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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    No such luck Lord Raziere. I enjoy hearing opinions I disagree with. Unlike some people I know.
    cool story bro.

    Not my fault if you prefer to be miserable and bang your head uselessly against the internet.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2017-12-17 at 07:04 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by S_A_M I AM View Post
    Somethings that are on topic so I can justify this post to myself:
    This is a piece of genuinely good film writing.
    I have a problem with a core assumption of this article.

    It says that part of the point is to allow Star Wars to do something new. But if Star Wars isn't going to be Star Wars, why should I watch Star Wars.

    I like different things. I've recently made my way through the Night's Dawn Trilogy, Revelation Space, the first two Lensman books, the Commonwealth Saga, and most of Leviathan Wakes. None of these are like Star Wars, but I went to see The Last Jedi.

    Because I wanted to see Star Wars.

    Maybe Star Wars with a few twists, but what I wanted to see wasn't 'burning Star Wars to the ground' (wasn't that done when they threw out the old EU?). If I'd wanted to see something that wasn't Star Wars I'd have stayed in and finally got round to watching Wrath of Khan. But I wanted to see Star Wars, there was a Star Wars film in the cinema, and so I went to see Star Wars. What I got was a two hour long space chase with a kinda Star Wasy subplot trying to convince me to forget Star Wars and the Jedi because Solar Conflicts and the Smedi will be better, before going 'fooled you! Solar Conflicts is the new Star Wars'.

    So if the intent was really to burn down Star Wars and give me something new, I don't care. I watch Star Wars films and read Star Wars books to get Star Wars, if it's not Star Wars I might was well finish Skylark Three.

    Plus Star Wars being fresh and radical at any point sounds as hilarious as the words 'Josuha Calvert did not get at least two women pregnant without realising it'. It took inspiration from everything and anything, it's just that it presented it with good effects and an engaging way. There's nothing wrong with that, but we shouldn't forget that ANH wasn't ever something that had never been seen before, even space wizards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    Spoiler: Language
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    I felt like this movie had very modernized language, which felt a little out of place. Is this because they genuinely shifted to a more 'realistic' strain of dialogue from a more archaic 'epic' way of speaking in the older movies? Or am I misremembering New Hope? Or, is it possible that New Hope feels like everyone talks like wizards because it came out a hundred years before I was born, and is just full of 1917's language because that's when it was made?
    Spoiler: Not a spoiler but eh
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    I think this is actually a pretty solid observaton. Georgie Porgie Puddin' and Pie was noted to write somewhat stilted dialogue back in the day but I've also seen it praised as a decent way to emulate the strange, declarative dialogue of the old serials he was emulating and further emphasise the "Classic Arthurian Feel" Lucas was going for.

    Both of which feel kind of wrong to me so it feels more like people were noticing and trying to find meaning behind a tangible detail, Room 237 style.
    Last edited by S_A_M I AM; 2017-12-17 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Formatting mistake

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBPuffin View Post
    Also, the rebel command ship is larger than an X-Wing by a scale factor. It wasnít an X-Wing that took out the Star Destroyer Dreadnought - it was a ship somewhere between 5 and 10x that size. If you think that means an X-Wing can take out a Star Destroyer, or that the command ship couldíve take ln out the Death Star, you may have forgotten how math works.
    Sorry I may have misrepresented myself:

    I didn't mean that a X wing could take out a Star Dreadnaught, I meant that it means that extremly significantly smaller ships can do much more damage to extremly larger ships now with suicide runs.

    That scaling means that a Regular Imperial star destroyer can be taken out with a hyperspace jump from a ship 17 times smaller then itself. And if not taken out then significantly damaged.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Not my fault if you prefer to be miserable and bang your head uselessly against the internet.
    Honestly right now, Im as happy as a clam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    You guys can do a little more effort to avoid un-hidden spoilers? Thanks!!

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Honestly right now, Im as happy as a clam.
    Right. Keep telling yourself that. Between your caustic negative criticism of everyone and everything. and bitterness.

    10/10 much truth. So believable. wow.
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Still a little bit movie-hungover so it might take a day or two for actual critical analysis to start in my brain, but right now it was a good sci-fi action adventure. My immediate gut reaction while watching and emotions while thinking about it is better than what I had after TFA, and I'm still excited for the series going forward.

    Stuff I liked:
    Spoiler
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    • Leia force floating. Beautiful and badass at the same time.
    • Luke quitting his day job as jedi and becoming a full time sassmaster.
    • Rey is still not a Mary Sue.
    • Kylo killing Snoke, not as a redemption but as a way of establishing himself as a villain in his own right. We are done with villains who serve under a master. This is new, and it's good.
    • Ship ramming at light speed was breath taking. My entire theater went silent.
    • Luke's astral projecting. What an amazing finish.
    • Finn and Rose as characters.



    Stuff I'm lukewarm about:
    Spoiler
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    • Finn and Rose's subplot. Definitely the weakest part of the movie.
    • Finn and Rose romantic relationship. Meh.
    • Rey keeping the jedi texts. It cheapened the tree burning a bit for me, but I've read some interesting takes on it now afterwards, so maybe I'll come around on this one.
    • Rey's parents having no point. On one hand, I can totally get behind a narrative that tells us heroes can come from anywhere. On the other, TFA made a huge deal out of the mystery, so the payoff is a bit weak.



    Stuff I disliked:
    Spoiler
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    • The thief guy escaped from prison... why? Seriously, did I completely miss something here? It wasn't because he got two new cellmates as backup, since he immediately ran away from them.
    • Too little Phasma, again! That peeved me. At least her fight was pretty cool and she did serve her purpose as a miniboss, but still.

    Last edited by Cizak; 2017-12-17 at 07:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    10/10 much truth. So believable. wow.
    It may be hard to believe, but some people don't need nonstop validation to be happy.

    Im watching DS9 right now, and enjoying my butt off with space battles I enjoy and characters that are not suicidal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Cizak View Post
    Stuff I disliked:
    Spoiler
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    • The thief guy escaped from prison... why? Seriously, did I completely miss something here? It wasn't because he got two new cellmates as backup, since he immediately ran away from them.
    • Too little Phasma, again! That peeved me. At least her fight was pretty cool and she did serve her purpose as a miniboss, but still.

    Spoiler: Response
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    You're spot on that thing 1 was pretty dumb. I think that character could've been fleshed out a little more, but the movie was already quite long so I suspect some scenes were cut for time.

    It's been said above that Phasma isn't really meant to be a neat unique character, but an avatar of The Stormtroopers, so Finn has someone to argue with and punch. This is true and right, but she's also the new Boba Fett, which means she exists to be aesthetically alluring but deeply unfulfilling, so it is Good And Righteous that she be on screen only long enough to frustrate you. Alternatively, I have stockholm syndrome.
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    I cam here to talk about The Last Jedi a.k.a. the BEST STAR WARS (besides Rogue One...maybe...) and I see people arguing REAL SCIENCE?

    Guys, no. No. Bad.
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    Ninjadeadbeard just ninja'd my post. How apt.
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    Spoiler: Casino and Phasma
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    Too bad they did not make the Casino a bit more an important part of the movie. Like Finn and Rose and Commander Jones are sent there for some important item.

    You could have the nice bit where Commander Jones is revealed to be a scoundrel, buying weapons and items from the ''evil'' dealers. So like with people dying he is sipping wine and talking about credits and such.

    And, have a twist where Phasma is at the Casino too...buying for the bad guys, of course. You could have a nice bit of the actress in a gold dress where ''some watchers'' would not know who she was. And you'd have ''traitor fight'', have her fall off a cliff, and have them escape with...um..JD.



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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Right. Keep telling yourself that. Between your caustic negative criticism of everyone and everything. and bitterness.
    Actually I think Scowling has been making a lot of sense here, and its not just that Iím disappointed in this movie, I think he is pointing out exactly the things that irk about the movie and where the writers were taking things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Actually I think Scowling has been making a lot of sense here, and its not just that Iím disappointed in this movie, I think he is pointing out exactly the things that irk about the movie and where the writers were taking things.
    Much as I rip on his and Raziere's ...odd... courting rituals, his logic isn't off, and it isn't unique to him. Most of the lengthier reviews in the aggregates and the more popular youtubers have the same logic. It's not unique to him, it's something literal thousands of people are realizing independent of each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I don't care what you feel.
    That pretty much sums up the Jayngfet experience.
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    Okay, so after reflecting on it for awhile, I think I've about pinned down the things that bothered me about it, a lot of which has already been said in the thread, but here goes.

    It feels like Rian Johnson knows what goes into a Star Wars movie. The plucky heroes, the lightsaber battles, redemption stories, Star Destroyers, starfighters, etc. He definitely knows these things. But he then chucked them all into a blender, poured out the resulting soup, and screened it. Much of the plot - such as it is - relies on the characters either being complete fools or having knowledge that they should have no way to possess.

    For instance: Apparently the heroes SOMEHOW know that the First Order's Star Destroyers can track ships through hyperspace - evidently not even needing to be present when they jump, since Snoke's ship wasn't - which had previously only been achieved through Vader following the Tantive IV using the Force after seeing it escape right in front of him. Yet somehow, they ALSO know that despite every ship in the pursuing armada having this ability, only one of them will be using it at a time. For some inscrutable reason.

    Then there's the random criminal dude they broke out of prison at the casino (where apparently EVERYONE present was in the arms trade, because as we all know, there are no other ways to make money!). I was kind of on board with that right up until he cut a deal with the First Order. And not because he did that; he's a random criminal dude, who should be expected to do that kind of thing. No, because of Finn's exact question: "With what?" What did he give the First Order to get them to agree to pay him, give him a ship, and let him go? Was it an unexpected yet inevitable betrayal, telling them that the break-in was in progress? No, he turned after being caught. What then? He told them about the Resistance plan to escape their cruiser in cloaked transports ("No ship that small has a cloaking device!"). HOW DID HE KNOW THAT? Finn and Rose didn't know about it; how would he possibly have learned? (And then Hux lets him go before ascertaining the truth of his report. "Will wonders never cease," indeed.)

    Then there's the general lack of military sense displayed by anyone in the movie except for the First Order admiral who dies on the Dreadnought in the beginning. The First Order had many ships. Those ships had hyperdrives, and apparently much larger fuel reserves than the Resistance cruisers. Why not jump out, jump back in ahead of them, and cut them off?

    So, the Millennium Falcon can jump out of hyperspace right in front of a Star Destroyer, drop off an object, and jump out... and they just take it on board. If they're that stupid, send them a bomb.

    A real head-banger: They made a big deal about getting to a base facility with enough power to broadcast a distress call, but they can apparently call Maz Kanata right up to quiz her about ways to disable tracking beacons, so apparently they could have just done that from the cruiser. They didn't.

    And finally, IF IT'S THAT EASY TO KILL CAPITAL SHIPS WITH FIGHTERS, WHY THE EVERLOVING HOLY HELL DO THEY HAVE CAPITAL SHIPS? Jesus tapdancing Christ on a pogo stick!

    I just can't even.
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    Id say whilst they can Ratched up the stakes as high or low as they want for the future films, but after this level of break inconsistency, I can't even be bothered to actually care.

    The First order can just keep pulling ships out the bum, and the Rebellion is always on the verge of defeat but never actually makes plans or has anything substantial to build.
    The Force can pull messiahs out of thin air, so whats to say it can't do it again?
    Everything is too wibbly wobbly. Its one thing to rock the table, but this was more like breaking the tables legs.

    I expect an aggressive amount of Retcons in the sequel. Or "Oh that was just a specific thing we can't do it again" or "Oh man they are so clever, now their shields are ram proof!"
    Which is like duct tape fixes really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Spoiler
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    Okay, so after reflecting on it for awhile, I think I've about pinned down the things that bothered me about it, a lot of which has already been said in the thread, but here goes.

    It feels like Rian Johnson knows what goes into a Star Wars movie. The plucky heroes, the lightsaber battles, redemption stories, Star Destroyers, starfighters, etc. He definitely knows these things. But he then chucked them all into a blender, poured out the resulting soup, and screened it. Much of the plot - such as it is - relies on the characters either being complete fools or having knowledge that they should have no way to possess.

    For instance: Apparently the heroes SOMEHOW know that the First Order's Star Destroyers can track ships through hyperspace - evidently not even needing to be present when they jump, since Snoke's ship wasn't - which had previously only been achieved through Vader following the Tantive IV using the Force after seeing it escape right in front of him. Yet somehow, they ALSO know that despite every ship in the pursuing armada having this ability, only one of them will be using it at a time. For some inscrutable reason.

    Then there's the random criminal dude they broke out of prison at the casino (where apparently EVERYONE present was in the arms trade, because as we all know, there are no other ways to make money!). I was kind of on board with that right up until he cut a deal with the First Order. And not because he did that; he's a random criminal dude, who should be expected to do that kind of thing. No, because of Finn's exact question: "With what?" What did he give the First Order to get them to agree to pay him, give him a ship, and let him go? Was it an unexpected yet inevitable betrayal, telling them that the break-in was in progress? No, he turned after being caught. What then? He told them about the Resistance plan to escape their cruiser in cloaked transports ("No ship that small has a cloaking device!"). HOW DID HE KNOW THAT? Finn and Rose didn't know about it; how would he possibly have learned? (And then Hux lets him go before ascertaining the truth of his report. "Will wonders never cease," indeed.)

    Then there's the general lack of military sense displayed by anyone in the movie except for the First Order admiral who dies on the Dreadnought in the beginning. The First Order had many ships. Those ships had hyperdrives, and apparently much larger fuel reserves than the Resistance cruisers. Why not jump out, jump back in ahead of them, and cut them off?

    So, the Millennium Falcon can jump out of hyperspace right in front of a Star Destroyer, drop off an object, and jump out... and they just take it on board. If they're that stupid, send them a bomb.

    A real head-banger: They made a big deal about getting to a base facility with enough power to broadcast a distress call, but they can apparently call Maz Kanata right up to quiz her about ways to disable tracking beacons, so apparently they could have just done that from the cruiser. They didn't.

    And finally, IF IT'S THAT EASY TO KILL CAPITAL SHIPS WITH FIGHTERS, WHY THE EVERLOVING HOLY HELL DO THEY HAVE CAPITAL SHIPS? Jesus tapdancing Christ on a pogo stick!

    I just can't even.
    Gonna second all of this. You're basically on the money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
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    Then there's the random criminal dude they broke out of prison at the casino (where apparently EVERYONE present was in the arms trade, because as we all know, there are no other ways to make money!). I was kind of on board with that right up until he cut a deal with the First Order. And not because he did that; he's a random criminal dude, who should be expected to do that kind of thing. No, because of Finn's exact question: "With what?" What did he give the First Order to get them to agree to pay him, give him a ship, and let him go? Was it an unexpected yet inevitable betrayal, telling them that the break-in was in progress? No, he turned after being caught. What then? He told them about the Resistance plan to escape their cruiser in cloaked transports ("No ship that small has a cloaking device!"). HOW DID HE KNOW THAT? Finn and Rose didn't know about it; how would he possibly have learned? (And then Hux lets him go before ascertaining the truth of his report. "Will wonders never cease," indeed.)
    Spoiler
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    This is one of the few things in your post I don't quite agree with. I ended up with the vague idea that he was already contracted by the FO to the tune of 'if anybody comes along and tries to use you to get on one of our ships use this to sneak onboard and then signal us'. Not said by the movie, but it feels like a reasonable explanation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    If everyone is special... no one is.
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by S_A_M I AM View Post
    Spoiler: Thoughts about a small element of a good movie
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    It really is nice to see people in universe say that the Jedi were bad but...

    Without having to get into the Fashy stuff: the Jedi were inadequate caregivers for their students that makes falling to the dark side more likely. Particularly how they're approaching raising/ creating emotionally healthy people. Curtailing emotional connections between people isolates them and makes them more likely to imprint and rely more heavily on people who are providing emotional support to them.
    [snip]

    Don't get me wrong: If a system has created three galactic scale space tyrants within about 40 years of each other, that's a MASSIVE criticism of the system but it's ignoring a more mundane form of harm that is not shown to be resolved when The Jedi are affirmed at the end of the movie.

    Just that Luke wasn't enough.

    Not sure how I feel about that.
    Late to the party, as always.
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    A system that creates three galactic scale space tyrants within about 40 years of each other, after 25,000 years of that system being in place. Sorry, I'm not buying a massive criticism of the system. Especially when the third galactic scale space tyrant was after the system was burned down by the first two (a feat that has no guarantee could be repeated, if the Order grew to its same size again).
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    It was alright... a competent movie but not a very good star wars movie. Rian Johnson is really taking a blowtorch to everything he doesn't like int he franchise so he can do his own thing in the future, to the point where I felt like Kylo Ren's ''let the past die, kill it if you have to'' thing was the director talking to us more than the him talking to Rey.
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Here is a take on the movie from someone who thinks the blowtorch message is profound and necessary after JJ Abrams basically made a total retread.

    http://www.slashfilm.com/page/2/


    I think film critics may be giving this such great reviews percisely because they appreciate the ďbreak with the pastĒ theme. Perhaps, however, most critics also donít care much for Star Wars as a phenomenon beyond just being another set of action movies.

    As much as there now has to be something new in Episode IX, the chance of Rian Johnson getting to do that movie is not certain. Disney decided to hire him in the first place as an unknown, and their plan has been to get several directors doing their own thing with Star Wars from the beginning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    If that's how critics are rating the movie, I think they're missing the point. It's just not that great of a movie, regardless of if it's trying to break from the past and do new things.

    You can do that and either do it well or do it poorly. This movie leans heavily toward the "poorly" part.
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  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I just did. If you can penetrate shields with only the death star, it is an expensive but viable deterrant to planetary revolts.

    But in the new series they have made it so you can bypass shields by going lightspeed due to their refresh rate, and we have seen the damage that the impact causes. It would be far cheaper to make dummy ramming ships then to make a deathstar, and would destroy the planets inhabitants just the same. You don't need full blown planet destruction to remove a population.
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    They penetrated the shields of a star destroyer, not planetary shields. The Dreadnought of the first order had special weapons for planetary bombardment. It is still the case that only a death star can immediately destroy an entire planet AND it has the shield equivalent of a planet. IE only another death star (or The Force) is sufficient to defeat a Death Star.

    It's anything but redundant.

    The lead ships also had new tracking technology. New inventions. The galaxy is NOT in a technological stasis. New technology is invented. Nothing from the old movies are invalidated when new technology is invented.
    Last edited by Mastikator; 2017-12-18 at 11:50 AM.
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    They penetrated the shields of a star destroyer, not planetary shields. The Dreadnought of the first order had special weapons for planetary bombardment. It is still the case that only a death star can immediately destroy an entire planet AND it has the shield equivalent of a planet. IE only another death star (or The Force) is sufficient to defeat a Death Star.

    It's anything but redundant.

    The lead ships also had new tracking technology. New inventions. The galaxy is NOT in a technological stasis. New technology is invented. Nothing from the old movies are invalidated when new technology is invented.
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    In A Force Awakens the Falcon flies through the planetary shields of the (god awful) Starkiller Base by flying through the shields at light speed. In this movie they show that you can apocalyptcally ram something by hitting it at light speed. If you don't see the problem with those two facts and their implications for the movies fine, we can go on our merry way.

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    In other news, I really liked the dreadnought scene and was a little irritated when Poe isn't given credit later on for it. If they had been running away and it was operational it would have killed them early on.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2017-12-18 at 11:52 AM.

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
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    They penetrated the shields of a star destroyer, not planetary shields.
    Han penetrated planetary shields in The Force Awakens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
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    IE only another death star (or The Force) is sufficient to defeat a Death Star.
    Or a well-placed shot. They didn't need the Force, it just helped.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2017-12-18 at 11:53 AM.
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    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Fans generally hate it.

    Critics generally like it because it has the balls to not care that the fans will hate it.

    One of the highest grossing movies ever.

    Strange times.
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Fans generally hate it.

    Critics generally like it because it has the balls to not care that the fans will hate it.

    One of the highest grossing movies ever.

    Strange times.
    Seems logical to me. The nu-Star Trek movies share nothing with Star Trek in the form of philosophy, motifs or pacing but made money so they kept up on them. Transformers are hated by everyone, but people still go see them.

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Star Wars is a huge brand name. It could be 2.5 hrs of a butt on screen, and it'd still sell amazing amounts, as people are going based of the name, trailer, and nostalgia.

    After they've seen it, sure, they hate it, and rate it horribly, but...they've already spent the money.
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