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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Okay, so, thinking about it, I think we're looking at a very interesting interaction between two, very different types of filmmakers.


    JJ Abrahms LOVES Star Wars. He's also a big fan of The Mystery Box, building hype around "Mysteries", where the answer is less important than the audience asking the question.


    RoTJ ends with the Empire defeated, the Republic Reborn, and Luke, having emerged as a fully-fledged Jedi, ready to rebuild the mythic order of Jedi Knights. Han Solo has gone from scoundrel to War Hero. Leia is forever Leia. The story of The Rebellion vs The Empire had ended.


    But, Rebellion vs The Empire IS Star Wars, and JJ Abrams LOVES Star Wars. So, TFA was a deeply regressive film, mostly interested in recreating the same dynamics of the original trilogy.

    Luke's New Jedi Order? Gone. The only remaining Jedi is a space hermit. The Republic that they fought so hard to Rebuild? Impotent to the point of Irrelevance until it gets destroyed by the New Empire's New Superweapon. Han Solo? Back to being a scoundrel with a ton of enemies.

    The Emperor? Well, now there's a NEW EMPEROR. He's even BIGGER and MORE DEFORMED than the last one! JJ Abrahms got to make HIS Version of Star Wars! Because, to him (And a lot of people), Star Wars was Rebellion vs Empire.
    The way TFA ended, The Last Jedi Could have been a Shot-for-Shot remake of Empire Strikes Back, because they ended in basically the exact same way.

    Now, that isn't to say everything is exactly the same, and JJ Abrahms packed a lot of those differences away in The Mystery Box. Who are Rey's Parents? Where did Snoke come from? Who is this Kylo Ren Guy anyway? A lot of "Why is this not just A New Hope" is hidden away as a "Big Secret" to be revealed later.

    (Personally, I actually really like Kylo Ren as Cosplay Darth Vader.)

    But, The Mystery Box isn't about answers. It's not a storytelling technique, it's a marketing technique.

    So, He got to make his Star Wars, and then he handed the movie off to Rian Johnson.
    Spoiler
    Show

    And Rian Johnson had ZERO interest in answering any of the questions JJ Abrahms left behind, because the Mystery Box isn't about Answers. In The Mystery Box, giving answers is a chore, something you have to do because you asked the questions.

    He's also actually interested in moving the story forwards. The Rebellion is now down to a handful, the Empire may still be strong, but they're now led by an emotionally compromised, headstrong idiot.
    Whatever Rey is, she's not going to be a Jedi.


    And I don't think either approach is necessarily a BAD one (Although, I'm a bit more partial to Johnson's). But, they don't work especially well TOGETHER. You're not wrong if you are upset about the big questions being tossed aside, because The Force Awakens put a lot of work into getting you invested in those very same questions.
    Agreed. A lot of the complaints about TLJ are actually about the TFA mystery boxes, and how there's no payoff for them. I compare it to the forum game "three word story" where the forum wrotes a "story" three words at a time. The results are hilariusly bad, and we see the same effect with the director jump.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    A legitimate criticism of then film would be "I think the casino in space scene went on a little longer than it needed to". Fanboy hang up would be "BUT WHY IS REY'S PARENTS NOT IMPORTANT????".

    One is a genuine criticism that I ultimately disagree with, the other is a genuine misunderstanding of the entire point of the film.
    The film doesn't just tell us Rey's parent's aren't important in passing, it spends lots of time and effort to build it up as a mystery of great importance to Rey, Luke, Kylo...up until Kylo reveals the great insight...Rey's parents are nobodies and it doesn't matter. Then it takes us back to stuff exploding and "laser swords."

    Quote Originally Posted by JBPuffin View Post
    You're sure that wasn't just a taunt? I'm pretty sure it's just a taunt, and IX will tell us how they're actually important.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    It wasnt just a taunt. It's a "ANYONE could be a history-altering "Great Man" no matter their humble origins" story that has to play off JJ's mystery box with "Rey has been obsessing over this the same way the audience has. Really, there's nothing here, and she knows it."
    As much as I find Kylo to be a unreliable source of information, especially as he delivered it with a self-serving spin, Rey coming from humble origins plays right into the "entire point of the film."

    Rakaydos just explicates what the point is.

    However, taking issue with Rey's parents not mattering is not a matter of misunderstanding the film, its a matter of understanding exactly what the film is doing, and realizing what its doing is systematically undermining and demeaning Star Wars.

    Its not just that Rey has no parents. The Jedi religion has nothing to contribute, the heroes need to learn to stop being so heroic, and the audience needs to forget their expectations for a powerful villain, or that Force skills require training, or for that matter that knowledge requires exposure to books. By the way you can also hack computer systems with bits of metal and its not strange that a lone starfighter or saltfighter can stare straight down on a massive fleet.

    In nearly every way this movie can, it throws out the old rules, burns them (sometimes literally), and gives us nothing in its place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    The themes of this film are very muddled

    Spoiler
    Show
    Finn and Poe's attempts at sacrifices to same lives -bad.

    Holdo and Luke's sacrifices to save lives- good.

    The theme is about saving over destroying...except that virtually nobody is saved. Every attempt to save lives results in more deaths of the people they're trying to save.

    Attempts made at equivalence between the sides making arms dealers rich...except that the New Republic mothballed their army as soon as they could, and the Resistance is not particularly well armed, it's a huge plot point how outgunned they are.

    You don't need to be Skywalkers to be special...which was always true in the first place, but is presented here as something rebellious and revolutionary.

    Anakin was the chosen one... and he failed. Repeatedly and hard. He lost to Dooku, hard. Lost to Obi Wan, hard. Lost to Luke. Yet the new films are pretending that the old theme was that only Skywalkers can be special, and that its revolutionary that Force users are constantly born across the universe...when that was always the case anyway.

    Anakin, chosen one born from the force, needed extensive training to be able to be able to put it to use against other Force users. With incomplete training, his first battle loses him a hand.

    With even more training, he loses to Obi Wan and nearly dies.

    Luke went off with incomplete training... and his first battle loses him a hand to Vader.

    The Skywalker bloodline was never the automatic route to greatness that these films are pretending it was so they can reject it.

    However, every film before TFA, over and over again, stressed the idea that extensive training was necessary to be effective with the Force, even for the Chosen One.

    Rey gets exactly one lesson in this film and otherwise teaches herself. She seems to be even more chosen by the force that the character actually called the Chosen One in universe.

    The new films are presenting the old ones as something they never were in order to edgily reject them for rebellion cred.

    Which is especially notable when Disney revived a completed franchise to make a movie about how wars between good and evil will keep happening as long as they're profitable.


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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    The film doesn't just tell us Rey's parent's aren't important in passing, it spends lots of time and effort to build it up as a mystery of great importance to Rey, Luke, Kylo...up until Kylo reveals the great insight...Rey's parents are nobodies and it doesn't matter. Then it takes us back to stuff exploding and "laser swords."





    As much as I find Kylo to be a unreliable source of information, especially as he delivered it with a self-serving spin, Rey coming from humble origins plays right into the "entire point of the film."

    Rakaydos just explicates what the point is.

    However, taking issue with Rey's parents not mattering is not a matter of misunderstanding the film, its a matter of understanding exactly what the film is doing, and realizing what its doing is systematically undermining and demeaning Star Wars.

    Its not just that Rey has no parents. The Jedi religion has nothing to contribute, the heroes need to learn to stop being so heroic, and the audience needs to forget their expectations for a powerful villain, or that Force skills require training, or for that matter that knowledge requires exposure to books. By the way you can also hack computer systems with bits of metal and its not strange that a lone starfighter or saltfighter can stare straight down on a massive fleet.

    In nearly every way this movie can, it throws out the old rules, burns them (sometimes literally), and gives us nothing in its place.
    In a way, it's repeating the sins of TFA, just in a different manner.

    TFA set up some big Mysteries that it wasn't interested in answering. TLJ didn't care to answer them.

    It's still asking Questions, some very good ones at that. If the answer ISN'T High-risk heroic solo missions, bringing back the Jedi Religion, and hitting things with lightsabers, then what IS the answer? Where do we go from here?

    And, I don't think we're going to get a good answer to any of those questions in Episode IX, because JJ Abrahms probably isn't any more interested in answering those questions than Rian Jhonson was in answering the questions JJ Abrams left behind. Rey is going to rebuild a lightsaber and call herself a Jedi. Poe is going to jump into an X-Wing and blow something up at a crucial moment. Finn is probably going to risk everything on a commando raid of some sort. They'll rebuild a fleet of cruisers and X-Wings, ect ect.


    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Anakin was the chosen one... and he failed. Repeatedly and hard. He lost to Dooku, hard. Lost to Obi Wan, hard. Lost to Luke. Yet the new films are pretending that the old theme was that only Skywalkers can be special, and that its revolutionary that Force users are constantly born across the universe...when that was always the case anyway.

    Anakin, chosen one born from the force, needed extensive training to be able to be able to put it to use against other Force users. With incomplete training, his first battle loses him a hand.

    With even more training, he loses to Obi Wan and nearly dies.

    Luke went off with incomplete training... and his first battle loses him a hand to Vader.


    [/spoiler]
    On the specific front of Lightsaber Skills.
    Rey clearly has some combat skill (with her Staff). She has two lightsaber fights. One against an injured, emotionally distraught Kylo Ren. The other is against presumably well-trained guards who are not Force-Adepts.

    If we assume that force powers give you a pretty substantial edge in close quarters combat (enhanced reflexes, limited precognition, whatever), I don't think we have an equivalent to Anakin vs Dooku, Anakin vs Obi-Wan, or Luke vs Vader. Those were all a less-experienced Force User vs a more experienced force user in the prime of their power.

    Let's be generous here, and say that her life on Jaaku gave Rey exceptional training with armed melee combat (Staff), and that some of that transfers over to using a Lightsaber. So, we have a less experienced Force Adept beating a badly injured, more experienced Force Adept, and a less-experienced Force Adept beating several more experienced mundane fighters.

    There's other things that could be said about Rey using Force-powers untrained, but I don't think the lightsaber fights are much evidence in that direction.
    Last edited by BRC; 2017-12-19 at 02:03 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The themes of this film are very muddled
    Im in exact agreement. They misrepresent the past, and then set themselves up as smarter for overcoming it (Whilst also wallowing in it).

    It almost feels like a complete inditement of modern times in a way.
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    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    So, seems like this is a nice place full of balanced arguments. Time to force the internet to endure my opinion as though it mattered.

    I saw it. I thought it was great. Far and away better than TFA. I've basically said, TFA is what happens when you sit someone down and say "Make the most generic Star Wars story ever told." That's pretty much what you'd get. You'd have the Empire back for no reason. You'd have a new force-sensitive kid. You'd blow up another Death Star. Yeah.

    Last Jedi took a hell of a lot of risks, and not all of them worked. But enough did that I enjoyed the experience and surprisingly few of my predictions of what was going to happen actually happened.

    I have seen a lot of Star Wars media, and a hell of a lot more that follows the Lucas guidelines on how to do a Hero's Journey. So watching a movie try to do something different while still paying homage to the old plotting techniques was a breath of fresh air.

    And of course, when risks get taken and things don't go the way people believe they are promised, others will find this frustrating. I understand the criticism. Don't agree, but I understand it.

    Spoiler
    Show

    So, I'll go over what I liked.

    1) Getting Snoke out of the way. When I saw Snoke in TFA my initial reaction wasn't "Oh, look at this cool old guy, I wonder about his backstory and how he came into power." It was "Oh... they're doing the Emperor again. Why the Hell are they doing the Emperor again? We saw the Emperor. We saw the Emperor's backstory and it was ****. Do something new."

    So getting him out of the way to start focusing on the actual new interesting dark side force user was great. And something I did not see coming. And having no sources of information about the character, except the two movies, we already kind of know enough about him for him to fulfill his purpose in the plot. He's a powerful, probably ancient dark side force user, that appeared after Luke started training new Jedi. Saw the dark side potential in Ben as an apprentice, and fed it to make him a tool for his own ascension as new overlord of the galaxy. Done. That's all we need to know. Whether he was an Inquisitor or some evil sorcerer from the Unknown Regions, or the reborn Exar Khun. It doesn't actually matter for the story of Ben and Rey, which this trilogy is shaping up to be.

    2) Rey's parents are nobodies. Thank you. This is great to me honestly. Further enforces the notion that bloodlines shouldn't actually mean anything, which comes back at the end of the movie with the kid and his broom. Anyone can be a hero. Way better than the theories floating around that she was Anakin reborn, or Luke's daughter, or Obi-wan's great-great-twice-removed grand niece or whatever.

    Unfortunately, that revelation is still somewhat muddled by the fact that there is still some seemingly heartless random manipulator that gets to pick who gets to be force sensitive and who doesn't. That's a sadly unavoidable problem as soon as you add the divine to any medium. As soon as your God, or Force, or whatever can take an active hand in the setting, as the Force clearly does, then ultimately it gets to decide potential. Of course, you don't need Force powers to be a hero, which we already saw with Han, and now Finn, Rose, and Poe. Sadly their storyline is the weakest of the bunch in this movie. But I'll get to that later.

    3) Kylo is still great. I think I was one of the only people who would have answered "what was your favorite part of TFA" with Kylo. Yep. He's a whiny self-absorbed Darth Vader wannabe. And I love that. Scratch the surface of any Sith and you get a crying child about how life's unfair. Vader kept an aura of cool and aloof and being a violent murder machine, but he was only an interesting character and not just a cool looking stage piece once they added the Skywalker connection and potential sources of emotional turmoil and conflict in ESB and RotJ.

    So many people seem to just want more Darth Vader. And sure, I get that, and that's why I read the Vader comics (which are awesome by the way) but we already have Darth Vader. Why do we need another Darth Vader? Hell, we already have Darth Vader, Darth Malgus, Darth Marak, Darth Krayt, Darth Bane, Jacen Solo, and Ulic Qel-Droma. We do not need another Sith who happens to check all of Vader's boxes while the writer and audience just sort of acknowledge that we're doing Vader again without actually saying we're doing Vader again. Then comes this kid who is clearly obsessively trying to be Vader that it's a plot point, and just falls on his face. And man do I love it. He was the only interesting thing in the last movie.

    And he was interesting in this one, as well. We get to see his exact moment of fall, which makes sense in his head. He already had the call of the Dark Side in him, probably from Snoke's manipulations (since we know Snoke can do funky force stuff involving altering people's minds). We get to see his struggle with living up to the expectations of his fathers and how he ultimately rebels against all three of them (Han, Luke, and Snoke). We see his ambition and the tension between him and Rey works fairly well. Snoke connecting their minds to play upon both of their weaknesses only for Kylo to then use Snoke's own powers against him was pretty great. I also rather enjoyed the following fight scene.

    Now we get to see that completely out of his depth child in command of the empire in a way that Vader never was. And it did not disappoint. Constantly using his authority to direct military supplies away from real objectives to assuage his petty vendettas. He's a bully and a hurt child, not a military leader.

    4) Luke was fantastic. It actually played with his character flaws. In the original trilogy, Luke is a pretty flawed character. Impetuous, kind of self-centered, and constantly in over his head, but you don't really get the idea that the movie understands his flaws. We got Yoda pointing them out in ESB, but even then it felt more like lip service. This movie put them on full display. Also, some of the best acting Hamill has done in years. Great job Mr. J. I also really loved that the entire Luke/Rey plotline was an inversion of the standard Hero's Journey. Usually, the hero (Rey) refuses the call, meets the mentor, agrees to the call, yadda yadda we all know what a Hero's Journey is. Occasionally there's like a mini-arc where the mentor needs convincing to actually become the mentor.

    In this, the entire hero arc is given to the mentor. It's not perfect, the failed tests section happens in flashback during the section it should happen in front of you. But really, amazingly done. It also gave a very important voice to the Jedi detractors, The Jedi himself. Let's be clear, the Jedi were a ridiculously flawed institution. And, much like Luke himself, we get the idea from watching the Prequels that Lucas doesn't actually see the flaws. They were just the good guys.

    But we all saw the flaws. Hell, I've had debates about how idiotic some of the old Jedi Order's stances were and how dumb they had to be to use the clones in the first place and do not see the betrayal coming. So to have Luke proclaim the Jedi Order as blatantly flawed as they clearly have an interesting side of the argument on the screen. This realization along with his understanding of his own moral failings when he was tempted to kill his own nephew (even if he wouldn't do it), plus the utter loss his failings resulted in, I can definitely see why he took his next step: He went and found the Sacred Jedi Texts. He went back to the origins to try and find a solution to the problem, and when he found nothing that would solve the intrinsic problems of the Jedi, he hermitted himself.

    And then, when he does finally get his act together and goes to save the day. Hot damn that sequence was just amazing. Luke Skywalker is the symbol of hope for the galaxy. Still a man, still flawed. But there he was, facing down the entire First Order. I was grinning like an idiot watching that sequence. Luke stepping up as the Jedi Master we all want him to be, tricking the entire galaxy to save the heroes, sow dissension among the villains, and inspire the next generation of freedom fighters. That's a way to send off a character.


    But this is the internet, and I definitely don't think this movie was flawless. Better than TFA and the prequels, but not ANH or ESB territory.

    1) The First Order is problematic. I think I understand what they're trying to do. The Empire was always just an expy of fascism drawing mostly from Nazi Germany. And with the whole next generation thing, I think they're trying to show with Hux's bluster and constant reminders he's an angry dog, that these aren't German Nazis anymore they're closer to our own modern day Neo-Nazi's with the angry shouting and the stupid looks. However, that doesn't really work. Because modern Neo-Nazis aren't really a military threat, they're at most a mob. So taking a Neo-Nazi giving them a Nazi uniform and putting them in charge of the actual Nazi Army doesn't fit. I'm of course talking about Hux. The movie seems to constantly make him the butt of jokes, from the very first scene of the movie to the last. Even the chance to reveal he actually had a decent military plan (at least for Star Wars) was undercut by Snoke throwing him around like a ragdoll. The sad thing is, the actor does a fine job pulling off every emotion the director is giving him. From apoplectic rage to sniveling sycophant to fear and indignation. He's fine, but the character just cannot be taken seriously as a threat.

    Which is sad, because a different character in that position actually would make better tension. I joked when I watched the first movie that Hux's character would be better if he was blue, with red eyes, and spoke calmer. And, honestly, I think that holds even truer now. Having a professional military to act as a counterpoint to the narcissism of Snoke and Kylo would have made better tension, even in the last scene. I have a feeling that the "mad dog" is going to have some sort of a payoff in the final movie. But honestly, the damage is done. I can't take him seriously as a threat anymore.

    2) The stranded rebellion. So of all the plotlines in the movie, the Finn/Rose/Poe story is the worst. The message that beyond the fighting the true evil is societal forces and people that gain off of exploitation and violence is a good one. Honestly, probably the most mature message ever in a Star Wars movie. Unfortunately, the story around the message was pretty dull. Now the kids telling stories about Luke's courage and having the stories influence their own morals and ideals was brilliant. Hell, even the reveal that the Admiral who was played by that lady from Jurassic Park with the hair was actually smart is great. Completely changes what we think was going to happen. Hell, even having the heroes being the reason the plan fails is good. Heroes should be wrong more. The problem came from the setup. So, Admiral Jurassic Park could have solved this whole problem by whispering to Poe that they have cloaking on the transports. But, even ignoring that, the trip to Casino Planet wasn't interesting.

    I don't care about Finn and Rose. Finn, to me, was the biggest failure of a character from TFA, and this movie did nothing to change my opinion. Here's a man who was a stormtrooper, who betrayed the First Order. That's awesome. That's a new way to look at the setting. There's tension when we see these Troopers are actual humans, worse, they're child slaves. Finn didn't even have a name. Wow, that's awesome. I wonder where they'll take this thread? Nowhere. In TFA there is nothing to show that Finn is any of those things other than having occasional helpful knowledge. That holds true here. Finn's pretty much a failed experiment at this point. Other than her initial great introduction, I couldn't tell you much about Rose other than she's a mouthpiece about oppression, and spelling out the themes for the audience.

    Even when I like the themes they're trying to go for, the whole sequence just is dumb. They could have gotten away with their hacker if they just parked somewhere normal. That was their whole problem. And then, when they can't get their hacker they just get another hacker anyway. And then after they cause all the problems that basically got the entire Rebellion killed, there is no scene to show them regret their decisions. Having flawed characters fail, that's fine. Having your protagonists cause more harm than good, that's fine. But then not taking the time to explore what that failing means to them is the problem. It just makes them seem inhuman. Sure my idiocy just killed everyone I know and may have doomed my entire cause. But I'm not going to acknowledge it and everyone is still going to like me. Yeehaw!

    3) The humor. I touched on this one already, when talking about Hux. But it bears repeating, humor is a powerful tool for a movie to warp our opinions of characters and events. Need to let off a little steam after a very tense sequence? Tell a joke. Want the audience to immediately see a character as unimportant? Make him a joke. They don't even really have to be good jokes (though admittedly good is better), but the existence of them helps to set our emotional balance in a place better to be affected by the next tense or dramatic scene.

    This movie has a problem understanding which jokes should have been left on the cutting room floor. Clearly turning Hux into a joke was one. But the other big one, to me, where those damn gerbil penguins. **** them. They were fine, not great, but fine on the planet with Luke and Rey. They added some humor while we mulled over the latest sequence of Luke or the rebels in whatever bad situation they were in. Hell, I even gave a quiet "heh" at the scene where Chewie was gonna eat one of them. But in the final fight sequence? When tension supposed to be at the highest? When we should be at the edge of our seats completely caught up in the experience? That's when you cut to these damn gerbil-penguins mugging at the camera three times in a row? Who thought that was a good idea? How? God that pissed me off.

    4) The mixed message about personal sacrifice. The movie tries to take an actually kind of interesting point that suicidal sacrifice is ultimately counterproductive and a bit of a stupid way to run a war. Or at least, morally problematic. Poe gets yelled at for sacrificing all bombers to destroy the dreadnaught. Rose gives her big speech to Finn, which was the culmination of their arc in this movie about how we win by defending our friends and loved ones not by trying to get ourselves killed. Yeah, ok. I can see how society needs to stop romanticizing death. I don't 100% agree when looked at from a totally militaristic point of view. But whatever, I'm willing to see how this plays out. Only, the two biggest moments of the film were about heroes self-sacrifice. Admiral Jurassic Park's hyperdrive suicide run and Luke's confrontation with Kylo. They've muddled their own message, and in doing that they call into question the whole big speech with Rose. And since I've already said how much I don't like the Rose/Finn plot, I think having even further outside forces pointing that the revelation of their story arc is wrong is just another problem that this film doesn't need.

    5) Where they go from here. So this isn't a point against the movie, so much as me dreading what's happening next. I don't trust Abrams to follow this up with anything original. But even worse than that. If the next movie forces me to sit through a tangled love rhombus where Finn and Kylo love Rey, but Rose and Rey are in love with Finn. And Rey doesn't know what to do. Then I will punch someone.

    Thank you, Dianekes. I'm glad you enjoyed it!

    It's interesting to me that the part you single out the most as worthy of praise is also the same thing that the harsher critics also liked -- the three way dynamic between Luke, Rey, and Kylo. You both saw the same good points and the same flaws.

    I suppose what will spoil a movie for one person won't for another. Takes all kinds, I suppose.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Opportunities to do good are everywhere but the darkness is where the light needs to be".

    -- Eliezer Yudkowski, author of "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    I find the idea that anyone who dislikes TLJ is an overreacting fan-boy to be odd.

    My favorite Star Wars films are Rogue One and Attack of the Clones.
    My least favorite film is Empire Strikes back.
    Of all the protagonists in the original trilogy C3PO is the only one I remotely like.
    I have never consumed any expanded universe media except for KOTOR.
    I disagree with the rebellion, the republic, and the Jedi on a moral and philosophical level and always route for the bad guys.
    I am a Trekkie for crying out loud.

    And I still think TLJ failed on almost every level.

    As a standalone movie it ranges from poor to mediocre. It has a few good bits, mostly comedy, and the first act is pretty strong, but for the most part the movie is just long, muddled, and forgettable.

    As the second part of a trilogy it is an utter failure. It spends an inordinate amount of time actively pissing on the first installment, does not run with any of the themes or plot elements of the original, and does nothing to set up for or build suspense for part 3.

    As part of a franchise it is just baffling. Disney just spent billions of dollars buying the IP, they have three more SW movies currently in production and another trilogy planned after that as well as a TV show and who knows what else. Why would they already be doing a hardcore deconstruction of the franchise and its fans? If they felt they needed to move away from Star Wars why use the Star Wars brand to do it? Why not just put their Disney dollars and the minds behind the MCU into making a new original SF series? Its almost like they looked at Batman vs. Superman, ignored all of the responses to it, and said "Yep, a deconstruction of a beloved franchise is a GREAT way to revive it for the big screen! Get right on that!".


    The best I can figure is that the studio saw all the complaints of TFA being a retread of ANH and overcorrected a little too hard. Hopefully EP IX will find a proper balance.


    Edit: Oh, and I roll my eyes at anyone who brings up the "Rey is a Mary Sue," and all of the verboten baggage that comes with it, so that's not where I am coming from either.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2017-12-19 at 02:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Its not just that Rey has no parents. The Jedi religion has nothing to contribute, the heroes need to learn to stop being so heroic, and the audience needs to forget their expectations for a powerful villain, or that Force skills require training, or for that matter that knowledge requires exposure to books. By the way you can also hack computer systems with bits of metal and its not strange that a lone starfighter or saltfighter can stare straight down on a massive fleet.

    In nearly every way this movie can, it throws out the old rules, burns them (sometimes literally), and gives us nothing in its place.
    "Organized religion is prone to abuse, but dont let that shake your faith in [deity]"
    "Not every moment needs a hero... Know when to hold-em and when to fold-em."
    Kylo's arc is great. Rey stole the jedi books, possibly early enough to train herself. Physical access is the greatest weakness of computer security. Poe is a hero (again, in a situation that doesnt need heros, which he learns in time to call off the saltspeeeder attack)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    A legitimate criticism of then film would be "I think the casino in space scene went on a little longer than it needed to". Fanboy hang up would be "BUT WHY IS REY'S PARENTS NOT IMPORTANT????".

    One is a genuine criticism that I ultimately disagree with, the other is a genuine misunderstanding of the entire point of the film.
    So what am I genuinely misunderstanding? That you don't have to be special? Since when did you have to be special? A lot of people are involved in the events of the original trilogy. Leia starts us off by making the plot even remotely possible, and not because she's a Skywalker, but rather because she believes in the resistance and has the courage to use her position to aid it. Obi-Wan then decides to bring Luke along with him. Luke makes many choices along the way that impact the plot, sometimes for the worse. If Han hadn't had a change of heart, Vader would have destroyed Luke on the surface of the Death Star, good by happy ending.

    So what am I misunderstanding? Please explain. I find the accusations of fanboyism entirely lazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    So what am I genuinely misunderstanding? That you don't have to be special? Since when did you have to be special? A lot of people are involved in the events of the original trilogy. Leia starts us off by making the plot even remotely possible, and not because she's a Skywalker, but rather because she believes in the resistance and has the courage to use her position to aid it. Obi-Wan then decides to bring Luke along with him. Luke makes many choices along the way that impact the plot, sometimes for the worse. If Han hadn't had a change of heart, Vader would have destroyed Luke on the surface of the Death Star, good by happy ending.

    So what am I misunderstanding? Please explain. I find the accusations of fanboyism entirely lazy.
    The Original Trilogy, in Isolation, does very little to imply that Being a Skywalker makes you Special.

    We learn that Luke is a Skywalker at the end of the second movie, we learn that Leia is a skywalker in the third (IIRC). Luke's connection to vader lets him redeem Vader at the end, and win the fight against the Emperor, and while that's personally quite significant, the Death Star would have been blown up regardless (Vader and Palpatine might have escaped, but nothing that happened in the throne room had any impact on the fight outside).


    It's the Prequel Trilogy that set up Anakin as The Chosen One, birthed via Immaculate Conception by the Force itself, implying Specialness to his bloodline, and recontextualizing the first movie. Luke isn't just a Jedi, he's not just the son of Darth Vader, or The Pilot that destroyed the Death Star, he's a Skywalker!

    The Force Awakens, by making Rey's parentage a big mystery, also played into the idea that Special People are from Special Families, and the Skywalkers are the only Special Force Family in canon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    So what am I genuinely misunderstanding? That you don't have to be special? Since when did you have to be special? A lot of people are involved in the events of the original trilogy. Leia starts us off by making the plot even remotely possible, and not because she's a Skywalker, but rather because she believes in the resistance and has the courage to use her position to aid it. Obi-Wan then decides to bring Luke along with him. Luke makes many choices along the way that impact the plot, sometimes for the worse. If Han hadn't had a change of heart, Vader would have destroyed Luke on the surface of the Death Star, good by happy ending.

    So what am I misunderstanding? Please explain. I find the accusations of fanboyism entirely lazy.
    That Rey, raised an orphan, dreams of having parents. Who were they? Are they awesome?

    For any orphan, the answer to that question is almost ALWAYS disapointment. Blaming the movie for getting us to empathize with that is out of place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    The Original Trilogy, in Isolation, does very little to imply that Being a Skywalker makes you Special.

    We learn that Luke is a Skywalker at the end of the second movie, we learn that Leia is a skywalker in the third (IIRC). Luke's connection to vader lets him redeem Vader at the end, and win the fight against the Emperor, and while that's personally quite significant, the Death Star would have been blown up regardless (Vader and Palpatine might have escaped, but nothing that happened in the throne room had any impact on the fight outside).


    It's the Prequel Trilogy that set up Anakin as The Chosen One, birthed via Immaculate Conception by the Force itself, implying Specialness to his bloodline.
    Going to disagree. IIRC, most of the characters in the OOT, from Obi-wan to Yoda to Darth Vader and the Emperor, all referred to "destiny". If you have destiny, it follows that you have been chosen to do a specific thing. Everyone who has a destiny has been specially chosen to fulfill it.

    Whether everyone has a destiny, or only specific individuals (as in Erfworld) was never spelled out. The point is, though, you can't have destiny without something very like both prophecy and fate. Which means not everyone in the GFFA is an equal. Some, at least, are specially marked out as chosen to fulfill a specific task. Which sounds very divine right of kings-ish.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Going to disagree. IIRC, most of the characters in the OOT, from Obi-wan to Yoda to Darth Vader, all referred to "destiny". If you have destiny, it follows that you have been chosen to do a specific thing. Everyone who has a destiny has been specially chosen to fulfill it.

    Whether everyone has a destiny, or only specific individuals (as in Erfworld) was never spelled out. The point is, though, you can't have destiny without something very like both prophecy and fate. Which means not everyone in the GFFA is an equal. Some, at least, are specially marked out as chosen to fulfill a specific task. Which sounds very divine right of kings-ish.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    But that doesn't mean "Special People come from Special Families", which is the specific point under discussion.

    Luke could have been Destined to destroy the death star, defeat the Emperor, and rebuild the Jedi order just the same without him being The Son of The Chosen One, or even The Son of Darth Vader.

    Anakin could have been Destined to "Bring Balance to the Force" if, his Father had just been some random slave on tattooine who died in a speeder accident.

    Rey can be a Super Force Prodigy, Destined to do whatever it is she ends up doing, while ALSO being the daughter of two nobody junk dealers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    You know there have been like 3 writedowns of why people where upset her parents where not important that had nothing to do with fanboying about bloodlines but its dismissed anyways.

    How the POINT is executed poorly, and how it comes off more as lazy storytelling then a creative artistic decision?

    Can we then call people who defend this movie Fanboys then? Is Fanboy the next conversation ender?
    I'm not reading this entire thread I have things to do. Ultimately I disagree with the idea that Rey being all this powerful while having no connections to anyone else to be a meaningless point. Some people are just that skilled. No one got upset at Han Solo DEFEATING VADAR in a space battle. Sneak attack or not. This movie takes the idea of destiny and linage and legends and is like "hey maybe that's...not good? Maybe that's all bull****" and I like that. I don't think it's executed poorly, and it's not lazy. They put a lot of effort into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    However, taking issue with Rey's parents not mattering is not a matter of misunderstanding the film, its a matter of understanding exactly what the film is doing, and realizing what its doing is systematically undermining and demeaning Star Wars.

    Its not just that Rey has no parents. The Jedi religion has nothing to contribute, the heroes need to learn to stop being so heroic, and the audience needs to forget their expectations for a powerful villain, or that Force skills require training, or for that matter that knowledge requires exposure to books. By the way you can also hack computer systems with bits of metal and its not strange that a lone starfighter or saltfighter can stare straight down on a massive fleet.

    In nearly every way this movie can, it throws out the old rules, burns them (sometimes literally), and gives us nothing in its place.
    Ray's being a nobody who rises to great power due to determination is not at all undermining or demeaning to Star Wars. The Jedi religion IS PRETTY BAD, and Luke's point about them being corrupt is pretty much correct. The lesson Rose told to Finn was not "don't be heroic" it was "don't sacrifice yourself worthlessly". He wouldn't of stopped the cannon, he was focused entirely on getting revenge, instead of fighting to protect. There's a difference, and it matters. The villain IS powerful, Kylo Ren is very strong and ALSO a huge whiny piss baby, which is GOOD because that's the exact type of environment he was built up in. He's the son of the great Han Solo and Leia Ortaga, nephew of the great Luke Skywalker, Grandson of the great Anakin Skywalker, destined golden child who would balance the force. He's a ****ing moron with delusions of grandeur. He's STILL STRONG, though.

    The Force is a belief. Did you get mad at the blind guardian in Rogue One being so skilled with the force? And I mean...yes, you can hack a door open through that. That's perfectly reasonable. He's firing off the electrical signals that would make the door open.

    It has given us something in it's place. It's given us the teachings of the Jedi, with the afterthought of where they genuinely failed. And it's given us a new beginning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    So what am I genuinely misunderstanding? That you don't have to be special? Since when did you have to be special? A lot of people are involved in the events of the original trilogy. Leia starts us off by making the plot even remotely possible, and not because she's a Skywalker, but rather because she believes in the resistance and has the courage to use her position to aid it. Obi-Wan then decides to bring Luke along with him. Luke makes many choices along the way that impact the plot, sometimes for the worse. If Han hadn't had a change of heart, Vader would have destroyed Luke on the surface of the Death Star, good by happy ending.

    So what am I misunderstanding? Please explain. I find the accusations of fanboyism entirely lazy.
    The first six films are about how the entire galactic federation crumbles into dust because of a single family having a really bad marital dispute.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    The Original Trilogy, in Isolation, does very little to imply that Being a Skywalker makes you Special.

    We learn that Luke is a Skywalker at the end of the second movie, we learn that Leia is a skywalker in the third (IIRC). Luke's connection to vader lets him redeem Vader at the end, and win the fight against the Emperor, and while that's personally quite significant, the Death Star would have been blown up regardless (Vader and Palpatine might have escaped, but nothing that happened in the throne room had any impact on the fight outside).


    It's the Prequel Trilogy that set up Anakin as The Chosen One, birthed via Immaculate Conception by the Force itself, implying Specialness to his bloodline, and recontextualizing the first movie. Luke isn't just a Jedi, he's not just the son of Darth Vader, or The Pilot that destroyed the Death Star, he's a Skywalker!

    The Force Awakens, by making Rey's parentage a big mystery, also played into the idea that Special People are from Special Families, and the Skywalkers are the only Special Force Family in canon.
    I think we're in agreement that the original trilogy didn't require anyone to be special as far as bloodlines go. There were many heroes in the original trilogy that weren't a Skywalker.

    Spoiler
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    Regarding the prequel, it's an interesting thing. Because the new prequel seems at odds with it. Anakin is the Chosen One that will bring balance to the force. We understood that to mean he brought balance when he destroyed Darth Sidious. But the new trilogy is telling us that the Force balances itself. As one side grows stronger, the other side grows stronger as well. As Kylo gains power, some random person in the galaxy also grows in power. But not necessarily on the light side, because it's implied that she could go dark side at any moment?

    So what does that mean? At first it required the actions of a very special person (born of the Force) to restore balance. But now, balance just gets restored on its own. Rey isn't even doing anything. She is simply equal to Kylo Ren. Boom, balance restored. So... how does the balance work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos
    That Rey, raised an orphan, dreams of having parents. Who were they? Are they awesome?

    For any orphan, the answer to that question is almost ALWAYS disapointment.
    Spoiler
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    So the point I'm missing that La Zodiac is alluding to is that orphans will always be disappointed when they find out their parentage?

    That's the point of The Last Jedi??

    Blaming the movie for getting us to empathize with that is out of place.
    So you say. It seems like a very weak message or story to tell. It seems very... out of place even.
    Spoiler
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    Get the movie fanbase hyped up over her parentage to then pull a fast one, so that we can empathize with orphans? Um... ok. No wonder I misunderstood lol. That's horse****.


    I was going to reply to Pendell but BRC said what I would have said, so no need.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    The Original Trilogy, in Isolation, does very little to imply that Being a Skywalker makes you Special.

    We learn that Luke is a Skywalker at the end of the second movie, we learn that Leia is a skywalker in the third (IIRC). Luke's connection to vader lets him redeem Vader at the end, and win the fight against the Emperor, and while that's personally quite significant, the Death Star would have been blown up regardless (Vader and Palpatine might have escaped, but nothing that happened in the throne room had any impact on the fight outside).


    It's the Prequel Trilogy that set up Anakin as The Chosen One, birthed via Immaculate Conception by the Force itself, implying Specialness to his bloodline, and recontextualizing the first movie. Luke isn't just a Jedi, he's not just the son of Darth Vader, or The Pilot that destroyed the Death Star, he's a Skywalker!

    The Force Awakens, by making Rey's parentage a big mystery, also played into the idea that Special People are from Special Families, and the Skywalkers are the only Special Force Family in canon.
    I would actually say the roots that Skywalker makes you special is a bit more important in the OT than you’re giving credit to.

    Now the first movie sets it up more like anyone who truly believes in the Force can be a Jedi. But by the second and third we are getting specific lines like “That boy is our last hope.” “No, there is another.” Implying the entire state of the galaxy and the Jedi order rests on the shoulders of Luke and Leia specifically. This along with Luke saying how the Force is strong in his family. “I have it. My father has it. And my sister...”

    Now the Prequels take the subtext of the importance of lineage that was pervasive in the last two OT movies and runs it into the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Thank you, Dianekes. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
    You're welcome, I suppose. I don't think I've ever been thanked for writing my meandering thoughts on a movie before.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2017-12-19 at 03:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    So what does that mean? At first it required the actions of a very special person (born of the Force) to restore balance. But now, balance just gets restored on its own. Rey isn't even doing anything. She is simply equal to Kylo Ren. Boom, balance restored. So... how does the balance work?

    So the point I'm missing that La Zodiac is alluding to is that orphans will always be disappointed when they find out their parentage?

    That's the point of The Last Jedi??

    So you say. It seems like a very weak message or story to tell. It seems very... out of place even. Get the movie fanbase hyped up over her parentage to then pull a fast one, so that we can empathize with orphans? Um... ok. No wonder I misunderstood lol. That's horse****.
    That's not what he meant. The Force is a balance. Things always even out. It's not saying that someone will be granted overwhelming power to beat his power, just that something will rise up to beat him. Rebellion, another force user, people in general. The Force IS the balance of things.

    That's not even remotely what the point is. The point is that sometimes legends are just legends. Rey knew her parents weren't special, so she looked for parents in other figures. Han, Leia, Luke. But in the end what she needed was to accept her past and move on to a better future. Trying to find something special about "her past" distracted her from realizing that she herself can be special due to who she is.

    Look, ultimately JJ Abram's dumb mystery box took advantage of a lot of fans and made them start theory crafting about who her parents could be. In the end the answer was "they were just her parents" isn't satisfying feeling compared to the build up, but I do feel like the movie did it's best to make the reveal that they were nobody, as important as if they were revealed to be somebody. Kylo Ren even says that if he ties herself to him, she can "be a part of this story". She'll have a connection that makes her special. But in the end it's she who decides why she's special, she who earns her place in this "story".


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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    That's not what he meant. The Force is a balance. Things always even out. It's not saying that someone will be granted overwhelming power to beat his power, just that something will rise up to beat him. Rebellion, another force user, people in general. The Force IS the balance of things.
    Spoiler
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    Yes, it is saying that someone will be granted overwhelming power. That is the explanation we received for why Rey can outmaneuver anyone on the Falcon, why she defeated Kylo Ren in combat the first time she wielded a lightsaber, why she was able to defeat Kylo's mental interrogations, etc.

    It's because she's Agent Smith and Kylo is Neo. As he gains power, she gains power. Because of the balance. We learned this in the throne room. That's the explanation of her miraculous power. Case in point, Luke has never felt a power like hers except in Ben. Why? Because they are equal parts on opposite sides of the equation.

    I hope you liked The Matrix Reloaded .

    That's not even remotely what the point is. The point is that sometimes legends are just legends.
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    Right. Sometimes legends are just legends, and sometimes legends are just people that consider murdering their nephews in cold blood because they no longer believe in redemption and stuff. I get it. Sometimes what came before has to get profaned to move forward. Sometimes you just have to **** on stuff to make new stuff.
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    The 'Chosen One' ends the prequels as a ball of fire with no limbs, having been spectacularly defeated by someone with no known special bloodline. Why is that being taken as an endorsement of 'only special bloodlines can do special things?'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    Y
    Right. Sometimes legends are just legends, and sometimes legends are just people that consider murdering their nephews in cold blood because they no longer believe in redemption and stuff. I get it. Sometimes what came before has to get profaned to move forward. Sometimes you just have to **** on stuff to make new stuff.
    That's not even what happened though. Luke saw the darkness within Ben, and knowing that not cutting out the darkness was what ultimately destroyed the Old Republic, he turned his lightsaber on as a reaction. However, it was a momentary lapse, which he regretted and he was not going to kill Ben because he does still believe in redemption.

    Remember, this is Luke. His first reaction to finding out bad news was to scream at it like a child. Then, 4 years later, he put his plan in motion to redeem his father. Here, at least he was going to put the plan in motion after about half a second.

    Only, Ben didn't give him a chance. And it's worth noticing, that in their first confrontation, Ben attacks and instead of defending himself, Luke just tries to calm Ben down. He even later says that if Ben can be redeemed, he's not the one that can do it. Because Ben believes Luke betrayed him. He even apologizes for that during their final meeting.

    I don't think that profanes Luke at all. It's a bit melodramatic as a story set up. But, honestly, I can't think of a family based story that doesn't fall back on melodrama to get tension building.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The 'Chosen One' ends the prequels as a ball of fire with no limbs, having been spectacularly defeated by someone with no known special bloodline. Why is that being taken as an endorsement of 'only special bloodlines can do special things?'
    He does. But he ends his life defeating the greatest Sith ever (at least according to Lucas). Something that Obi-wan and Yoda were unable to do.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2017-12-19 at 03:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The 'Chosen One' ends the prequels as a ball of fire with no limbs, having been spectacularly defeated by someone with no known special bloodline. Why is that being taken as an endorsement of 'only special bloodlines can do special things?'
    By that point he'd already helped bring down the Jedi order and establish the Empire. Then, he went on to be the Emperor's right-hand man, before finally killing Sidious.

    He was The Chosen One, Born of The Force Itself, Destined to Reshape the Galaxy, which he did, twice. He just got lit on fire and had his limbs chopped off somewhere in between. That didn't exactly slow him down as time went on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    That didn't exactly slow him down as time went on.
    Unless you mean literally slow him down of course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    The lesson Rose told to Finn was not "don't be heroic" it was "don't sacrifice yourself worthlessly". He wouldn't of stopped the cannon, he was focused entirely on getting revenge, instead of fighting to protect. There's a difference, and it matters.
    I mean, he was like...six feet away when she stopped him. I think he'd have made it just fine. And if it wouldn't have stopped the cannon, then why the hell did they attack in the first place? According to them, stopping the cannon was entirely the point. I don't really know exactly how, because the saltspeeders didn't seem like they came with any great plan to begin with, but slamming into it seems as good a guess as any.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Unless you mean literally slow him down of course.
    I mean yes, he was literally slower. Not really capable of managing anything above a foreboding march in the motion department. Not doing much in the way of the ol' Jedi Flip N' Tumble.
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  25. - Top - End - #295
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The 'Chosen One' ends the prequels as a ball of fire with no limbs, having been spectacularly defeated by someone with no known special bloodline. Why is that being taken as an endorsement of 'only special bloodlines can do special things?'
    Exactly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes
    That's not even what happened though. Luke saw the darkness within Ben, and knowing that not cutting out the darkness was what ultimately destroyed the Old Republic, he turned his lightsaber on as a reaction.
    Do you remember that Luke turned his lightsaber *off* in the presence of Darth Sidious and Darth Vader? To redeem his father. He left himself vulnerable and got fried by Sidious. All the while calling out to his father to save him.

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    Now he's older, and wiser, and a Jedi master and... murderous and afraid and reactionary. Right. Brilliant storytelling. Incredible realization of the character.

    However, it was a momentary lapse, which he regretted and he was not going to kill Ben because he does still believe in redemption.
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    He tells Leia Ben can't be redeemed.

    Remember, this is Luke. His first reaction to finding out bad news was to scream at it like a child.
    Because he nearly was a child and learned something horrific, something opposite to what he had been led to believe.

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    In The Last Jedi, he's a jedi master standing over a sleeping child. Even young Luke that "screamed like a child" was brave and inspired enough to sacrifice himself attempting to redeem his father. Not sure why older Luke is no longer that. Movie doesn't tell us either.
    Last edited by Dr.Samurai; 2017-12-20 at 08:36 AM.
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  26. - Top - End - #296
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    By that point he'd already helped bring down the Jedi order and establish the Empire. Then, he went on to be the Emperor's right-hand man, before finally killing Sidious.

    He was The Chosen One, Born of The Force Itself, Destined to Reshape the Galaxy, which he did, twice. He just got lit on fire and had his limbs chopped off somewhere in between. That didn't exactly slow him down as time went on.
    Anakin, I heard, was a terrible character. From what I can tell, is Rey, Anakin 2.0? All the blessings of the force given to them, but one who doesn't fall to the Sith?

  27. - Top - End - #297
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    Exactly.

    Do you remember that Luke turned his lightsaber *off* in the presence of Darth Sidious and Darth Vader? To redeem his father. He left himself vulnerable and got fried by Sidious. All the while calling out to his father to save him.

    Now he's older, and wiser, and a Jedi master and... murderous and afraid and reactionary. Right. Brilliant storytelling. Incredible realization of the character.
    I do. I also remember when he flew into a rage and turned it on. I also remember this was again 4 years after the initial revelation.

    He tells Leia Ben can't be redeemed.
    No, he says "I can't redeem him." He can't do it. He's the one that ****ed it all up. A Skywalker speciality, really. Rey might. Hell, Finn might for all I and he knows. But he's not the one that can fix Ben. And he still goes out and tries to apologize for his actions anyway.

    Because he nearly was a child and learned something horrific, something opposite to what he had been led to believe.

    In The Last Jedi, he's a jedi master standing over a sleeping child. Even young Luke that "screamed like a child" was brave and inspired enough to sacrifice himself attempting to redeem his father. Not sure why older Luke is no longer that. Movie doesn't tell us either.
    He's a Jedi Master seeing the potential destruction of everything he worked for right in front of him. And still chooses not to go through with it. He shouldn't have turned the lightsaber on, and he knows that. He acted rash, impuslively. And after giving it a seconds thought realizes his mistake. A bit too late in this case.

    Just like Luke always was.

    He says he's not going to kill Sideous. Only for Sideous to taunt him and he then tries to kill Sideous and fights Vader. He says he won't fight Vader, only for Vader to say "Well, guess I'm gonna mess up your sisters life then." And then he fights Vader. He was going to kill his own father too, if it wasn't for the moment of realization that he was acting just like him (a point introduced by focusing on the similarities of the lost hand and reinforced by Palpatine hamming it up in the background).

    Then. Finally. He turns the lightsaber off. After ****ing up about 3 times, he does the right thing.

    That's Luke. One of the greatest protagonists and all around **** ups in film history.

  28. - Top - End - #298
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    Exactly.

    Do you remember that Luke turned his lightsaber *off* in the presence of Darth Sidious and Darth Vader? To redeem his father. He left himself vulnerable and got fried by Sidious. All the while calling out to his father to save him.

    Now he's older, and wiser, and a Jedi master and... murderous and afraid and reactionary. Right. Brilliant storytelling. Incredible realization of the character.

    He tells Leia Ben can't be redeemed.

    Because he nearly was a child and learned something horrific, something opposite to what he had been led to believe.

    In The Last Jedi, he's a jedi master standing over a sleeping child. Even young Luke that "screamed like a child" was brave and inspired enough to sacrifice himself attempting to redeem his father. Not sure why older Luke is no longer that. Movie doesn't tell us either.
    And Hamil doesn't get it either. And the man is not happy
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  29. - Top - End - #299
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
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    So, the Millennium Falcon can jump out of hyperspace right in front of a Star Destroyer, drop off an object, and jump out... and they just take it on board. If they're that stupid, send them a bomb.
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    This only works when you have a pair of force users communicating with each other so that the one on the Star Destroyer is expecting the other one to show up--and can sense that they're actually on the incoming object.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
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    So, I only saw that fight once, but my impression is that no less than 4 of them went after Supreme Leader-killing Kylo Ren, and only 2 went after the prisoner Rey. If my memory is correct, then, Rey "saving" Kylo is just a matter of her finishing off her guards before he finishes off his.
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    Based on my one viewing, I got more or less the same impression. I didn't catch numbers, but Kylo definitely drew more attention and killed more of the guards on his own. It's reasonable to conclude that he's better at combat (as long as he isn't severely wounded) even if Rey can match him in a direct tug-of-war via Force strength.
    Last edited by tiornys; 2017-12-19 at 04:02 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #300
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I mean, he was like...six feet away when she stopped him. I think he'd have made it just fine. And if it wouldn't have stopped the cannon, then why the hell did they attack in the first place? According to them, stopping the cannon was entirely the point. I don't really know exactly how, because the saltspeeders didn't seem like they came with any great plan to begin with, but slamming into it seems as good a guess as any.
    "as good a guess as any" is not a good enough reason to kill yourself.


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