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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    It's inefficient as a kill vehicle
    Its hyper-effective. Star Destroyers where semi Jokes before, but in general the idea WAS that you could only really take them out with secret runs or weakspots.

    If it takes an average cruiser to ram and destroy a Super, duper, looper, ultra, pooper bigger then even the freakin eclipse class, mega pega bowaga, starlight sunlight moonlight, bida bang bida boom wanna Star Destroyer then it stops even being a joke and becomes ANNOYING.

    This breaks the higharchy and makes making those mega ships pointless because no matter how powerful the shields are, you can just hyperspace crush them with a ship many magnitutes smaller then it.
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    A little condescending
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Its hyper-effective. Star Destroyers where semi Jokes before, but in general the idea WAS that you could only really take them out with secret runs or weakspots.

    If it takes an average cruiser to ram and destroy a Super, duper, looper, ultra, pooper bigger then even the freakin eclipse class, mega pega bowaga, starlight sunlight moonlight, bida bang bida boom wanna Star Destroyer then it stops even being a joke and becomes ANNOYING.

    This breaks the higharchy and makes making those mega ships pointless because no matter how powerful the shields are, you can just hyperspace crush them with a ship many magnitutes smaller then it.
    Sounds like we've re-invented the C-plus cannon from Saberhagen's Berserker Star, copyright several decades ago.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2017-12-17 at 03:52 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Heck worse even. If we apply the same scaling logic, (17 times smaller ships can take on ships with a ram),

    it means that X wings could take out regular star destroyers or the like (Or at least Millenium falcons or the like could cripple them).
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Heck worse even. If we apply the same scaling logic, (17 times smaller ships can take on ships with a ram),

    it means that X wings could take out regular star destroyers or the like (Or at least Millenium falcons or the like could cripple them).
    It also renders the construction of the Death Star utterly pointless; in the OT the entire starfleet couldn't blow away a planet ... but all you really need is a hyperdrive engine and a mass of any size. Any small or medium sized terrorist group can wipe out a core world.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Opportunities to do good are everywhere but the darkness is where the light needs to be".

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    But now it gives great reasoning for:

    ROUGE 2!

    The Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious class Star Destroyer was an inside job!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
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    A little condescending
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    It also renders the construction of the Death Star utterly pointless; in the OT the entire starfleet couldn't blow away a planet ... but all you really need is a hyperdrive engine and a mass of any size. Any small or medium sized terrorist group can wipe out a core world.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Forget the hyperdrive though. Even with sublight drives you could install those on asteroids and the like and make pretty good RKV probably at FAR more efficient cost than making the Death Star. Maybe you'd need two or something so you could take out the planetary shield first but the amount of energy you can get into something going at relativistic speeds is pretty ridiculous anyways.

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Forget the hyperdrive though. Even with sublight drives you could install those on asteroids and the like and make pretty good RKV probably at FAR more efficient cost than making the Death Star. Maybe you'd need two or something so you could take out the planetary shield first but the amount of energy you can get into something going at relativistic speeds is pretty ridiculous anyways.
    Is this a criticism of The Last Jedi or a criticism of the flawed "science" fantasy of A New Hope?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Is this a criticism of The Last Jedi or a criticism of the flawed "science" fantasy of A New Hope?
    In the original trilogy they explicitly make planetary shielding impervious to everything but the death star, which is why they can't bombard or directly assault Hoth.
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Its hyper-effective. Star Destroyers where semi Jokes before, but in general the idea WAS that you could only really take them out with secret runs or weakspots.

    If it takes an average cruiser to ram and destroy a Super, duper, looper, ultra, pooper bigger then even the freakin eclipse class, mega pega bowaga, starlight sunlight moonlight, bida bang bida boom wanna Star Destroyer then it stops even being a joke and becomes ANNOYING.

    This breaks the higharchy and makes making those mega ships pointless because no matter how powerful the shields are, you can just hyperspace crush them with a ship many magnitutes smaller then it.
    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    It also renders the construction of the Death Star utterly pointless; in the OT the entire starfleet couldn't blow away a planet ... but all you really need is a hyperdrive engine and a mass of any size. Any small or medium sized terrorist group can wipe out a core world.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Turning a 3-km cruiser into a lance of death to rip off one wing of a 60-km wide flagship (not utterly destroy, just break through enough to tear off the wing) is multiple orders of magnitude easier than totally obliterating a core world in an instant. (Just by the volume, the Supremacy is less than 0.5% as wide as an Earth-like planet such as Alderaan. If its mean length and height are about 10 km and 1 km respectively, its ~600 km≥ volume is less than a millionth of Earth's ~1012 km≥ volume.) Make a million Imperial Star Destroyers jump at Alderaan like the Raddus did to the Supremacy, and you'll have a scarred and lifeless planet, but not an uncharted asteroid thicket.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Turning a 3-km cruiser into a lance of death to rip off one wing of a 60-km wide flagship (not utterly destroy, just break through enough to tear off the wing)
    And the wing had a massive amount of the mass, and pretty much create a shockwave to disable both it and other ships near it.
    And why even go for 3 KM ships? Get like 3 1KM ships and distribute the damage.

    And even if we pretend that this isn't the massive amount of damage that it was, it still really makes that kind of ship pointless regardless.

    The idea of these kinds of ships is that they can't be threatened. Thats why you make them that big so you can ratched the shields up to such a point you can't touch them.

    So if all it takes is a Hyperdrive to bypass shields, then you could just arm 50 X wings with them.

    Yeah it won't KILL it, but the damage becomes very significant and makes any gains pointless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    In the original trilogy they explicitly make planetary shielding impervious to everything but the death star, which is why they can't bombard or directly assault Hoth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Turning a 3-km cruiser into a lance of death to rip off one wing of a 60-km wide flagship (not utterly destroy, just break through enough to tear off the wing) is multiple orders of magnitude easier than totally obliterating a core world in an instant. (Just by the volume, the Supremacy is less than 0.5% as wide as an Earth-like planet such as Alderaan. If its mean length and height are about 10 km and 1 km respectively, its ~600 km≥ volume is less than a millionth of Earth's ~1012 km≥ volume.) Make a million Imperial Star Destroyers jump at Alderaan like the Raddus did to the Supremacy, and you'll have a scarred and lifeless planet, but not an uncharted asteroid thicket.
    I feel like you two should talk to each other...
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    I feel like you two should talk to each other...
    You don't need to destroy a planet to break the shielding of a base and destroy it. The damage shown was more then sufficient to kill off the rebel alliance.

    Why risk failure when you can guarantee victory by losing a single ship? Especially when failure means losing multiple?
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    You don't need to destroy a planet to break the shielding of a base and destroy it. The damage shown was more then sufficient to kill off the rebel alliance.

    Why risk failure when you can guarantee victory by losing a single ship? Especially when failure means losing multiple?
    Why risk failure? What risk? The Death Star was utterly indestructible to any amount of fleet power. The Death Star was bested by The Force. (just like Vader all but predicted)

    (for the record I'm not arguing the The Last Jedi makes scientific sense or doesn't have plot holes, I'm arguing that if you think it's any worse than A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Ewoks then you should take off those rose tinted glasses, it was always Wizards in Space, from the very start it was space magic)
    Last edited by Mastikator; 2017-12-17 at 04:59 PM.
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Why risk failure? What risk? The Death Star was utterly indestructible to any amount of fleet power. The Death Star was bested by The Force. (just like Vader all but predicted)
    So they made a redundant and tremendously expensive weapon, lost it, besieged the rebels again on Hoth, were out manuevered, and then lost a third time defending another oversized weapon they never needed.

    Meanwhile the rebels lost their entire airforce destroying the first death star and dozens of carriers destroying the second rarher then ramming them. If light speed ramming works every side goes from plucky/menacing to idiots.
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    So they made a redundant and tremendously expensive weapon, lost it, besieged the rebels again on Hoth, were out manuevered, and then lost a third time defending another oversized weapon they never needed.

    Meanwhile the rebels lost their entire airforce destroying the first death star and dozens of carriers destroying the second rarher then ramming them. If light speed ramming works every side goes from plucky/menacing to idiots.
    How exactly is the Death Star redundant if the Death Star is the only thing that can penetrate planetary shielding? You have to explain this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    How exactly is the Death Star redundant if the Death Star is the only thing that can penetrate planetary shielding? You have to explain this.
    Its Redundant if Hyperspeed can pierce shields.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    How exactly is the Death Star redundant if the Death Star is the only thing that can penetrate planetary shielding? You have to explain this.
    I just did. If you can penetrate shields with only the death star, it is an expensive but viable deterrant to planetary revolts.

    But in the new series they have made it so you can bypass shields by going lightspeed due to their refresh rate, and we have seen the damage that the impact causes. It would be far cheaper to make dummy ramming ships then to make a deathstar, and would destroy the planets inhabitants just the same. You don't need full blown planet destruction to remove a population.
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    So they made a redundant and tremendously expensive weapon, lost it, besieged the rebels again on Hoth, were out manuevered, and then lost a third time defending another oversized weapon they never needed.

    Meanwhile the rebels lost their entire airforce destroying the first death star and dozens of carriers destroying the second rarher then ramming them. If light speed ramming works every side goes from plucky/menacing to idiots.
    Light speed ramming was done by the rebelsí command ship and specifically a suicide run. It doesnít work the same way on different scales. Furthermore, can X-wings even go FTL on their own? I thought they needed a special attachment for that.

    Definitely liked TLJ more than TFA, and I liked TFA. This one is clearly a modern story told in the Star Wars universe - different style of camera work, particularly for action sequences, modern gags (ie close to the beginning, when Luke chucks the Ďsaber behind him), and some very intentional similarities and differentiation. Snokes gets the Palpatine treatment, which is all he deserves; where TFA closely followed ANHís story, TLJ messes with ESB imagery; audience expectations are subverted, whether they want them to be or not. One of the best movies Iíve seen in the past few years, by far.
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Forget the hyperdrive though. Even with sublight drives you could install those on asteroids and the like and make pretty good RKV probably at FAR more efficient cost than making the Death Star. Maybe you'd need two or something so you could take out the planetary shield first but the amount of energy you can get into something going at relativistic speeds is pretty ridiculous anyways.
    Yeah, I did a it of research and it's canon that standard sublight drives (called ion drives, but so unlike the real thing it's not worth using the name) quickly accelerate ships to a few percent of the speed of light, as in under a few hours. These drives are also shown to continuously operate while a ship is running, so we can assume they still provide meaningful acceleration at standard starship speeds.

    So attach a couple of sublight drives to an asteroid say 10m across and launch it when it's at least a day's travel until it reaches your target planet and you've got a great way to kill one. You might need a few of them, but significantly less than are present in an asteroid belt. As a plus, you still have a planet to use for raw materials or terraform as you see fit.

    The problem is that you also essentially need to install a droid brain so your RKV can make course corrections on the way to it's target planet. But that's actually a bonus, launch it from a week away from outside the elliptical (correct word?) plane of the star and by the time it reaches effective weapons range it should be going a significant percentage of c, or enough to make one a planet killer and incredibly hard to target.

    EDIT: for why this isn't done in SW, despite these drives being cheap enough to be mounted on disposable fighters, is because most factions don't want to destroy planets or render them inhabitable, and those that do consider multi-shot weapons to be more suitable to causing fear.
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2017-12-17 at 05:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by JBPuffin View Post
    It doesnít work the same way on different scales.

    How Convenient. The best kind of writing there is! The convenient kind!

    Also X wings already had regular lightspeed drives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Except there is literal precedent for this.

    I don't say things that I don't have prededent for.
    Did you actually read this? The LA Times critics (All of them. Across the entire, very large and vocal outlet) needed to a boycot on Disney reviews before Disney blacklisted them AFTER their outlet called them out after decades of explicit theft and tax evasion. Which was also the cited reason for the boycot.

    Not only is this a very special circumstance rather than some ongoing norm (Hopefully. Because this is still very ****ed up. ) it's the literal opposite of the problem you started talking in conspiratorial terms about.

    Particularly because Disney caved to public pressure on the review thing.

    I actually just saw that Redish Mage wrote about this as well; that you have ignored. Real polite. So I'm leaving that there rather than elaborating.

    Also: Thank you so much for choosing to engage (poorly) with a single line of what I wrote instead of, say, apologising for being brittle and trying to say something substantive.
    I bet you're real fun at parties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
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    "Jedi" is a very specific term, particularly for Luke. If you have someone talking the whole time about how it's time for there to be no more Snickers bars, how this is the last Snickers bar, how Snickers bars are failures, and then he turns around at the end and confidently (defiantly!) says "and this will not be the last Snickers bar" to someone else who despises Snickers bars, he's not talking about a stash of Milky Way bars or Reese's Peanut Butter Cups.

    In the films, the Jedi never refer to generic Force adepts as Jedi any more than Velcro's legal department refers to other hook-and-loop fasteners as Velcro.
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    Does the film ever refer to Force adepts within their dialogue at all? I don't remember.

    But I think you're right anyway. It feels like a more comprehensive read of the rebirth of The Jedi thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    -Snip-

    I can do one better. I recall that pre-screening itself is a sort of a bribe. The producers control who gets to receive an invite and traditionally served food and gift baskets to the critiques that come. I remember a reading that major newspapers critiques didnít use to go to these.

    Even so, its one thing to know Disney has pre-screening as a carrot and occasionally uses it as a stick, for matters not having to do with the content of reviews, and its quite another to extrapolate that they are successfully herding an entire community of critiques to praise a movie to the high heavens that they all know isnít really good.

    -Snip-
    I'm not saying you're wrong but if you can recall a source for what you read to get the impression that a normal pre-screening experience is like that, I'd be interested. Because my understanding comes from stuff like The Spoilerpiece Podcast and they describe it differently. (I have no idea what episode it was from but I can try to find it, if you like.)
    They mention no food that isn't what they bring, an often pretty lackluster viewing experience my impression is that there is generally no special treatment and nobody seemed to be treating it as something particularly special.

    But sure: They might not be typical or particularly large voices in the industry and things could be different for different outlets or for different films. But being some kind of royal bribe doesn't seem to be the norm either.

    The worst stuff I've heard as to how even the product, not just the critic, isn't treated as special or presented in the best light: films seem to fairly often have pre-screenings that are just poorly done, using work cuts or with on site sound and picture issues.

    And my understanding is that for the critic themselves most of the reward for attendance seems to be pre-release access for critics so they can write their stuff their jobs at the same time as each other. An advantage but not necessarily a big one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S_A_M I AM View Post
    I bet you're real fun at parties.
    I am, I just don't put much effort into internet forums, at least not anymore. Not worth the effort. Its a whole bunch of text for stuff that won't have 1/10th the impact of a few words in person would.


    I pointed out how Disney is willing to blacklist and wields massive influence. Its similar to how video game review sites work.
    But as long as Disney Caves to public pressure it removes all problems. Making them very trustworthy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
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    Somethings that are on topic so I can justify this post to myself:
    This is a piece of genuinely good film writing.
    This short video is delightful and they've obviously practiced a fair bit for their choreography to be as good as it is.
    Here is some more information about what has been going on with the audience response as shown on the various review aggregate sites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    I am, I just don't put much effort into internet forums, at least not anymore. Not worth the effort. Its a whole bunch of text for stuff that won't have 1/10th the impact of a few words in person would.


    I pointed out how Disney is willing to blacklist and wields massive influence. Its similar to how video game review sites work.
    But as long as Disney Caves to public pressure it removes all problems. Making them very trustworthy.
    Never said they should be trusted and I would elaborate but....

    Combined with your facetious tantrum earlier? I think I can safely ignore you.

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    This movie was bad. It didn't... do anything. It abandoned threads from The Force Awakens and didn't really set anything up for the next film in the series. Particular gripes in spoiler tags:

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    - The plot was total nonsense and incredibly weak. So... they're just chasing down a ship for the entire movie? I'm glad Hux decides to keep ineffectually firing on their shields to "let them know we're still here" or these scenes would have been even more obviously lazy and boring. The bad thing about stuff like this is that your mind immediately begins to think "can't they do something else?". It's just not believable that the First Order doesn't have a way to deal with the rebel cruiser other than follow them. The command to pull back the fighters because "we can't cover you" is very obviously done simply for the plot. Can't they call in reinforcements? Were we literally seeing the entirety of the First Order chasing down the entirety of the Rebels?

    Further, later on it's absolutely laughable that the thief has to suggest to the First Order to scan for cloaked transporters. Either cloaking technology isn't ubiquitous enough for the First Order to consider it (we know this isn't the case lol) or they should have been scanning for it. And if the latter is the case, I'm not sure why Leia assures Poe that the First Order has no way of detecting the transporters, unless the First Order are the first ones to develop cloak-spotting technology, right alongside light=speed tracking technology.

    - Poe was pretty popular in The Force Awakens, and a hero in the events of that movie. This movie almost seems like the movie creators felt the need to tear him down a bit. When the movie starts, he leads the attack that destroys the Dreadnought, but the audience is made to believe that this was not a good thing because too many people died (partly because of a ridiculous chain reaction when one of the bombers explodes and takes down like three other bombers with it). So this begins Poe's arc in this movie, which is that his heroics are not always the right move. Thing is... it seemed that Leia changed the orders at the last second. It didn't seem that Poe was being needlessly heroic so much as he was enacting the plan they already agreed upon, and still enacted it after it was determined unnecessary (because everyone was already evacuated). The rest of the movie though, he's just portrayed as wrong. Sort of. It's an obvious thing that the vice admiral should have filled him in, so instead they gave her a chip on her shoulder so that she keeps Poe in the dark. So Poe of course thinks the rebels are doomed to die, and he takes actions to save them. And his actions lead to many of their deaths. But... what was he supposed to do here? Still, it's considered a teachable moment for him. Then on the snow planetoid, he leads a failed attack against the battering ram. I don't know. I don't think I like this. He went from hotshot starfighter rebel hero to... someone that accomplished very little in this movie and now has to question his choices. I guess the arc is at the end when he holds Finn back and realizes that Luke is there to buy the time. But it begs the question why Luke didn't tell them that in the first place and instead left them to figure it out on their own (not to mention why the base doesn't have a second egress). It seems manufactured for the benefit of Poe's arc, which in turn was not very compelling or satisfying.

    - Luke. Holy ****ing ****. So much for me to hate here. The problem with **** like this is that they don't give us Luke. They abandon the character and simply use the name for the sake of plot. So Vader, who killed children, who betrayed his brothers and sisters and hunted them down across the galaxy, who was the attack dog and enforcer of the Empire for decades, Vader is still redeemable in the eyes of Luke Skywalker. But a ten year old boy that, so far as we know, hasn't done anything yet, he needs to be put down?

    So Luke, who threw his lightsaber to the ground before Vader and Sidious, in an attempt to save his father's soul, this same Luke ignited his lightsaber with the intent to kill a sleeping child? How? How did this happen? What in the **** happened to bring us here? I mean... this is a serious departure. Did Snoke have mental communication with Ben? Were these forced mental intrusions? Could he control the boy? Was Ben being driven mad? What happened that made LUKE SKYWALKER consider, even if for a moment, that he had to murder a sleeping boy?

    Then we go the route of Ben Kenobi and Yoda. You failed at one thing, so you just hide away on a planet and do nothing for the rest of your years. Heroes abdicating their responsibilities is one of my biggest pet peeves.

    I obviously didn't like any of this, but I'm wondering if the people excited to see Luke actually enjoyed all the scenes we got. I mean... it was just him walking around the island telling Rey "no". Similar to JL, we're being told that the resistance *needs* Luke. But what he did at the end was buy them some time. But I'm not so sure he was necessary for that given that Rey and Chewie fit everyone on the Falcon with no problems. So they masterminded a base with no other exit except for this hidden one. We just need time to find it. Enter Luke ex machina. He didn't even teach Rey anything. I don't know. I mean, what the **** was the point?? I guess the Force doesn't want Yoda to train Rey either? (Does she need it?)

    - Kylo Ren. I really want to like Kylo, because I think he had a good first impression in The Force Awakens. He is stronger than almost every other force user we've seen so far. But his character goes down hill from there. This movie has him basically tread water. So... Kylo is conflicted. To get over this, he kills his father. But we see that he is still conflicted. And he ends up not being able to actually kill his mother. Rey believes he can be turned. Luke doesn't. From a meta perspective, it doesn't seem he can be turned because who then would be the villain? Unless they power up Hux in some fashion, Kylo is the villain. The problem is I don't really know why he's doing what he's doing. Snoke seduced him, but Snoke is dead now (telegraphed pretty obviously after Rey said "you don't kneel before Snoke"). Kylo wants to rule, but why? To what end? What is he looking for? If the past makes you weak, why can't you be weak? What do you need to be strong for? You killed Snoke, so now you control the First Order. For what ends? Don't know. Not sure Kylo knows, but he is a less compelling villain for it. At some point his inner turmoil has to coalesce into something focused and solid, otherwise we just won't care. At this point, the good guys have won twice. There is only one movie left. Presumably they win again. So why do we care?

    - There's a slew of other things that I didn't like or thought were weird:

    -- Leia's fakeout "death" and weird glowy return to the ship. I thought it was her spirit, but it turns out it was actually her. Pointless and strange.
    -- The whole casino planet part just seemed like filler. And the commentary on war profiteers seemed out of place and needless as well.
    -- Phasma, not again lol. Everyone dying except Phasma, Finn, and Rose was obvious and silly. Show us other injured survivors or crew members mitigating damage, etc.
    -- Why did Rose object to Finn sacrificing himself if she intended to sacrifice herself as well? She said "we win not by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love" (I don't quite recall if she said love, so maybe that's the answer). But this line is punctuated by the battering ram punching through the doors. Finn was literally trying to save the rebels. His actions are in line with her thinking, and her actions are also in line with his actions (in principle). Seemed inconsistent.
    -- Hux. This guy is cartoonish. Kylo is already struggling to be a compelling villain, and Hux doesn't really offer much himself.
    -- Rey lies to Luke about her communication with Kylo. This is annoying because it is simply done for the plot. Like the admiral blowing Poe off and not sharing her plans with him. And Luke obsessing over his failure and giving up completely. The story exists because no one acts like an adult.

    Anyways, this movie was bad. I didn't feel anything really after it was over. There isn't even a cliffhanger or anything. I guess the First Order is conquering still. So even though the good guys won, we'll get the opening scroll in the next film telling us how the First Order has the entire galaxy under its iron fist and the rebels are working one some secret plan to blah blah blah. I don't know, whatever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    I am, I just don't put much effort into internet forums, at least not anymore. Not worth the effort. Its a whole bunch of text for stuff that won't have 1/10th the impact of a few words in person would.
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  26. - Top - End - #146
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    So i just came back from it. It gets a C-, this movie barely scrapes a pass for me.

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    Ok, the opening fight, we start off bad. Poe stalling. This was good, kinda funny and its a viable tactic. Poe then using space NOS to somehow get under the dreadnoughts shields is not good and rather odd. Whatever, i can forgive that. What i cant forgive is how utterly incapable of dealing with a fighter that Dreadnought is, that was just embarrassing.

    Then the bombers. Oh dear god where those bombers awful. Not only do they use gravity drop bombs but they drop them in such an idiotic way that they wind up dropping almost half of them onto an active explosion. Plus they are the size of small freighters and are stupidly slow. Go get some Y Wings and do Star Wars bombing right, as in, with torpedoes.

    Luke and Rey. I actually liked all of this, as i feel this helped Rey's characterization from the last film. Its still not perfect, but it does what it needs to in my opinion.

    The out of fuel subplot. This entire thing kills the movie. Nearly every complaint i have stems from it. Firstly, why do the half dozen Star Destroyers with the Supremacy do literally nothing the entire time? Secondly, why do they keep shooting them for 18 hours when it does nothing? Thirdly, why did you make Poe suck? Fourthly, did they all forget they had TIE fighters? For god sake, with what 3 of them did to that cruiser you'd think the 500+ TIEs that fleet has could rip the Rebels apart. Fifthly, why, by all that is holy, does the Supremacy's Turbolaser shots arc? You are in space, things dont arc you morons. And finally, why does the Supremacy apparently only have like 3 guns? Seriously, that fire rate is atrocious.

    Rey-Kylo thing. Mixed feelings here, but it did give both of them character growth, so that was nice. Could have been better, could have been way worse.

    Finn and Rose. Like their subplot, it was kinda fun.

    On the Supremacy. Kinda meh here, but the backstab was nice, didnt see it coming. Capt Phasma once more doesnt need to exist. Rather glad that they show armor working with her. The whole sequence towards the end when they are flipping around to everyone, reminds me of a very badly constructed version of the Battle Of Endor. Unlike RotJ, this feels clumsy and poorly done and just makes it all more confusing, cuz how long where they kneeling in that hangar?

    Kylo vs Snoke. I liked this scene. Still not enough payoff for it, but it was well constructed and the ensuing fight was pretty neat (more armor actually working). The Lightsaber Whip Swords are stupid.

    Super Ram. This scene was dumb. You could have achieved the same thing by putting all the shields to full front and overloading the engines as you rammed the Supremacy. Now you've opened up all these questions as to why the Separatists didnt just do this with their Droid fleet.

    Hoth 2 Electric Bugaloo. Didnt like this. No real payoff, Rose ramming Finn was just dumb, the cannon is nowhere near as impressive as it should be. The new AT Ats look neat though and i did like the Astral Projection trick.

    Luke fading away. Completely pointless. Theres no actual payoff for this other than me being annoyed.


    TL:DR It could have been good, but it got dragged down by a stupid subplot and thats the worst part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    No please don't spend so much time online, don't wait up on our account, you deserve to go out more, forget about us. I think your spending way too much time online, you should spend less for your own health.
    No such luck Lord Raziere. I enjoy hearing opinions I disagree with. Unlike some people I know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    No such luck Lord Raziere. I enjoy hearing opinions I disagree with. Unlike some people I know.
    You two need to either stop talking or just kiss already, because this back and forth is getting old real fast.
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    Overall: A good movie. I liked the way it simultaneously clung to and pushed away from the skeleton of the Original Trilogy. You constantly knew sort of what would happen, but were also unclear about exactly how it would play out.

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    The leia decompression scene was gorgeously done, and I'm glad they canonized her as a force user.

    Take 1: Decompression for short periods of time is pretty survivable. I don't remember exactly how long she's out there, but if it were around the 2 minute mark, it wouldn't be unbelievable for her to be resuscitated. Modern science calls it quits around the 90 second mark, but we don't have bacta tanks. All she really needs is one good push.

    From a Wizards in Space and Movie Environmental Hazards standpoint, "Jedi can survive being frozen solid" doesn't seem crazy. Science fiction is full of dudes being thawed from glaciers, and we all know that Movie Space freezes things solid instantly.



    Spoiler: Casino
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    Star Wars has always had something of an anti-materialist, anti-imperialist (Hah!) thing going on. The Forces of Good tend to be farmhands, hermits, and spear-throwing natives. This isn't always presented in a super consistent or coherent way because it is first and foremost about swords and or sorceries, but I don't think the casino scene is particularly out of place tonally. It also gives us time for Finn and Rose to interact some more.


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    I felt like this movie had very modernized language, which felt a little out of place. Is this because they genuinely shifted to a more 'realistic' strain of dialogue from a more archaic 'epic' way of speaking in the older movies? Or am I misremembering New Hope? Or, is it possible that New Hope feels like everyone talks like wizards because it came out a hundred years before I was born, and is just full of 1917's language because that's when it was made?


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    I'm squarely in the "This is dumb, but Star Wars is and has always been dumb" camp. Bombing scene bothered me zero, outside of a faint tickle that reminded me of my Star Wars Battlefront 2 days on the Xbox. Ramming scene did momentarily bother me, but it was so gorgeously presented I almost immediately shrugged and said "Star Wars" (silently, because I was in a theatre)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    How Convenient. The best kind of writing there is! The convenient kind!

    Also X wings already had regular lightspeed drives.
    You know, you couldíve quoted me asking if they did along with the part you wanted to condescend...

    Also, the rebel command ship is larger than an X-Wing by a scale factor. It wasnít an X-Wing that took out the Star Destroyer Dreadnought - it was a ship somewhere between 5 and 10x that size. If you think that means an X-Wing can take out a Star Destroyer, or that the command ship couldíve take ln out the Death Star, you may have forgotten how math works.
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