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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

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    Now that you mention that thorgrim, I think that is how Snoke confirms the defeat, in the context of Han's murder.

    That doesn't bode well for Kylo then, because if his inner conflict is a weakness, well... he still has it. He couldn't kill his mom. I don't think he would have killed Snoke if not for Rey leading him to that decision. And for the second time he is not interested in killing Rey so much as bringing her over to his side.

    So I'm not sure what Kylo wants and I don't think he knows either. The title scroll of Episode VIIII should read "Kylo Ren has totally gotten his **** together and has more resolve than anyone in the galaxy and is totally dedicated to killing everyone that disagrees with him, even if they are Rey..."
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
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    Now that you mention that thorgrim, I think that is how Snoke confirms the defeat, in the context of Han's murder.

    That doesn't bode well for Kylo then, because if his inner conflict is a weakness, well... he still has it. He couldn't kill his mom. I don't think he would have killed Snoke if not for Rey leading him to that decision. And for the second time he is not interested in killing Rey so much as bringing her over to his side.

    So I'm not sure what Kylo wants and I don't think he knows either. The title scroll of Episode VIIII should read "Kylo Ren has totally gotten his **** together and has more resolve than anyone in the galaxy and is totally dedicated to killing everyone that disagrees with him, even if they are Rey..."
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    Episode IX: Kylo Ren has totally gotten his **** together

    I am all for this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Thanks for correcting my roman numerals lol. I was looking at it like "this is wrong" but couldn't figure it out .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
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    As long has his death is artistically done i could get behind this. Also can we please have Admiral Pellaeon show up and show Hux how a real commander does things?
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    I've only read three chapters and need to dig out my copy of Heir to the Empire (the Luke bits actually bored me), but Pellaeon and Thrawn made a much more interesting villain duo to me than Snoke/Kylo or Kylo/Hux.

    In his appearance Thrawn bleeds character that Smoke seems to lack, and is immediately established as a threat to the heroes via showing his tactical brilliance. He doesn't have to be big and imposing or shouty, he just has to be able to calmly reveal plans that feel like they could actually work, and rely on practical applications compared to super weapons. Thrawn would never have built Starkiller base because he knows that he'd probably get more use out of the equivalent hundred capital ships (because remember, SKB had to be both developed and built, both of which take a large number of resources).

    Pellaeon is then the perfect compliment to Thrawn in a way that is missing in the ST. Pellaeon is must as competent a commander as Thrawn, but is much less skilled as a strategist. But he learns, and even before that he proves his worth as a captain. But he's also relatable, a soldier who's truly devoted to the Empire, and never gives the impression that is not with the best of impressions. In some ways he's like Luke might be of he'd gone to the Imperial Academy instead of becoming a Jedi and hero of the rebellion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
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    I've only read three chapters and need to dig out my copy of Heir to the Empire (the Luke bits actually bored me), but Pellaeon and Thrawn made a much more interesting villain duo to me than Snoke/Kylo or Kylo/Hux.

    In his appearance Thrawn bleeds character that Smoke seems to lack, and is immediately established as a threat to the heroes via showing his tactical brilliance. He doesn't have to be big and imposing or shouty, he just has to be able to calmly reveal plans that feel like they could actually work, and rely on practical applications compared to super weapons. Thrawn would never have built Starkiller base because he knows that he'd probably get more use out of the equivalent hundred capital ships (because remember, SKB had to be both developed and built, both of which take a large number of resources).

    Pellaeon is then the perfect compliment to Thrawn in a way that is missing in the ST. Pellaeon is must as competent a commander as Thrawn, but is much less skilled as a strategist. But he learns, and even before that he proves his worth as a captain. But he's also relatable, a soldier who's truly devoted to the Empire, and never gives the impression that is not with the best of impressions. In some ways he's like Luke might be of he'd gone to the Imperial Academy instead of becoming a Jedi and hero of the rebellion.
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    The sad bit is, Snoke could have been good, but we get like 2 scenes with the guy and i dont really get a feel for him. Hux is just a screaming lunatic with no tactical sense (really, no picket ships? You know Star Destroyers have Trench Run Syndrome) and Kylo is just a sad angry kid with no actual motivations and barely any training.

    My god, Daala and Isard where leagues better villains than those three.
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    I wanted desperately for Kylo to show some... agency. Like when Snoke was dressing him down in the throne room the first time, I wanted Kylo to simply stand up and walk to the nearest guard and murder him. Fight the rest and kill them to a man, and tell Snoke not to speak to him that way in front of anyone. Just give me something to show that Kylo is more than a mewling adolescent trying to find his way, that he stands for something, even if it's just pride.

    But... nothing.

    I'm not sure what they can do in the next movie to make him menacing. He was at the beginning of TFA, for me at least, but that's it. Any suggestions? I feel like without the proper build-up, it will be like Anakin igniting his lightsaber against the younglings (though Kylo did kill Han Solo ((or Han ignited the lightsaber himself ))).
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
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    My god, Daala and Isard where leagues better villains than those three.
    I might need to turn the AC down, because that was cold.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I might need to turn the AC down, because that was cold.
    I mean you're not wrong, but neither is he.

    It always amazes me how bad the empire's is in not just tactics, but protocol. If you have six squadrons of fighters you should have at least a squadron's worth of fighters on standby to launch the moment you exit hyperspace as escort. The dreadnoughts are actually incredibly poorly defended by point defense guns even in the stats and fan groups were pointing that out from the word go.

    How it should go is that as soon as you drop into realspace, you get fighters in the air, even if they're just hovering around percieved weakpoints like your rear arc or underbelly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Sorry I may have misrepresented myself:

    I didn't mean that a X wing could take out a Star Dreadnaught, I meant that it means that extremly significantly smaller ships can do much more damage to extremly larger ships now with suicide runs.

    That scaling means that a Regular Imperial star destroyer can be taken out with a hyperspace jump from a ship 17 times smaller then itself. And if not taken out then significantly damaged.
    Oh! Okay, yeah, that makes perfect sense...and now that I think about it, it would make a lot more sense to just send the one suicide bomber, but maybe they do it the way they do because that one ship could be taken out by itself, and so they still might have to send more people? But wait, if you're travelling lightspeed, how could they shoot you down?

    ...I was a happier man when I didn't think this was a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
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    I wanted desperately for Kylo to show some... agency. Like when Snoke was dressing him down in the throne room the first time, I wanted Kylo to simply stand up and walk to the nearest guard and murder him. Fight the rest and kill them to a man, and tell Snoke not to speak to him that way in front of anyone. Just give me something to show that Kylo is more than a mewling adolescent trying to find his way, that he stands for something, even if it's just pride.

    But... nothing.

    I'm not sure what they can do in the next movie to make him menacing. He was at the beginning of TFA, for me at least, but that's it. Any suggestions? I feel like without the proper build-up, it will be like Anakin igniting his lightsaber against the younglings (though Kylo did kill Han Solo ((or Han ignited the lightsaber himself ))).
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    Kylo's adolescent temper is his defining character trait, though. I went to middle school with a kid who actually acted out with the same degree of frequency and lack of concern for others; his was a case of severe Asperger's coupled with a family who simultaneously gave him whatever stuff he wanted but little in the way of emotional support, and considering what's been said about Han and Leia's lives, maybe Kylo had a similar upbringing?

    Also, did him killing Snoke and half of his guards not feel like agency to you?
    Last edited by JBPuffin; 2017-12-18 at 10:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBPuffin View Post
    Oh! Okay, yeah, that makes perfect sense...and now that I think about it, it would make a lot more sense to just send the one suicide bomber, but maybe they do it the way they do because that one ship could be taken out by itself, and so they still might have to send more people? But wait, if you're travelling lightspeed, how could they shoot you down?

    ...I was a happier man when I didn't think this was a problem.
    For the sake of consideration that multiplier is about 94 meters long. An average rebel blockade runner is like 130 meters. The average Gozanti is about 65 or so if I remember right, with the Scum and Villainy variant crime lords like to use in the rebellion era being like 20 percent longer due to a refitted front end.

    So give or take all it takes is one civillian cargo freighter run by a couple of astromechs and you can bring down an imperial star destroyer. If you somehow need extra mass it has slots for cargo so just load it up with heavy metals. So with a full load one should be able to just punch through the whole thing.

    If you wanted to disable the destroyer, all you would need is a few Y wings with ion torpedoes. Their proton bombs would be capable of destroying any lighter craft escorting it and going ship to ship against fighter escorts with their pintle guns.
    Last edited by Jayngfet; 2017-12-18 at 11:02 PM.
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    Spoiler: Throne room guards
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    So, I only saw that fight once, but my impression is that no less than 4 of them went after Supreme Leader-killing Kylo Ren, and only 2 went after the prisoner Rey. If my memory is correct, then, Rey "saving" Kylo is just a matter of her finishing off her guards before he finishes off his.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBPuffin View Post
    Oh! Okay, yeah, that makes perfect sense...and now that I think about it, it would make a lot more sense to just send the one suicide bomber, but maybe they do it the way they do because that one ship could be taken out by itself, and so they still might have to send more people? But wait, if you're travelling lightspeed, how could they shoot you down?

    ...I was a happier man when I didn't think this was a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    For the sake of consideration that multiplier is about 94 meters long. An average rebel blockade runner is like 130 meters. The average Gozanti is about 65 or so if I remember right, with the Scum and Villainy variant crime lords like to use in the rebellion era being like 20 percent longer due to a refitted front end.

    So give or take all it takes is one civillian cargo freighter run by a couple of astromechs and you can bring down an imperial star destroyer. If you somehow need extra mass it has slots for cargo so just load it up with heavy metals. So with a full load one should be able to just punch through the whole thing.

    If you wanted to disable the destroyer, all you would need is a few Y wings with ion torpedoes. Their proton bombs would be capable of destroying any lighter craft escorting it and going ship to ship against fighter escorts with their pintle guns.
    Here's the problem with using the Supremacy's overall relative size to the Raddus for gauging the hyperspace ram tactic's effectiveness: the Raddus (3.4 km long) rams its opponent not along the 60 km major axis, but off-center along the 10 km-ish minor axis (maybe 8-9 km along the impact trajectory). That drops the penetration multiplier down all the way to around 3 or so (the Raddus did over-penetrate its target, but we don't know by how much) assuming similar densities between the two warships. Something that also completely obliterated a Dreadnought about the size of the Supremacy's wound? Proton bombs thrown at critical systems by a bomber only 30m long.

    I think the hyperspace ram is fine as it was presented in the film: suicidal tactic for a ship that's usually better off running away (and it usually can run away, since it still has its hyperdrive) and requires a distraction in order to work at all since otherwise the target might shoot out the engines before the hyperdrive finishes charging.
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Saw it. Loved it. Not much else to say other than that though. Interested in what's to come next.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JBPuffin View Post
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    Kylo's adolescent temper is his defining character trait, though. I went to middle school with a kid who actually acted out with the same degree of frequency and lack of concern for others; his was a case of severe Asperger's coupled with a family who simultaneously gave him whatever stuff he wanted but little in the way of emotional support, and considering what's been said about Han and Leia's lives, maybe Kylo had a similar upbringing?

    Also, did him killing Snoke and half of his guards not feel like agency to you?
    Spoiler: Kylo Thoughts, VERY spoiler
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    Here's what we know about Ben's upbringing.

    Raised by 2 heroes of the Republic. People always telling stories about what they did, how awesome they were. His grandfather's a legendary badass (horrible person, but strong, and people respected his power) who has similar larger than life stories everywhere.

    He's strong in the force. Really strong. Combined with the stories about his parents and grandfather many people likely expect him to do great things.

    He was sent to his Uncle Luke to be trained in the force. But particularly with Anakin's fall, Luke fears the influence of the Dark Side.

    So he's being told to turn away from the power he sense when he feels like people around him are expecting him to do great and strong things, like he needs to be STRONG, it's his birthright, he comes from a line of LEGENDS. And now he's being told to turn away, to hide his frustration.

    He's also being influenced by Snoke. My impression is that influence takes the form of stoking his frustrations at being "held back from the power that's his to claim."

    Then he wakes to Luke standing over him, lightsaber drawn. His parents shipped him off to his Uncle, his Uncle has turned on him, he's living in the shadow of his Grandfather's strength
    and fearful respect. He has nothing. He lashes out at Luke, and burns the place down.

    So now he goes off to Snoke, all good, right? Well, Snoke doesn't really go in for the comforting thing. Highlighting his mistakes, his wavering control. Even in this new life Kylo Ren doesn't have the respect he seeks. The First Order crew is laughing at him, Snoke's belittling him, he WILL be strong, he WILL be feared, he WILL prove his strength to the parents he feels abandoned him!

    When he once again meets his father, he expected to be angry. To show how strong he had become. But instead he sees his dad. He sees the family he thought had abandoned him,
    reaching out. and when the killing blow comes, it doesn't leave him with the feeling of victory he expected.

    Snoke, of course, belittles this "weakness." This display of emotion outside of being a cold killing machine. Riding on the coattails of his grandfather's reputation, trying to look cool in "that stupid mask." And Kylo lashes out in response, destroying the link he had made to his grandfather, the symbol of who he was "supposed" to be.

    Angry, lost, he's connected by the force to Rey. She has power. She's been abandoned. Her reaction when he shares the story of Luke shows that she understands the feeling of betrayal.And the Force has linked them, surely there's a reason.

    And then it turns out Snoke was using him, using his suppressed desire to belong, to draw Rey to him. Didn't even have the courtesy to fill Kylo in, just considered him a pawn to throw around. He turns the lightsaber to his true enemy.

    And then, after the battle, he tells Rey what he knows. She was abandoned by her parents like he felt abandoned by his. He still feels the shadow of his relatives, his past, the expectations and pressures he put on himself due to that. But he's done Rey a favor. She doesn't have that weight. She's strong on her own merits, not due to heritage or destiny. Both split from their family, they have each other. Together, they can rule the galaxy, she just needs to join him, and he'll finally have someone who respects him.

    And then she declines, and Kylo falls back into violent lashing out. Needs to just go in and wipe the Rebels out. The Falcon shows up, his FATHER's ship, and he has more attention put on shooting it down ("they really hate that ship"). Uncle Luke shows up, the man who BETRAYED him, who was supposed to PROTECT him, and the rage becomes blinding.

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    Saw it. Loved it. Felt the themes were extremely strong everywhere. The story was a big deconstruction of what didnt work with Star Wars; the hangups fanboys have over this verse.

    I will come back for future argumentation about this later when i.will have the time to write all down.

    Btw. Casino's plot was over so damn fast, i dont see whats the big hangup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    I think the hyperspace ram is fine as it was presented in the film: suicidal tactic for a ship that's usually better off running away (and it usually can run away, since it still has its hyperdrive) and requires a distraction in order to work at all since otherwise the target might shoot out the engines before the hyperdrive finishes charging.
    In WWII the Kamikaze fighters would suicide into aircraft carriers to take them out. Aircraft carriers remained useful despite this specific weakness and battle groups were formed around the idea of protecting the aircraft carriers. Star Destroyers are somewhat analogous to aircraft carriers as they are used to carry enormous numbers of TIE fighters.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Saw it. Loved it. Not much else to say other than that though. Interested in what's to come next.
    How come those who liked the movie do not have much to say in detail, while those who hated it can detail every twist and detail they hated.
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    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    What is the difference between a “fanboy hangup” and legitimate criticism of the movie I wonder. I wait with bated breath...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Star Destroyers are somewhat analogous to aircraft carriers as they are used to carry enormous numbers of TIE fighters.
    Star Destroyers are Aircraft Carriers, Battleships, troop transports, and Portable Missle Silos all in one. Star Destroyers where the Empires "Rocks fall and everybody dies" weapon.

    The idea was that their shields where so powerful that it just removed tons of ships from the equation period.
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    Well, This guy didn't like it

    Since it's a very spoilery review I'll try to snip out the critical bits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist Review
    “Star Wars: The Last Jedi” is a bad movie. It is not a bad Star Wars movie, but objectively speaking, as a film, it’s a bad movie. Not only that, it is an egregiously bad movie: Poorly written, badly directed, lazily acted, and bombastically grating in both sound and image. It is, put bluntly, the worst Star Wars film since George Lucas’ own unfortunate prequels ... “The Last Jedi” is not simply bad, it is incompetent on the most basic level.
    On a subplot:

    a dangerous and needlessly complicated mission that ultimately goes nowhere. All this culminates in a series of climactic confrontations, each one louder and more CGI-laden than the last.
    Rey + Luke:

    Meanwhile, the desperate Rey (played by Daisy Ridley in one of the few competent performances) attempts to persuade the self-exiled Luke Skywalker (Mark Hamill, in the other competent performance) to return to the fight.
    But enough with the story, let's talk execution!

    If You Thought the Story Was Bad, Check the Execution

    Even a cursory reading of the above reveals a plot so convoluted and bloated as to exhaust the potential viewer. (It is also the reason for the film’s impossibly inflated running time of an excruciating two and a half hours.) But the story is further laid low by the stunning incompetence of its execution.

    To name a few of its many flaws: The script is laden with clichéd dialogue that is, at times, simply excruciating. [subplot] and their entire quest ultimately leads nowhere, leaving the plot thread dangling before the perplexed viewer and wasting almost a half-hour of screen time.
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    Luke's angry alienation is reinforced at every point before he inexplicably has a change of heart and shows up to save the day.


    The entire story is based around a slow-speed pursuit between ships capable of light speed. All of this is semi-explained through remarkably long monologues that fail to move the story forward but continue ad nauseum.

    The plot is further degraded by its pointed failure to follow up on the various story points set up by its predecessor, the wonderful “Force Awakens.”

    Perhaps the most egregious misstep, however, is the film’s ridiculously campy humor, which debases and degrades the proceedings to a remarkable degree. The picture is filled with childish attempts at “Guardians of the Galaxy”-style jokes, like a bad prank phone call between Poe and a First Order ultra-fascist, Luke tossing a light saber indifferently over his shoulder, and an exposition-laden conversation with a tangential character that takes place, for some reason, in the midst of laser-gun duel.

    The Ewoks also appear in spirit in the form of the Porgs, a bizarre cross between owls and penguins whose only purpose is being cute and silly and selling merchandise. The problem with this is not merely that the jokes are bad (which they are) but that they make the entire film seem to be a self-referential spoof akin to “Spaceballs” (if less successfully humorous).

    The Star Wars films always had funny moments, but they rarely descended into outright camp. “The Last Jedi” seems to be enjoying undermining itself, as if telling the audience “Look at all this silly space opera, and look how silly you are for paying to watch it.” The result is an insult to the intelligence that would be more grating if the rest of the film were not equally so.
    ...

    That pretty much matches what I've seen in the fan review. Still, there are some here who like it, and good for you! I just ... think I'll give this one a miss.

    ETA: Russ Douhat has a more positive opinion. Essentially, as far as he's concerned, the triangle between Luke , Kylo, and Rey are some of the best human interaction story he's ever seen in a Star Wars movie. All three actors do a terrific job. The rest of the movie, however, can be safely ignored.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2017-12-19 at 09:08 AM.
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    What is the difference between a “fanboy hangup” and legitimate criticism of the movie I wonder. I wait with bated breath...
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    "Who are Rey's parents?! She has to be a Skywalker! Or a Solo! Or daughter of Kenobi! Or Anakin Reborn!"

    See, the hangups regarding the ingrained idea of Divine Rights, where what makes you special is the blood in your vein. Nobody can arise out of nowhere; its all about sons and daughters of Lords and Princesses.

    Rey is a nobody. Thats hard to accept to the audience, because we have been conditioned to accept that in Star wars, what makes you special is which bloodline you come from.

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    So where are the rest of the Knights of Ren? Also, why haven't they taken down the moron Kylo in sheer annoyance? Maybe they are off on their own campaigns and are smart enough to conduct them without Snoke constantly holding their hands and telling them what to do. "But Snoke, why are you always here watching me instead of the other Knights?" "Oh little Kylo, you are the "master"<cough cough> of the knights and I need to bask in your awesomeness and when I am with you I feel like we get more little things accomplished than your "lesser"<cough cough> knights" "Oh golly gee, Snoke, you really like me?" "Yes yes like are like a son to me that I should have drowned when he was a baby." "What was that?" "Oh nothing, you have bread crumbs on your face."

    The Imperial guard battle was actually pretty good, I rate it up there with Darth vs Lukes throne room battle and the fight vs Maul. I still think their helms look pretty silly but the rest was pretty cool. I like how it at least deflects indirect lightsaber blades even if it doesn't stop direct hits. Yes armor actually does something in the Star Wars universe.

    I loved the Snoke/ Kylo interaction in the early movie, "take that ridiculous thing off." At least someone said it. I really didn't like Kylo's helm. It wasn't near as cool or foreboding as other sith lords from the past plus it really did sound like he was talking with marbles in his mouth.

  22. - Top - End - #232
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    This was a terrible film and an even worse component of a trilogy.

    TLJ took pretty much every one of TFA's major problems and either completely failed to address them or compounded them massively. The origins of Snoke and the First Order and why any of this is happening and how we got from the end of ROTJ to this point that were so utterly absent from TFA - still absent, only now there are additional plot developments that make them much more important and they are still completely ignored.

    Spoiler
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    Whether or not one think's Snoke's backstory is important his relationship ship with Kylo Ren prior to TFA absolutely is, since Snoke seducing Ben Solo to the dark side is the trigger for all of this. Yet there is nothing presented on this at all. Nothing. Even though they had the perfect opportunity to show so of it simply by having a scene where Rey looks into Kylo's head.


    The movie continually buries characters under the weight of a ten thousand ton idiot ball and unfolds events that make absolutely no sense as a result.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Why in space does the Vice Admiral not explain her plan to the troops? She could have done this at any time. 'We're going to flee in realspace to reach this hidden base and then we'll sacrifce the cruise to pretend we all died. That's the plan. Any commander worth anything would have understood that restoring morale was important at that point and there was no information security issue that would lead you to not tell them.

    The various First Order commanders make one horrible tactical choice after another. Honestly - whether or not it's a good idea for the universe to allow cruisers to use jumping to lightspeed as a suicide attack method if that sort of attack is possible it's not new and you should have plans for it. Especially given that a suicide attack was the most likely move for the resistance to make when their fuel runs out. Also- the other two rebel frigates/cruisers absolutely should have made suicide attacks of their own. Why didn't they?


    A huge portion of the run time is taken up by a plotline that accomplishes absolutely nothing.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Look, I actually like Finn. John Boyega seems talented and committed, can't wait to see the new Pacific Rim with him in it, and Rose is fine and its nice to see an Asian character in Star Wars (she is the most substantial Asian character in the entire franchise to date which is kind of amazing to think about). However, absolutely nothing they do between leaving the ship and landing on the salt planet amounts to anything at all (heck, it's not even clear that Phasma dies as irrelevant as she is). Nothing. You could cut that whole plot out and it wouldn't matter in the slightest. That's a huge chunk of movie that isn't necessary and also serves to undercut Poe's character for now good reason. Considering that the movie is too long in general it's just embarrassing.


    The movie doesn't portray Star Wars combat believably.

    Spoiler
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    - The opening battle sequence involves dropping un-powered bombs in space. We have objects falling downward in an explicitly zero-g environment. This is quite possibly the most blatant disregard for the laws of physics in space fantasy or science fiction that I have ever witnessed. Ever. I wanted to throw things at the screen. It was positively embarrassing and whoever approved that shot should never be allowed to work in those genres ever again.

    - Suicide attack via hyperspace jump is, like the jumping in beneath the shields move in TFA, a very bad choice. Yes it is possible to rationalize ways around it. People up-thread are arguing about it. But this is an established franchise with forty years of history. They would have known going in that this would be massively controversial and would anger passionate fans. And it was totally unnecessary. They could have just have the Raddus execute a ramming attack in realspace to cover the transports to much the same effect. It's a moment that gut punches that fans for no reason.
    - Rey getting taken on board un-scrutinized in a pod that could have been a bomb was just ridiculous. I can't even.


    The ending leaves us with nowhere to go for the next film.

    Spoiler
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    - The resistance has been reduced to between 10-20 people on the Falcon after the rest of the galaxy specifically failed to rally to try and save them. How to you start from here. At the end of ESB there was still a Rebel fleet - because the evacuation of Hoth succeeded where as the evacuation in this movie was a failure, sorry but 99% asset loss is a military obliteration people - and there was a clear goal in going to save Han. This movie leaves the heroes in total limbo having to rebuild from the ground up against a largely undamaged enemy.

    - Since we switched villains from Snoke to Kylo mid-stream we have no idea what the goals of the antagonists are either. Snoke has no backstory at all (a major problem in its own right) but Kylo at least implies he's a Sith somehow. So he wanted to conquer the galaxy because that's what Sith do. Weak, but buyable. But Kylo's in charge now and what does he want? He wanted to kill Luke, but he got that even though he doesn't know it yet. There's absolutely nothing to go on here. We don't even know the motive of the First Order as a whole or what their role in the galaxy even is. That's a holdover problem from TFA that needed to be solved but this movie just made it worse. The casino sequence has no First Order presence, nothing to indicate the state of the galaxy at all. What are the stakes here?

    - They killed Luke but left Leia alive. Let's get brutally real for a second. Carrie Fisher's dead. Mark Hamill is very much alive. Leia cannot play a significant role in Episode IX, period. Luke Skywalker could have. Additionally, they should have re-shot the cruiser sacrifice sequence to have Leia make the suicide attack in order to have Laura Dern's Vice Admiral Holdo fill the role of Rebel commander in the next movie. The Vice Admiral was a lousy character, but any character with a living actress is preferable to one without.


    Overall The Last Jedi is a movie that makes a ton of preventable mistakes for no good reason that buries some good moments it does have under a pile of mess.
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I mean you're not wrong, but neither is he.
    Oh, I was agreeing completely. Maybe I should have posted the Friday "damn" gif instead?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Spoiler
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    "Who are Rey's parents?! She has to be a Skywalker! Or a Solo! Or daughter of Kenobi! Or Anakin Reborn!"

    See, the hangups regarding the ingrained idea of Divine Rights, where what makes you special is the blood in your vein. Nobody can arise out of nowhere; its all about sons and daughters of Lords and Princesses.

    Rey is a nobody. Thats hard to accept to the audience, because we have been conditioned to accept that in Star wars, what makes you special is which bloodline you come from.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Except Obi Wan. And Yoda. And Han. And Poe (the Mary Sue-est of all the Star Wars. I really, really hate Poe). And the Emperor. And Amidala. And... Well, I guess everyone who matters and isn't a Skywalker.

    Anyway, I'm still ecstatic they did that.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Oh, I was agreeing completely. Maybe I should have posted the Friday "damn" gif instead?

    Spoiler
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    Except Obi Wan. And Yoda. And Han. And Poe (the Mary Sue-est of all the Star Wars. I really, really hate Poe). And the Emperor. And Amidala. And... Well, I guess everyone who matters and isn't a Skywalker.

    Anyway, I'm still ecstatic they did that.
    Obiwan, Yoda are already Lords/Knights of the Space Aristocracy. The Emperor is.. the Emperor. Amidala is Queen.

    Han Solo is the glorious exception. Poe is already a Space Hero when the movie starts.

    You dont get my point, methink.

  25. - Top - End - #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Spoiler
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    "Who are Rey's parents?! She has to be a Skywalker! Or a Solo! Or daughter of Kenobi! Or Anakin Reborn!"
    No not at all.

    Actually this part is more of a literary con job than "Fan Hangups":

    Spoiler: On Why Rays Parents Mattered
    Show

    I personally never liked the whole "Bloodline Carries the Force" thing. I wished anybody could be a force user, and just like a martial art some people just had the knack for it more then others.

    However Rays Parents where completly important for another reason:

    It was a promise as to why she is so massively powerful. TFA promised an explanation for why she was so powerful.
    I assumed maybe she had repressed memories and that she was super duper trained beforehand or something, or somekind of experiement.
    Others assumed "Well maybe shes so powerful because Anakin?"

    And one would think in theory that making the bloodlines thing unimportant would be a good thing: Well sorta.

    Like a Senetor Payrise mixed in with a bill to raise park funding, this movie cheats by equating one terrible thing with another:

    Rey hasn't become any better then the Anakin Bloodline because she is JUST another Anakin. A spontaneous fart of the force, better then everybody else who came before her with no merit or hard work on her end. But Anakin was at least a subversive character.

    This doesn't serve to make Bloodlines less Important, it just stresses that the force at random can make a super duper overpowered person on a whim.
    In fact its worse then bloodlines, It just means how powerful you become is based on the roll of a die.

    And even if we take at face value the movies explanation (I expect retcons): That she was born out of a balance.

    Well then shes STILL JUST A REACTION TO THE SKYWALKER BLOODLINE.



    In simple point, the movie bamboozles you with one theoretical thing, whilst doing it in a way that denies you its promise ie:

    "Hey you promised me Icream, I paid for it!"
    "You don't need any icecream, its unhealthy and you and you could do some excercise instead!"

    Well OK, good for the attentiveness but I still paid money for it. Its not Mr Miagis life lessons if he first takes the pay. It just makes him a jerk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    That pretty much matches what I've seen in the fan review. Still, there are some here who like it, and good for you! I just ... think I'll give this one a miss.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    The National Review also gave this one a similarly bad review, including claiming it “insults are intelligence.” I wonder if there is a reason why political conservatives in particular hate it.

    These reviews are not saying that the movie is just a miss and a mess, but that they actively undermine the very things that make a Star Wars movie great. Other reviews refer to the themes TLJ discards as “idols” and TFA leftovers, these reviews find great import in what is being discarded.

    Finally, that accusation is an insult to our intelligence is probably the most biting. The Federalist details it as saying the movie enjoys undermining itself as if its telling us how silly this space opera is (and how silly you are to watch it).

    TLJ is clearly disrupting core themes, but there is something to be said about just how profane it becomes[SPOILER=Jedi and other idols]Luke is explicitly saying its time for the Jedi religion to die, then Luke intends to literally burn the equivalent of the original bible, only to have Yoda do it for him.

    The Jedi religion is a fantasy, but I cannot help but to think the notion is meant to have some import about real life themes of historical and religious import.

    The dialectic doesn’t even have a point of view that respects the substance of what is being destroyed. Luke’s mistake isn’t so much his desire to get past these things, but in how seriously he goes about destroying and demeaning them. Yoda comes along to essentially say that its all alright, none of it really matters. Yoda, the voice of wisdom, encapsulates the casual way the movie speaks about not just the Jedi religion, but all its core themes, often just before it either figuratively or literally burns them down.

    What I am speaking of is not just one scene or even Luke’s character, the entire film just goes from one built-up assumption to the next, from Snoke being a big deal and powerhouse, to Rey having some sort of familiar connection, just to tear those things down one after the next. Even the new plot is fundamentally an exercise in undermining traditional narrative. Poe and Finn’s mission basically just gets a lot more people killed in the end. Rey’s mission just allows Kylo Ren to take over the First Order.

    In the end, despite the blundering of the heroes (and the villains) it really doesn’t matter. The new rebellion will live on, a new Jedi order will rise, and the villains will just continue to do their thing.

    The kids in the end basically seem to suggest the level of sentiment the movie has for the franchise, Star Wars will continue to be a fantasy for children across the galaxy Earth to play with, but any desire to look for meaning in its themes beyond it being just another fantasy about good fighting and triumphing over evil is an exercise in folly./SPOILER]
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I might need to turn the AC down, because that was cold.
    Yes, I have an Iceheart. But seriously, both of them where better villains than what we have, they both have backstories, clear goals, and they are at least some level of competent at their jobs
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    Spoiler: Rey's parentage
    Show

    The problem with Rey's parents being nobodies is that her potential parentage was the only available hook left to tie her into the story. By confirming that her parents were of no importance and had no significant impact on her character Rey is left as a bizarre blank slate protagonist who the Sequel Trilogy is happening to, rather centered upon. TFA had already closed out all other avenues.

    - Rey comes from nowhere - Jakku is an unimportant planet doing nothing.

    - Rey comes from nothing - she's a junk scrounger.

    - Rey has no major ideological ties - whether the First Order or the Republic or the Hutts or anyone else controls the galaxy doesn't mean squat to a junk scrounger on Jakku. Life will go on. She has no personal commitment to or even opinions on how the galaxy should be governed (contrast this with both Finn and Poe who very much do have such connections and opinions).

    - Rey has no ties to the Jedi Order. TLJ has her deeply committed to fighting for something that she knows only as a fairy tale.

    - Rey's moral foundation is a blank. This is a major problem. Rey is portrayed in both TFA and TLJ as an extremely ethical person. She is kind, generous, and selfless. This is pretty much the exact opposite of what her background as a cutthroat junk scrounger would lead us to expect (we would expect someone with her background to resemble the codebreaker).

    - Rey is a clone of Luke is pretty much every way except the disposition of her parents. Young idealist from a dead-end desert planet with a background in a lousy career that nonetheless provides her with a foundation of deeply practical skills. Only Luke was guided by the good old-fashioned American farm values instilled in him by Owen and Beru Lars (Luke's ideological foundation fundamentally the same as Superman's and prior to TLJ so were his ethics). Luke was pulled into the galactic conflict because of who his father was - that's the reason R2 and 3PO were sent to Tatooine in the first place, because Obi-Wan was watching him, and that's the reason he became more than a moderately important Rebel officer.

    Rey, by contrast, enters the story because she finds BB-8 effectively at random. Snoke says the Force chose her, but why did it choose her and no someone else? Why didn't it choose Finn? Or Poe? They're both far more invested candidates. Had Rey been given important parents/grandparents that would have provided justification for why, out of all the quadrillions of people in the galaxy, the Force chose her. Heck, she could have been given unimportant but morally upright parents who instilled her with a grand sense of ethics (like they could have been random Alderaanian charity workers or something) and that would have at least provided some justification for her as the 'righteous woman' champion of the light. Instead, we're left with 'random' and while random may be realistic, random does not make for compelling storytelling.

    Again, imagine if TFA - which teased this - had made Finn the chosen champion of the light and not Rey. The former child soldier turning against his masters to bring justice to the galaxy - that's at least poetic and certainly superior to what we have.
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    Also I the amount of having cake and also eating it in this movie is simply immense:

    The time to start a New Trilogy with new values would have been at the Force Awakens.
    I BEGGED for that sort of thing and was sorely disappointed when it was a rehash.

    To say "We so clever because we start anew", is insulting because you have spent 3 movies wallowing in the past and in nostalgia value.
    They made the whole universe make less sense, burn down every piece of logic or development in order to do a soft reboot, and NOW you want applause for doing something "new" (In the most lazy way of new)?

    Heck in 6 months you want me to clap for the guy who ultimately accomplishes nothing and is such a terrible parent his own son kills him.

    People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones Disney.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    No not at all.

    Actually this part is more of a literary con job than "Fan Hangups":

    Spoiler: On Why Rays Parents Mattered
    Show

    I personally never liked the whole "Bloodline Carries the Force" thing. I wished anybody could be a force user, and just like a martial art some people just had the knack for it more then others.

    However Rays Parents where completly important for another reason:

    It was a promise as to why she is so massively powerful. TFA promised an explanation for why she was so powerful.
    I assumed maybe she had repressed memories and that she was super duper trained beforehand or something, or somekind of experiement.
    Others assumed "Well maybe shes so powerful because Anakin?"

    And one would think in theory that making the bloodlines thing unimportant would be a good thing: Well sorta.

    Like a Senetor Payrise mixed in with a bill to raise park funding, this movie cheats by equating one terrible thing with another:

    Rey hasn't become any better then the Anakin Bloodline because she is JUST another Anakin. A spontaneous fart of the force, better then everybody else who came before her with no merit or hard work on her end. But Anakin was at least a subversive character.

    This doesn't serve to make Bloodlines less Important, it just stresses that the force at random can make a super duper overpowered person on a whim.
    In fact its worse then bloodlines, It just means how powerful you become is based on the roll of a die.

    And even if we take at face value the movies explanation (I expect retcons): That she was born out of a balance.

    Well then shes STILL JUST A REACTION TO THE SKYWALKER BLOODLINE.



    In simple point, the movie bamboozles you with one theoretical thing, whilst doing it in a way that denies you its promise ie:

    "Hey you promised me Icream, I paid for it!"
    "You don't need any icecream, its unhealthy and you and you could do some excercise instead!"

    Well OK, good for the attentiveness but I still paid money for it. Its not Mr Miagis life lessons if he first takes the pay. It just makes him a jerk.
    Or, ya know, really big fan hangups.

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