Scry and Haley [spoiler]

[SandroTheMaster]

Well, it's just that someone had once pointed out that maybe scrying isn't working because she changed her name. At first, I thought it was unlikely because this kind of spell should look people regarding their real name, not what name is she currently using, also it would not be only based on name.

Then, just this afternoon, it hit me. Maybe that person wasn't that far off. The fact that may be making scrying difficult may very well be the fact that no one knows her real name. Judging that we know she is from a Royal family (how it was exposed in an old strip), first of all she wouldn't be using her real name around, even with her friends, and also Starshine doesn't really ring as a Royal name.

Please discuss if you will. I'm not really into the depts of how scrying works and the what-nots (it's a spell a DM rarely let be useful for the players), but V did explicitly say "Show me Haley Starshine".

[*Templar*]

I'm sorry, I'm not grasping how this theory is different from the basic "Scrying didn't work because Haley is using a false name" one.

Why is it so hard for people to accept the very simple, reasonable explanation that Cloister is blocking the scrying?

[SandroTheMaster]

Because the original one says that she changed her name after AC incident. The theory is more of the likes to the OotS don't knowing her real name.

[Kish]

Then, just this afternoon, it hit me. Maybe that person wasn't that far off. The fact that may be making scrying difficult may very well be the fact that no one knows her real name. Judging that we know she is from a Royal family (how it was exposed in an old strip)

What? No, she is not. Have you confused Haley with Jillian from Erfworld or what?

Scrying attempts aren't working because of Cloister. It's really no more complicated than that.

[David Argall]

The fact that may be making scrying difficult may very well be the fact that no one knows her real name.

Now the very idea that an amateur can see in a day what professionals have missed while studying the problem for months should be obviously unlikely to the point of nonsense. Granted, we are comedy, so we can't rule this out entirely, but V and Durkon should be well aware of which spells need precise names and trying alternatives that don't require such close identification.
Notably, the basic PH spell, Scrying, will work despite a lack of a name.

Judging that we know she is from a Royal family (how it was exposed in an old strip),

You seem to be misremembering.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html

merely says her dad is held in jail, not that he has any royal blood.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html

identifies her pop as a thief. Granted, government is merely the strongest gang of thieves around, but that does not mean pappy is part of the government.

[SandroTheMaster]

Oh, forget it. I finally found the strip where I had taken my conclusions from, the letter clearly says Haley Starshine.

Oh well, lock up if you want, sorry for wasting you time.

[chibibar]

It all depends on the rules of magic you are in.

In normal D&D World you don't need a name to scry on someone. You need something of that person OR if you know the person yourself (an image) and the magic will work its way to locate that person

The only way to block that is to have anti-scry spell. Then it just come downs to who has the more powerful scry/anti-scry spells.

Another world that I read is true names. If you know someone's true name, then you can literally control them. This is not true in the D&D world. A true name is never spoken and hidden. If you speak of a person's true name, you would have control of them via magic. You can even summon them via True name, but I don't think the giant are using these rules.

[*Templar*]

Because the original one says that she changed her name after AC incident. The theory is more of the likes to the OotS don't knowing her real name.

I never got the impression that the theory was that she changed her name after the Battle of AC. I think the theory was always that Haley Starshine was a false name from the start.

[factotum]

But that theory doesn't hold water either because of the letter clearly naming her father as Ian Starshine...unless somebody is suddenly going to start saying that Haley is adopted, which we have precisely zero evidence for.

[Castamir]

According to a neighbour thread, she's currently playing Therkla, so the character "Haley" is currently not... uhm, "logged on".

[sihnfahl]

At least this was a little more interesting than the idea that "Haley Starshine" doesn't work because she quietly married Elan the night prior to the Battle for AC, so she's now... ermm... what's Elan's last name anyhow?

[Dalboz of Gurth]

At least this was a little more interesting than the idea that "Haley Starshine" doesn't work because she quietly married Elan the night prior to the Battle for AC, so she's now... ermm... what's Elan's last name anyhow?

I kinda liked that theory for the sole reason that I don't think we know Elan's last name, do we? lol

[Kreistor]

Spoiler contains text of the Scry spell from the SRD.

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Scrying
Divination (Scrying)
Level: Brd 3, Clr 5, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M/DF, F
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: See text
Effect Magical sensor
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You can see and hear some creature, which may be at any distance. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the scrying attempt simply fails. The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Furthermore, if the subject is on another plane, it gets a +5 bonus on its Will save.

Knowledge Will Save Modifier
None1 +10
Secondhand (you have heard of the subject) +5
Firsthand (you have met the subject) +0
Familiar (you know the subject well) –5
1 You must have some sort of connection to a creature you have no knowledge of.
Connection Will Save Modifier
Likeness or picture –2
Possession or garment –4
Body part, lock of hair, bit of nail, etc. –10

If the save fails, you can see and hear the subject and the subject’s immediate surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject). If the subject moves, the sensor follows at a speed of up to 150 feet.
As with all divination (scrying) spells, the sensor has your full visual acuity, including any magical effects. In addition, the following spells have a 5% chance per caster level of operating through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message.
If the save succeeds, you can’t attempt to scry on that subject again for at least 24 hours.
Arcane Material Component: The eye of a hawk, an eagle, or a roc, plus nitric acid, copper, and zinc.
Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard Focus: A mirror of finely wrought and highly polished silver costing not less than 1,000 gp. The mirror must be at least 2 feet by 4 feet.
Cleric Focus: A holy water font costing not less than 100 gp.
Druid Focus: A natural pool of water.

Scrying, Greater
Divination (Scrying)
Level: Brd 6, Clr 7, Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Duration: 1 hour/level
This spell functions like scrying, except as noted above. Additionally, all of the following spells function reliably through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, message, read magic, and tongues.

I'm reading through that description and you know what? Not once does it mention requiring to know someone's name. You don't even need to know the person well. Success is proportional to how well you know the person.

At worst, the Dm might decide that if Haley is pretending to be someone else, that V no longer knows her well, in which case her chance of success is only reduced, not eliminated. Given V's repeated tries, a few months worth, something else must be interfering.

[Setra]

So?

Does the SRD say you can use Control Weather to create Sonic Damage via a lightning bolt?

Or that Goblins are medium sized?

There can always be house rules.

Of course it's most likely cloister, but still.

[chibibar]

So?

Does the SRD say you can use Control Weather to create Sonic Damage via a lightning bolt?

Or that Goblins are medium sized?

There can always be house rules.

Of course it's most likely cloister, but still.

no, but The Giant tends to make fun of the rules or use the rules as a base. Some are house rules (like goblins are med size). I'm just thinking that it wouldn't be far fetch that scrying is not working due to interference instead of a simple name change.

[Koraks]

Spoiler contains text of the Scry spell from the SRD.



I'm reading through that description and you know what? Not once does it mention requiring to know someone's name. You don't even need to know the person well. Success is proportional to how well you know the person.

At worst, the Dm might decide that if Haley is pretending to be someone else, that V no longer knows her well, in which case her chance of success is only reduced, not eliminated. Given V's repeated tries, a few months worth, something else must be interfering.

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Hey! You know what the description may have given out the answer to this riddle. I don't know if this has been stated before (probably), but mayby Hailey is resisting a scrying attemp, i.e. making her saving throw, because she does not want to risk the scrying attempt being detected and therefore revealing their position

[chibibar]

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Hey! You know what the description may have given out the answer to this riddle. I don't know if this has been stated before (probably), but mayby Hailey is resisting a scrying attemp, i.e. making her saving throw, because she does want to risk the scrying attempt being detected and therefore revealing their position

Oooo

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You are right, according to the rules. A target CAN resist it. Haley figure it would give away her position. If this is the case then we can assume she is STILL in the city for the last 3 month.... poor Haley

[*Templar*]

Why can't anybody accept the simplest, most logical explanation that it's because of Xykon? What exactly does everybody think the point of having Xykon cast that Cloister spell was if not this? Dear God, why???

[chibibar]

Why can't anybody accept the simplest, most logical explanation that it's because of Xykon? What exactly does everybody think the point of having Xykon cast that Cloister spell was if not this? Dear God, why???

not sure why :) I guess people is having hard time to believe a spell that last 3 months (even epic level) of anti-scrying field that covers an entire city.

[The Wanderer]

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Sorry, it just doesn't work this way with the names. What someone is known as and uses constantly for an alias is as good as their real name. Otherwise Eugene's Oath of Vengeance against the sorcerer known as Xykon, (Xykon is not Xykon's real name, and is an alias he adopted in his teens because it had an X and sounded sufficiently cool) would not have bound him, and it obviously did. Also, if it's an alias, then her father just so happens to be using an alias with the exact same last name for some reason, through which the evil lords of a distant country were able to track her.

So in short, get over it, it's Cloister at work, not anything to do with Haley.

[Kreistor]

Why can't anybody accept the simplest, most logical explanation that it's because of Xykon? What exactly does everybody think the point of having Xykon cast that Cloister spell was if not this? Dear God, why???

You're right, Templar: it probably is Cloister and Haley is probably still in AC.

For those discussing resisting Scry: Haley might have been trying to resist, but Will Saves are not good saves for Rogues. She will fail after a few attempts, and V is described as having tried many times. For many failures, something else must be interfering. In fact, since V knows Haley well, she takes a -5 penalty on the save, which pretty much means Haley will fail the save. The Giant allows for exceptional saves to solve plot issues by times, but repeated saves requires more than just the Giant saying someone rolls well.

[*Templar*]

not sure why :) I guess people is having hard time to believe a spell that last 3 months (even epic level) of anti-scrying field that covers an entire city.

Who's to say Xykon isn't re-casting it every week or two?

[chibibar]

Who's to say Xykon isn't re-casting it every week or two?

I'm not saying he isn't. I personally believe any spell of any type can be made permanent (even with new rules) but some doesn't seem to think so. Or a possibility of a spell lasting a long time without any type of permanency.

Also the spell Cloister is a custom spell with nothing reference of what it "actually" do per se. We are all making guesses of what it does.

Also three plus months in a city full of hobogoblin can't be fun especially with Belkar.

[Kreistor]

Who's to say Xykon isn't re-casting it every week or two?

It comes from an item. There's no duration limit on a continuous item.

[lorditchy]

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So why can't Haley and Belkar just be hiding in what's left of the anti-magic cell block? It would protect them from scrying from both Xykon and TOOTS. They must be still near Xykon though, if they had left scrying would then work.

[factotum]

What makes you think there's ANYTHING left of that block? The castle seemed to get pretty totalled when the gate blew...

[David Argall]

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mayby Hailey is resisting a scrying attemp, i.e. making her saving throw, because she does not want to risk the scrying attempt being detected and therefore revealing their position

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Ignoring that she would likely fail the save, Haley is on record
[484] as wanting to receive a message from Durkon. So she would have been eager to get contact and would not have resisted.
Now since she has been there for months now, she has probably done some things that might get the lich's attention, or she might fear would, and she might start resisting, so she could have defeated V's most recent effort because of this. However, we are still left with a month of time when Haley would have jumped at the chance one of her friends was trying to look in on her. So this will not do as a full explanation of why they can't contact her. Xykon's magic is still the best explanation [tho nobody has produced a really good reason why he would bother with the spell. Nothing that really rates above the "Hey, this is a neat little spell. Let's try it out."

[chibibar]

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Ignoring that she would likely fail the save, Haley is on record
[484] as wanting to receive a message from Durkon. So she would have been eager to get contact and would not have resisted.
Now since she has been there for months now, she has probably done some things that might get the lich's attention, or she might fear would, and she might start resisting, so she could have defeated V's most recent effort because of this. However, we are still left with a month of time when Haley would have jumped at the chance one of her friends was trying to look in on her. So this will not do as a full explanation of why they can't contact her. Xykon's magic is still the best explanation [tho nobody has produced a really good reason why he would bother with the spell. Nothing that really rates above the "Hey, this is a neat little spell. Let's try it out."

Some of us believe that Xykon just want a little quiet time while he is researching on the next gate. This last attempt was a little close for comfort and Redcloak express that Xykon needs to be prepare for the next one (in the comic) so I presume in order not to be "spy upon" and "trying to figure out what Team Evil is going to do next" hence the anti-scry spell :)

[Renx]

I'll just comment on the OP: Oh please.

[Triaxx]

As for V using Haley's Name, it's possible that his custom spell uses it to refine targetting and may not be subject to the will resistance. On the other hand, would the extra-planar scrying that Eugene is using be able to pierce the Cloister? Besides, Xykon's comment of 'this city is now off the grid' leads me to think that he's made all scrying impossible, in the same manner as that used on the throne room, but on a city wide scale.