Let's Read & Play: Baldur’s Gate II - Bhaal is Dead!

[mangosta71]

There were several changes I always made with ShadowKeeper. One was making Jaheira NG.

I think Valygar could have been another interesting romance for females. Or maybe Edwin for evil female PCs. Nalia could potentially be another good option; I understand that there's a mod that enables a Nalia romance.

Also, one of my favorite PC lines in BG2 comes up in Jaheira's romance quest, but you picked a different response. "I have violent thoughts all the time. Really good ones. I'm having some right now. You'd laugh if you could see them. Well, *you* might not..."

[Calemyr]

There were several changes I always made with ShadowKeeper. One was making Jaheira NG.

I think Valygar could have been another interesting romance for females. Or maybe Edwin for evil female PCs. Nalia could potentially be another good option; I understand that there's a mod that enables a Nalia romance.

Also, one of my favorite PC lines in BG2 comes up in Jaheira's romance quest, but you picked a different response. "I have violent thoughts all the time. Really good ones. I'm having some right now. You'd laugh if you could see them. Well, *you* might not..."

That's not really part of Jaheira's romance, just her personal quest which does draw off of it. You get pulled into that interrogation if Jaheira's in your party regardless of gender or LI. But yes, that line is a personal favorite of mine as well. Anytime the main character can be an absolute troll scores points with me, especially when the target richly deserves it like in this case.

The deArnise Romance by JCompton is a great Nalia romance mod crippled only by its creator's inability to extend it into ToB, which is a major pet peeve of mine when it comes to BG2 romances. It's well written and a lot of fun, but I really wanted to see how she and the relationship would evolve in ToB.

Other ones I'm rather partial to:
Tyris Flare: A pretty stylish and substantial one, drawing a fighter/mage from the game of Golden Axe and dropping her in front of your party. Tyris's primary goal is getting back to her world and defeating her own end boss, helping you in the meantime is a worthy endeavor. Her portraits (she's got 6 options) are great, the writing is solid, the voice is solid, and the mod fittingly uses Golden Axe music to backdrop her love talks. She's stylish, pleasant, and extremely useful. A go-to for me when I want my main character to simply have a partner in crime.

The NPC Flirt Pack: If you're going with the original four options, this is a very good call, as it adds a lot to the relationships. Things like random flirtatious banters with your love interest as well as player-initiated conversations for once. It makes romance part of the game rather than a side-quest, if you follow me, a recurring element that doesn't end on a set note.

Sheena: Like De'Arnise Romance, this one suffers from no ToB content, which drops it a large chunk in my eye. So the fact that it's still one of my favorites should say something. Sheena is a half red dragon fighter/mage multiclass with the ability to turn into a half dragon (using Icewind Dale artwork). You can't get her until you kill Firkraag, so she's a pretty late addition, but she's quite interesting from both a narrative and a mechanical perspective. She doesn't pursue a romance unless urged on by Mazzy, and the friendship between the half-dragon and the halfling demi-paladin is a welcome addition. Plus, it's a good excuse to bring Valygar along as well, because his knight/squire relationship with Mazzy is wonderful. The one somewhat downside about the romance is that at some point she goes Dragonheart on you and gives you a point of her constitution, but the cost is that your lives become linked and you die if she dies, creating two game-ending conditions instead of just the usual one. Also, due to using the half-dragon sprite, she's limited in what weapons she can equip, such as halberds, greatswords, and quarterstaffs. The real downside of this mod, however, is that the original author's website is long gone and he has pretty much dropped off the face of the earth.

Yvette: An interesting mod regarding a cleric of Sune who is trapped in a drawing. After communicating with her through the painting for a while she breaks free and joins you in the game. It's a pretty interesting way to initiate the relationship and the story is well told throughout. Hard to say more. It's sweet and creative and well done.

Kelsey: A love interest for Imoen rather than for my main character. Kelsey is a pretty interesting character all around. A sorcerer more interested in economics than magics, he finds himself hunted by arcane researchers who want to dissect him to learn how sorcery works forcing him to stay on the run. Not unlike Neera's plot, just written a decade earlier and without the frustrating tsundere angle. Kelsey is well integrated into the game, having comments on events as if he were actually part of the world, and will romance Imoen if the main character is male or otherwise engaged. He's a very likable, level-headed guy who brings a lot of arcane power to the table.

One of my recurring goals in this series is to build a party with the most interparty relationships (not necessarily romantic) possible. Minsc can claim Nalia or Aerie as a new "witch" to protect. Valygar and Mazzy have a great knight/squire relationship. Aerie and Haer'dalis can form a romance of their own. Things like that. I haven't found the perfect combination, but I'm still working on it.

[Spore]

Oh, Minsc Aerie AND Haer Dalis together are a delight, I tell ya. Nothing like two horny well motivated men fighting over a trophy woman.

[Honest Tiefling]

It really does sort of baffle me that they went with Anomen for the ladies' sole romance option when there's a much better guy right over there, and incidentally he already has a romance route, it's just not with CHARNAME!

Nalia would have been a better contender for a straight female romance despite missing some qualifications. A pile of burning garbage would have been a better choice!

Oh, Minsc Aerie AND Haer Dalis together are a delight, I tell ya. Nothing like two horny well motivated men fighting over a trophy woman.

I feel like this could work, sarcasm aside. Evil options would involve punching Aerie in the face, while good aligned ones involve communication, leadership, and respect.

Then again, Aerie is a *****. Screw her. Just punch her in the face anyway.

[Kish]

If Minsc reacts negatively to the Aerie/Haer'Dalis romance, or shows any form of romantic rather than purely protective interest in Aerie himself...that's from a mod.

[Mordokai]

The NPC Flirt Pack: If you're going with the original four options, this is a very good call, as it adds a lot to the relationships. Things like random flirtatious banters with your love interest as well as player-initiated conversations for once. It makes romance part of the game rather than a side-quest, if you follow me, a recurring element that doesn't end on a set note.

Oooooh, how could I have forgot that one? I really love this one... so many things added to make romance feel more... organic If I remember right, it even adds some silliness, which may not be everybody's cup of tea, but I really dig it. Nice to see Jaheira let her hair down every once in a while, so to speak.

[Khay]

Oh man, I forgot how many good mods there were for the Baldur's Gate series. Someday I'll have to do a modded playthrough as well. (Though I probably won't play the games for some time after I'm done with the thread.)

---

Hey everyone! We're back to regular content now. I was able to re-build my buffer thanks to last week's intermission, so everything should go smoothly now. In Chapter Twenty-Two, we finally make it to Suldanessalar.

Spoiler: The book

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In the previous chapter, Abdel killed Bodhi and Irenicus abducted Imoen. Today, we'll follow up on that second one.

"I want to ..." Imoen whispered, her mind a violent haze of fast-approaching hell, "go... home."
She was stretched, magically sedated, across a huge, broken, jagged-edged slab of greentraced marble in the middle of a city elves now long-dead once called Myth Rhynn. All around was the broken remnants of a great elven city, now gone to the wilderness and wandering creatures both benign and hellspawned.

Imoen seems to have partially recovered from her Bhaal possession. Perhaps that's a side effect of the magic sedation?

The final act of Bhaal is Dead! diverges significantly from its counterpart in Shadows of Amn. I think this is the first time the novel is actually expanding the world a little - Myth Rhynn does not appaear in the game.

Anyway, Irenicus is doing some bad stuff and Imoen does not get to go home.

The marble slab was tilted on one edge, leaning at a sharp angle. Imoen lay sprawled across it, her tattered clothes gone now, and a hundred twisted sigils traced on her pale, goosefleshed skin. (...)
Irenicus himself gagged on his own bile and stepped back. He lost his voice to the shock, revulsion, and twisted, freakish pleasure of the sight of his last desperate hope coming to fruition. (...)
"Yes," he whispered, his voice no more than a painful squeak. "Yes. Change!"
Imoen screamed, and it was the last sound she made as a human. Her face changed first. There was a loud sound like fabric ripping and the skin of Imoen's pretty, young, smooth-cheeked face fell away in ragged, blood-soaked ribbons.

Did... Imoen really need to be naked for this one? I mean, really? It seems to me she would've just grown out of them. She wasn't naked the first time around, back in Spellhold. Maybe Irenicus just wanted to practice his body painting skills, but this is neither the time nor the place for that.

Imoen goes through a grisly and painful transformation. Her jaw pushes out, her teeth grow sharp and needle-like, spikes sprout from her back and she grows a third arm out of her stomach. The process is accompanied by popping bones, ripping skin, dripping pus and spraying blood. It's quite gruesome. And moist.

"Bhaal..." Irenicus whispered, his face a twisted rictus of shock and triumph. "It is you... it is you..."
The bulb on the end of the quivering arm broke open even as a second arm unfurled itself from the growing beast. The hand that bulb had formed had more fingers than Irenicus could easily count. The fingers were set on the long, rectangular palm at angles and with joints placed so that it looked like no hand ever seen on Faerun. The fingers grew long, curved talons, which shone in the dawn's light in a way that revealed their razor sharp edges.
"The Ravager," Irenicus gasped. "The Ravager awakens."

It's nice of Irenicus to provide running commentary. That makes my job a lot easier.

The Ravager is distinct from the Slayer. It's another one of Bhaal's avatars, but the Ravager is like... well, think about it this way: If the human form is casual dress, and the Slayer is what you'd wear to the office if your boss is in that day, then the Ravager is business megaformal.

Imoen grows another arm, then another, each with razor-taloned hands. The slime and blood dry out and harden into a chitinous shell, and she screams, knocking Irenicus over.

[I]t turned its enormous saurian head toward Irenicus. The necromancer's knees began to shake, but he managed to stand. "Obey me," he whispered. (...)
"Obey me!" Irenicus barked at the thing, and its inhuman eyes burned into him. There was nothing of Imoen left — nothing human at all.
"Suldanessellar!" Irenicus shrieked. "Ellesime! The Tree!"
The Ravager roared into the dead morning air of Myth Rhynn, raged at the rising sun, then turned in the direction of Suldanessellar and took its first step. The ground shook, and Irenicus put a hand to his stomach to settle it.
He felt it and watched it go on its way to Suldanessellar, on its way to Ellesime, on its way to his own immortality, and Jon Irenicus began to cry.

I've hinted before that Book!Irenicus has a different plan than Game!Irenicus. Rather than take the souls of the Bhaalspawn, this version of Irenicus seems to use them essentially as siege weapons. It's sensible enough - the Ravager is a challenge for Epic-level adventurers. The local defenders wouldn't stand a chance. It makes me wonder why Irenicus grabbed Abdel as well as Imoen, though.

* * * * *

Speaking of the big guy, though: Let's check back in with our (sigh) protagonist.

Abdel burst into the forest of Tethir in a blue flash and just let himself collapse on the ground. The pieces of the artifact slipped out of his hands, and he made no effort to hold them, or retrieve them. He heard Jaheira call his name, and he put one hand down on the ground, intending to lift himself up to look at her. He heard her running toward him, and she slid to a stop next to him in the bed of leaves.
"The Rynn Lanthorn," Elhan said from somewhere not far behind and above him. "He's done it."
"I've done it," Abdel whispered, his throat tight and painful.
Jaheira's warm, soft hands touched him, and he rolled over to look at her, unashamed by the tears streaming down his face. The tears mixed with traces of Bodhi's blood.

Abdel keeps his face pressed against the ground, reaffirming his decision to take Imoen back to Candlekeep. Jaheira just kind of... holds him for a moment. Elhan's mages gather up the metal scraps, and we switch to his viewpoint for a moment.

* * * * *

Elhan stood at the edge of the Swanmay's Glade, the tall trees of Suldanessellar in front of him. "Do it," he told the mages in Elvish. "Open it." Elhan was ringed by several of Tethir's most powerful mages, and several of her weakest. Elves as young as twenty years stood side by side with elves who'd seen two thousand summers pass.

This seems exceedingly young. Elves aren't generally considered to be mature until the age of 110, though D&D is inconsistent about when exactly physical maturity happens. You probably don't want them wielding magic, anyway. Can't Elhan at least find some high schoolers or something?

Elhan scanned the line of mages around him. Chanting words that were old when humans first emerged from caves to stare in dumb fascination at the stars, the mages brought the fragments together.

Nice to see that all the elf supremacism was kept.

While Elhan is waiting for the spellcasters to do their thing, he provides a little more exposition. They can't get into Suldanessalar because of a magic barrier constructed by Irenicus, but the the lantern has enough magic power to blow a hole in it.

A wind blasted down from above, and Elhan had to close his eyes against the force of it. He was driven down to one knee.
It'll be over soon enough, sister, he thought, letting his mind touch Ellesime's. (...) The mage was thrown back with a shower of sparks, and there was another louder, stronger rumble that knocked Elhan to the ground.
It's open, Ellesime's voice sounded in his head, but it's not over.

Boom! At least we're getting some cool special effects. The telepathic link with Ellesime is new, I think. That should make finding her a little easier.

* * * * *

We then cut back to Abdel, for... frankly a rather confusing section.

Abdel could feel the vibration in the bottom of his feet, could feel the dizzying aftereffects of the teleportation, could feel his friends falling far behind him, could feel an old anger rising in him, could feel that yellow haze that always came before he spilled someone's blood, but none of those things managed to spill through into his conscious mind. He was running to get Imoen. (...)
Irenicus had his back to him, but Abdel was making no effort to quiet his pounding footsteps and gasping, exhausted breathing.

I didn't skip anything. The chapter goes like this: Abdel lies face down in the mud, then the local child prodigies blow up the magic barrier, then Abdel chases after Irenicus. Maybe they were transported to the city? But I thought Irenicus wasn't actually in the city. Last we saw him, he was having a little emotional moment in Myth Rhynn. I'm pretty sure that these are different cities.

Anyway, this chase scene goes exactly like the last one.

The necromancer smiled, spread his arms wide as if he meant to embrace the charging sellsword. Abdel almost ran him through, then ran him over, but Jon Irenicus blinked out of existence only to reappear a few yards to one side. The necromancer had the nerve to laugh at him.

Gee, if only you had a spellcaster on your team, Abdel.

Abdel slips and falls, getting a faceful of gravel. He struggles back to his feet, and Irenicus laughs at him, telling him that Imoen is already gone.

"Your sister," Irenicus laughed, "has achieved her true purpose. She walks Faerun in the guise of your father's avatar. Bhaal is dead, but his blood lives on, his power lives on, and I have twisted it, turned it to my will to kill Ellesime of Suldanessellar and rip from that damn tree what I need to live forever."
Abdel, sword in hand, continued his charge at Irenicus.
The necromancer held up a hand and said, "Don't you want to see? Don't you want to see it?" His voice descended into incoherent babbling.
Abdel pulled his sword back, determined to see if the necromancer could live without a head, when something hit him in the chest. It was as if he'd run into a stone wall, and the wall kicked back.

You'd think that after eight or nine tries, Abdel would realise that charging Irenicus simply isn't going to work. But... nah. Abdel refuses to even consider using tactics, even if that means wilfully endangering his own life.

Irenicus knocks him back with a gust of wind, and Abdel slams into a stone slab. His back produces a nauseating crack, and his legs go numb. His spine has been broken. There is a brief flare-up of pain, but Abdel remains conscious.

"You'll die before you see it, then!" the necromancer wailed. "I'll see you in Hell where I'll take your soul and meld it with the essence of the tree, and I'll be a god!" (...) Spittle flew from the corner of his babbling mouth.
Abdel felt a wave of overwhelming nausea. A haze of gray fell over his vision, and his head spun. He turned to one side and retched, but nothing came up. He felt a chill run up his spine, and his ears began to ring.
"Die!" Irenicus shrieked, his voice ragged and shrill. "Die, gods damn you, die!"
Abdel didn't die, but it took a long time for the sickness to pass.
"The s-son of B-Bhaal," Irenicus stuttered. "You are the son of Bhaal. I've killed a thousand men with that spell ... a thousand mortals." The necromancer cackled, falling to one knee. His eyes were red, still bulging and looking painful, as if they might burst. "It should have killed you. It has never failed to kill anyone— except Ellesime. Oh, you will serve me and serve me well."
Something popped in Abdel's spine, and sensation returned to his legs in a wave of prickling fire. He stood, tightened his grip on his sword, and fixed his furious gaze on Jon Irenicus.

I'm not sure what that spell was supposed to be. AD&D has plenty of instant death spells, but none of them quite fit. Power Word: Kill and Death Spell would work on almost all mortals, but they would also outright fail to affect Abdel. He's too beefy for that. They shouldn't even make him nauseous. Old-style Disintegrate has the same problem, and it should be immediately obvious when Disintegrate doesn't work, since Abdel would... you know... crumble to dust. If Abdel can somehow recover lost levels, then Energy Drain might work, but a single Energy Drain would come nowhere close to killing Abdel. Maybe Finger of Death, with the nausea representing 2d8+1 points of damage? That might be it. Finger of Death should have a far higher failure rate than 0.2%, though.

Also, I'm starting to understand why passive Regeneration is kind of a priority for high-level adventurers. I'm pretty sure that "broken spine mends itself in 1d4 rounds" is beyond the scope of even troll regeneration, but then again Abdel is an actual demigod.

Anyway, the party is about to catch up to Abdel, which means that the chapter is almost over.

"Abdel!" Jaheira screamed from some distance away.
Yoshimo's voice followed suit, then Jaheira's again.
"Where is she?" Abdel asked Irenicus.
"You can't do anything for her now, Abdel," Irenicus said, his voice strangely subdued. "It's all over. I've won."
Abdel, snarling like a dumb, enraged animal, shot forward. Irenicus said three foreign words and was gone before Abdel could take off his head.

Abdel. Please. Please just take the spellcasters along with you next time. I'm begging you here.

Spoiler: The game

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Last time - before the brief intermission - we defeated Bodhi and recovered the Rhynn Lanthorn. Before she died, Bodhi shared some... rather interesting information about the elves. We'll take the lantern back to Elhan and see what he has to say about this.


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In case you were wondering, I visited Athkatla after clearing out Watcher's Keep to pick up a few of the absurdly expensive prestige items. So we have some travel time ahead of us.

We should probably freshen up before we talk to-


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Hahahahaha oh my god what is wrong with you Aerie.

Anyway, like I was saying: We should rest. I'm sure Elhan won't mind if we sleep in his front yard for 8 hours.

We have another dream...


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... but this one is... different.

DRELLE: Awaken. Awaken and hear me.
DRELLE: I bring visions of warning, of what is happening now, and what may happen soon.
DRELLE: This image will speak true, for you are of two sides, and the liars have said their part.
DRELLE: You travel in search of yourself, divided, splintered. There is a piece of you missing.
DRELLE: The hole inside you fills with death, with darkness, while another... Irenicus... kills with your strength.
DRELLE: Look. Look at the destruction he has wrought. See the corruption that he brings.

This is new. I am not sure who or... what this Dream Vision is meant to represent. Some buried part of our self, perhaps? I don't think we've seen her before. It might be the part of our self that took on Imoen's appearance in the Spellhold dream, before the loss of our soul, but that's conjecture.

She has some visions to show us.


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Ah. This seems more like the kind of dream CHARNAME would have. We watch Irenicus slaughter his way through Suldanessalar for a bit.


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It's not clear if this is literally happening right now, or if it's just symbolic. Is this dream showing us actual events taking place elsewhere? How does CHARNAME know those things? Suldanessalar is shielded from scrying.

DRELLE: He has stolen your future to replace his own, avoided his proper fate. This must be undone.
DRELLE: For your sake, and theirs, you must take back what has been stolen.
DRELLE: If their lives are not enough, then think of your own. You will lose yourself to the hole within.
DRELLE: Yours is the potential to be your own worst enemy, or your own savior.

Well, that still ended on an ominous note.

Now that we've healed and regained all our spell slots, we should talk to the man in charge.


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He is happy to see us. You know, as happy as one can be when one sees a human.

This encounter can go a few different ways, depending on how you played things during the initial meeting with Elhan. If you avoided mention of Bodhi's name, you can call him out on that; and if he offered the stakes and holy water on his own initiative, CHARNAME will consider that suspicious.

ELHAN: You return. All has been relatively quiet here. I believe the Drow were mostly satisfied with the destruction of our temple. They have made no further serious advancement. Yet.
ELHAN: You have the Lanthorn! It is in the hands of the murderous vampire Bodhi no longer! I feel the tide of this crisis is certainly changing.
CHARNAME: How do you know that? I mentioned her name, but never said she was a vampire.
ELHAN: Perhaps not, but you did ask for Holy Water and stakes. One needs only put two and two together to make the correct assumption.
CHARNAME: Ridiculous. Why bother with this dance? I know you are hiding something. Bodhi was clear on this.
ELHAN: Anything said by her or the Exile Irenicus must be treated as suspect! You would do well not to repeat their tales to those that do not need to know them!
CHARNAME: So, Irenicus is now 'the Exile.' That's not a name for a stranger. Perhaps I should ask around.
ELHAN: No! This is... This is not for you to know.

Unfortunately, we volunteered that information, so Elhan is able to keep evading. (Also, CHARNAME isn't an elf. That also matters here, a little.)


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Still, this is all... very suspicious.

ELHAN: I can't tell you, <CHARNAME>, it is not my place to do so. The Exiles, this Irenicus and Bodhi, are criminals. Their crime was great, their punishment greater.
CHARNAME: And so he has returned for some sort of revenge. I fail to see the great shame in this.
ELHAN: You do not understand, and I am not prepared to make you. If you wish to know more, you'll have to talk to one of those involved.
ELHAN: Demin the high priestess, she will tell you. We will have to breach the city to find her. Fortunately my sages have instructed me in the use of the Lanthorn.
ELHAN: We must go, but most of my elves must remain to hold the Drow. We must not be struggling on two fronts when we face what is in the city.
ELHAN: Follow, <CHARNAME>, we must let the Lanthorn lead us to Suldanessellar. I can only hope that the Exile will have left us a city to find.


Journal entry:
The Elven city requires my aid.

The Rhynn Lanthorn will now guide us into Suldanessellar. The majority of Elhan's elves will have to remain here to rout the Drow, meaning I will be left to deal with Irenicus and whatever he has unleashed upon the city. Elhan has still not revealed the origins of Irenicus' hatred towards the elves, and has shed little light on why he refers to the mage as 'the Exile', saying only that the crime was great, the punishment greater. Irenicus must have done something especially abhorrent to the elves. Once in the city I will see if the high priestess Demin has any more information, if the city is intact at all.

In the end, Elhan will not say anything useful, no matter how hard you press him. Even if your romantic partner has been vamped. All he'll do is say he's "sorry for your loss." Bah. Elves.

Anyway, we have some... pressing matters we need to handle.


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You'll recall that the entrance to Suldanessalar has been hidden behind a glamer of some sort. The Lanthorn should help us pierce that veil.

ELHAN: It is here, I can feel it. The Lanthorn is almost buzzing, there can be no mistake. Stand back, and I shall make the way clear!

<The screen shakes a little, and the entrance to Suldanessalar appears in the tree.>

ELHAN: Ahh, sweet Suldanessellar. I have been away too long. I must determine what Irenicus has done within the city.
ELHAN: Walk with reverence when you step. You are going where precious few outside of the elven community have even seen.
ELHAN: Follow me within, and we shall determine the extent of the damage. I shall meet you on the other side of this passage. Do not tarry.
ELHAN: Keep that Drow of yours under guard. None of her kind has seen the beauty of an elven city since their fall. I would blindfold her if I could. Others would put her eyes out.

Okay, maybe wait with the racism until after we've saved your city? I'm just saying.

Although the story is clearly heading for a climax, this is not a point of no return. The branch you can see in the screenshot is located on the "Forest of Tethir" map. (You know, the one with Lanfear on it.) If you want, you can walk over to the area transition and go do a few more sidequests.

... the elves would kind of deserve that, but... we do also kind of need our soul back. So... Suldanessalar it is.


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The area transition cutscenes in Shadows of Amn are all simple camera pans through pre-rendered environments. Remember that this was the 2000s, though. This was still quite expensive. That's why the draw distance sucks so much.


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Welcome to CHAPTER VII. This is not the end, but you can see it from here.


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This version of the Infinity Engine could only handle rendering a few characters at any given time. That's why SoA has the "only 5 summons" limit, and I believe it's also why the army sent to retake the city consists of six people.

ELHAN: It is as I feared. The madman Irenicus has unleashed his anger upon the city. And worse yet, I now recognize the magic he has employed.
ELHAN: Corruption magics, illusions from a race of spirits, the Rakshasa. Such creatures are very predatory. It would appear that there is no depth to which Irenicus will not sink.
ELHAN: Suldanessellar is under siege. With this number of beasts under his command, Irenicus will be very hard to unseat.
CHARNAME: Direct assault, I say! Let his lackeys come! I'll take them all down!
ELHAN: We must proceed with caution. Not everyone in the city can withstand an onslaught like this. Their safety must take priority.
ELHAN: You must seek out Ellesime. She will know what to do. She has a link to the divine not unlike your own, though through a much more benevolent spirit.
ELHAN: Failing that, find the high priestess Demin. If anyone had warning of Irenicus and made preparations, it would be one of those two.
ELHAN: Go, <CHARNAME>, I will garrison this area with my elite War Guards. We will shepherd people to safety as you secure the inner city.


Journal entry:
Getting Inside the Palace in Suldanessellar

The Rhynn Lanthorn has shone the way to Suldanessellar, and Elhan was grieved to see that the city is under siege by multitudes of creatures brought by Irenicus, including devilish Rakshasa whose illusionary magicks hid the city in the first place. Elhan has told me to seek out Queen Ellesime or High Priestess Demin, either of which may be able to do something about the invasion or help me find Irenicus. Elhan himself will remain at the city's entrance and shepherd refugees safely out of the city.

The War Guards take a moment to cast their buffs, then charge ahead on their respective missions.


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As a civilized area, Suldanessalar is pre-explored. It seems that rule applies even to active war zones. We can see our starting point, and Demin's house over there. We have a lot of work to do if we want to make it from point A to point B. Let's get right on that...

... starting in the next update. We have plenty of book still to cover and there isn't a lot of game left, so we need to pace ourselves.

Spoiler: Comparison and commentary

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This chapter is... confusing. I can't quite make sense of the sequence of events. I've re-read it a few times, but I can't tell you how we got from "elementary school kids de-veil Suldanessalar" to "Abdel is swording at Irenicus in Myth Rhynn." It's possible that a teleportation spell was triggered, or that Abdel just ran there, but it's entirely unclear. (If the latter: How did he know where to run?) Since I can't quite deciper that, I feel like this might be a good time to step back a little and take another big-picture look at our protagonist and our antagonist.

Abdel, we've previously established, is almost impossible to defeat in a straight fight. We've seen hints of that before, but this chapter really doubles down on it. He gets his goddamn back broken, and he's hit by a death spell right after that, but he just... shrugs it off. He grows a brand new spine within seconds - a minute at most.
I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, Abdel's healing factor is a well-established superpower. It has been foreshadowed a few times, and this is a good payoff for that. A resistance to death magic fits the "supernatural vitality" theme, and it nicely rounds out his power set.

On the other hand, there seem to be no limits to Abdel's regeneration. Loss of blood does nothing, obviously, and neither do flesh wounds, but he can also regrow lost limbs, and broken bones mend within seconds. The thread has jokingly called Abdel "invincible" a few times, but that may actually be true. Having a powerful character is fine and all, but I feel like this takes a lot of tension out of the constant combat encounters.

"But Khay, Abdel has been defeated before!" I hear you protest. Well, that's true. Abdel can't be hindered. He does have weaknesses, which is to say that he can auto-lose a fight if a mind whammy is involved. But here's the thing: It can only ever be an auto-lose. Abdel can only be threatened by something that can kill him outright, and obviously he can't be killed outright because this is the second novel in a three-novel series. Combine that with the character's outright refusal to ever prepare for anything, and you end up in a situation where every encounter is decided by narrative fiat. If the enemy randomly has access to a mind whammy, Abdel loses. If the enemy randomly doesn't have access to a mind whammy, Abdel wins. It just doesn't feel like he's earning his victories, you know?

Book!Irenicus, for his part, is... rather different from his game incarnation. He has a different backstory, and he's oddly emotive. See, Game!Irenicus only really has three modes - cold triump, cold anger and cold indifferent sneering. His veneer of superiority only really starts to crack when things go seriously wrong for him, and at that point, he's all about rage. It adds to his menace, and it makes sense given that he lost his soul and his ability to feel emotions. He has a very reduced spectrum of emotions, and they're all negative.

The Irenicus of the books, on the other hand, cycles through emotions really quickly. Just look at this chapter - he experiences shock, triumph, disgust, rage and happy crying, all in the span of a few minutes. He seems almost manic at times. And, of course, he loves trolling Abdel and always giggles his way through every fight.

I... am torn on this. I mean, it's obviously a different character entirely. As an adaptation, this is dreadful. But considered on its own, it sort of works, I think. Book!Irenicus is a lot more flamboyant than Game!Irenicus, which says a lot considering that the latter invented the butt-cape. He just seems a lot less stable. You can make a character seem off-putting by having them over-emote or switch modes too quickly. The Joker relies on this, at least in the more serious portrayals of the character.

That said, this sort of undercuts Book!Irenicus. It feels... a bit silly at times. Part of the reason Game!Irenicus works so well is that he does a good job seeming invincible. The game keeps you from fighting him, he rarely loses his composure, and you frequently get to see him blasting mid-bosses apart. Book!Irenicus, on the other hand, spends a lot of time giggling and crying and jumping and choking back bile. That sort of thing.

I will say that I'm glad that Abdel also gets to occasionally feel sadness or disgust. See, it's hard to miss the fact that Irenicus is a giggly prancing doofus full of book learning, while Abdel-the-swordsman is a tedious blob of masculine virtues. Abdel did develop some human feelings in this book, which softens things a little, but the theme is still present (and uncomfortable).

The next few chapters will continue to provide... insights... into Irenicus and Abdel both. There are five chapters of Suldanessalar left, so... let's see how that goes, shall we?

For today's AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION, I'd like to step beyond Baldur's Gate a little. We'll be breaking through the siege on Suldanessalar in the coming chapters, but... the fact that it's a siege doesn't really comes across that well. This is partially due to engine limitations. The old Infinity Engine could only handle so many actors at the same time, so Suldanessalar feels less like a city under siege and more like a city with occasional bits of skirmishing. Throne of Bhaal will come back to this theme with Saradush, but even there most of the besieging army is strategically kept offscreen.

So here's my question to you: How do you feel about "big ol' siege" scenes, either in videogames or more specifically in fantasy RPGs? This is a popular theme, so it crops up a lot. Each game in the Baldur's Gate series has its own example, and of course there's an example in the common ancestor of all high fantasy. Do you have a favourite example? A least favourite example? Or just something that stands out in your memory?

[Keltest]

In my experience, most fantasy works tend to use the word "siege" to refer to any assault on any walled fortification. Obviously, as you hinted at, this is wrong. The only times I think ive actually seen a proper siege in any of the fantasy works ive explored are the siege of Saradush, sort of, and a couple times in the Black Company series by Glen Cook. Even the battle of the Hornburg wasn't really a siege, it was an assault that happened to take a while.

[Spore]

Did... Imoen really need to be naked for this one? I mean, really? It seems to me she would've just grown out of them.

Nakedness represents purity and vulnerability. So yes, if the author did not go into creepy detail about it, it adds to the story. Also if he wants to witness the transformation, areas obscured by clothing are going to be a hindrance.

also body horror.

The process is accompanied by popping bones, ripping skin, dripping pus and spraying blood.

then the Ravager is business megaformal.

I am curious which form you consider demimagnate. :D

It makes me wonder why Irenicus grabbed Abdel as well as Imoen, though.

As several people in this forum would point out. Even an epic monster has limited actions. Having two is an encounter.

"Obey me!" Irenicus barked at the thing

That was awfully simple. You'd take more time training a dog breed that responds well to training than commanding a demonic form of a dead god. Weird.

unashamed by the tears streaming down his face.

Do I see a hint of character development here?

This seems exceedingly young. Elves aren't generally considered to be mature until the age of 110, though D&D is inconsistent about when exactly physical maturity happens. You probably don't want them wielding magic, anyway.

This is a city under attack. You need....wait Book!Suldanessalar is never under siege...

They can't get into Suldanessalar because of a magic barrier constructed by Irenicus, but the the lantern has enough magic power to blow a hole in it.

You know when in films every high tech contraption doubles as a bomb? Yeah, this is the fantasy equivalent. When in doubt, every major artifact doubles as a fireball.

I'm not sure what that spell was supposed to be. AD&D has plenty of instant death spells, but none of them quite fit

Irenicus casts "Father's rapture" ingame. Maybe it's that one. Maybe he has 10th level spells, and somehow knows a 10th level spells (rather than 3.5's solution to metamagic up 9th level spells to use the 10th levels, or Infinity Engine's solution to emulate these spells with the high level abilties.

Irenicus said three foreign words and was gone

This just in: kay. thanks. bye. now official vocal components for Teleport!

Aerie: No wonder Khalid was the only man who would marry you.

I think I start to get why you people dont like Aerie...

I am not sure who or... what this Dream Vision is meant to represent

Spoiler:

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Come on, the actor description even spells out "dream ellisime"...

As a civilized area, Suldanessalar is pre-explored. It seems that rule applies even to active war zones.

It's only sensible to give the guy a map of your city even if he travels with a drow. Maybe that somewhat explains the threat of gouging out eyes?

If the enemy randomly has access to a mind whammy, Abdel loses. If the enemy randomly doesn't have access to a mind whammy, Abdel wins. It just doesn't feel like he's earning his victories, you know?

High level D&D always is kind of rocket tag. Also with a wizard antagonist you can only go so far as to which spells affect or dont affect the protagonist. That being said, Athans didn't even try. There's a multitude of debuffs he could have strained Abdel with, and powered him down to human levels.

See, it's hard to miss the fact that Irenicus is a giggly prancing doofus full of book learning, while Abdel-the-swordsman is a tedious blob of masculine virtues.

I would not go as far. But Book!Irenicus gives the vibe that a standard sorcerous villain would make in a work like that. Take the wizard apprentice that found Creshinibon in one of the first Drizzt books. He made himself a castle, he forced a balor into his bidding, all with the giggly fun of a high school student that was given ultimate power. It make less sense with Irenicus.

But when you are a wizard with centuries of successes under your belt I can assume you are either incredibly light-hearted or battle-hardened. With the best archetype - for me - being the silly fun guy, that deep down knows not to underestimate his foe. But Book!Irenicus can only work as an overconfident idiot because if he calculated one half of the avenues Abdel could attack him and win, he would actually default to winning.

And the goal to winning is not killing Abdel in this case. It's to stall until he has his divine power.

So here's my question to you: How do you feel about "big ol' siege" scenes, either in videogames or more specifically in fantasy RPGs? This is a popular theme, so it crops up a lot.

They are overdone and since most RPG engines are optimized to show a few dozen assets with more quality rather than hundreds of poorly animated foot soldiers, it ruins the immersion in most of them. In Skyrim it's 20 soldiers per side for the epic conclusion ot the civil war. In Oblivion I think you fight your demons attacking the Imperial city with a small squad of 5 elite Blades protecting their emperor. In BG 2, you assault a huge city with 6 people.

A close comparison is IWD 2 where the city gets attacked by orcs. There is kind of works. It's still just about 100ish orcs and goblins attacking, but Ten Towns, attacks are supposed to happen everywhere at once, and with Targos being a fisher town, it is excepted that only a few guards and militia form the defense. Ah, I think I'll delve into that game for the weekend.

[Khay]

In my experience, most fantasy works tend to use the word "siege" to refer to any assault on any walled fortification.

They are overdone and since most RPG engines are optimized to show a few dozen assets with more quality rather than hundreds of poorly animated foot soldiers, it ruins the immersion in most of them. In Skyrim it's 20 soldiers per side for the epic conclusion ot the civil war. In Oblivion I think you fight your demons attacking the Imperial city with a small squad of 5 elite Blades protecting their emperor. In BG 2, you assault a huge city with 6 people.

This is a good point, actually. Thinking about it a little more, I think most successful examples leave the siege mostly off-screen and leave it as a plot device. There's Saradush in Throne of Bhaal, and... uhm... there's... Siege of Avalon, I guess?

It occurs to me that I don't actually know a lot of good videogame sieges.

Irenicus casts "Father's rapture" ingame. Maybe it's that one. Maybe he has 10th level spells, and somehow knows a 10th level spells (rather than 3.5's solution to metamagic up 9th level spells to use the 10th levels, or Infinity Engine's solution to emulate these spells with the high level abilties.

Ooh! Sure, that can be my headcanon. Rapture of the Father is a 10th-level instant death effect that doesn't allow a saving throw. Hey, there's some precedent in Imprisonment.

[Keltest]

It occurs to me that I don't actually know a lot of good videogame sieges.

That's because sieges generally sucked for everybody involved. Soldiers don't like camping out in front of a fortress or whatever for however many months only surviving on rations and stuff, and being inside a siege is obviously bad. Nobody actually wants to simulate that.

[Honest Tiefling]

That's because sieges generally sucked for everybody involved. Soldiers don't like camping out in front of a fortress or whatever for however many months only surviving on rations and stuff, and being inside a siege is obviously bad. Nobody actually wants to simulate that.

I dunno, I could see quite a few series banking on people being amused by flinging plague victims around. The rest might be a bit boring, but a bit of fire can change that. People love fire.

Through I'm pretty sure that casting 10th level spells is a huge no-no in the canon of Forgotten Realms due to Karsus' little adventure. I uh, think that would require murdering Mystra or making your own weave with blackjack and hookers or something a bit beyond Mister Butt-Flap.

[Khay]

Through I'm pretty sure that casting 10th level spells is a huge no-no in the canon of Forgotten Realms due to Karsus' little adventure. I uh, think that would require murdering Mystra or making your own weave with blackjack and hookers or something a bit beyond Mister Butt-Flap.

I have to admit I'm not really up on historical Forgotten Realms canon. Wasn't there some sort of exception for epic magic? Buttcape McGee certainly has access to that.

---

It's been an exceptionally slow week at work, so I'm posting this update a bit early. We've entered the final act of our story, so here is Chapter Twenty-Three: Liberation commencing. I'll be honest, I'm pretty ready to be done with this book. Ah well. Five more chapters to go!

Spoiler: The book

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In the last chapter, Abdel had his spine broken by Irenicus, but it wasn't a big deal. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the city.

There was smoke everywhere, and Abdel almost choked on the thick stench of burning wood, singed hair, and crisping flesh. Screams of fear, shock, sorrow, and pain punctuated the morning air. All around there was fire, elves running, trees burning, and the visceral death of the elven tree city.
Abdel ran off the effects of the teleport that brought them back from Myth Rhynn fast on the heels of the Ravager. The beast must have flown, run faster than anything on Faerun, or teleported itself to beat them there. Jaheira and Yoshimo fanned out behind him.

Okay, so it's literally impossible to beat teleportation for speed, but I guess the Ravager must've something of a head start. Where are all those mages that keep teleporting people around? I feel like those would be handy right now.

Team Abdel shoves through the crowd of refugees fleeing Suldanessalar. The Ravager seems to be attacking more or less at random, causing mayhem across the city.

Behind him, Jaheira raised her voice into a keening chant.
The Ravager hung from the side of one of the enormous trees. Its long, taloned feet dug deeply into the ancient bark, and it had all four hands free. With one mighty limb the creature smashed a hole into the hollow tree and revealed the modest home of an elf family who couldn't possibly have done anything to deserve this. An elf woman screamed and all but threw a squalling infant into a bassinet in one corner of the room. The Ravager picked the woman up as if she weighed nothing and squeezed. The claws were as long as the woman's arms, and they impaled her four times from four different directions. She didn't scream again, but she managed a sob before she died. An elf warrior answered from below with a battle cry that set Abdel's heart racing again.

This is pretty good. I mean, yes, the prose is overwrought, and killing one elf at a time is a bit small-scale for a giant monster, but I'm definitely getting the impression of death and destruction.

The elven warrior fares no batter than the civilian. He is cleanly bitten in half. A mage throws a fireball at the demon, which draws a snarl but causes no visible damage.

Abdel took a step forward, and he looked at the sword in his hand. (...) Against the Ravager, it would be no better than a needle. It was poorly made and cheap and certainly not enchanted in any way.

Abdel is the worst adventurer.

Our hero stares at the Ravager for a while. He has to kill that thing if he wants to save the city, he muses, but that monster used to be Imoen; if he kills Imoen, then Jaheira will be sad. No, seriously, that's his reason:

If he killed Imoen, what would [Jaheira] think? She had tried so hard to turn him away from his father's blood. Any death at his hands was a betrayal of that. Wasn't it?

Yeah, it's waaaaay too late to start worrying about that. You've been killing without remorse all book, even when Jaheira was present. It's natural to feel different about killing people you actually know, but don't even try to start moralising now.

A few more fireballs hit the Ravager. The tree catches fire, but the demon is unhurt. Things are looking pretty bad for the defen-

...

... wait wait waaaaait hang on a second.

Is it just the Ravager attacking the city? There's no mention of drow or golems or anything like that. I assumed the fires were because of the attackers, but it seems to be strictly because the elven mages are using fireballs. That changes the context. One critter honestly shouldn't be this hard to deal with, if the elves weren't attacking it with the one element that is least likely to affect demons. Just put it in a Forcecage, you idiots. Or spam Otiluke's Resilient Sphere; the Ravager is going to fail its saving throw eventually. Or even just Blindness. If you don't have any save-or-die spells prepared, at least start flinging Magic Missiles at the thing. That's always the best fallback option. Bah.

Speaking of spellcasters, Jaheira surprisingly continues to be a druid:

There was a roar, a flash of purple and black, and a tiger the likes of which Abdel had never imagined, much less seen, appeared in the glade in front of him. "You know what to do, my girls," Jaheira said, her voice as certain and steady as she could make it.
Abdel turned to look at her, and before he saw Jaheira he'd counted six of the huge cats. Standing in front of her were two more. From the mouths of these tigers grew fangs like scimitar blades.

The Animal Summoning line of spells is a waste of time. The creatures it summons are too weak, and the spell slots too valuable. Eight tigers is definitely Animal Summing III, so this could have been an elemental instead. Not a fan. Not a fan.

But I guess it's better than nothing - summons are how you take down superbosses. Trash critters are a fair choice if you're mostly trying to soak up actions.

"I came here for ..." Yoshimo said to Abdel. "I did not come here for this. It is time for me to ... go."
The first tiger hit the Ravager hard and heavy, daggerlike claws tried to dig in, to hold, then tear. The monster reacted to the animal's weight with a sense of irritation rather than pain or fear. It took hold of the beast as if it was a mewling kitten and crushed its spine with a single twitch of its massive hand.

... okay, but you do need to actually do something to support them...? Lesser summons just buy you time. They can't actually win fights, you need elementals or devas for that.

One of the tigers manages to pierce the exoskeleton, drawing blood (which turns out to be green). The remaining mages focus everything they have on the Ravager, while our heroes bravely continue to watch.

There was a brilliant flash of blue-white light — a single bolt of powerful lighting — that ran parallel to the ground and was obviously the doing of a young elf, standing defiantly at the base of one of the mighty trees.
The Ravager shook off what little effect the lightning might have had on it and whirled to face the elf mage.
"That elf is going to die very soon," Yoshimo said grimly.

I guess the scene makes a certain degree of sense. We are currently at the part of the movie where Godzilla tanks a hit from a cruise missile or something, just to let the audience know that a conventional solution isn't going to work.

"Yoshimo," Abdel said, "we have to immobilize it."
"Immobilize?" the Kozakuran asked.
"Make it ..." Abdel fumbled. "Make it so the thing can't move. Make it fall down and not be able to get back—"
"I understand, now," Yoshimo interrupted, "thank you. So, we go for the legs?"

And, watching the devastation, our plucky hero notices a small, seemingly insignificant weakness that will allow him to save the day. It makes internal sense. Abdel is not normally the kind of person who would pick up on this, but there is some precedent for this. Abdel always know how to kill people. This book would've been much better if that had been a consistent characterization, rather than something Athans forgot about for most of the plot, but I won't quibble.

"Abdel—" Jaheira, who had moved up behind them started. (...)
"Don't, Jaheira," he said. "It was you who started this. Before I met you I wouldn't have hesitated — not just now but lots of times before. Yoshimo would be dead now, so would Gaelan Bayle — but they live because of you, because you taught me to fight with my heart — my human heart — not my tainted blood. That thing is Imoen. I can't kill her. I killed Sarevok, but I can't kill her."

So close and yet so far.

See, I can tell what Athans is going for. This would be a perfectly valid character arc for Abdel, learning to be more than a hired thug. For that to work, though, we would've needed to see some actual character development from Abdel. At best, he's been more selective about whom he killed, and he's been more willing to use nonlethal force than before, but it's clear that he has absolutely no problem with violence.

Anyway, the two men nod at each other and charge.

Abdel got to the thing's leg and made to swipe at the already open wound. The broadsword bounced off the thing's armored skin less than half an inch from the wound. The Ravager took no notice of him.
Yoshimo circled around. The Kozakuran moved with barely a sound, and though it looked as if he wanted to let loose a battle cry of some kind, he held his tongue. The sword bit deeply into the Ravager's leg, benefiting from the Kozakuran's running momentum. (...) "Enchanted," Yoshimo called. "The blade, I mean."

This confirms that we are definitely using D&D rules behind the scenes. Abdel is one of the strongest men alive; if force mattered, he should stand a fair chance of piercing the armor. But that's not how it works. Nonmagical weapons simply fail to affect the Ravager. I'm not sure what Abdel expected to happen.

This is also why I complained so much about the elven spellcasters earlier. See, the monster can be hurt. It's not even that hard, you just need magic. The elves really should be able to deal with a single kaijū. It might've been a better idea to tie the Ravager's weak spot more explicitly to its Bhaalspawned nature. That way, it would make sense that Abdel is needed to defeat it.

Yoshimo dodges the first counter-attack but not the second.

The Ravager reversed the direction of its arm and swatted Yoshimo away. The enchanted sword came out of the thing's leg, releasing a second torrent of green blood, and Yoshimo was thrown several paces away and to the ground.
"Imoen!" Abdel screamed. "No!" The Ravager roared and tipped its head down to Yoshimo.
The Kozakuran, stunned, shook his head and tried to stand.
"Yoshimo!" Jaheira shouted, "get out of there!" as if the Kozakuran would want to do anything but.

Okay, so, first of all: Points for having a non-Abdel character be relevant. That's nice to see. Yoshimo hasn't really done anything since joining the party, so this is nice - even if it's strictly his sword that matters.

This is close to feeling right. I'd like to see Jaheira participate too, but I guess she got her moment with the Animal Summoning.

Yoshimo tries to stand up but doesn't quite pull it off. The Ravager smacks him again, then pins him to the ground. That's it for Yoshimo.

"Harasu," Yoshimo said, his voice breaking, his right hand fumbling vainly in the dirt for the sword. "Harasu, ..."
The Ravager slowly brought one hand down over Yoshimo, withdrew the horn, and ripped the Kozakuran to bloody shreds.

No loving description of biting his chest off? Okay then.

Abdel dives for the sword while the Ravager is distracted, grabbing the blade but also suffering an attack of opportunity.

The Ravager had pinned him to the ground the same way it had Yoshimo. Abdel could feel its hot breath and the smell of it gagged him. The pain of the wrist-sized horn jammed through bone and flesh set Abdel's head spinning in colored lights and brought him to the edge of unconsciousness.

The Ravager then stomps down, crushing Abdel's skull. He dies and dissolves into dust, as the Bhaalspawn are wont to, and that's the end of the novel. It's a little abrupt, but I think we can all agree that it's-

Hm?

Oh alright, alright.

Abdel flipped himself over onto his side, letting the horn rip through his already numbing flesh. (...) Abdel's whole body twitched, then tightened, and the deep wound in his side closed all at once and was gone. The yellow haze deepened over his vision, and all he saw clearly was the Ravager — his opponent had become the entire world.
The sellsword hacked the thing again, then again, and again. He didn't stop until the huge hellspawned beast fell to the ground with a tremor like an earthquake and a sound only Abdel couldn't hear.

Turns out we still hadn't seen the ceiling on Abdel's regeneration ability. Mending a broken back is a nice trick and all, but even near-lethal damage inflicted by a demigod heals in one round. Note that this is after we saw the Slayer tear Bodhi apart without any effort whatsoever.

You know that thing I keep saying? About how it's really hard to care when we know that, no matter how much Abdel gets injured, he can't actually ever lose? That applies here.

The chapter ends once the Ravager falls. The main threat has been dealt with, but there are still four chapters left. Suspicious ...

Spoiler: The game

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Last time, we opened up a path into Suldanessalar, which is under siege. Today, we'll see if we can break through the siege and get to Irenicus before it's too late.


Screenshot

As Elhan explained last time, our first goal is to find High Priestess Demin. We are going to need some help to get out of this one, and she seems most likely to have a plan.


Screenshot

As expected, the city is full of monsters. The game is not kidding around with the encounters - it's all Adamanite Golems all the way.


Screenshot

That said, thanks to our detour through Watcher's Keep, we are hitting low-epic levels. A few golems won't trouble us.


Screenshot

The ambient noise for this area is sounds of battle, and you can occasionally meet defenders, but they are badly outclassed. I think these are the remnants of the local militia. You can save some of them if you're quick, but I don't think it changes anything.


Screenshot

Demin's house is guarded by a drow and his demonic buddy. Raamilat is the real threat here. He's a high-level mage, and this fight is a good preview of how every encounter in Throne of Bhaal is going to work. He has a Contingency and a defensive Spell Trigger up, and - given the chance - will use fun spells like Time Stop into Gate / Meteor Swarm. You end up having to use a combination of True Seeing into Pierce Magic into Breach before you can even start hurting him, and of course he can re-cast his protective spells. But, in the end, Minsc can handle this.


Screenshot

Demin is being menaced by a group of Rakshasa, but they are frankly pretty pathetic. (At least compared to Raamilat.) We easily sword them to pieces.


Screenshot

Demin seems more reasonable than Elhan, but I'm really tired of being kept on a need-to-know basis. Spill it, lady.

👖 DEMIN: Th-thank you for your assistance, strangers. Forgive me, also, if I reward your effort with questions. How do you come to be here?
👖 DEMIN: Our city is not usually found by outsiders, doubly so with the Exile employing his magics to hide us. It is beyond fortuitous if you stumbled here unknowing.
CHARNAME: I seek the one you call "the Exile". Irenicus has taken much from me.
👖 DEMIN: It is our folly if we think his terror would be isolated. I apologize if he pained you, for we are partially to blame for each act of evil he survives to commit.
👖 DEMIN: We will seek to make reparations when this matter is done, but the Exile is firmly in control at the moment. We are at his mercy.
CHARNAME: You will continue to be so if I don't start getting some answers. What caused this?
👖 DEMIN: I begin to feel it is a mistake to keep this amongst us exclusively. The consequences have been far reaching and have proven especially difficult to dispel.
CHARNAME: Elhan was particularly vexing, demanding help while also refusing information.
👖 DEMIN: I am not so concerned with the shame of our people over Irenicus and Bodhi. What good is our silence if the city is crushed because we would not seek help?
👖 DEMIN: As an elf, perhaps you will come to understand our hesitation in speaking of this. Hopefully it is a folly that will not be repeated again.
👖 DEMIN: The Exiles were not always as you know them now. They once had names that I would have been proud to speak, and were as worthy as any other of praise.
CHARNAME: Then they have fallen far from that lofty perch. I see no trace of worth in them now.
👖 DEMIN: Certainly you are entitled to your misgivings. You would not be here if you were not driven by powerful emotions, and the Exile is good at provoking a reaction.
👖 DEMIN: He has garnered the strongest of reactions from we, his own people, for he wronged us greater than any other. He is a criminal that knows no bounds.

Elves are terrible at getting to the point. Even the comparatively reasonable ones like Denim. There are some party reactions here, but it's from people like Korgan and Mazzy and Edwin.

Denim is about to spill it, so I hope you're comfortable and ready for an avalanche of exposition.

👖 DEMIN: Yes, he was elven as we are, but no longer. Queen Ellesime cast him out, for he had proven he was not elven at heart.
CHARNAME: That must have been some crime. What did he do?
👖 DEMIN: She and He were well known in the elven court of Suldanessellar. He, at least, was a great asset to our kind and kin.
👖 DEMIN: He was the greatest of our mages, as skilled as any of elven blood could be without divine assistance. He even had the favor of the Queen. It was not enough.
👖 DEMIN: Of the two, the 'sister' was the insatiable one. She was not as regarded, but she held great influence over her 'brother,' and pulled him into her madness.
CHARNAME: How lovely. It's nice that those butchers keep so close.
👖 DEMIN: Together they sought more than was possible; they wished the power of the gods, and they were not concerned about the consequences.
👖 DEMIN: He of the Exiles performed a dark ritual, and committed a grave offense against the greatest symbol of our longevity: the Tree of Life.
👖 DEMIN: He sought to merge his essence with the divine tree, draining it and stealing its energy. He failed, but there was a price to pay for the rest of us.
👖 DEMIN: He disrupted the elven connection to land and nature. There was a great shock that ran through Suldanessellar, and many of our weaker citizens lay near death.
👖 DEMIN: That he would endanger so many for he and his sister's selfish goals was one thing, but to threaten the very nature of what makes us who we are was unfathomable.
CHARNAME: Then why was he not killed outright? It would have saved a lot of trouble.
👖 DEMIN: It fell to Ellesime to judge the crime, and she was harsh. Having forsaken everything elven, they would be outcast so they might learn how precious our ways are.
👖 DEMIN: Of spiritually high regard, Ellesime petitioned the gods and a divine curse was placed upon the Exiles. All their connection to the elven spirit was severed.
👖 DEMIN: Ellesime thought it a punishment worse than death. A life no longer than a human's, and their elven spirits banished from the paradise all elvenkind are entitled to.
👖 DEMIN: The sister exposed herself to vampirism to try and counteract the divine curse, but gods are not routed so easily. The brother did not risk the same.
👖 DEMIN: A better man would have learned to appreciate what he had lost, perhaps learning humility and seek to make amends. He did not prove to be a 'better man.'
CHARNAME: Wow, what was your first clue, genius?
👖 DEMIN: We had hoped this would turn out better. The Exile has found a way to restore himself, has made pacts with our most despised enemies, and has resumed his original plot.

We've talked about this scheme in the thread, and I don't want to repeat that debate here, but... yeah, this was naive at best, reckless at worst. Expecting Irenicus to "learn humility" is a serious misjudgement of his character. Especially since you didn't actually take his powers away. You goddamn idiots.

Anyway, turns out we were basically collateral damage.

CHARNAME: And this is where I come in. He stole my divine soul through some sort of ritual.
👖 DEMIN: I have no way to accurately measure the cost of our decisions on you. Reparations will be made, if there is anyone left here to make them.
👖 DEMIN: I... I am still in shock that this happened. So much of Suldanessellar's defenses were away, battling the Drow and their incursion at the temple. We were left weak.
👖 DEMIN: One group of exiles helping another, both so full of their petty hatred and jealousy that they would stop at nothing to strike at our hearts.
👖 DEMIN: The Exile brought to the city magical constructs and demons, and a... a black dragon, which landed to the northwest. I have been trying to fight, but there are too many.
CHARNAME: I am to find Ellesime. After that, Irenicus is mine to deal with.
👖 DEMIN: The Exile has seeded the streets with his minions, and taken Ellesime into the palace. I have made an attempt to enter, but it is sealed tight.

This is looking pretty dire. Luckily, Denim has an action plan.

👖 DEMIN: Whether you search for the Queen or seek the Exile for reasons of your own, you will have to get into the palace and also deal with the monsters in the streets.
👖 DEMIN: And I believe there is a way to do both at the same time, though it will not be easy. No, we have seen to it that it will not be easy.
AERIE: Of course we'll help! I can feel the Tree of Life calling out in pain... and the pain of the elves is its pain as well! We must do what we can, <CHARNAME>!
IMOEN: Do... do we even have time for this? We're here to get <CHARNAME>'s soul back. Maybe if it wouldn't take too long. It's horrible to see this place suffer.
👖 DEMIN: I obviously do not have the strength, myself, to complete the task. I think perhaps you do. If I tell you what is to be done, will you do it?
CHARNAME: If there is no other way, then fine. Tell me what needs to be done.
👖 DEMIN: The temple is dedicated to Rillifane Rallathil. He can summon the spirit defenders of the forest to protect us... and has the power to break the seal on the palace.
👖 DEMIN: But the Leaflord must be awakened, his avatar summoned, in order for the spirits to come. The Exile's creatures have desecrated the temple and stolen the artifacts I need.
👖 DEMIN: The artifacts are lost in the city, held by the Exile's minions, perhaps even the black dragon in the northwest. There are three: a talisman of Rillifane, a golden cup, and a moonblade.
👖 DEMIN: Go into the temple, which will most likely be guarded, and place the items on the statue in the center. This will summon the avatar to our defense.
CHARNAME: This had better be worth the trouble.
👖 DEMIN: I believe so, stranger. I cannot be sure, but only Rillifane has the power. Go, please... the longer you wait the more elves will suffer. Quickly!


Journal entry:
Getting Inside the Palace in Suldanessellar

High Priestess Demin informed me that Irenicus holds Queen Ellesime inside the palace, and that he has sealed the gates with his magic. The only way to get inside is to deal with the creatures ravaging the city. This is according to her, of course... there may be another way in, but she is determined to save her people.

Demin's plan is to summon the avatar of the elven god Rillifane. He will awaken the forest spirit guardians to save the elves, and he has the power to break the seal on the palace.

Irenicus' creatures stole three relics from Rillifane's temple and I must return them. It was a cup, a talisman and a moonblade. The more powerful monsters will have them, including, Demin suspects, Irenicus' black dragon in the northwest. Once I gather the items I must enter Rillifane's temple and place the relics on his statue... that should summon the avatar. I must move quickly before Irenicus completes whatever plan he has set in motion here.

So, yeah, we've gotten to the point where the most realistic plan is hoping for divine intervention.

I quite like this setup - you have three artifacts you need to retrieve, but you can tackle them in any order.


Screenshot

The map is pre-explored, so you can plan your approach as you like. We'll go for the moonblade first.


Screenshot

A short cutscene plays when you enter the building. A demon is menacing this warrior. The elf asks Rillifane for death and victory, which he grants. We take the moonblade off his corpse.


Screenshot

The talisman is hidden in kind of a puzzle box. You can find the solution elsewhere in the city, but it's honestly not that difficult to figure out. You are kicked out of the dialogue box and suffer minor damage when you press the wrong rune, so there are only fifteen possible combinations. Plus, it's a creation myth - you know how those go. We retrieve the talisman.


Screenshot

This leaves just the cup and thus the dragon. ... "just" the dragon. Heh. I, ah. Yeah. Sure. We can probably do this, right?

The dragon in question resides on his own map. I think every dragon in SoA works like that - they are always in a little arena of sorts.


Screenshot

Niyzdramamine Nidzydrainman Nicole is appropriately massive and scary. Fortunately, there is a time-tested standard strategy for talking to dragons.

🐲 NICOLE: Food! Irenicus has sent lunch at last. It is well. I grow tired of this, treasure or no. Nizidramanii'yt is no pathetic soldier to guard duty over a tarnished cup.
CHARNAME: I am <GABBER> and I have no quarrel with you, culinary or otherwise. I just need the Goblet of Life.
🐲 NICOLE: Idiot! Food does not make demands of Nizidramanii'yt! The task is beneath my dignity, but I will not be derelict in protecting the Goblet. The reward is too great!
CHARNAME: Why do you do the bidding of this wizard? Surely a great and *powerful* dragon could not be subservient to a mere elf?
🐲 NICOLE: How dare you! Nizidramanii'yt is no slave! The wizard offers much treasure for easy work. I should kill you slowly, but you are not worth it. You are food! Cattle!
CHARNAME: I meant no offense; you are no servant! How dare Irenicus think that you will do his bidding like some mewling lackey!
🐲 NICOLE: Hmm, that would be the gist of it. But before you judge me subservient, understand that the wizard offers a great deal of treasure for such a simple task.
CHARNAME: What if I were to offer you more to give me the Goblet?
🐲 NICOLE: Who am I to be purchased like a painted whore? If you have gold give it to me. Hah! Then you may grovel at my feet in thanks that I have allowed you to live.
CHARNAME: I am not so easy to kill as that. Attack if you wish. You will be surprised.
🐲 NICOLE: Excellent! I do so enjoy it when they struggle!

Spoiler: Meanwhile, in an alternate universe...

Show

You can actually bribe the black dragon into leaving peacefully, if you are careful about it.

CHARNAME: Whatever Irenicus is paying you, I will pay more!
🐲 NICOLE: Hmm, the idea has merit. I smell your magic items and hear your gold. The Goblet is all the treasure that I have. Give me everything that you have and I will do likewise.
CHARNAME: You want everything that I own in exchange for the Goblet?
🐲 NICOLE: I *did* promise to protect the Goblet. Irenicus is offering me a great fortune. You can do no less if your truly wish to have the Goblet.
CHARNAME: Very well. Take everything and give me the Goblet.
🐲 NICOLE: Excellent. Take the useless cup and be happy that I allow you to live.

Ol' Knickers actually keeps his end of the deal, which is unusual for a dragon. You lose all your gold and all your non-plot-relevant items, and receive a plot coupon in exchange. This is obviously a terrible idea... unless you just dropped all your magic stuff on the ground before talking to Nicole. That way you'll just lose your gold, which no longer has a use anyway.

Ahh, okay. That, ah, could have gone better. Nibbles is a fool to assume that Irenicus actually plans to pay up, but maybe this is a relatively young dragon? BLACDRAG.CRE claims 21 WIS, but that seems unlikely.


Screenshot

As befits a D&D game, dragons basically function as superbosses. All the dragon fights in SoA are technically optional, so when you do decide to fight one, you're in for quite a struggle. Nicole has access to crowd control abilities, can cast a few spells, can knock your party around with Wing Buffet, physical damage resistance, magic resistance... all of this on top of a strong phsyical attack and a ton of HP.

Fortunately, we're pretty over-levelled, so we can get away with treating this like a damage race.


Screenshot

Phew. I hope we won't have to fight any more dragons. We take the Goblet of Life from Nicky's corpse and hurry back to the temple. No dragon scales for us to loot, sadly.


Screenshot

The militia is getting routed, so we need to hurry. Irenicus' forces seem to be specifically targetting civilians, which is all kinds of not okay.


Screenshot

The altar is also guarded, but it's nothing we haven't seen before. Imoen has access to Spell Trigger, so she gets in some fifteen Magic Missiles before the mage's Contingency triggers. This is a very short battle.

We toss the items on the altar and call forth the Avatar of Rillifane.


Screenshot

Rillifane presents himself as a blurry Shambling Mound for some reason.

🍁 SUAVATAR: ** THE AVATAR OF THE GREAT OAK STANDS BEFORE YOU, MORTALS. WHAT TRANSPIRES HERE THAT REQUIRES THE ATTENTION OF THE LEAFLORD? **
CHARNAME: The sorcerer, Jon Irenicus, has --
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** AH... THE EXILE HAS RETURNED. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** HE WHO ONCE WAS OF THE ELVES BUT IS NO LONGER SURVIVES YET. ONCE AGAIN HE COMMITS HIS SACRILEGE AGAINST THE TREE OF LIFE. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** THE EXILE PROTECTS HIMSELF WITH POWER THAT CORRUPTS NATURE. I CANNOT TOUCH HIM. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** HE HOLDS SHE WHO IS OF MY BLOOD IMPRISONED WITHIN CORRUPTION. HE USES HER LINK TO THE TREE OF LIFE TO DRAIN ITS POWER. **
CHARNAME: Why? What's he going to --
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** THE EXILE SEEKS TO JOIN THE SELDARINE. THE EXILE SEEKS TO BECOME A GOD, AS HE SOUGHT ONCE BEFORE. **
AERIE: He... he seeks to actually join the Seldarine? The elven circle of the divine? But... Corellan Latharian would never allow it! He *is* mad!!
VICONIA: So he seeks to actually join the Seldarine... to become an elven god in fact. The man is insanely ambitious, striving towards the impossible.
JAHEIRA: The Seldarine? The collection of elven gods led by Corellan Latharian? How would he ever propose to do join such ranks? Mad! Mad!
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** THE FIRST OF THE SELDARINE WOULD NEVER PERMIT IT. THE TREE OF LIFE MUST NOT PERISH, OR OUR CHILDREN WILL SUFFER. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** THE SPIRITS OF THIS WOOD WILL BE CALLED TO DEFEAT THE EVIL THAT THE EXILE HAS BROUGHT INTO OUR MIDST. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** RISE, SPIRITS... IT IS I, RILLIFANE RALLATHIL OF THE SELDARINE WHO CALLS YOU. DEFEND OUR CHILDREN THIS DAY. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** AND YOU, MORTAL... **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** YOU SEEK TO DEFEAT THE EXILE. FREE SHE WHO IS OF MY BLOOD FROM HIS CORRUPTION, AND SHE WILL SEVER THE LINK HE USES. **
CHARNAME: But Irenicus has sealed --
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** THE EXILE BLOCKS YOUR WAY, SEALING THE GATES TO THE GREAT PALACE. I SHALL UNSEAL THEM. ... IT IS DONE. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** I CAN DO NO MORE. **


Journal entry:
Getting Inside the Palace in Suldanessellar

I summoned the avatar of the elven god Rillifane Rallathil in order to get past Irenicus' seal on the palace gates. The avatar awakened the guardian spirits of the forest, which attacked the invading monsters throughout the city. It then told me that Irenicus' plan is to take the power of the Tree of Life for himself... both for power and revenge. Queen Ellesime is Rillifane's daughter and may be the only one who can stop the mage.
Rillifane broke the seal on the palace gates... my way within is now clear.

Befitting his power, SUAVATAR also has ** NO INSIDE VOICE **. I enjoy this convention. It's safe to assume the voice is deep and booming and smells like a wet forest.


Screenshot

Rillifane puts down the remaining troops and un-seals the palace. We are ready to strike at Irenicus...

... next time.

Spoiler: Comparison and commentary

Show

There's kind of a lot going on here, but I'm sure you are sick and tired of hearing my complaints about Abdel. The liberation of Suldanessalar also needs to be discussed, but we can do that in a future update. While this chapter is essentially just a long, drawn-out fight scene, I... actually kind of like it. It's relatively exciting, as far as those things go, and all the party members get to participate. It's pretty gokay.

For now, there's another thing I want to discuss: Yoshimo's character arc. Treason and atonement are some of the most fundamental themes in stories, and the arcs of Book!Yoshimo and Game!Yoshimo contrast in interesting ways. Book!Yoshimo has died, so now's a good time for that.

I am going to divide the basic "traitor narrative" into three chunks. First, you have the honeymoon period, where the traitor works with the hero. (Judas Iscariot is one of the twelve disciples.) The narrative turns on the moment of the actual betrayal; either when it is executed or when it is refused. Finally, you have the aftermath, where the traitor faces the consequences of his deeds. Let's look at these in turn. We'll assume you did take Yoshimo along - if you didn't, his personal plot just doesn't happen.

Game!Yoshimo and Book!Yoshimo start out as false allies. Both Yoshimos were employed by Irenicus before the game started, and both were tasked with making sure the scheme doesn't go off the rails. (The details are a bit fuzzy, since the prison break wasn't planned to happen, but we can assume that Yoshimo was part of a contingency plan. There probably as a lot of improvisation.)

In the game, the length of the "honeymoon period" depends on your personal playstyle. It's possible to keep Yoshimo around for all of Chapter II and Chapter III, which can mean several weeks of playtime. If you do this, he becomes a regular party member with a distinctive skillset, and you get to know him a bit through the usual business of banter and sidequests.
There's a lot of emergent storytelling at work here - characterization through gameplay mechanics. Yoshimo is written to seem untrustworthy, but mechanically, he's just as reliable as every other party member. If you keep Yoshimo in your party, you'll hear his selection quotes a billion times and you'll likely have a few fun stories involving his snare-setting abilities. These moments are unscripted, but that doesn't make them less valuable. By the time you reach Spellhold, he'll feel familiar.
This is entirely absent in the book. I have to emphasize this: There's absolutely nothing like this. The reader does not get to know Yoshimo. He's around for the big prison break scene in Chapter Two and Chapter Three, which would be an excellent setup. He could give Abdel the "allies do not come cheap in the city of coin" speech, but that kinda... doesn't happen? The story is set up, but there's no payoff. Yoshimo doesn't return to the party until Chapter Sixteen, and the betrayal happens soon after. There just hasn't been enough setup. See, in order for a betrayal to have an impact, you have to have known and trusted the traitor beforehand.

The (respective) revelations of treachery happens at different points. In the game, it happens in Spellhold. You are finally ready to confront Irenicus and rescue Imoen, and the game pulls out the rug from under your feet. Yoshimo has turned traitor, and poisoned your food. You don't even get to fight back. Your soul is extracted, and... well, the second half of the game happens. All of that is partially Yoshimo's fault. (And also potentially Saemon Havarian's fault.) The bounty hunter refuses to explain his motives even if you press him.
In the book, the big betrayal moment happens in Chapter Seventeen. Yoshimo gives Team Abdel some inaccurate bits of information about a gate, and they were going to fall for it, but Imoen showed up in time and blew up the gate. It's... rather more muted than in the game. This is partially because the betrayal isn't shocking (we had it spoiled), partially because there's no time for the betrayal to sink in, and partially there aren't any real consequences to Yoshimo's betrayal.

Speaking of consequences: How does Yoshimo's betrayal shake out? In the game, Yoshimo eventually explains that he has been magically compelled to carry out the plan. He begs you to take his heart to a temple of Ilmater, to ask the god to intercede on his behalf. (For what it's worth, you can kick him out of the party and he won't show up in Spellhold. When you get back to Athkatla and meet him in the Copper Coronet, he'll graphically die before your eyes due to Geas backlash.)
Game!Yoshimo's story is a lot darker and a lot less straightforward than Book!Yoshimo's story. He dies as a traitor, with his last act being suicide-by-CHARNAME. You can take his heart to the temple of Lathander, if you want. This might allow him to find peace in death - without this act, he'd probably end up with a one-way ticket to Carceri. ("The Crying God will determine what torment is deserved or not. If there is suffering undeserved, this Yoshimo will see relief in his eternal rest.") He is ultimately denied redemption, but he may find forgiveness.
Book!Yoshimo gets away a lot cleaner than that. His end fits into a cleaner "traitor redeemed" story. He could've probably slipped away from the party, had he wanted to - but he didn't, and so he dies to the Ravager. If you squint a bit, he was facing the consequences of his ill deeds (i. e. working with Irenicus.) I mean, sure, he didn't manage to fix his mistake and died, but the Celestials definitely award points for trying.

This is one of the most baffling things about this novel. Events from the game are repeated, but with circumstances changed so that their impact is muted. It makes me wonder if Athans really understood what the writing was trying to accomplish.

We are approaching the finale, and we finally learn what Irenicus was actually planning to do (and how.) Just like Sarevok, he is trying to become a god. He doesn't want to merely achieve godlike power, his goal is to actually ascend and join the pantheon. I... have no idea what the mechanics of this would be. Irenicus was one of the most powerful mortals around - he was no Elminster, but he was probably somewhere in his weight class. Jon has since gained demigod status on top of that. Draining the tree might elevate him to minor deity status, but I guess Corellon would be allowed to intervene at that point? I'm not sure. He's a greater deity whose portfolio includes High Magic, he should be able to put Irenicus down.

We've had this discussion about Sarevok, so I figure we should discuss Johnny's plan as well. So here's our suggested AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION topic: Do you think this scheme had any chance of actually working, or was Irenicus doomed from the start?

[Keltest]

Irenicus was pretty thoroughly hosed. There are a lot of gods in the Forgotten Realms who make a game of trying to pick on the Seldarine, like Grummsh (god of Orcs) or Malar the Beastlord and, plot twist, they mostly fail in horrible and embarrassing ways. But what happened to Araushnee is probably the biggest indicator that you don't mess with the Seldarine. She was originally a member, but she betrayed Corellan so the Seldarine stripped her of her divinity and banished her to become a demon, where she took the name Lolth. Surprisingly, she never really got over that.

The point being, picking fights with the Seldarine is a terrible idea. They always win, they win hard, and they can get personal.

[Kish]

The altar is also guarded, but it's nothing we haven't seen before. Imoen has access to Spell Trigger, so she gets in some fifteen Magic Missiles before the mage's Contingency triggers. This is a very short battle.

We toss the items on the altar and call forth the Avatar of Rillifane.

Note that you can also just run by the guards around the altar and put the items to summon the Avatar of Rilifane on it while they're alive. When Rilifane says "NO MORE SHALL THE TEMPLE BE DEFILED" he automatically kills any enemies left in the temple.

Epic magic is a 3ed concept. In 2ed, there was no such thing as magic more powerful than ninth-level; I remember an essay in one of the books on "Why There Will Never Be And Shouldn't Be Spells More Powerful Than Wish."

Baldur's Gate in general throws out much of the Realms-specific cosmology mechanics; Valygar is able to be a divine spellcaster without a patron god like he was in Oerth or something. The Wall of the Faithless? Karsus? What are those? That the tenth-level spells wouldn't have been legal in a game that cared about Forgotten Realms cosmological background doesn't matter here.

[Keltest]

Note that you can also just run by the guards around the altar and put the items to summon the Avatar of Rilifane on it while they're alive. When Rilifane says "NO MORE SHALL THE TEMPLE BE DEFILED" he automatically kills any enemies left in the temple.

Epic magic is a 3ed concept. In 2ed, there was no such thing as magic more powerful than ninth-level; I remember an essay in one of the books on "Why There Will Never Be And Shouldn't Be Spells More Powerful Than Wish."

Baldur's Gate in general throws out much of the Realms-specific cosmology mechanics; Valygar is able to be a divine spellcaster without a patron god like he was in Oerth or something. The Wall of the Faithless? Karsus? What are those? That the tenth-level spells wouldn't have been legal in a game that cared about Forgotten Realms cosmological background doesn't matter here.

Valygar is a ranger, and thus I don't believe he needs specific deific patronage to cast spells, being able to draw on the power of "nature" in a general sense, like some druids.

Also, does he specifically scorn the patronage of deities? I don't usually travel with him because Minsc is just the cooler ranger.

[Mordokai]

Valygar is a ranger, and thus I don't believe he needs specific deific patronage to cast spells, being able to draw on the power of "nature" in a general sense, like some druids.

Also, does he specifically scorn the patronage of deities? I don't usually travel with him because Minsc is just the cooler ranger.

My memory is a little vague, but I think "scorn" isn't quite the term I would use. He has some chosen words to say about deities in general, but I don't think he scorns them, per se.

Of course, I may be mixing him with Roy at this point, so lets wait for somebody more knowledgeable to tell us more.

[Spore]

Valygar is a ranger, and thus I don't believe he needs specific deific patronage to cast spells, being able to draw on the power of "nature" in a general sense, like some druids.

Also, does he specifically scorn the patronage of deities? I don't usually travel with him because Minsc is just the cooler ranger.

He does not need a guardian deity but this is FR. If he has none, he will be a nice brick in his afterlife.

[hamishspence]

The 3.0 Deities & Demigods book makes a distinction between "simply not having a patron" and "actively opposing the worship of the gods" - it's the latter that gets you The Wall.

[Khay]

My memory is a little vague, but I think "scorn" isn't quite the term I would use. He has some chosen words to say about deities in general, but I don't think he scorns them, per se.

Of course, I may be mixing him with Roy at this point, so lets wait for somebody more knowledgeable to tell us more.

I'm not too knowledgeable, but I do have access to a script dump. Looking through Valygar's dialogue, there's not much about the gods in there. At the very end of ToB, he gets a line about he's always thought it prudent to not attract too much divine attention, maybe you were thinking of that? He is pretty scornful towards mages, though.

[Kish]

I'm not too knowledgeable, but I do have access to a script dump. Looking through Valygar's dialogue, there's not much about the gods in there. At the very end of ToB, he gets a line about he's always thought it prudent to not attract too much divine attention, maybe you were thinking of that? He is pretty scornful towards mages, though.

Check his conversations with Keldorn.

[Mordokai]

I'm not too knowledgeable, but I do have access to a script dump. Looking through Valygar's dialogue, there's not much about the gods in there. At the very end of ToB, he gets a line about he's always thought it prudent to not attract too much divine attention, maybe you were thinking of that? He is pretty scornful towards mages, though.

Now that you mention it, I may have confused mages with gods... or vice versa. In any case, I remember he's pretty opinionated about both of them. But it's been such a long time since I've played the game(let alone with Valygar in tow) that, for the life of me, I can't remember it properly.

But be it as it may, thank you for remindering me. Of the awesome game that BG2 is and for doing the hard work, exposing yourself to Athan's horrible work of "art", so we don't have to.

You truly are a champion

[Spore]

You truly are a champion

Champion of Deneir or Ilmater in that case?

[Rusty Spoon]

As a lurker in this Let's Read since it started, I just want to say how fantastic it has been to follow. I've heard a lot about how bad the books are and... yeah. Understatement.

We've had this discussion about Sarevok, so I figure we should discuss Johnny's plan as well. So here's our suggested AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION topic: Do you think this scheme had any chance of actually working, or was Irenicus doomed from the start?

The question that finally sucked me in to respond!
In my admittedly not very high opinion of FR fiction, it'd probably go something like: Bhaalspawn soul lets him dodge Corellon's authority, become a new god of murder-magic, probably kill Mystra at some point, something something Drizzt or Elminster, something something was actually part of another god's plans all along and gets done away with in a sidebar of a 3rd edition splat-book.

[Spore]

We've had this discussion about Sarevok, so I figure we should discuss Johnny's plan as well. So here's our suggested AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION topic: Do you think this scheme had any chance of actually working, or was Irenicus doomed from the start?

Ohhh, I actually overlooked this one. As for Book!Irenicus. Hell no. The little semblance of a plan this has is getting ruined by logistics (which elven mythal are we attacking now?), everything else is getting Abdel-ex-Machina'd (Deus-Ex-Abdel?) away.

As for Game Irenicus: I am not as well versed in Forgotten Realms mythology but the following seems about right:

The point being, picking fights with the Seldarine is a terrible idea. They always win, they win hard, and they can get personal.

Not necessarily because they are the Seldarine. But because its a group of major deities supporting each other. And picking power from deities is generally not as easy. He should have gone after Bhaal spawn essense instead of Suldanessalar AND Bhaal spawn essence.

Granted, that would have thrown him into the ball game where ultimatively Amelyssan would have stopped him because he basically had what he wanted from the MC anyway. (In theory maybe Amelyssan only got so strong in the final fight because she starts absorbing the essence, so before that Irenicus maybe could have duelled her and won?

[mangosta71]

Now that you mention it, I may have confused mages with gods...

To be fair, this is a perfectly reasonable mistake to make. Prior to 4th edition, mages basically WERE gods.

[Calemyr]

Not necessarily because they are the Seldarine. But because its a group of major deities supporting each other. And picking power from deities is generally not as easy. He should have gone after Bhaal spawn essense instead of Suldanessalar AND Bhaal spawn essence.

I don't think Jon wanted the baggage that comes with Bhaal's power. A divine spark to seal the gap in his soul, yes, but, in the game as well as the book, Bhaal's essence is a tool rather than a goal - either as a stop-gap or a siege weapon. Pretty soon we'll see how that tactic bites him in the buttcape in the game, seeing as Abdel had Lojack installed on his soul. That said, Bhaal's essence wouldn't have been a particularly viable path. It's too spread out. The only paths that are viable (and even they are questionable to some degree) are nurturing a spark of divine essence into a roaring fire by pursuing its portfolio (Such as with Sarevok) or knowing where the essence will pool and letting the Bhaalspawn kill each other while you wait to collect it downstream (the ToB villain's tactic). Irenicus couldn't really do either, as he had the spark but not the blood. (Note that Charname only grows more in tune with Bhaal after their soul is removed, meaning a lot of Bhaal's essence was left behind.) Besides which... he was an elf, dammit! He was going to be an elven god, not some human murder-deity!

Honestly, I think the credibility of Irenicus's plan is far better than Sarevok's, but not as good as the ToB villain's. I mean... they all seem credible, and even Sarevok is demonstrated to be an extremely intelligent and cunning man for all his brute strength. I don't imagine Sarevok would go to that much effort without vetting his information first. The ToB boss has the best claim, on the other hand, because it's effectively the same one Charname can use - drawing divinity from the source rather than a tributary - and it works for Charname. The other two methods are ultimately unverified.

I assume you're not doing Siege of Dragonspear or Throne of Bhaal, Khay? Neither of them really get much love, sadly, and it'd be interesting to see a full examination of one or both of them.

[Spore]

I think then, a ploy to get Ellisime to leave her mythal area and get her soul sacrificed to demons/devils/whatever or stored for bargaining (not sure if trap the soul exists in AD&D). This way, simultaneously the mythal looses its best priestess and Irenicus gets a bargaining chip for dealing with fiends.

[russdm]

...and gets done away with in a sidebar of a 3rd edition splat-book.

Isn't that how it always worked?

[Spore]

Concerning sidebars in RPG source books. It always felt odd when rules-books mixed fluff with rules. Why it is the modus operandi I do not know. Yes, it is probably important to know which spell defines what ingame. But I was always of the opinion that if rules prop up the narrative instead of the other way around, the game suffers as a consequence.

But it is WEIRD when you consider D&D and Faerun where they basically change up the cosmology every 5 years or so. Because even gods need a bit of framework for the sake of consistency and versillimitude or however this monster of a word is spelled.

Other forums seem to note that Charname's rise through the levels is something Irenicus did not foresee and that his two worst enemies are the plot and as jackjack put it: "Power Word: Reload"

1) The rise in power: Equipment and artifacts are one thing, but rising from known hero to almost epic spellcaster/warrior/high priest/thieves' guild leader in the matter of 2-3 months is something not even the biggest FR heroes managed to do. Sure, you can manage the end fights with level around 14+. But even if you dabble a bit in off quests you are much much more powerful. And the effects extends to your companions, too so it cant just be some weird Bhaalspawn power.

2) Plot and Reloading: Yes, if not for reloading, many of the save or die effects would have stopped Charname's journey long ago. Death is a normal occurence in high-level D&D that can only be avoided by virtue of DM fiat (or in case of Drizz't fighting almost exclusively mooks). And with a main character that crumbles to dust once his heart stops. So yes, it is plausible for Irenicus to assume you'd die during your travels. Because you did. Several times. But it just didn't count.

I know the intelligent-lazy approach to that would be to include a fail-safe should Charname pull through. Intelligent-wise approach would be eliminating a factor from this equation. But if knew how deific essence works, maybe it was his intention to delay your death. Because if the essence pools and some Bhaalspawn can access it, they might be able to dispute his claim for godhood. A small fry like 8th level Charname is doing nothing more than holding a bit of essence back by stubbornly surviving. Another idea would be that maybe Irenicus cannot use Charname's soul because it too would be pulled into Hell once you die.