Saving Throw: Reflex evades (Web, Solid Fog, and company)

[BassoonHero]

As part of the continuing collaborative discussion we've been having on giving better tools to nonspellcasters, I've been thinking about ways to lessen the impact of "auto-win" area-effect immobilizing spells. Seeing this thread about nerfing Evard's Black Tentacles, I thought that I might share an idea I've had for a new way to resist spells via reflex save. This new save type would be appropriate for spells that have an Effect covering an area and a Duration other than Instantaneous, such as Web and Solid Fog:

On a successful save versus a spell with "Saving Throw: Reflex evades", the target is not immediately affected by the spell, but instead has a brief "grace period" during which they can move and act as though the spell had no effect. This grace period ends at the end of the target's next turn or if the target takes any action other than movement. When the grace period ends, if the target is within the spell's area of effect, they are affected by the spell as normal.

The idea is that a character with good reflexes can move out of the way before such a spell takes effect. In order to make that happen in a turn-based system, we need to bend time a little. I thought that this was a simpler and less disruptive approach than letting the target move out of turn. It's still more complicated than a save for no effect or for half damage, and this is a clear downside to the approach. I'm sure that similar ideas have been suggested before; I'd appreciate links or references.

Thoughts, objections, alternatives?

[Venger]

As part of the continuing collaborative discussion we've been having on giving better tools to nonspellcasters, I've been thinking about ways to lessen the impact of "auto-win" area-effect immobilizing spells. Seeing this thread about nerfing Evard's Black Tentacles, I thought that I might share an idea I've had for a new way to resist spells via reflex save. This new save type would be appropriate for spells that have an Effect covering an area and a Duration other than Instantaneous, such as Web and Solid Fog:



The idea is that a character with good reflexes can move out of the way before such a spell takes effect. In order to make that happen in a turn-based system, we need to bend time a little. I thought that this was a simpler and less disruptive approach than letting the target move out of turn. It's still more complicated than a save for no effect or for half damage, and this is a clear downside to the approach. I'm sure that similar ideas have been suggested before; I'd appreciate links or references.

Thoughts, objections, alternatives?

Refneg are already the weakest spells in the game. If you nerf them even more, why exactly would people use them at all?

[heavyfuel]

Refneg are already the weakest spells in the game. If you nerf them even more, why exactly would people use them at all?

He's not nerfing Refx negate spells, but adding a Refx save to spells that previously had none.

[Venger]

He's not nerfing Refx negate spells, but adding a Refx save to spells that previously had none.

Right. This new kind of spell has all the drawbacks of refneg with more on top of it. If enemies can just kind of waddle out of murderous mist or dolorous motes, why would people use the spells?

[heavyfuel]

Right. This new kind of spell has all the drawbacks of refneg with more on top of it. If enemies can just kind of waddle out of murderous mist or dolorous motes, why would people use the spells?

For the same reasons a bunch of spellcasters still prepare Fireball

It's situationally good

The three spells mentioned are all considered very powerful BfC spells and are top picks for their levels. "Reflex evades" makes it so these spells aren't obvious choices now compared to other spells from their level

[Lapak]

I was actually tossing the idea around in my head last week of a similar-yet-very-different direction, actually, with all Reflex-based saves. Right now Reflex-negates and Reflex-half spells tend towards the weaker end of the spectrum, so I was considering making them partial crowd-control by doing something along the lines of:

When making a successful Reflex save, the benefit (negation or half damage) only applies if the target moves out of the spell's area of effect using the most direct path away from the spell's point of origin. They may use up to their movement to accomplish this, but that move is counted against their next turn's movement (e.g. if a rogue with 30' movement chooses to move 15' to evade a spell's area, he will only have 15' remaining on his next turn.)

If the target of a spell is unable to escape the area of effect, either because the area of effect is too large or they have already used up next turn's movement getting clear of an earlier spell's area, they suffer the spell's full effects regardless of the saving throw result.

The theory being that you can potentially keep enemies at bay by dropping spells between you and them (or at least make them take the hit) and/or pin down a particularly slippery opponent by hitting them with multiple spells in a single round, and/or hit your enemies with a no-win situation by dropping the point of origin such that evading the spell would, say, force them to jump off a cliff. I suppose if you have particularly action-movie players, they might end up finding ways to game this ('the fighter doesn't have enough movement this turn to get within AOO range of the enemy spellcaster, but I can drop a Fireball behind him and blast him into reach!' kind of deal.)

[Venger]

For the same reasons a bunch of spellcasters still prepare Fireball

It's situationally good

The three spells mentioned are all considered very powerful BfC spells and are top picks for their levels. "Reflex evades" makes it so these spells aren't obvious choices now compared to other spells from their level

No one actually uses fireball though: just hp damage, worst type, no rider, ref, and sr. there are much better options.

if you make those bfc spells useless, then people will not cast them. if you want people to cast them, you should scale it back. if you just want to ban bfc, then do that. this is just adding extra steps

[heavyfuel]

No one actually uses fireball though: just hp damage, worst type, no rider, ref, and sr. there are much better options.

if you make those bfc spells useless, then people will not cast them. if you want people to cast them, you should scale it back. if you just want to ban bfc, then do that. this is just adding extra steps

Not everyone plays control Wizards. Not everyone only chooses the absolute best option (in fact, some people even choose classes that aren't Tier 1 casters, if you would believe that). And even then, if you need to deal with many weaker opponents quickly, Fireball is a good option

And they won't be useless. Its like saying that any spell with a save but hat isnt a SoD is useless. They'll be nerfed, sure. That's the entire point. People will still fail their Refx save, but these spells just won't be as amazingly powerful as before.

[Crake]

No one actually uses fireball though: just hp damage, worst type, no rider, ref, and sr. there are much better options.

if you make those bfc spells useless, then people will not cast them. if you want people to cast them, you should scale it back. if you just want to ban bfc, then do that. this is just adding extra steps

This quote shows someone who's lived in the giantitp echo chamber for too long. Plenty of people use fireball. Because it's a ball of fire which is awesome.

[BassoonHero]

Refneg are already the weakest spells in the game. If you nerf them even more, why exactly would people use them at all?

The spells I'm talking about here are among the strongest in the game -- they offer no save at all and impede movement to the point of taking many opponents out of the fight entirely. In many cases, they are effectively area-effect save-or-lose spells without the save.

The spells you're talking about are direct-damage spells that already offer a reflex save for half damage. The reason that these spells are considered weak is that a) they merely damage an opponent, b) energy damage is easily resisted, c) evasion can negate the damage entirely, and d) there are better direct-damage spells that don't offer a save. None of these drawbacks applies to spells like Solid Fog.

Would this change make spells like Solid Fog weaker? Absolutely; that's the intent. Would it make them useless? I don't think that it would.

@Lapak: Your thoughts parallel my own. I've seen plenty of discussion on the logic of dodging a fireball, and letting characters who made their save immediately move out of range makes sense, but I'm concerned about the added complexity of out-of-turn movement and about the possibility of abuse. Delaying the evasive movement until the player's next turn avoids these issues, though it admittedly bends simultaneity.

[Venger]

Not everyone plays control Wizards. Not everyone only chooses the absolute best option (in fact, some people even choose classes that aren't Tier 1 casters, if you would believe that). And even then, if you need to deal with many weaker opponents quickly, Fireball is a good option

And they won't be useless. Its like saying that any spell with a save but hat isnt a SoD is useless. They'll be nerfed, sure. That's the entire point. People will still fail their Refx save, but these spells just won't be as amazingly powerful as before.

sweet strawman. I never said anything about only playing t1 casters.

the reason it's a bad decision to use crappy spells like fireball isn't just that they're not good, it's that they only deal hp damage, which (depending on your party composition) may be the only thing a character like a fighter has to contribute to the party, so it's rude to step on his toes, and he is probably able to dish out more than 3.5dmg/lvl without expending finite resources, so it's more polite and more effective for you to do stuff he can't, like buffing him to make him stronger, debuffing enemies, doing bfc (well, not under this houserule) etc. it's basic opportunity cost/diversification of assets

This quote shows someone who's lived in the giantitp echo chamber for too long. Plenty of people use fireball. Because it's a ball of fire which is awesome.

again, the reason not to use stuff like fireball is largely one of etiquette and efficiency, not some kind of elitist thought.

The spells I'm talking about here are among the strongest in the game -- they offer no save at all and impede movement to the point of taking many opponents out of the fight entirely. In many cases, they are effectively area-effect save-or-lose spells without the save.

The spells you're talking about are direct-damage spells that already offer a reflex save for half damage. The reason that these spells are considered weak is that a) they merely damage an opponent, b) energy damage is easily resisted, c) evasion can negate the damage entirely, and d) there are better direct-damage spells that don't offer a save. None of these drawbacks applies to spells like Solid Fog.

Would this change make spells like Solid Fog weaker? Absolutely; that's the intent. Would it make them useless? I don't think that it would.

@Lapak: Your thoughts parallel my own. I've seen plenty of discussion on the logic of dodging a fireball, and letting characters who made their save immediately move out of range makes sense, but I'm concerned about the added complexity of out-of-turn movement and about the possibility of abuse. Delaying the evasive movement until the player's next turn avoids these issues, though it admittedly bends simultaneity.

I know how the spells work.

What I'm asking you is, under your proposed change, when people can just waddle out of the area of effect after I waste a slot on acid fog or whatever, what is a scenario where I can cast such spells and that's a smart decision that actually has some deleterious effect on my enemies?

[BassoonHero]

What I'm asking you is, under your proposed change, when people can just waddle out of the area of effect after I waste a slot on acid fog or whatever, what is a scenario where I can cast such spells and that's a smart decision that actually has some deleterious effect on my enemies?

I think you may have misunderstood the proposal. In order to leave the area without suffering the spell's effects, an opponent would need to make a successful Reflex save against the spell's DC. Opponents that failed their save would be affected immediately, as normal for the spell.

[Nifft]

This quote shows someone who's lived in the giantitp echo chamber for too long. Plenty of people use fireball. Because it's a ball of fire which is awesome.

Hell to the yes.

It's even useful to cast fireball if you're a mid-op control Wizard.

Once the enemy units are stuck in your party's round one entangle / solid fog / entangling exhalation / etc., the next thing you want to do is remove their HP.

Fire is a common resistance, but it's also a common vulnerability. You should never restrict yourself to only using fire damage, but you should also never deny yourself access to fire damage -- fire is great, it burns evil trees and zombies and frost giants and thatched roof cottages from artillery distance.

[rel]

Under the proposed rules, what happens if a creature enters an already cast web or solid fog?

[lord_khaine]

Hell to the yes.

It's even useful to cast fireball if you're a mid-op control Wizard.

Once the enemy units are stuck in your party's round one entangle / solid fog / entangling exhalation / etc., the next thing you want to do is remove their HP.

Fire is a common resistance, but it's also a common vulnerability. You should never restrict yourself to only using fire damage, but you should also never deny yourself access to fire damage -- fire is great, it burns evil trees and zombies and frost giants and thatched roof cottages from artillery distance.

Yeah, its actually so great at taking out larger hordes of lesser opponents that they dont get used as much

And furthermore, it actually synergise with what the rest of the party does. If all the zombies are suddenly down to ½ hp, then its going to be a lot easier for the fight/paladin/barbarian (awful class combo), to cleave though them.

[BassoonHero]

Under the proposed rules, what happens if a creature enters an already cast web or solid fog?

When the spell is cast, creatures within the area of effect would get a save to evade. Creatures outside the area of effect would not, nor would creatures entering the area of effect after the spell is cast. Those creatures would be affected normally by the spell.

The intended interpretation is that when the spell is case, a creature in the affected area who makes their save can dive out of the way before the spell takes effect. A creature who enters the affected area must contend with that effect.

You could come up with some corner cases here. For instance, suppose that you use metamagic or other abilities to cast a Solid Fog that completely surrounded an opponent but left a hole for them in the middle. Under this proposal as written, the unfortunate opponent would not get a save to evade the effect. In such a case, it might be reasonable to grant them a save anyway, allowing them to evade on a success.

[Eurus]

I really like this idea. I might be a little more selective in exactly what spells I apply it to, or exactly what part of their effect you get to ignore (maybe acid fog still deals damage even if you save), but giving people a chance to escape a web or solid fog is a good thing, I think.

And it definitely won't make them useless, since they still create a large obstacle to movement and vision for the rest of the encounter as well as probably being a save-or-lose.