Has anyone else Problems with "Atleast I admit it"-Characters?

[Present 2.0]

To clarify, what I mean, with "Atleast I admit it"-Characters: I mean Characters, who are ready to admit, that what they're doing is just evil. Often in Contrast to Characters, who don't admit it and think, that they're doing the right Thing or are allowed to do that. An Example would be a Villain, who tortures People just for Fun lecturing an Anti-Hero, who thinks, that he tortures only People who deserve it and to get the right results, while secretly also enjoying it.

Okay, I don't really have a Problem with it as a Trope. I've more of a Problem that the Reaction to this Trope is often, that People are impressed by the "Atleast I admit it"-Character, because he is at least honest and no Hypocrite!

I am not impressed, because I see this as just another hypocritical way to pretend, that you are better than other People, who are doing the same despicable Thing. "Atleast I admit it" is just like "Atleast I do it, to do the right Thing" or "Atleast I don't do it to innocent People" just another Way, to convince yourself, that you're still somehow better, because you're more honest or something like that. Only that it is additionally also hypocritical, because you pretend to make no excuses, while using this Line like it is an excuse.

I also find it a little stupid, because the Character is on the inside exactly, what he is on the outside, while pretending to be deep.

[Mith]

I have no problems with such a character if they start there and grow from that starting point. That can be an interesting journey.

The flat characyers that do not change are not interesting though.

[The Aboleth]

It depends on the quality of writing and story-telling, obviously, but I think there can be a certain value in characters who take real responsibility for their actions and are honest about their intentions. A villain who declares "I am oppressing the kingdom because I want to be an oppressive ruler--because I desire power and this is the easiest way to achieve and maintain it!" is at least being honest with himself about his intentions. On the other hand, a villain who declares "I am not oppressing the kingdom--I am taking harsh steps to maintain security because it's what is best to ensure the safety of the citizens!" is likely either using that as an excuse to cover up his actual intentions, or has really deluded himself into believing he is taking the best course of action--a scenario which prevents him from taking any personal responsibility for his crimes.

One of the best lines I've ever heard from a character was in a video game series called "Legacy of Kain." In it, a character called Raziel is seeking out the titular Kain to exact vengeance upon him for his murder (Raziel became an undead soul-sucking wraith when Kain murdered him, and Kain is an immortal vampire, for context). Long story short, Raziel learns throughout the course of his quest that Kain made a decision eons ago that plunged the entire world into a state of decay and stagnation (the world started dying, basically). When Raziel finally confronts Kain face-to-face, he uses that as an excuse for why he wishes to kill Kain--"I need to kill you to restore the world!" Kain sees through this, though, and says:

"Hate me, but do it honestly."

That line always stuck with me. Raziel was hiding his bloodlust and vengeance behind altruistic motives, but Kain knows that when it boiled right down to it Raziel was just angry that Kain had murdered him. It was a powerful moment, because it forced Raziel to come to terms with his motives and choose whether the path he was on was really the one he wanted to take.

So, yes, I do believe there is value in a villain being honest with their desires and motives. There's also value in hiding villainous actions behind "good" intentions--as in most things, the value lies in the quality of the writing/characters.

[Lethologica]

In the Sandman comics, Lucifer gives up Hell and it ultimately winds up in the hands of a pair of un-fallen angels, Remiel and Duma. They resolve to change Hell so that the damned understand that their torment is punishment to reform their souls, rather than the product of malevolence. They think this will make Hell kinder. It has the opposite effect.

Another example is Xykon as a foil to Redcloak, the most direct illustration of which comes in Start of Darkness.

There's nothing about this trope that inherently makes the character performing it necessarily more or less hypocritical, more or less virtuous, more or less deep--that's all in the details. All it is, is the character acting as a foil to the anti-hero, well-intentioned extremist, oppressive government, "for your own good" abuser, or other character who commits evil acts without identifying as evil.

[DomaDoma]

"At least" honesty has a way of creating just enough smugness that one who espouses it (fictional characters included) doesn't consider that he might want to have something better to be honest about. When the author presents it as objectively better, rather than one of many intriguing angles regarding evil, it's quite indigestible. Especially when the thing they are denouncing as less honest is dishonest, or "dishonest" (because the author doesn't believe anything lofty is real), about much lesser crimes.

[2D8HP]

To clarify, what I mean, with "Atleast I admit it"-Characters: I mean Characters, who are ready to admit, that what they're doing is just evil...

.
While I've encountered men who make such claims IRL, but off the top of my head I can't think of a single fictional example that fits the trope you mentioned.

Who do you have in mind?

[Present 2.0]

You can find examples here.

[Reddish Mage]

As the examples above show. “At least I admit it” is a phrase most likely to be spewed by cliche “card-carrying” villains as a justification for their actions. In its most common form, its just a way for the cartoonishly evil villain to make an unconvincing swipe at the hero or the system.

However, being an “honest” evil-doer can be the defining trait of a villain, a redeemable villain or even a protagonist. “At least I admit it” comes in enough flavors that I can’t express feelings towards the trope without narrowing down some. Can you describe what’s getting your goat?

[Sapphire Guard]

Kain is a brilliant example, because it's perfectly in character for him to not be a fan of dishonesty, having had some bad experiences with manipulators. One of my other unrelated favourite moments is when he gets annoyed with being ordered around during the tutorial of one of his games, without breaking character or the fourth wall.

[Morty]

How many examples do we have of characters where it's an actual positive trait, rather than a self-serving platitude?

[Reddish Mage]

How many examples do we have of characters where it's an actual positive trait, rather than a self-serving platitude?

The Wiki article above has several examples: Loki during the "Vote Loki" story uses "At least I admit it" as his presidential campaign slogan. Spike says he's "love's bitch but at least I admit" in Season 3 to call out Buffy and Angel's relationship. Eustass Kid of One Piece likes the phrase. 3 Fingered Jack in "The Mask of Zorro" uses it to call out the villain. All of these expression appear in contexts that make their character seem more authentic and honesty a positive trait.

Lelouch of Code Geas doesn't actually use the phrase but his self-awareness is said to be what seperates him from Suzaku.

Most of the rest of the website's examples are basically paper-thin defenses delivered by true villains or accusations hurled at the hero that simple reveal how warped these villains perceptions of the world is.

[Lethologica]

How many examples do we have of characters where it's an actual positive trait, rather than a self-serving platitude?

For clarification: do you mean characters that genuinely own up to their evil ways and aren't just making excuses, or characters for whom being open about their evil ways is cast as a virtue?

[Aotrs Commander]

To clarify, what I mean, with "Atleast I admit it"-Characters: I mean Characters, who are ready to admit, that what they're doing is just evil. Often in Contrast to Characters, who don't admit it and think, that they're doing the right Thing or are allowed to do that. An Example would be a Villain, who tortures People just for Fun lecturing an Anti-Hero, who thinks, that he tortures only People who deserve it and to get the right results, while secretly also enjoying it.

Okay, I don't really have a Problem with it as a Trope. I've more of a Problem that the Reaction to this Trope is often, that People are impressed by the "Atleast I admit it"-Character, because he is at least honest and no Hypocrite!

I am not impressed, because I see this as just another hypocritical way to pretend, that you are better than other People, who are doing the same despicable Thing. "Atleast I admit it" is just like "Atleast I do it, to do the right Thing" or "Atleast I don't do it to innocent People" just another Way, to convince yourself, that you're still somehow better, because you're more honest or something like. Only that it is additionally also hypocritical, because you pretend to make no excuses, while using this Line like it is an excuse.

I also find it a little stupid, because the Character is on the inside exactly, what he is on the outside, while pretending to be deep.

No.

I basically AM one.

As the inverse is the sort of topic that gets me truly infuriated (I typed up a long, rant response this morning, but thought better about clicking "submit reply" for most of the day), it will suffice to say: basically what The Aboleth said, especially the part about using excuses to avoid taking responsibility for one's own actions.

(Trying to palm off responsibility for one's actions REALLY makes me loose my veneer of affability with extraordinary expediency.)

True Evil is, after all, when you you KNOW what you are doing is wrong, you understand fully the consequences of your actions, that you accept that you are objectively in the wrong by basically all standards - and you do it anyway.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think it's done well in the character of "the Operative" in Serenity. He fully admits to being a monster and understands that the world he is endeavoring to create has no place for someone like him.

[Present 2.0]

No.

I basically AM one.

I don't really understand, to what Parts you're answering with that.

Well, one Example of this Character, that I don't really like, is Xykon, but he's at least funny. But more often, it's not really the Characters, that I find infuriating, but the Fans, who believe these Characters.

[HandofShadows]

I usually don't like "At least I admit it" characters. It's clear that they know they are bad people and don't care. Worse some of them think they are *better* than other people because they admit they are bad.

There are exceptions of course. (Loki is a more a troll these days than a real evil character. A good example of this is that he poisoned his mother Frigga. But it was to save her from being killed. In one page he was pleading for her not to die.) A few characters like Lelouch and the Operative are exceptions because while they know they are doing horrible things it's not for themselves. They do horrible things for what they perceive as a greater good (right or wrong in this belief). Most "At least I admit it" characters don't do that or just pay lip service to the greater good.

[Vinyadan]

There is a difference between "at least I admit it" and "I gave up pretenses, because I like how I am, and you are an idiot for not doing the same, because _______".
I don't like the former much, but the latter can be good to explain the real difference between two villains, and make for a pretty cool dialogue. Possibly a bit better than I wrote it down.

[Aotrs Commander]

I don't really understand, to what Parts you're answering with that.

Evil and upfront about it.

[Lord Raziere]

Evil and upfront about it.

You don't seem evil to me. you just have that usual nerd persona of finding a lot of things idiotic, so you identify with intellect and smart decisions, which our culture somehow associates with supervillains and cackling evilly and having minions and whatnot. though such a persona is fun to pretend to, one admits.

[Vogie]

Most of the time, it's used as the sole amount of character development, and that's terrible. The Obviously Evil guy admits he's obviously evil instead of having a reason, then moonwalks backwards towards their evilness and hits the big red button.

Occasionally it is done well.

Root, from Person of Interest, is a very well-developed character that used this as their "first act" arc, and as a means to grow the other characters.
The Hound, Sandor Clegane, from Game of Thrones uses this argument against the Brotherhood without Banners... However, it's more of a call-out of how ridiculous the situation has gotten in Westeros, both politically & personally, than a big moment for him. He was always a cynic of the feudal system and the privilege it provides, so it's using the trope as an expression of that character, not as a crowning moment. He has plenty of those.

[Rater202]

I don't really understand, to what Parts you're answering with that.

The Commander, or Bleakbane. is one of two things:

1: Someone who is really, really, really dedicated to roleplaying the persona of an evil, Epic Space-Lich of high rank in the military of an Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empire that consists almost entirely of sapient Undead who self identity as Lawful Evil.

2: Actually the above.

People who have met him IRL aren't sure which.

[JDMSJR]

My experience with "At least I admit it" characters hasn't been so much them trying to justify themselves, or go "look how awesome I am" but more them being annoyed by the hypocrisy of another character who is trying to pretend that they are somehow better or more noble than the first character when they are essentially doing the same thing, but just want to think more highly of themselves.

[Aotrs Commander]

My experience with "At least I admit it" characters hasn't been so much them trying to justify themselves, or go "look how awesome I am" but more them being annoyed by the hypocrisy of another character who is trying to pretend that they are somehow better or more noble than the first character when they are essentially doing the same thing, but just want to think more highly of themselves.

Yes. This, basically.

[Reddish Mage]

There is a difference between "at least I admit it" and "I gave up pretenses, because I like how I am, and you are an idiot for not doing the same, because _______".
I don't like the former much, but the latter can be good to explain the real difference between two villains, and make for a pretty cool dialogue.

The latter is actually the most common reason villians respond to accusations of their evil-doing with "at least I admit it." Also, its commonly done in a spurious manner.

The "at least" portion is a thinly-veiled accusation that some hypocrit out there who is supposedly just as rotten as this guy but hides behind some form of legitimacy. Most of the time, its leveled against the hero. Most of the time, the hero is a genuinely great guy who doesn't deserve the accusation.

I picked out the outliers from the TV Tropes page above, the rest of the page is basically cartoonishly-evil villains doing this.

[Sapphire Guard]

I'm not sure the operative qualifies, he's still working on behalf of a greater good cause, he's just admitting that he doesn't deserve to benefit from his actions..

[Keltest]

I'm not sure the operative qualifies, he's still working on behalf of a greater good cause, he's just admitting that he doesn't deserve to benefit from his actions..

I would hardly describe what the Alliance does as a greater good. For them, maybe, but certainly not overall.

[Callos_DeTerran]

There is something to be said for being able to objectively look at your actions and knowing for a fact that what you are doing is morally wrong but you do it anyway. Doesn't matter why you do it, you do it anyway and accept the fact you've done the wrong thing no matter what gains you may get from doing it. It doesn't make the character right or anything, but it does make them honest and being honest is an admirable quality.

By the same token, there's something to be said for the same situation but doing it for 'the right reason' or otherwise justifying the action as something that needed to be done. Because then you create a scenario where you can seriously discuss about if it really was necessary and the character is guilty of it but still a decent person because of their intentions. Or create a scenario where you know the character is deluded but now you have to wonder if the person who did it deserves your pity even as you try to figure out what they deserve as punishment for their actions. What I dislike about that is fans who group together behind such characters and say they did nothing wrong or they were unconditionally right because they 'justified' their actions and believe that justification. That annoys the crap out of me and can ruin how I look at the character in the process.

So if a character is pulling a 'at least I admit it' and are correctly calling out another villain, character, or hero on their bull**** I don't really mind. If they're saying it pretty much to deflect blame away from themselves then I find it annoying.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'm not sure the operative qualifies, he's still working on behalf of a greater good cause, he's just admitting that he doesn't deserve to benefit from his actions..

I don't think why he does what he does matters in this context though. It's more like, Mal is refusing to admit that his kind (criminals and rebels) are bad and have to be stamped out, and Mal says "so me and mine have to die so you and yours can live?" and the Operative says no, he's a monster, there's no place for him there either. He's admitting that he too does not belong in the world they are trying to create.

I think maybe it doesn't qualify if the OP is strictly talking about the villain calling out heroes as hypocrites, because I don't think that's what the Operative is doing here.

[Metahuman1]

You don't seem evil to me. you just have that usual nerd persona of finding a lot of things idiotic, so you identify with intellect and smart decisions, which our culture somehow associates with supervillains and cackling evilly and having minions and whatnot. though such a persona is fun to pretend to, one admits.

Weirdly enough, I'm more or less inclined to agree up to a point. (And that point is the point were it also becomes a matter of being very much subjective.)

[Forum Explorer]

Not really. I mean if a trope is done poorly then that's always bad. But in other times, well the Villain calling someone out is right. Sometimes it's because they aren't as bad as the other party (the 'I may steal gold, but you steal entire lives' example), or because the other party is deluded and they aren't any better.

And that's nice when that happens.