Is Hexblade's Curse OP?

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Am I the only one that thinks that the curse ability hexblades get is op? At first level they get the curse ability where they can curse a single creature within 30ft for up to a minute and they get a bonus against that creature = to there proficiency modifier, they crit 19-20. and when the creature dies they gain health = to warlock level + cha modifier.

[Dalebert]

All you did was repeat the feature. What's your argument for why it's OP? I'm not necessarily disagreeing but you didn't actually make an argument.

[Talamare]

The heal?
Eh who cares

Being able to Crit on a 19-20, is pretty amazing
Dealing Bonus Damage that is higher than a Raging Barbarian is pretty insane!

but... it's only 1 target

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Oh yah sorry. It sounds OP to me and it was pretty good when I used it. It is similar to something high level rangers get. the main reason I made this post was (1 to see peoples opinion on this ability and (2 because the hexblade class in general seems op compared to others and I wanted to see who agrees.

[Dalebert]

(2 because the hexblade class in general seems op compared to others and I wanted to see who agrees.

Oh THAT I am inclined to agree with. If you look at them on the aggregate compared to other warlock archetypes they are very front-loaded--hexblade curse, medium armor & shields, use cha for weapon attacks. But this ability in isolation? It's nice but it's also 1/rest. And you gotta be careful about looking at an ability in a vacuum. ARchetypes are designed with all the features in mind. Some are are a little weak early on but get better things later or vice-versa for instance.

[ad_hoc]

Hexblade is ridiculously overpowered.

Both Curse and Medium Armour/Shields are better abilities than any of the other patrons get at 1st level. And Hexblade gets both.

[Skyblaze]

I would say its OP because of where it is in the warlock level placement. If it improved the curse over time, say 1st level the regain HP, lvl 10 you get the bigger crit range, and 14 you get the +proficiency mod to damage...that would be another thing. But you get all of it at level one, which is ridiculous.

[Asmotherion]

The real deal is using it together with hex. A lot of nova damage from level 1. Scales well with a hand crossbow at level 1 or magic stone.

It's the warlock class design to get synergy from spells and class abilities for stacking maximum damage output. That's how it works.

[the_brazenburn]

Hexblade is ridiculously overpowered.

Both Curse and Medium Armour/Shields are better abilities than any of the other patrons get at 1st level. And Hexblade gets both.

But now you're just proving the OP's point.

If Curse is better than any of the other 1st level patron abilities, then of COURSE it's overpowered!

[Vaz]

Am I the only one that thinks that the curse ability hexblades get is op? At first level they get the curse ability where they can curse a single creature within 30ft for up to a minute and they get a bonus against that creature = to there proficiency modifier, they crit 19-20. and when the creature dies they gain health = to warlock level + cha modifier.

No, they gain temp HP. So what?

Also I like how 'hit stuff' is now 'overpowered'. Ad_hoc, you consistently make me giggle. Where do you come uo with your jokes?

[Dudewithknives]

But now you're just proving the OP's point.

If Curse is better than any of the other 1st level patron abilities, then of COURSE it's overpowered!

Curse by itself being OP is debatable, Hexblade itself being OP is not.

[Mikal]

Hexblade curse is not OP
Hex Warrior is not OP
Hexblade is not OP

[Vaz]

Hexblade curse is not OP
Hex Warrior is not OP
Hexblade is not OP

Man knows 👌

[Finlam]

The real deal is using it together with hex. A lot of nova damage from level 1. Scales well with a hand crossbow at level 1 or magic stone.

It's the warlock class design to get synergy from spells and class abilities for stacking maximum damage output. That's how it works.

Since you only get 1 bonus action per turn, I don't think it's that big of a deal. It takes 2 turns to make this happen, you've just blown a spell slot and a short rest future, and it requires your concentration: getting 1d6 + prof extra damage on a hit seems like a fair trade since the +prof goes away when the target dies.

Also, the heal is amazing.

Let me reiterate: AM-AZ-ING

Since the curse does not require concentration, the heal can go off after you're unconscious. Short of a contingency, there is no other way in the game to bring yourself back up from unconsciousness. The best part is that your allies don't even have to revive you, they can optimize their actions by attacking enemies that they were already going to attack and then *boom* you're back on your feet.


The ability is OP because it has something really good for everyone: HP regain for tanking builds, extra crit and damage for strikers, and it does not compete with concentration. It would not be OP at level 10, maybe not at level 5 or 6, but at level 1 it is definitely OP.

[Vaz]

The hexblade heal isn't 'amazing'. It is giving you Temp HP, which puts you in line with Fighter HP AFTER you have killed something, with a max of +5HP.

[Provo]

Also, the heal is amazing.

Let me reiterate: AM-AZ-ING

Since the curse does not require concentration, the heal can go off after you're unconscious. Short of a contingency, there is no other way in the game to bring yourself back up from unconsciousness. The best part is that your allies don't even have to revive you, they can optimize their actions by attacking enemies that they were already going to attack and then *boom* you're back on your feet.

The lack of concentration IS strong.

However, the curse goes away when you are unconscious (the description of the curse explicitly states this)

[Skyblaze]

The hexblade heal isn't 'amazing'. It is giving you Temp HP, which puts you in line with Fighter HP AFTER you have killed something, with a max of +5HP.

Its not temp HP though, you regain HP.

"If the cursed target dies, you regain hit points equal
to your warlock level + your Charisma modifier (mini- mum of 1 hit point)."

As opposed to the fiend pack:

"Starting at 1st level, when you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points, you gain Temporary Hit Points equal to your Charisma modifier + your warlock level (minimum of 1)."

[Sception]

Not really? Again, until late levels it's only against a single enemy per rest. The damage bonus should probably scale with warlock level, instead of proficiency bonus, which scales with character level.

Hexblade looks weird, and becomes, arguably, way too dipable, not because any of its features are unreasonable compared to other non-warlock characters, but rather because it's both a fully functional warlock patron and a stealth fix to the blade pact at the same time, and due to the levels that patron features land on anyone can dip hexblade to get the fixed bladelock pact boon two levels before the boon itself.

It's ok as is, but if you're concerned about the balance of hexblades vs. other bladelocks and with the dippability of hexblade in general in games that allow multiclassing, then I'd recommend the following changes:

• Take hex warrior out of hexblade and add it to the level 3 pact of the blade feature. If you're doing this, you can make it apply to your pact blade only and not bother with the meditate on a weapon bit, but if you do that you might want to allow the pact blade itself to be summoned as a pair of matching light weapons for dual wielders, so you're not accidentally removing the ability to dual wield from the existing hexblade. Maybe make that part of the 'improved pact blade' invocation, along with the ability to make ranged weapons?
• Make the curse damage scale with warlock level. Easiest way to do that is to make it two damage at level 1, 4 damage with the second patron feature at level 6, and 6 damage with the final patron feature at level... 14, I think? This in addition to the other benefits.

A plain hexblade ends up about the same, at least from level 3 on. At levels 1 & 2, you're stuck blasting, but that's not that huge an inconvenience, imo. Especially for those who dip a level or two of fighter or paladin at the start of their build, as is already common regardless. Multiclassing bladelock is still strong for paladins & other cha gishes - as it should be since there's a good thematic fit there - but it requires a more substantial investment, and, as with pure bladelocks, you're free to choose patron for thematic rather than mechanical reasons (fiend for oathbreakers/tyrants, fey for ancients, etc). Bladelocks would get a real choice in patrons since they'll get medium armor and cha to melee attacks with their pact blades regardless of patron choice. Hexlocks, well, they don't have more choice in pact boons than they currently do, book and chain hexlocks are currently perfectly playable, but without hex warrior they're no longer pushed towards blade over the others. Probably rename and refluff the hexlock slightly for the same reason.

[Vaz]

Its not temp HP though, you regain HP.

"If the cursed target dies, you regain hit points equal
to your warlock level + your Charisma modifier (mini- mum of 1 hit point)."

As opposed to the fiend pack:

"Starting at 1st level, when you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points, you gain Temporary Hit Points equal to your Charisma modifier + your warlock level (minimum of 1)."

Oh wow, my bad. Conflating that and the spectres Temp HP after checking. Although that still doesn't change that you have to expend a short rest resource and have taken that damage to be on par (+/- spare change) with any other decent melee type in the game.

[Ganymede]

The Hexblade patron definitely gives a suite of abilities at first level that are clearly better than the other patrons. It's definitely better than the Great Old One, which only grants a ribbon, and the curse is arguably better than the features of the other two patrons.

I think this is because they used the Hexblade patron as a way to retrofit features for melee warlocks that should have already been a part of the pact weapon boon.

[rbstr]

On its own I think it's a pretty good feature. Proficiency to damage is dumb because of multi-classing but the actual damage added is fine.

The problem with the archetype is that it gets the curse and Martial Weapon, Armor and Shield proficiency.
Fey-locks get a one/rest one-round fear or charm. That is all. There's no and.

It's like this because they're probably as tired of "Blade Pact should give a **** load of extra features without cost" whines as I am so they gave up and just gave the Hexblade everything.

[SwordMeow]

Yes, hexblade is OP. It's a warlock that does more damage with eldritch blast and has better defenses.

[ad_hoc]

The main issue that people are having when looking at the abilities is comparing them to abilities that have more costs.

For example, comparing Hexblade's Curse to Hex. Hex requires a spell known, a spell slot, and concentration. There is no comparison.

Instead lets pretend the 1st level patron abilities are invocations. We will ignore cha to hit/dmg.

Medium Armour/Shields results in +5 AC - S tier
Hexblade's Curse 1/short rest damage boost plus almost guaranteed healing - S tier

Fiend THP on creature kill - Compare to False Life: False Life ensures THP at beginning of battle which is important and Fiend may not fire b/c character needs the kill. Is superior to False Life but ultimately a few HP isn't nearly as good as higher AC as monsters do more and more damage. I would rather Tomb of Levistus to get me out of hot water when I need it most. Fiend is better if campaign contains a lot of mooks. - A tier invocation

Telepathy - Utility/Theme invocation. I would probably rather 2 skills, disguise at will, etc. - C tier

frighten/charm 1 round - The issue here is the action to activate it. I would use it for free, but don't want to pay an invocation for it. - D tier


Even if I were to grant that Curse and Armour are both only A tier invocations, Hexblade gets both.

[sithlordnergal]

Hexblade can be OP, but it is not due to the curse ability alone. Rather, the OPness comes from the curse and the Spectre they get. And to give an example:

I recently played an AL Epic event, I forget the exact name of it but it happened in Port Nyanzaru. The Warlock managed to kill a Humanoid and get a Spectre during tbe first mission. Seeing as you can't take long rests during an Epic, the Spectre stayed with us for the rest of the Epic. And it trivialized 2-3 of quests in an epic with only 5 quests.

In one quest, we had to sneak into a house to steal documents without being caught. A wizard used Arcane Eye to scout the house without being seen, then the Spectre used it's ability to fly through walls to easily grab what we needed. We literally finished the quest in less then 10 rounds.

In another quest the same thing happened. We were faced with a hallway thay had traps in it, so the Spectre went through the walls totally unaffected by the traps to disarm them for us and open the door.

In the third quest we needed to murder a minotaur pirate champion and rescue a halfling or something like that. We sent in a Quetzalquoalt that was immune to non-magical weapons to do the fighting, and had the Spectre float in and save the halfling since it could float through walls and open the doors and windows for the halfling to escape.

[Citan]

I would say its OP because of where it is in the warlock level placement. If it improved the curse over time, say 1st level the regain HP, lvl 10 you get the bigger crit range, and 14 you get the +proficiency mod to damage...that would be another thing. But you get all of it at level one, which is ridiculous.

I wouldn't have said better. :)

[Snowbluff]

The main issue that people are having when looking at the abilities is comparing them to abilities that have more costs.

For example, comparing Hexblade's Curse to Hex. Hex requires a spell known, a spell slot, and concentration. There is no comparison.

Instead lets pretend the 1st level patron abilities are invocations. We will ignore cha to hit/dmg.

Medium Armour/Shields results in +5 AC - S tier
Hexblade's Curse 1/short rest damage boost plus almost guaranteed healing - S tier

Fiend THP on creature kill - Compare to False Life: False Life ensures THP at beginning of battle which is important and Fiend may not fire b/c character needs the kill. Is superior to False Life but ultimately a few HP isn't nearly as good as higher AC as monsters do more and more damage. I would rather Tomb of Levistus to get me out of hot water when I need it most. Fiend is better if campaign contains a lot of mooks. - A tier invocation

Telepathy - Utility/Theme invocation. I would probably rather 2 skills, disguise at will, etc. - C tier

frighten/charm 1 round - The issue here is the action to activate it. I would use it for free, but don't want to pay an invocation for it. - D tier


Even if I were to grant that Curse and Armour are both only A tier invocations, Hexblade gets both.

The obvious answer is that the other patrons are kinda garbage and undertuned. .-.

[ad_hoc]

The obvious answer is that the other patrons are kinda garbage and undertuned. .-.

Given:

1) The Warlock balance is just fine
2) Not all subclasses from all classes need to be balanced to each other
3) The Warlock subclass is split into patron and pact

It's just fine for the patrons to be on the weak side. Same with the pacts.

[prototype00]

Is it not conversely fine for some patrons to be stronger then? Like the Fiend?

[ad_hoc]

Is it not conversely fine for some patrons to be stronger then? Like the Fiend?

I think the Fiend is in the window of acceptable higher strength. Would it be great if they were closer in balance to one another? Sure. At the same time, as the patrons (until now) didn't have that much power, having a stronger patron only made a small difference in the class powers overall.

This wasn't an Open Hand, Shadow, 4 Elements situation. Hexblade now makes every other patrons look like 4 Elements in comparison.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

On a slightly different note what are some ideal races for a hexblade. I have a tiefling. Are there any better ones?