult even to predict the STEM fields, since not all of those have that much growth and many of those are VERY competitive.

    So Tl;dr: The best way to feed your family is to find something you're good at that people will pay money for. Lots of people will pay money for carpenters, not many people will pay money for Art Historians (although there are a few).
    Facts are facts. College graduates make more than non-graduates. While there are always exceptions, practically all labor statistics back this up. There are simply not "plenty of jobs that are unfilled that are much better paying than many or even most college degree requiring jobs". If that were true, the labor numbers would be different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Knight View Post
    Facts are facts. College graduates make more than non-graduates. While there are always exceptions, practically all labor statistics back this up. There are simply not "plenty of jobs that are unfilled that are much better paying than many or even most college degree requiring jobs". If that were true, the labor numbers would be different.
    It gets murkier when you start controlling for other factors (e.g. who goes to college) and partitioning those categories a bit (by degree with colleges, splitting vocational trainings of various sorts and no training, etc.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    ...I mean if you get a BA in Art Therapy, and I get a Carpenters Journeyman Card, which of us do you think is more likely to make bank money?.
    .
    Chiming in to agree... and disagree.

    I, a Journeyman plumber, earn more than my brother (University political science major, who has some sort of web page making certification), and far more than my wife (English and Philosophy major University graduate, who then did 3/4's of law school), but we all earn less in combined annual income than a tenant that rented a house from my wife and I, that tenant was a neuroscience professor at the U. C. Berkeley and he made big bank. Of course just as most kids who play basketball do not play in the NBA, most college students don't become tenured professors.

    You have to know what your strengths and weaknesses are, unfortunately IIRC that's really hard to do at 18 (or even at 28).

    As youths I was more academically inclined and successful than my brother, and he was more mechanically inclined and handy. Given our "innate talents" one would predict that I would have gone to college and he would have gone into the trades, but our family couldn't afford for me to continue schooling and my brother suffered sports injuries that made him too frail for the trades.

    It would be nice if there was more guidance on how to make a life, but unfortunately it's all pretty by guess.

    From what I've witnessed going to college is no guarantee that you'll get to be middle class (my wife shows that), I also know that I've been able to get an above median income without a college degree (or in my case even a high school degree, I tested out early to go to work with a California "proficiency exam" that's supposed to be "equivalent", but except for my Unions apprenticeship program, almost no one accepts it as that).

    Judging by our incomes, my path was more lucrative (so far), but, once the hurdle of paying for college was overcome for my brother (partially with my wages), he had an easier time completing college than I had in completing my apprenticeship, as it took a tremendous physical toll, and other apprentices could work at a faster rate on the job. What enabled me to get my Journeyman card was bit of luck and by putting in more time on the classwork that we did after on-the-job work (in building trades apprenticeships you also go to night school). I got better night school grades than most other apprentices, but the main thing that allowed me to become a Journeyman despite not being as good on the job as most other apprentices, is that enough would keep getting arrested for bar fights abd drunk driving. Three times during a five-year apprenticeship, just when I thought I was about to get cut, another apprentice (a different one each time) would not show up for work because they had been jailed.

    The OP has no plans (AFAIK) of going into the trades, but this advice is good for either path:

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    Final word: A whole lot of people end up not working in the field they graduated in. Many of those have perfectly happy, successful lives. So try to set yourself up for a good start, sure, but don't buy into the lie that you absolutely have to be in the field you picked for the rest of your life or else.

    And whatever you do, never take out private student loans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    Final word: A whole lot of people end up not working in the field they graduated in. Many of those have perfectly happy, successful lives.

    And whatever you do, never take out private student loans.
    Agree with you but it is the problem of the whole system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexBlade View Post
    Agree with you but it is the problem of the whole system.
    Some of it is. But even in the best systems, people don't always spend their whole lives doing what they thought they'd do at 18.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Knight View Post
    Facts are facts. College graduates make more than non-graduates. While there are always exceptions, practically all labor statistics back this up. There are simply not "plenty of jobs that are unfilled that are much better paying than many or even most college degree requiring jobs". If that were true, the labor numbers would be different.
    There are plenty of jobs that are unfilled. The issue is that those jobs are skilled labor, not unskilled labor. You can't just grab a dude off the street and put him in a crane. But we're so short on Journeyman Operators that people who know even a little bit in PA are coming to their union as Journeymen. In the area I work, there are not enough carpenters for all the work (because of work on building a cracker plant) that we're having to import carpenters from out of state to work on it (which will probably get worse later).

    And yes, my job does make more than quite a few degree requiring jobs. It's harder in some ways though, so it's not for everybody. That was aspi's point, do your research, find out if there's actually a job that pays well in your field.

    (Although I might be wrong about Art Historians):
    https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-tr...nservators.htm

    https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction...el-workers.htm

    That's two categories with similar pay, and the non-college one has equal prospects and is actually better paying (and VASTLY better paying if you get into a Union).

    I'm not saying that trade jobs are the way to go. In fact in Pittsburgh, the Boilermakers are vastly overmanned and their higher ups just got caught with fingers in the pension fund. That's why I'm a Carpenter and not a boilermaker. Cause I did my research on that. You do your research, don't assume that broad truths like "College graduates make more" are going to filter down to your individual profession and you as an individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    It gets murkier when you start controlling for other factors (e.g. who goes to college) and partitioning those categories a bit (by degree with colleges, splitting vocational trainings of various sorts and no training, etc.).
    Quite right. Which is again, why a person considering a job field should do their homework and not just assume that "college degree = job"

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    .
    Chiming in to agree... and disagree.

    I, a Journeyman plumber, earn more than my brother (University political science major, who has some sort of web page making certification), and far more than my wife (English and Philosophy major University graduate, who then did 3/4's of law school), but we all earn less in combined annual income than a tenant that rented a house from my wife and I, that tenant was a neuroscience professor at the U. C. Berkeley and he made big bank. Of course just as most kids who play basketball do not play in the NBA, most college students don't become tenured professors.
    My point exactly!

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    .
    You have to know what your strengths and weaknesses are, unfortunately IIRC that's really hard to do at 18 (or even at 28).
    It is difficult at 18, particularly when many jobs in practice are vastly different from what is advertised.

    Edit: And part of doing that research is making sure you can tolerate the work. Like maybe if 2d8HP had known the level of physical involvement he'd have picked a different career path. I mean I've picked a VERY physically challenging career path, but that isn't something I mind. So you have to know well enough what you like and dislike to pick the best options.
    Last edited by AMFV; 2017-12-18 at 03:13 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    And yes, my job does make more than quite a few degree requiring jobs. It's harder in some ways though, so it's not for everybody. That was aspi's point, do your research, find out if there's actually a job that pays well in your field.
    With that said - economies can change quickly, and that research may or may not be particularly stable. The stats on how quickly jobs change can be exaggerated a bit (particularly as superficial title changes and mild rearranging of duties between positions can get counted as an entirely new job), but the state of an industry now isn't necessarily a great indication of where it will be in half a decade.

    There's some safe bets (I made a point of studying water treatment engineering a bit, that seems like a safe bet for a field that's both pretty irreplaceable and near impossible to outsource but even then there's risks around what does and doesn't get automated), but not many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    With that said - economies can change quickly, and that research may or may not be particularly stable. The stats on how quickly jobs change can be exaggerated a bit (particularly as superficial title changes and mild rearranging of duties between positions can get counted as an entirely new job), but the state of an industry now isn't necessarily a great indication of where it will be in half a decade.

    There's some safe bets (I made a point of studying water treatment engineering a bit, that seems like a safe bet for a field that's both pretty irreplaceable and near impossible to outsource but even then there's risks around what does and doesn't get automated), but not many.
    Definitely true, but some research can tell you if there's any positions in a field, or what exactly the work life for that position involves. I think finding work that you can tolerate is the most crucial bit actually. I mean, job availability is a good thing to look at, but it shouldn't be the only thing.

    Edit 2 (Now with actual advice):

    One of things you want to pay attention to when you're researching a job is the culture and type of people that do the job. I realize that "cultural fit" is like a bogeyman buzzword, but if you're working with people who are culturally a better fit it's a lot easier. When I went back to college and worked on my geology degree I felt very much like I was an outsider for years, until I finally decided that path wasn't for me. Then when I wound up doing welding and carpentry it was like I'd finally found the place where I really belonged.

    Also if you wind up considering doing something that you hadn't originally give it look. Both I and my wife are doing careers which resulted largely from spur of the moment things and then looking to see if they were feasible. Mine from applying to every union that I would have been able to tolerate and hers from joking about learning to give massages after I had my first strongman competition. So if you have a flash of inspiration career wise at least give it a look, it may bear fruit.
    Last edited by AMFV; 2017-12-18 at 02:47 PM.
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    Grad student speaking:
    Look for opportunities to get research experience asap, it's a tremendous boon for getting a job in your field or continuing in higher education.
    If your program offers a tutorial center, start taking advantage of it. Until you get into the latter years of your program you're unlikely to have much in the way of one on one instruction with professors so tutorial centers are your best shot at custom tailored instruction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    ...Then when I wound up doing welding and carpentry it was like I'd finally found the place where I really belonged.
    .
    FWIW, technology changes, skill in making lead-and-oakum pipe joints used to be expected for plumbers, now they're rarely used, but in almost two decades in the trade, I've only seen two years (2002 & 2009) when every willing person who was a skilled pipe welder couldn't get work, most years there's been more work available than people who could do it.

    There's trade schools, but there's even four year colleges with welding programs,

    The College of San Mateo

    is one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    .
    FWIW, technology changes, skill in making lead-and-oakum pipe joints used to be expected for plumbers, now they're rarely used, but in almost two decades in the trade, I've only seen two years (2002 & 2009) when every willing person who was a skilled pipe welder couldn't get work, most years there's been more work available than people who could do it.

    There's trade schools, but there's even four year colleges with welding programs,

    The College of San Mateo

    is one.
    and if you are willing to work your ass off in rough and remote conditions, you can make craploads of money as a skilled trades person.

    Remote mining towns, oil rigs, massive fishing vessels that spend 8 months at sea... They are always hiring, and if you are skilled at something like maintaining the machinery, they will pay you ridiculously well.
    Last edited by Aliquid; 2017-12-21 at 10:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aliquid View Post
    ...they will pay you ridiculously well.
    .
    They will pay you more than most Americans are paid, but not "ridiculously" (sadly).

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    .
    They will pay you more than most Americans are paid, but not "ridiculously" (sadly).
    I think we need some numbers here, what pay scale qualifies as "ridiculously" is subjective. What's the minimum that you would describe that way, and about how much do these types of jobs pay?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    I think we need some numbers here, what pay scale qualifies as "ridiculously" is subjective. What's the minimum that you would describe that way, and about how much do these types of jobs pay?
    .
    The minimum that I would describe as "ridiculously paid"?

    Any job that involves little risk of causing injury or illness, and little responsibility, and pays enough that one may buy two houses in good condition where people actually want to live, so $250,000 a year in San Francisco?

    As to what some jobs pay?

    I work for the City and County of San Francisco, and these are some links that show salaries for these City Jobs:


    Pipe Welder



    Plumber



    Physician Specialist


    None of those three jobs pay enough to now buy a two bedroom, one bathroom house inside City Limits, or within 50 miles of the City, that isn't a toxic wreck in a high crime area.

    As far as I know, someone used to be able to buy a two bedroom 1,000 square foot home for those salaries, if they're willing to drive more than a hundred miles to work, and endure a five hour commute, but I haven't known anyone who's done that in the last five years, so I don't know if that's still true.

    My boss did buy a house up in Sonoma County, and he starts driving at 3:30AM, which cuts his drive time to 60 minutes, and he then sleeps in his office till just before the 7AM start time.

    I live closer (a 45 to 120 minute commute), but me and my wife bought when houses were cheaper (wages were a little less then, but not that much less).

    I absolutely could not even buy the worst teardown condition house in our area today, so I don't consider myself paid "ridiculously".
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    That's it, I'm moving to America

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