Page 4 of 51 FirstFirst 123456789101112131429 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 1513
  1. - Top - End - #91
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by S_A_M I AM View Post

    There is a bunch of people throwing tantrums about all the usual stuff and they're all independently doing what they think is an effective counterattack: Putting up one star reviews wherever they feel they have a voice.

    Yes, by all means let us imagine a horrible movie is being panned due to racism and trollish behavior and not issues with characterization, insulting the existing characters, and bad writing.


    Quote Originally Posted by S_A_M I AM View Post

    This is conspiratorial nonsense.
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Too Smart for me Sam! Too Smart! I was just about to unleash my racist apocalypse on all those FILTHY minorities and XX Chromosome Havers because Im just too intimidated by their free spirits and pro-active movie actions.

    Curses Foiled Again!

    Tvtyrant Do something!


    I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those clever souls standing up for those poor innocent multi million dollar overpaid movie stars!

    And thier mangy dog!
    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2017-12-17 at 01:33 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Mando Knight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by S_A_M I AM View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    How do people feel about the explicit condemnation of The Jedi as both a philosophical school and an organisation? I know they pull that punch really hard but that's something a lot of people seem to love and I'm not sure how people feel about it.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Luke's condemnation of the Jedi Order comes from his extreme depression. When Rey finds him, he isn't capable of remembering the good that the Jedi can do--it's a dangerous and absolutely terrifying mental state to be in--and thus closely associates his own personal failure regarding his nephew with the failure of his mentors and the Order as a whole regarding Palpatine and Darth Vader.

    When Yoda calls down the lightning to burn the tree, Luke recoils in shock and his body language reveals that he probably doesn't even really believe what he told Rey: his instinct is still to save the very books he was about to burn down himself (although he wasn't aware at the time that Rey absconded with them when she ran off to try to turn Kylo Ren).

    Quote Originally Posted by S_A_M I AM View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    I suspect that I enjoyed the movie a lot more than you but I feel that there's a more coherent interpretation of what Yoda did: He's doing the exact same thing that Luke's teachers have always done with him. Tell convenient lies to get him to get off his ass and do what is to Yoda, the right thing.

    Yoda's choice of words "Rey has all she needs from that place" while she has the books stored away on the Falcon. Mirrors Kenobi's choice of words that "Vader did kill your father, from a certain point of view." when he's actually talking about a change in personal perception and identity.

    Because Luke doesn't actually say that he's changed his mind or anything like that: It would be a reasonable expectation of his behaviour that, if he's no longer risking propagating an ideology that he believes is toxic and dangerous, so he can then go buy the Rebellion time.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Actually, Luke's last words do reflect a change of heart regarding the Jedi: while taunting his nephew that everything Kylo Ren had just said was wrong, he ended with "...and I won't be The Last Jedi." He accepts that Rey will become a Jedi (and that he will join Yoda and Obi-Wan in the Force to guide her), and he'll buy her and the rest of the surviving Resistance time to escape, by using the Force in the most Jedi way possible: "Only for defense, never for attack."
    Avatar by Mr. Saturn

    3DS Friend Code: 4742-9573-4652

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Dec 2017

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    The funny thing is that I'd been worried that I was approaching conversations here in TGITP with too much tact and unnecessary qualifications that I'm not attacking people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Too Smart for me Sam! Too Smart! I was just about to unleash my racist apocalypse on all those FILTHY minorities and XX Chromosome Havers because Im just too intimidated by their free spirits and pro-active movie actions.

    Curses Foiled Again!

    Tvtyrant Do something!


    I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those clever souls standing up for those poor innocent multi million dollar overpaid movie stars!

    And thier mangy dog!
    Okay: First up: I'm sorry I wrote stuff addressing you three times. I wasn't intending to call you out specifically or anything like that, I was skimming the thread and mostly just replying to things that I find interesting.

    And I also don't think I implied I thought you were one of the "Racist Reactionary Bad Men(TM)" or anything like that and I'm also sorry if it seemed that way.

    If I can elaborate on the intent behind what I said to you?
    I offered an alternate explanation as to what the character motivation for one scene could be and mentioned another element of the movie as something that we might be able to agree was kind of morally ugly.

    "Companies are paying for good reviews of stuff I don't like" is a straight up conspiracy theory in some circles that just... Kinda gets on my goat because I feel that it's one of those conspiracy theories that overwhelm discourse on the same subject in a way that isn't really helpful. (Marketing in the form of content and art as product).
    If I misread you and you were using it as a joke or something so I overreacted: I apologise.

    Same with the "people shove trolling reviews into places in order to hit companies in the wallet" thing.

    And I think that I've some proof that I wasn't aware that you were the same person all three times: I presumed you were on either side of the same issue in both the second and the third time I replied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Yes, by all means let us imagine a horrible movie is being panned due to racism and trollish behavior and not issues with characterization, insulting the existing characters, and bad writing.
    Well. "Racist Reactionary Bad Men(TM)" are probably part of the group that I was talking about (They are around the place all the time, sadly.) but I don't think I said that was the entirety of "The Usuals."

    I specifically mentioned that some of them are doing the #starwarshatespoc thing.

    And honestly? I think that large group responses to media seems to come from tangible details. Mostly because I'm ripping off Film Crit Hulk's theory of inarticulate emotional responses. It's interesting but there's a lot of it spread across two essays. I would have no issue if you just called me a prick again and rolled on.

    I mean look at this There's some racism and sexism and stuff in there, sure, as well as the people taking issue with the film for its progressive shortcomings. (Which I remind you: I also mentioned as a thing that is happening.)

    But what seems to be the issue people are actually citing most commonly is the perception they have that the film is too funny or that the characters aren't being treated with an appropriate reverence or that it's undercutting the drama in some way.

    To me that reads as a symptom as to how their emotional investment in the storytelling tropes of the previous Star Wars isn't being met by the movie. (And it's fine if you disagree.) but it's an entirely different kind of weird+ valid emotional response than the "Racist Reactionary Bad Men(TM)" are having. And it's different again to my own weird+ valid emotional response that I had.

    I'm sorry I failed to express that with "The Usual" the first time. We cool?

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2015

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    There is way too much negativity in this thread. I enjoyed the movie. It was a good movie. There's certainly some things that could have been done better or differently, but it wasn't bad. I'm certain it wasn't terrible. This is probably all I can say about the movie here.

    Spoiler: First
    Show
    Leia. Kylo gets a lock on the bridge, and he knows Leia's there, but he doesn't fire. His wingmen do though. Kylo must think his mother is dead. The movie never really addresses this. I don't think he ever learns she's not dead, either, other than the vague "I'd know" sense the force gives. I was expecting it to come up one way or another, but it never did. Not when they're shooting down the transports. Not when Luke faced Kylo Ren on the planet's surface. It's not wrong, I don't think, but just not what I was expecting. Maybe something was planned for part IX, but reality has interfered. Now, I don't know. Oh, and Force OP, plz nerf.


    Spoiler: Second
    Show
    Luke. I enjoyed him a lot. Loved it. I knew he was projecting at the end. I just didn't get the kind of emotional response from his death that I think I should have. I was just confused. Too many cuts and jumps to reactions at the same time, maybe. Still, he did exactly what he said he would and died on that island. He also did and did not do what he said was impossible. He went out to face down the army of the First Order with nothing but a laser sword, but also didn't really. And it worked. His final showdown goes down in legends. I liked it.


    Spoiler: Third
    Show
    Finn. And Rose by association, but Finn's the returning character so he gets the title spot here. I liked his "rebel scum" moment (and I added "there goes Boba Fett" when Phasma fell into the fire), but that's a shallow victory amidst so much not-victory. I get that he's learned an important lesson through his failures (oh so many failures) and it's a lesson that flows from his heroic act in TFA that could have killed him too, and the movie does talk about failure being the best teacher, but I still feel bad for him. The movie is very rough with Finn. He doesn't just not succeed. He never gets to make things better, and does end up making things worse. It doesn't help that I thought that sounded like a terrible plan, even before they needed to recruit some codebreaker from some hive of scum and villainy to pull it off. Also, I think Luke's bacta tank was kinder to his dignity than whatever Finn woke up wearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by S_A_M I AM View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    If you want a kind of outrageous, thematic cul de sac to be angry about; How about that the balancing of the force apparently requires equivalent strength between light and dark side users now?

    Rey's power rising in tandem with Ben getting deeper into the dark side and throwing away chances for redemption. Where self improvement and the commitment towards "good" for the heroes directly empowers the people who are evil, petty and cruel.

    Because that's some ugly stuff.
    Spoiler: Ugly
    Show
    Sure, but that's about-to-die Snoke and depressed-Luke talking. It's not really true. Luke doesn't believe that when he declares he won't be the last Jedi. Rey rising to meet Ren's challenge at the end of the Force Awakens wasn't an upwelling of the Light Side meeting the Dark Side either. It was Rey tapping into a lot of hate and anger and beating down a wounded and conflicted boy who'd just killed his own father. When they're first forced to see each other again, she's still got all that anger, all that dark raging power, right there on the surface, plain to see: she hates him. She's drawn to that dark pit of the island as she searches for her parents. There's plenty of darkness in this person who's supposed to be the opposite of Kylo Ren. As she comes to understand Ben, she gets that serene, peaceful Jedi hope that he can be saved and when she goes before Snoke she's basically powerless in front of the master. They're counterparts, narratively, but not counterweights, metaphysically.

    There's a balance or cycle of life and death, of protection and destruction, of light and dark, but not of good and evil. That's the choices that people can make, and are always able to make. It wasn't the balance of the force that was saving (or destroying) the Resistance. It was the people who survived, the choices they made, and the lessons they'd learned that made that possible.

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    huttj509's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    Nope, they're consumer aggregates. Those mediocre reviews are an average from across tens of thousands of moviegoers(Over a hundred thousand between the two and counting).

    Which is the thing. They're consistent enough to be used in marketing and trustworthy enough to be used by reputable sites, production offices, and firms across the world. They aren't random forums, they're one of the most accurate ways to gauge consumer reaction.

    Which is where things are worrying for Lucasfilms producers and executives. For the situation to get this bad on opening night means that their record breaking opening may be followed by a record breaking dropoff and give them far less profit than they expected. Because a film can tank a bad critic score, but a bad score directly from the people who spend the money can be far worse. It's not a guaranteed death knell, four of the five live action transformer movies scored in this range, but it's never been a good sign and it's certainly not a headache Lucasfilm wants to deal with while still handling EA's shenanigans.

    For a film this divisive with stats like this that means that before the opening weekend is over, a hundred thousand people are saying this movie was terrible. Since I believe in being thorough I've been asking around myself. Of the people who've seen it that I know, not a single person has actually liked it out of anyone I spoke to one on one. Not in real life, not in chat rooms, not on social media. At best it's a "mixed" reaction and not an outright endorsement.
    I saw it Friday morning. Friday evening I was talking with 3 friends before friday game night as they had seen Thurs evening.

    All 5 of us loved it.

    Another friend arrived. Not as much discussion as we wanted to fit in the RPG we were doing, but he liked it as well.

    In case demographics matter, 3 male, 2 female, ages 30-35, 80% married, 1 kid, they had not at that time seen it with the kid.

    Edit: changed some math around because I forgot to count myself in the demographics...but only sometimes)
    Last edited by huttj509; 2017-12-17 at 04:08 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by huttj509 View Post
    I saw it Friday morning. Friday evening I was talking with 3 friends before friday game night as they had seen Thurs evening.

    All 5 of us loved it.

    Another friend arrived. Not as much discussion as we wanted to fit in the RPG we were doing, but he liked it as well.

    In case demographics matter, 3 male, 2 female, ages 30-35, 80% married, 1 kid, they had not at that time seen it with the kid.

    Edit: changed some math around because I forgot to count myself in the demographics...but only sometimes)
    Yeah, but that's JUST your personal anecdote, which compared to a series of aggregates that represent about a million dollars of the ticket buying audience isn't really saying much. Even counting personal anecdotes only that only represents the data properly, in that there were slightly more people who hated it than liked it and there's only a little bit of inbetween.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I don't care what you feel.
    That pretty much sums up the Jayngfet experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    something something Jayngfet experience.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    huttj509's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    Yeah, but that's JUST your personal anecdote, which compared to a series of aggregates that represent about a million dollars of the ticket buying audience isn't really saying much. Even counting personal anecdotes only that only represents the data properly, in that there were slightly more people who hated it than liked it and there's only a little bit of inbetween.
    You ended your post with a personal anecdote, drawing attention to how literally nobody you had talked to had liked it.

    I replied with an anecdote of my own, providing you with more data points to your possible one on one interaction file.

    I'm possibly reacting poorly because I walked out of the theatre having really liked the movie. I chatted about it with friends in person, and we all really liked the movie. I read MovieBob's review to get his thoughts. He liked it. I look forward to his non-spoiler-free review for details. I read film critic Hulk's review. He really liked it, with more details about what he liked.

    I swung over to the forum to talk about some stuff I really liked (the triple flashback with more information each time swinging views of an event, the First Order getting some classically "hero" ship maneuvers, crashing to take out a bomber and protect their compatriots, a dramatic run down a narrow channel to take out the enemy flagship), and find that apparently "literally nobody" liked the movie.

    I liked it. I am not ashamed of liking it. Let those who are feeling similarly discouraged by the omnipresent wave of vitriol take solace in the knowledge that they are not alone in their enjoyment of the movie.

    For I liked it.

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Dec 2017

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Spoiler: Thoughts about a small element of a good movie
    Show
    It really is nice to see people in universe say that the Jedi were bad but...

    Without having to get into the Fashy stuff: the Jedi were inadequate caregivers for their students that makes falling to the dark side more likely. Particularly how they're approaching raising/ creating emotionally healthy people. Curtailing emotional connections between people isolates them and makes them more likely to imprint and rely more heavily on people who are providing emotional support to them. (Snoake and Padme in this situation.)

    And yes: There are diagetic reasons for the failures of the Jedi that do not come down to the social systems they're using. I feel that Anakin and Ben maybe being too old ornot fully integrating into the Jedi Order and all that exacerbated existing issues with the Jedi as an institution.

    There's a bunch of cases like that for people raised in cult situations where they're only getting succor from certain people (Like an all encompassing master/ student relationship) or from the survivors of childhood abuse. It's very complex and frankly: I am not well enough informed to talk about it in detail but when they start being socialised in other contexts; they frequently find themselves back into inequal and damaging relationships because their expectations of reasonable behaviour are skewed.

    Luke didn't just fail as a philosophical teacher because The Dark Side is bad: He failed to connect with his nephew in a fundamental way because of his adherence to a parenting style that is inadequate and allowed Ben to establish a relationship with a "bad influence." One that I do read as paternal and abusive. (Particularly how Snoake polices Ben's coping mechanisms and signifiers of his identity.)

    Don't get me wrong: If a system has created three galactic scale space tyrants within about 40 years of each other, that's a MASSIVE criticism of the system but it's ignoring a more mundane form of harm that is not shown to be resolved when The Jedi are affirmed at the end of the movie.

    Just that Luke wasn't enough.

    Not sure how I feel about that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Luke's condemnation of the Jedi Order comes from his extreme depression. When Rey finds him, he isn't capable of remembering the good that the Jedi can do--it's a dangerous and absolutely terrifying mental state to be in--and thus closely associates his own personal failure regarding his nephew with the failure of his mentors and the Order as a whole regarding Palpatine and Darth Vader.

    When Yoda calls down the lightning to burn the tree, Luke recoils in shock and his body language reveals that he probably doesn't even really believe what he told Rey: his instinct is still to save the very books he was about to burn down himself (although he wasn't aware at the time that Rey absconded with them when she ran off to try to turn Kylo Ren).


    Spoiler
    Show
    Actually, Luke's last words do reflect a change of heart regarding the Jedi: while taunting his nephew that everything Kylo Ren had just said was wrong, he ended with "...and I won't be The Last Jedi." He accepts that Rey will become a Jedi (and that he will join Yoda and Obi-Wan in the Force to guide her), and he'll buy her and the rest of the surviving Resistance time to escape, by using the Force in the most Jedi way possible: "Only for defense, never for attack."
    Spoiler
    Show
    Not saying you're wrong: I just want to know you're opinion before replying in full: Do you think Luke was aware that Rey had the books when he said that he would not be the last Jedi?

    Because I feel that's a very important distinction between him using the term "Jedi" to refer to "People who are able to use the force well" and the term Jedi to refer to "Something similar to the institution that he has been railing against" so "The Jedi Order."

    I'm leaning very strongly towards the former.


    Your avatar is dope, BTW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    There is way too much negativity in this thread. I enjoyed the movie. It was a good movie. There's certainly some things that could have been done better or differently, but it wasn't bad. I'm certain it wasn't terrible. This is probably all I can say about the movie here.
    You know what, yeah: That's actually fair and I haven't said anything unreservedly positive about the movie yet and I loved it.

    Spoiler: Somethings that are beautiful
    Show
    Kylo remains one of the best examples of a sympathetic, utterly irredeemable bastard I have ever seen. I really cannot emphasise that enough, his ongoing self destruction and the wilful degradation of everything he loves has been heartbreaking and strikes an emotional chord that you normally need to build an entire story around (Byron style) in order to sink in as well as these last two movies have done it.

    And I feel like that ties into a failing of Star Wars as a whole that the new movies have been increasingly good at correcting: Valorizing evil.

    There is a narrative that we as a culture construct around certain character archetypes:
    The unrepentant, the unfettered and the triumphant in particular. That the traits that make them good bad guys, people worth opposing, are traits worth emulating in general. That the person who is willing to benefit from harm is somehow distinct or better in the same way a heroic character is from the bulk of humanity.

    "The Mundanity of Evil" or some kind of inherent lack of virtue is often used as a counter to Valorizing Evil but it's almost always used to comfort or to in some way excuse poor behaviour. But here? They've taken somebody who is Valorized in that way but who's arc is built around trying and failing to fix himself.

    (They did something similar and also good with Hux's buffoonery and the very charismatic Hacker Dude.)

    Kylo knows he's a monster and he's not okay with that. But what kills him, what makes it unbearable: He can't be alone anymore.
    Maybe I'm an easy mark for this stuff but it's a very strange combination of emotions; catharsis, validation and pure asthetic joy to see the cast, particularly Leia, turn away from him.

    Other great things:
    -The acknowledgement of profiteering and class struggle as a core issue that nobody in the cast is equipped to solve or even adequately address. (For people who are saying that the time spent on The Casino Planet with Finn and Rose was useless: Fite me.)
    -Rose is adorable and should wear nothing but the cutest hats and should marry Finn and eat strawberry lunches with Kaylee and get everything she wants in life while fighting the power and gulaging people who hit her Giraffe-Greyhound friends.
    -The cast is uniformly great. Oh my gosh. Seriously: There's been kind of an issue for a while where ongoing franchises are emphasising characters as a core appeal to cover for having a weak plot. Even if the cast here was half as good, I would love to see a wide release movie do that
    I love, love, love how they invest so much into subverting genera expectations in the Poe subplot that I can't elaborate on because I've written too goshdarn much but it is a really solid little piece of writing.

    Oh. And it's just normally beautiful too. It's hard to separate stuff like set design and cinematography and lighting but the technical production here is as good as I have ever seen.



    Spoiler: Ugly
    Show
    Sure, but that's about-to-die Snoke and depressed-Luke talking. It's not really true. Luke doesn't believe that when he declares he won't be the last Jedi. Rey rising to meet Ren's challenge at the end of the Force Awakens wasn't an upwelling of the Light Side meeting the Dark Side either. It was Rey tapping into a lot of hate and anger and beating down a wounded and conflicted boy who'd just killed his own father. When they're first forced to see each other again, she's still got all that anger, all that dark raging power, right there on the surface, plain to see: she hates him. She's drawn to that dark pit of the island as she searches for her parents. There's plenty of darkness in this person who's supposed to be the opposite of Kylo Ren. As she comes to understand Ben, she gets that serene, peaceful Jedi hope that he can be saved and when she goes before Snoke she's basically powerless in front of the master. They're counterparts, narratively, but not counterweights, metaphysically.

    There's a balance or cycle of life and death, of protection and destruction, of light and dark, but not of good and evil. That's the choices that people can make, and are always able to make. It wasn't the balance of the force that was saving (or destroying) the Resistance. It was the people who survived, the choices they made, and the lessons they'd learned that made that possible.
    Spoiler
    Show
    I'm not sure you can draw a clear distinction between "Internal logic as how the characters understand it" and "Internal logic as how it is best understood" but I do see both parts of your point: We are limited through both potential lenses as to how the internal mechanics of the universe works.

    And even if you are a dirty thought criminal who seems like a genuinely lovely person, I can't refute you here.

    Part of me just sees the interpretation that I've lamented as a logical extension as to how they've codified "The Dark Side" and "The Light Side".
    If I'm wrong, please correct me: The Force is thematically rooted in Daoism but Yin and Yang (Light and Dark) are not equal opposites. There is "The way things should be" and there is "This is out of balance and wrong." So there is not a distinction between "Creation and Destruction" the impermanence of existence and rebirth is a part of reality as it should be and is not associated with being out of balance.

    (And I should add: The people who think that The Force isn't tied in with Daoism or who came away from the Rige Trige thinking as light and dark as equal opposites aren't wrong at all. If your movie requires an understanding of philosophical school from an entirely different culture in order to get a kick from it: You have failed as a storyteller and are probably a ****.)

    So to my understanding, There was not a distinction between "The Light" and "The Dark." There was a distinction between "The Pure Force the Way it Should Be" and "The Corruption."

    And I don't know how to refute characters in universe who say "This temple is a light side thing so there is the dark side thing below it. Balance." or how Ben isn't speaking to the fundamental nature of Space Magic when he says that the light side is calling him.

    Particularly given that Rey being a Paragon of Light as Kylo is a Paragon of Dark (and so they empower each other) has relevance to the films dieresis. It gives context to why Rey is apparently a monstrously strong force user without training. It ties into the thematic point that bloodline is not important when given access to Unlimited Power. (Though tying it to destiny instead still feels iffy.)

    But to reiterate: I think that you're right as to what it means within the diegesis of the films proper. In light of what you've said; I would be surprised if Rey didn't end up as some kind of Grey Jedi, superior to the way the old system was and a more complete person because of it.
    It's just... I don't know. Part of me doesn't like even an implicit "Evil is necessary" narrative device, you know? And I will bet anything you like that Dark Side=Evil is a thing for a very, very long time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    Yeah, but that's JUST your personal anecdote, which compared to a series of aggregates that represent about a million dollars of the ticket buying audience isn't really saying much. Even counting personal anecdotes only that only represents the data properly, in that there were slightly more people who hated it than liked it and there's only a little bit of inbetween.
    The "objective" metrics you may be using to gauge audience response are heavily biased towards negative responses. Aggregate sites (and nerd forums) gravitate towards extremes conversations and audience reactions and both Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes use formulae that weights towards the very high and very low end of the scale to increase engagement.
    And that's before you go towards a self selection process that people throwing tantrums are much more likely to throw very negative reviews up into a shared space. (And of course: That nerd forum people and the friends of nerd forum people are predisposed to tantrums, bad feelings for perceived slights and are much, much more likely to throw a review up online.)

    My understanding is that the all of audience consensus is moderate to good but the best metric, as far as I'm aware, is going to be box office. At least wait until second weekend finishes before you declare the consensus based on any potential metric anyway.
    Last edited by S_A_M I AM; 2017-12-17 at 06:19 AM. Reason: I told a small lie through a poorly worded line and fixed it.

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Callos_DeTerran's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    ...

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Not going to engage with the larger discussion as a whole, but there is something funny that I think is worth pointing out about the dissonance between critic reviews and audience reviews.

    For as much as The Last Jedi tries not to retread ESB like TFA did ANH, it did in one very pointed method.

    When Empire Strikes Back came out, critics loved it but audiences hated it too. Now, after time has passed and many people place ESB as on of, if not the, favorite Star Wars movie on their list. And it wasn't until later when they watched the movie without expectations they had going in when they first watched it that changed their minds.

    So there is that.
    Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.

    "These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Land of dreams, zzzz
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    I'll be honest, the more I think about TLJ, the more I move into the 'actively dislike' camp. What was fun was the opening space battle, even if it got ridiculous, and the scenes with Luke. The rest was boring, or too fast to actually work out what was happening.

    Sure, you can like it. But here's the thing, it committed the mortal sin of the prequel trilogy by not relying on action to keep my attention. It should have explained why the triumphant ending of TFA was now a case of 'The Resistance is horrifically outgunned', especially as TFA had implied that the FO was not the supreme military power like the Empire was (which was something I liked about TFA), now the only difference between the Empire and FO is how Nazi the uniforms are. In the process of something different we were essentially handed 'the Rebellion and Empire as they were before A New Hope', as a minor detail that they felt that they didn't have to explain.

    Heck, it explains less than the PT. Why are the Separatists more dangerous than the Trade Federation was? Because they had ten years to build their armies without being discovered (helped by their leader being a high ranking official).

    Spoiler
    Show
    The First Order? Stole resources from poor miners and then bought some Star Destroyers. It doesn't really feel like a good explanation, for an army of their size it would make sense that the FO would have significant industrial capacity so they're not continually leaking money, but this is ignored.


    Spoiler: Way it is significantly better than TFA
    Show
    The one very good thing I can say is that at least the mystery introduced, what do the Jedi texts say, is one that can be easily answered because everybody has a decent idea. Throw in a couple of twists to show that the Jedi had lost their way and it could be a great plot element in Episode IX.
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by S_A_M I AM View Post
    "Companies are paying for good reviews of stuff I don't like"
    Except there is literal precedent for this.

    I don't say things that I don't have prededent for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Admiral Squish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    On my back, in my heart
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Overall, I really really enjoyed it.

    There is one thought that's nagging at me, though.
    When the cruiser rams Snoke's ship at hyperspeed.
    That's a Relativistic Kinetic Kill Vehicle, but even more so, because it's actually moving FASTER than the speed of light. The force of that kind of impact would have caused the atoms of the two vehicles to undergo cold fusion and create a truly spectacular explosion. If anything, that impact should have been even MORE devastating that it was.
    But here's my question: Why aren't there hyperdrive missiles that do that? Like, I know hyperdrives are probably expensive, but you can fit one on an x-wing, so they're not huge, and you can afford a bunch of them. Why wouldn't you just make a stripped-down x-wing that's basically just a navigation system and a hyperdrive and just have them punch it toward key points on enemy capital ships?
    My Homebrew
    Five-time champion of the GITP monster competition!

    Current Projects:
    Crossroads: the New World: A pathfinder campaign setting about an alternate history of North America, where five empire collide in a magical land full of potential. On the road to publication!

    Epic Avatar and Sigitar by AlterForm
    Spoiler
    Show

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    No-one knows, as Star Wars technology is not thought out to such depth.

    Possibly, only a cruiser this big could punch through the shields of a capital ship, or the mass of large vehicles would make smaller vehicles drop out of hyperspace too soon, or they cannot automate such devices, meaning that you'd need a kamikaze pilot for each one. The last one is supported by widespread use of manned fighter craft, with fully automated fighter drones being an anomaly.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Blackhawk748's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Tharggy, on Tellene
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    Overall, I really really enjoyed it.

    There is one thought that's nagging at me, though.
    When the cruiser rams Snoke's ship at hyperspeed.
    That's a Relativistic Kinetic Kill Vehicle, but even more so, because it's actually moving FASTER than the speed of light. The force of that kind of impact would have caused the atoms of the two vehicles to undergo cold fusion and create a truly spectacular explosion. If anything, that impact should have been even MORE devastating that it was.
    But here's my question: Why aren't there hyperdrive missiles that do that? Like, I know hyperdrives are probably expensive, but you can fit one on an x-wing, so they're not huge, and you can afford a bunch of them. Why wouldn't you just make a stripped-down x-wing that's basically just a navigation system and a hyperdrive and just have them punch it toward key points on enemy capital ships?
    Because up until this point it was impossible as Hyperdrives and shields didnt work that way. Mostly because Hyperdrives pull you into an alternate dimension where you can travel FTL but cannot interact with anything in this dimension. Gravity is the only thing that will affect you, thus why Hyperspace routes exist.

    However theres a super weapon called the Galaxy Gun that has Hyperdrive equipped missiles, but thats so you can shoot them at anything from your position. They have to come out of Hyperspace in order to kill things.
    Last edited by Blackhawk748; 2017-12-17 at 10:19 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
    "Mr. Aochev, tear down this wall!" Ro'n Ad-Ri'Gan, Bard
    Tiefling Sorcerer by Linkele
    Spoiler: Homebrew stuff
    Show
    My Spell, My Weapon, Im a God

    My Post Apocalyptic Alternate Timeline setting: Amerhikan Wasteland


    My Historical Stuff channel

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    No-one knows, as Star Wars technology is not thought out to such depth.

    Possibly, only a cruiser this big could punch through the shields of a capital ship, or the mass of large vehicles would make smaller vehicles drop out of hyperspace too soon, or they cannot automate such devices, meaning that you'd need a kamikaze pilot for each one. The last one is supported by widespread use of manned fighter craft, with fully automated fighter drones being an anomaly.
    As I noted originally though, this would still be much cheaper then the casualties lost from fighter swarm engagements. Basically this movie breaks Star Wars.
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

  17. - Top - End - #107
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    As I noted originally though, this would still be much cheaper then the casualties lost from fighter swarm engagements. Basically this movie breaks Star Wars.
    I thought they were just following up on Han Solo's hyperdrive shenanigans. If you can hyperdrive past shields, why not use it as a weapon? I was confused as to if it counts as a missile, or just two ships in the same spot, which causes heavy damage.

  18. - Top - End - #108
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    But here's my question: Why aren't there hyperdrive missiles that do that? Like, I know hyperdrives are probably expensive, but you can fit one on an x-wing, so they're not huge, and you can afford a bunch of them. Why wouldn't you just make a stripped-down x-wing that's basically just a navigation system and a hyperdrive and just have them punch it toward key points on enemy capital ships?
    Well, no one really thought of it....and, of course, ''warp missiles'' are too Star Trek.

    Star Wars, specifically in the films, has always presented a very low technology society. Star Wars does not even have simple 20th century technology. And Star Wars military tech is some of the worst: dumb weapons, fire and forget weapons, everything targeted by people and so forth. And on top of that the ''Space is a World War Two Ocean Battle''.

    So sure, driod hyper kaitens make a lot of sense. But they would also ruin the swashbuckling fun of Star Wars. Once you got past WW2 tech wise, you can't have a good pulp swashbuckling story.

    Just to point out Star Wars as an example. When the couple of rebel fighters approached the Death Star it should have gone like this : ''Plot a firing solution into the computer to destroy all the rebel fighters", then someone would push a button and bam, all the ships would be gone. Also the Death Star would have had a CAP (combat air patrol), and this is right out of WW2. Not to mention the Death Star would have had a support fleet, again, right out of WW2. Literally even one Star Destroyer could have stopped that attack, and again that is exactly what real destroyers in WW2 did.

    And this does not even mention why the Death Star ''comes out of hyperspace'' on the other side of the gas giant Yavan or why they don't just blow up Yavan.

    But, of course, if any of the above was done....it would ruin the movie.

    Though, yes, it is possible to ''think on the next level'', but not everyone can do that.

    Spoiler: The Last Jedi: Jedi Order and Rae
    Show

    I'm glad a move called out how wrong the Jedi Order was....I always thought so myself.

    And Rae is much better in this movie and not all Mary Sue ''saving the galaxy JUST because she is a woman."

  19. - Top - End - #109
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    I thought they were just following up on Han Solo's hyperdrive shenanigans. If you can hyperdrive past shields
    It wasn't the shields but the DOOR. If anything it goes against what happened. Before it was Hyperdrive through solid matter (A Teleport). Now its just fast acceleration.

    Man I even have to give TFA credit in comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Mando Knight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by S_A_M I AM View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Not saying you're wrong: I just want to know you're opinion before replying in full: Do you think Luke was aware that Rey had the books when he said that he would not be the last Jedi?

    Because I feel that's a very important distinction between him using the term "Jedi" to refer to "People who are able to use the force well" and the term Jedi to refer to "Something similar to the institution that he has been railing against" so "The Jedi Order."

    I'm leaning very strongly towards the former.
    Spoiler
    Show
    "Jedi" is a very specific term, particularly for Luke. If you have someone talking the whole time about how it's time for there to be no more Snickers bars, how this is the last Snickers bar, how Snickers bars are failures, and then he turns around at the end and confidently (defiantly!) says "and this will not be the last Snickers bar" to someone else who despises Snickers bars, he's not talking about a stash of Milky Way bars or Reese's Peanut Butter Cups.

    In the films, the Jedi never refer to generic Force adepts as Jedi any more than Velcro's legal department refers to other hook-and-loop fasteners as Velcro.
    Last edited by Mando Knight; 2017-12-17 at 01:03 PM.
    Avatar by Mr. Saturn

    3DS Friend Code: 4742-9573-4652

  21. - Top - End - #111
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Blackhawk748's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Tharggy, on Tellene
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    It wasn't the shields but the DOOR. If anything it goes against what happened. Before it was Hyperdrive through solid matter (A Teleport). Now its just fast acceleration.

    Man I even have to give TFA credit in comparison.
    Exactly. Hyperdrive is not Warp Drive. You leave real space and enter another dimension, so you can't "ram" anything with Hyperdrive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
    "Mr. Aochev, tear down this wall!" Ro'n Ad-Ri'Gan, Bard
    Tiefling Sorcerer by Linkele
    Spoiler: Homebrew stuff
    Show
    My Spell, My Weapon, Im a God

    My Post Apocalyptic Alternate Timeline setting: Amerhikan Wasteland


    My Historical Stuff channel

  22. - Top - End - #112
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    As I noted originally though, this would still be much cheaper then the casualties lost from fighter swarm engagements. Basically this movie breaks Star Wars.
    And theoretically tactical use of ABC weapons in real life would be cheaper than casualties of infantry warfare, but that's not considered kosher in real life.

    Again, though: it's not thought out to sufficient depth to answer the question. Barring new supplemental material solving this issue, at best we can throw around ideas.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

  23. - Top - End - #113
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    And theoretically tactical use of ABC weapons in real life would be cheaper than casualties of infantry warfare, but that's not considered kosher in real life.

    Again, though: it's not thought out to sufficient depth to answer the question. Barring new supplemental material solving this issue, at best we can throw around ideas.
    Trying to justify the lack of WND usage in a setting where the bad guys are blowing up planets? Even if the good guys were squeemish, the bad guys clearly aren't.

    The problem is that Star Wars justified its conflicts by specific issues. Planets and bases have big shields that can't be easily penetrated, so ground forces have to land outside the shields and advance under them.

    Ships can't jump close in or out of gravity wells, so the rebels can't be straight up jumped and have time to prepare.

    The last three movies have undermined the rules for the entire setting, so now the action has no logic.

    Edit:

    Spoiler
    Show

    I would like to point out a lot of my rage is because the first half of this movie is legit great. Everything before Rey confronts Luke after the cave is fantastic, with good motifs and sharp action. Then it falls apart hard and left me cold and bitter because of it.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2017-12-17 at 01:30 PM.
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

  24. - Top - End - #114
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Reddish Mage's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Place of Great Chi
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Except there is literal precedent for this.

    I don't say things that I don't have prededent for.
    This only shows that Disney decided to punish the LA Times for what it says is biased coverage of its political dealing with a California city by barring that paper from pre-screening.

    What you are suggesting, however, is that Disney is somehow pressuring the community of critics as a whole, including the newspapers of record, to get universal exhuburent coverage of a disappointing movie.

    I can do one better. I recall that pre-screening itself is a sort of a bribe. The producers control who gets to receive an invite and traditionally served food and gift baskets to the critiques that come. I remember a reading that major newspapers critiques didn’t use to go to these.

    Even so, its one thing to know Disney has pre-screening as a carrot and occasionally uses it as a stick, for matters not having to do with the content of reviews, and its quite another to extrapolate that they are successfully herding an entire community of critiques to praise a movie to the high heavens that they all know isn’t really good.

    Is Disney really not going to invite the NYT critique to a movie showing after he gives a bad review? And if Disney did things as obvious as that, would not the NYT complain about it and then would anyone trust the critics on the Disney movies?

    You are reading too much into a story that is not about Disney manipulating the contents of their film criticism. If Disney does these things, the internet is big and people tend to talk, you could find a story that cuts much closer to the heart of the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Exactly. Hyperdrive is not Warp Drive. You leave real space and enter another dimension, so you can't "ram" anything with Hyperdrive.
    No. I recall as early as the Star Wars d6 that hyperdrive leaves a “shadow” in the physical world that means that ships are going FTL need a clear path at all time, or they will collide, fall out of hyperspace, and probably explode.

    Lucas is the one that envisioned hyperdrive as working in this way, and is the reason Star Wars ships use fixed hyperdrive lanes and don’t just go wherever whenever. Only crazy adventurers do blind jumping to establish new hyperspace routes, and smugglers like Han use less established path called “runs” as in “the Kessel run” to avoid the main lanes (and the authorities) and cut travel time by cutting distance (hence making the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs since Han is willing to cut things very close to hyperspace hazards like black holes).
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  25. - Top - End - #115
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by TVTyrant
    Trying to justify the lack of WND usage in a setting where the bad guys are blowing up planets? Even if the good guys were squeemish, the bad guys clearly aren't.
    In real life, Nazi Germany withheld from using BC weapons on the battlefield during the second World War, despite obvious access to them. The horrors of first World War were simply too clear in memory and the fear of retaliation too great.

    This didn't stop them from committing all manners of other atrocities or trying to create an atomic weapon.

    The lesson here is that warfare is more an art than science, and it is actually quite common for even the unscrupulous "bad guys" to act in ways that seem strange in retrospect, for reasons which may be considered emotional, irrational or hypocritical by a neutral observer.

    In the movie, Kylo Ren is a prime example.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Blackhawk748's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Tharggy, on Tellene
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    No. I recall as early as the Star Wars d6 that hyperdrive leaves a “shadow” in the physical world that means that ships are going FTL need a clear path at all time, or they will collide, fall out of hyperspace, and probably explode.

    Lucas is the one that envisioned hyperdrive as working in this way, and is the reason Star Wars ships use fixed hyperdrive lanes and don’t just go wherever whenever. Only crazy adventurers do blind jumping to establish new hyperspace routes, and smugglers like Han use less established path called “runs” as in “the Kessel run” to avoid the main lanes (and the authorities) and cut travel time by cutting distance (hence making the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs since Han is willing to cut things very close to hyperspace hazards like black holes).
    The only thing that can affect a ship in Hyperspace is a massive gravitational force, like a planet or an Interdictor cruiser, its been that way for a very long time now. Maybe originally it had this "shadow" thing, but all of the RPG material after no longer has it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
    "Mr. Aochev, tear down this wall!" Ro'n Ad-Ri'Gan, Bard
    Tiefling Sorcerer by Linkele
    Spoiler: Homebrew stuff
    Show
    My Spell, My Weapon, Im a God

    My Post Apocalyptic Alternate Timeline setting: Amerhikan Wasteland


    My Historical Stuff channel

  27. - Top - End - #117
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    In real life, Nazi Germany withheld from using BC weapons on the battlefield during the second World War, despite obvious access to them. The horrors of first World War were simply too clear in memory and the fear of retaliation too great.

    This didn't stop them from committing all manners of other atrocities or trying to create an atomic weapon.

    The lesson here is that warfare is more an art than science, and it is actually quite common for even the unscrupulous "bad guys" to act in ways that seem strange in retrospect, for reasons which may be considered emotional, irrational or hypocritical by a neutral observer.

    In the movie, Kylo Ren is a prime example.
    Rogue One had both a fleet or rebels and bands of terrorists get stuck on the planetary shields and mass destruction issue with no discussion of refresh rates or ramming a ship into things.

    If it had been brought up at some point and dismissed maybe, but it hasn't and it contradicts things that have been blatantly announced in other films.
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Land of dreams, zzzz
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    It's also possible that only the jump to hyperspace is destructive, not being in hyperspace itself.

    In the film itself ships entering hyperspace have a 'turn into a glowly line' effect, while ships leaving hyperspace appear with a noise. Maybe it's something to do with that 'line' that causes the damage?
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Sweden
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Every main line star wars movie has expanded on the force in some way, and in my opinion this is the first time it's expanded on in a positive way since Return of the Jedi. Not only does it add to the magic of the force but also it is entirely justified if you compare it with the original trilogy.

    What I think a lot of people have issues with is stems from the fact that The Phantom Menace, Clone Wars and Revenge of the Sith gameified the force, it was quantifiable and not mysterious and that's how we liked it. But that was poison to the franchise, it's the opposite of how it was portrayed in the original. The Last Jedi sucked the last drop of that poison out and spit it out.

    Good.
    Yar! I'm a signature virus, copy me into your signature!

    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context, like a savage

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Mando Knight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Possible justifications for the hyperspace ram and other "new-canon is changing everything about hyperdrives!"

    1. "Why couldn't people jump directly into/out of systems before, since they could do it in Rogue One and The Force Awakens?" Those are portrayed as being extremely risky maneuvers. Han didn't want Finn to tell Leia what he was planning on doing because he knew that it's crazy and the Falcon had a huge chance of ending up as a smear of mass-energy on Starkiller Base's shields or a crater on its surface. Poe's X-Wing squadrons can follow up (after the shields are down) in something of a starfighter/hyperspace equivalent of a HALO jump by using the Falcon's success as a reference for the jump calculation. In Rogue One, jumping directly out of the gravity well isn't something that's normally attempted, but it's literally the only option the U-Wing's occupants have to even have a chance at escape. They just have to hope that a relatively blind jump doesn't put them through an object large enough to kill them.
    2. "How does the hyperspace ram tactic work if hyperspace isn't realspace?" There's references to objects casting "mass shadows" into hyperspace, it's possible this is two-way (the hyperspace tracking system that the First Order had apparently perfected needs to work off of some realspace-hyperspace interaction, after all), and/or the jump isn't instantaneous. If the jumping ship's interaction with realspace is non-negligible for even the first light-second or two, then it would act as a mutually-destructive lance against vessels in the way.
    3. "But wait, if it works, why don't they do it all the time? A giant cruiser-killer hyperdrive-missile should be easier to make than the cruisers it kills!" It's inefficient as a kill vehicle, judging by the actual results of the attack. The cruiser rams the Supremacy, but its escorts are only hit by the resulting explosions, and only because a super-dreadnought like the Supremacy is what was rammed... and the last-ditch effort didn't even actually destroy its intended target. It's a mission-kill, sure, but the flagship is definitely salvageable. Hitting a smaller Star Destroyer might not generate enough debris at high enough energy to destroy other (non-shuttle/starfighter) vessels (coring an Executor-class might, but probably not an Imperial or Resurgent-class), particularly at typical Imperial/FO fleet formation distances. Given that one bomber can carry enough munitions to annihilate a Dreadnought and the delivery system is reusable (as long as it isn't destroyed by enemy fire), a carrier-battleship is more attractive to a fleet strapped for resources than automated cruisers turned into hyperspace missiles.
    Avatar by Mr. Saturn

    3DS Friend Code: 4742-9573-4652

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •