WHFRP 2E: What's Cooler?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I recently picked up the PDFs for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (2nd Edition) and found a GM willing to run a game. He's letting us select out races and starting careers instead of rolling for them, and I'm trying to decide what would be cooler to play: an apprentice wizard of the Empire, or a dwarfen Runesmith-in-training?

My concern is less about actual capabilities and more about looking awesome...

If I play a wizard, I'm stuck between the Celestial or Grey colleges. My GM thinks Celestial Wizards are better because lightning bolts are objectively the coolest magic (in his opinion anyway ). And Azyr IS the Wind of Magic most closely aligned with Sigmar. On the other hand, I don't like their aesthetic that much with the skull caps and multiple lenses and gadgets on their staves and such. Grey Wizards by contrast, are much more subtle, and they have swords, which immediately adds, like, 10 coolness points. Plus they're like a cross between Gandalf and Batman! There's a certain smug satisfaction in using illusions and mundane trickery to outsmart enemies.

BUT! We'll already have a human in the group, specifically a Warrior Priest, and a Wood Elf too, but no one wants to play a Dwarf, so part of me wants to play one so that perspective is present in the narrative. While I know Dwarfs don't do magic the same way humans and elves do, Runesmiths are awesome (having seen them in action in Total Warhammer), and my understanding is they can actually help dampen stray magic, which would be helpful in avoiding Chaos corruption, whereas as a Wizard that'd just blow up in our faces.

So I'm kinda stuck trying to decide, so I thought I'd get some strangers' opinions.

What do YOU folks think is cooler? A Celestial Wizard? A Grey Guardian? A Runesmith?

Do I emphasize the "magic" perspective or the "Dwarf" perspective? Thank you for helping me conquer my indecision.

[Wraith]

I've played quite a lot of WFRP, so maybe here's a couple of things that might help sway you either way.

Firstly, remember that Apprentice Wizards don't have a College; you have the basic spells, but it's not until you reach Journeyman rank that you're actually going to be Grey or Celestial. If you're not playing a long campaign, this might be significant in that you'll need time to accumulate a significant amount of exp and money before you get to realise your intended class.
Similarly; Celestial Wizards, while impressive and colourful to look at, they have they highest casting requirements of all the colleges. Even when you hit Journeyman, you won't be casting their most interesting spells for a long time thereafter, and certainly not reliably until you reach the Master Wizard rank. We're talking at least a couple of thousand exp, with the game recommending rewards of 150-250exp per session. Again, this isn't a suggestion to NOT play such a character, but bare in mind that of all the classes you will be the furthest away from realising your intended role.

Secondly, take a look at the Trappings associated with an Apprentice/Journeyman Wizard; you get a staff, a backpack, a set of writing tools and your Grimoire. There's nothing there about skullcaps, or jewellery, or even having to wear robes and a pointy hat! If the aesthetic is putting you off, you're not obliged to follow it - go buy a sword and shield, or a crossbow, a nice suit, tell people that you're more of an 'outside' kind of guy, and lightning bolt anyone who wants to argue.

The Rune Priests class is very different to that of a Wizard, despite both nominally being magic users. Wizards have a variety of effects, from dealing damage and incapacitating enemies to healing allies and affecting the battlefield, but Runes are a lot less flashy. Think of them as buffs, affecting equipment and making people better at what they already do, compared to doing your own thing. Personally I find that to be a very passive role - a lot of what you do is preparing in down-time and through the rest of the adventure you tend to just be another flavour of "guy with an axe hitting things".
Obviously your own GM will have their point of view and in a role-play heavy group it's not at all a bad thing. I, however, prefer Wizards, as what they do is more proactive and a bit more varied.

All in all, I feel that of what you have asked, a Grey Wizard will be the best choice at least for your first campaign unless you're really, really into some in-depth role-play. All of your suggestions are doable, but this is the one where you'll be most active and will be playing your class proper, the soonest. Your GM is right; Celestial is certainly "cooler", if you really want to know what I think.

[RazorChain]

Go with the runesmith because your group is really going to hate you when magic blows up in your faces. You don't know the system but you'll literally be a walking timebomb.

We almost throttled our wizard to death after he corrupted all our food with a miscast spell. We were stuck in the middle of effing nowhere and nobody had any survival skills to pull the party through. In the end we scrambled to civilization after eating roots, berries and the barks from trees. The halfling in the group became so happy when we arrived at the first farm that he got chased around by the farmer while he was trying to stuff himself full of carrots and cabbage.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've played quite a lot of WFRP, so maybe here's a couple of things that might help sway you either way.

Thank you, Wraith! I appreciate it.

Firstly, remember that Apprentice Wizards don't have a College; you have the basic spells, but it's not until you reach Journeyman rank that you're actually going to be Grey or Celestial. If you're not playing a long campaign, this might be significant in that you'll need time to accumulate a significant amount of exp and money before you get to realise your intended class.
Similarly; Celestial Wizards, while impressive and colourful to look at, they have they highest casting requirements of all the colleges. Even when you hit Journeyman, you won't be casting their most interesting spells for a long time thereafter, and certainly not reliably until you reach the Master Wizard rank. We're talking at least a couple of thousand exp, with the game recommending rewards of 150-250exp per session. Again, this isn't a suggestion to NOT play such a character, but bare in mind that of all the classes you will be the furthest away from realising your intended role.

That's very helpful to know, thanks again. I do know that you don't devote yourself to one specific Lore of Magic until you hit Journeyman in the game, but the flavor text seems to suggest that even so you're still affiliated with or study at the College you'll eventually represent, though for Grey Wizards this is more hands-on, one-on-one instruction on the road, since there never seems to be anyone AT the Grey College in Altdorf, though that could just be an illusion.

Something I've been wondering if I take this approach, Realms of Sorcery lists three different "tracks" of spells for each Lore of Magic, and you commit to one when you get into a specific type of wizardry. I'm curious as to which would be the most effective set of each for the Celestial and Grey respectively. Here's the lists for both:

Spoiler: Lore of the Heavens Spell Lists

Show

The Heavens Elemental (Core): Curse, Fate of Doom, First Portent of Amul, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Storm, Omen, Second Portent of Amul, Starshine, Wind Blast, Wings of Heaven
The Heavens Mystical: Birdspeak, Clear Sky, Finding Divination, Fortune's Renewal, Lens on the Sky, Polish Clean and Gleam, Premonition, Project Spirit, Signs in the Stars, Third Portent of Amul
The Heavens Cardinal: Clear Sky, Curse, Fate of Doom, Fortune's Renewal, Lens on the Sky, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Storm, Omen, Project Spirit, Signs in the Stars

If I was playing a Celestial Wizard, which of these sets would you recommend?

Spoiler: Lore of Shadow Spell Lists

Show

Shadow Elemental (Core): Bewilder, Cloak Activity, Doppelganger, Dread Aspect, Illusion, Pall of Darkness, Shadowcloak, Shadow Knives, Shroud of Invisibility, Universal Confusion
Shadow Mystical: Burning Shadows, Eye of the Beholder, Mindhole, Mockery of Death, Mutable Visage, Shadow of Death, Shadowsteed, Substance of Shadow, Take No Heed, Throttling
Shadow Cardinal: Cloak Activity, Doppelganger, Eye of the Beholder, Illusion, Mindhole, Mockery of Death, Shadow Knives, Shadowsteed, Shroud of Invisibility, Throttling

If I was playing a Grey Wizard, which of these sets would you recommend?

Secondly, take a look at the Trappings associated with an Apprentice/Journeyman Wizard; you get a staff, a backpack, a set of writing tools and your Grimoire. There's nothing there about skullcaps, or jewellery, or even having to wear robes and a pointy hat! If the aesthetic is putting you off, you're not obliged to follow it - go buy a sword and shield, or a crossbow, a nice suit, tell people that you're more of an 'outside' kind of guy, and lightning bolt anyone who wants to argue.

I am QUITE interested in using a sword along with a wizard staff. It's part of the uniform for Grey Wizards, yes, but even as a Celestial Wizard I'd wanna use one.

The Rune Priests class is very different to that of a Wizard, despite both nominally being magic users. Wizards have a variety of effects, from dealing damage and incapacitating enemies to healing allies and affecting the battlefield, but Runes are a lot less flashy. Think of them as buffs, affecting equipment and making people better at what they already do, compared to doing your own thing. Personally I find that to be a very passive role - a lot of what you do is preparing in down-time and through the rest of the adventure you tend to just be another flavour of "guy with an axe hitting things".
Obviously your own GM will have their point of view and in a role-play heavy group it's not at all a bad thing. I, however, prefer Wizards, as what they do is more proactive and a bit more varied.

I do tend to be heavy into the role-play, and most of my group is too, though I do like being proactive. Part of me does feel the need to be the instigator and since Wizards, as you say, are more proactive, that ties in with that quite well. On the other hand though, if I do do that, no one else will want to play a dwarf because apart from the Warrior Priest's player, the others in my group tend to play "pretty" characters, and few people would call Warhammer's dwarfs "pretty." So we're gonna be seeing at least one elf, maybe more, in this group, and quite possibly no dwarfs or halflings, and that feels narratively lopsided to me, since the group would be made up of only half the available races to play as. We'd have no stake in any dwarf-based conflicts the GM might throw at us, for example, especially since he's indicated his campaign will take us to Tilea and then all the way to Albion, in the opposite direction of the Karaz Ankor...

All in all, I feel that of what you have asked, a Grey Wizard will be the best choice at least for your first campaign unless you're really, really into some in-depth role-play. All of your suggestions are doable, but this is the one where you'll be most active and will be playing your class proper, the soonest. Your GM is right; Celestial is certainly "cooler", if you really want to know what I think.

Thank you again for the suggestions! I really felt like I needed some outside perspective for this decision since the only other person I've gotten to talk to about this is the GM and he's basically "I'm okay with any decision you make *shrug*" and for an indecisive person like me that just makes it worse.

[The Glyphstone]

You can still have a stake in conflicts involving dwarves without a dwarf, just pick something other than 'dwarves are involved'. You dislike the people they are fighting against (or you dislike the dwarves). You want them to owe you a favor. You want their gold. Plenty of reasons aside automatic racial affiliation.

[Glorthindel]

The danger with Runepriests is you need a lot of downtime to use your main feature (we are talking weeks and months for the better abilities), and if you aren't going to have those sorts of downtime stretches, you'll find your main ability going unused.

[Wraith]

....the flavor text seems to suggest that even so you're still affiliated with or study at the College you'll eventually represent.....

Apologies, I was thinking purely in terms of mechanics; if you decide that you're an undergraduate of the College from the get-go then that's entirely you and your GM's prerogative.

If I was playing a Celestial Wizard, which of these sets would you recommend?

If I was playing a Grey Wizard, which of these sets would you recommend?

I'm not going to ignore these questions, but I haven't played much in a few years and I'm away from my Realms of Sorcery book, so I don't really remember what they all do. If I can dig it out then I'll get back to you, but otherwise I'd say to spend some time with the book, read the six or seven easiest-to-cast spells in each list, and decide for yourself which ones you think you'll be using the most. Primarily, you'll be used for your expertise in magic, remember, rather than your ability to wipe an encounter in one go; as strange as it sounds to be told as a wizard, try not to get too hung up on the actual spells.

We'd have no stake in any dwarf-based conflicts the GM might throw at us, for example, especially since he's indicated his campaign will take us to Tilea and then all the way to Albion, in the opposite direction of the Karaz Ankor...

May I ask how well you know the Warhammer Fantasy setting? If 'not much' I'd recommend getting to know a little bit about the Empire at least; the entire nation (essentially it's medieval Germany) was built by humans under the expert supervision of Dwarf craftsmen, and the capital city Altdorf is one of the biggest Dwarf cities outside of the World's Edge Mountains.

Since you'll be travelling from Tilia ("Italy") to Albion ("Britain") then chances are that you'll be spending a lot of the journey in the Empire. There's plenty for a Dwarf to do, especially a travelling Rune Smith - part blacksmith, part priest - who can visit his ex-patriated countrymen along the way.

Go with the runesmith because your group is really going to hate you when magic blows up in your faces. You don't know the system but you'll literally be a walking timebomb.

Ah, don't be a wimp! A Wizard botching his rolls makes for the BEST WFRP war-stories! Every party should have one to keep things interesting!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Apologies, I was thinking purely in terms of mechanics; if you decide that you're an undergraduate of the College from the get-go then that's entirely you and your GM's prerogative.

No apology necessary.

I understood your intent, and like I said, not every Order's training is the same. If I was a Grey Wizard, then I probably wouldn't see the Grey College for a while, considering Grey Wizards spend most of their time on the road and train their apprentices in the field. It's just that what I've read about the Celestial College indicates my backstory should include at least SOME time there because I'd seen it in my dreams or something.

I'm not going to ignore these questions, but I haven't played much in a few years and I'm away from my Realms of Sorcery book, so I don't really remember what they all do. If I can dig it out then I'll get back to you, but otherwise I'd say to spend some time with the book, read the six or seven easiest-to-cast spells in each list, and decide for yourself which ones you think you'll be using the most. Primarily, you'll be used for your expertise in magic, remember, rather than your ability to wipe an encounter in one go; as strange as it sounds to be told as a wizard, try not to get too hung up on the actual spells.

'Tis cool, take your time.

May I ask how well you know the Warhammer Fantasy setting? If 'not much' I'd recommend getting to know a little bit about the Empire at least; the entire nation (essentially it's medieval Germany) was built by humans under the expert supervision of Dwarf craftsmen, and the capital city Altdorf is one of the biggest Dwarf cities outside of the World's Edge Mountains.

I've played both of the current games in the Total War: Warhammer trilogy, and before they came out I binged on their wikis, plus on the RPG books after I got them in the aforementioned sale. So, I'm familiar with most of that, though I hadn't read much about Dwarf life in the Empire.

Since you'll be travelling from Tilia ("Italy") to Albion ("Britain") then chances are that you'll be spending a lot of the journey in the Empire. There's plenty for a Dwarf to do, especially a travelling Rune Smith - part blacksmith, part priest - who can visit his ex-patriated countrymen along the way.

That's not QUITE the route we'd be taking. The campaign would START somewhere in the Empire (the GM has stated that he wants it to be someplace far enough from each character's "home" so we're all on an equal footing), eventually resulting in us being tasked with delivering a message to someone in Tilea. After crossing over into it, the pass we used would then be collapsed by Skaven, forcing us to find an alternative route that eventually sees us getting caught up in circumstances requiring us to go to Albion by ship, sailing around Estalia and Bretonnia in the process.

Ah, don't be a wimp! A Wizard botching his rolls makes for the BEST WFRP war-stories! Every party should have one to keep things interesting!

Oooooh, that sounds fun! Kinda!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, after seeing The Last Jedi last night, I think I can safely say I've decided on playing a Grey Wizard.

[LCP]

Was just going to chip in to say you don't need to worry about too many humans - majority human party is kind of the default - but it sounds like you're already set.

[Sinewmire]

In the words of a poorly remembered Terry Pratchett quotes:

"In the final initiation for the Monks of Cool, the applicant is brought to a massive walk-in wardrobe, containing stylish fashions and gorgeous couture from every civilisation in the world.
The senior monk asks: "Yo*, my son. Which of these outfits is the coolest?"
The correct answer is "Whichever one I choose."

*Cool, but not neccessarily up-to-date"

So whatever you choose, MAKE it cool!