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Thread: Why healing is conjuration?
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2017-12-14, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
Yeah the (Creation) sub-school should be a descriptor instead -- i.e. [Creation] -- and should appear on some Conjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation spells.
What I'd do about the Orb spells:
- (Lesser) Acid Orb can stay Conjuration. Call it Melf's (Lesser) Acid Orb, perhaps, as justification.
- (Lesser) Fire/Cold/Lightning Orb move to Evocation.
- Remove the (Lesser) Sonic / Force Orb spells entirely.
None of the Orb spells allow SR; all of them function the same. It's just that if you ban Evocation you only get Acid, which is still pretty good but way more situational than having all the Orbs.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-12-14, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
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2017-12-14, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
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2017-12-14, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
Well, they already have one mechanic for 'you heal a set amount every round', so why not re-use it? 'You gain Fast Haeling 5' and 'you regain 5 hit points every round, barring HP lost from some things' are the same, while the former takes up fewer words and doesn't require being as thorough, because the words and thoroughness have already been used on Fast healing's description.
Avatar by TinyMushroom.
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2017-12-14, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
So do we put the straight up Cure spells in Green or White then? I mean, there are solid arguments for either one, but at the end of the day one gets claim on "Cure Light Wounds" and the other doesn't.
Of course, Black would get all the "damage enemy>heal yourself" life drain stuff.
Blue can have limited amounts, but only as part of Polymorph type effects, which would likely be Fast Healing related.
Red is right out.
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2017-12-15, 12:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
Have you noticed how many conjuration (healing) spells there are? Especially on the cleric list. It's quite a big subschool. It should just be its own school, a sort of opposite of necromancy. Just call it healing.
Necromancy could just as easily be evocation or transmutation.
Really they didn't see it as quite big enough to make another school, especially a school that wizards don't really get many spells for if any. So they needed to force fit it into somewhere where it wouldn't get much notice.
Having healing necromancers is also a bit of a bother. If anything healing is supposed to be anti-undead and anti-necromancy. It kinda works just because arcane necromancers don't get the spells. And because clerics can mostly do both.
Because now they need explain why not undead. And need explain mean less word dumb not smart.Last edited by ericgrau; 2017-12-15 at 12:59 AM.
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2017-12-15, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
This is free and legal. The full list can be found in either the Tome Of Magic tab (which shows Elemental Sphere spells both together and separate) or the Player's Option: Spells & Magic tab (where they're only separate).
Spoiler: Derp, or I could just write the list outAll
Animal
Astral
Chaos
Charm
Combat
Creation
Divination
Elemental, Air
Elemental, Earth
Elemental, Fire
Elemental, Water
Guardian
Healing
Law
Necromantic
Numbers
Plant
Protection
Summoning
Sun
Thought
Time
Travelers
War
Wards
WeatherLast edited by Dimers; 2017-12-15 at 02:50 AM.
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2017-12-15, 03:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
1. Er, can you explain what you mean by the second sentence? That reads like a word salad, and I can't understand what you're trying to say.
2. They have that problem either way. Healing isn't intrinsically damaging to undead. That's a special exception that the Cure X Wounds spells specifically make, not any kind of general rule.Avatar by TinyMushroom.
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2017-12-15, 05:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
So creatures with fast healing are inherently positive energy loaded? In my veiw there has to be consistency. Either positive energy heals, or give fast healing. If it gives fast healing then all creatures with fast healing should be either from the Positive Energy Plane...
From a quick google search, the following creatures have fast healing:
Spoiler: Fast healing creatures
Ethereal Doppelganger (MM2) - FH8
Firbolg (MM2) - FH3
Fomorian (MM2) - FH5
Vampiric Ixitxachitl (MM2) - FH5
*Spirit of the Land (MM2) - FH10
Windghost (MM2) - FH3
Harssaf (MM3) - FH3
Odopi (MM3) - FH7 (or elder FH9)
Lifeleech Otyugh (MM3) - FH5
*Ragewalker (MM3) - FH5
Runehound (MM3) - FH3
Shrieking Terror (MM3) - FH5 (five-headed) or FH10 (ten-headed)
Summoning Ooze (MM3) - FH5
Trolls (MM3) - FH8 (cave troll), FH5 (forest), FH9 (mountain)
*Avatars of Elemental Evil (MM4) - FH5
*Bloodfire Ooze (MM4) - FH5
Ogre Guard Thrall (MM4) - FH5
Zern (MM4) - FH5
Zern Blade Thrall (MM4) - FH2
Elemental Mage (MM5) - FH5 (Ken-kuni), FH10 (Ken-li or Ken-Sun)
Thoon Infiltrator (MM5) - FH5
Madcrafter of Thoon (MM5)- FH5
Thoon Elder Brain (MM5) - FH10
*Zeitgeist (CityScape) - FH10
*Fang Dragon, Ancient or older (Draconomicon) - FH2
Battle Dragon, Old or older (Draconomicon) - FH2
Chaoswyrd (Dragon Compendium) - FH10
Venom Ooze (Drow of the Underdark) - FH3
*Genius Loci (Epic Level Handbook) - FH50
*LeShay (Epic Level Handbook) - FH10
Mu Spore (Epic Level Handbook) - FH10
*Ruin Swarm (Epic Level Handbook) - FH15
Vermiurge (Epic Level Handbook) - FH10
Bonespear (Fiend Folio) - FH5
Darkweaver (Fiend Folio) - FH3
Fossergrim (Fiend Folio) - FH5
*Rukanyr (Fiend Folio) - FH5
Chilblain (Frostburn) - FH10
Ectoplasmic Vermin (Ghostwalk) - FH1 (any size)
Chulcrix (Price of Courage\Dragonlance) - FH5
Dolghast (Magic of Eberron\Eberron) - FH5
Dekanter Goblin (Monsters of Faerun\Forgotten Realms) - FH3
*Rock Wyrm (Silver Marches\Forgotten Realms) - FH1
*Banelar Naga (Serpent Kingdoms\Forgotten Realms) - FH2
Nagahydra (Serpent Kingdoms\Forgotten Realms) - FH15
Dung Snake (Serpent Kingdoms\Forgotten Realms) - FH1
Glacier Snake (Serpent Kingdoms\Forgotten Realms) - FH1
Impervigen (Dangerous Denizens\Kingdoms of Kalamar) - FH2
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2017-12-15, 05:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
No, and I'm not sure how you'd extrapolate that from my argument.
There is consistency. 'You heal for X HP every round' is consistently Fast Healing.
That's a bit like saying 'either negative energy inflicts negative levels, or it animates undead'. There's no reason a whole energy should only be able to do only one thing, and it's perfectly reasonable to have it able to do both.
Even assuming your previous logic made any sort of sense (it doesn't), this wouldn't follow from it. Just because association with an energy grants a trait, doesn't mean all creatures with that traits are associated with that energy. Just as you can do fire damage without being linked to fire, so to can you have fast healing without being linked to Positive.
On a relevant note, Vivacious creatures actually do have Fast Healing.
Minor nitpick: some of those are Regeneration, not Fast healing.Avatar by TinyMushroom.
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2017-12-15, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
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2017-12-15, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-12-15, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
Really, the whole thing could have been avoided with one word:
Originally Posted by Edited Text
On minor negative-dominant planes, living creatures take 1d6 points of damage per round. At 0 hit points or lower, they crumble into ash.
Major negative-dominant planes are even more severe. Each round, those within must make a DC 25 Fortitude save or gain a negative level. A creature whose negative levels equal its current levels or Hit Dice is slain, becoming a wraith. The death ward spell protects a traveler from the damage and energy drain of a negative-dominant plane.Remember, posting links to TVTropes is Vile.
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2017-12-15, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
Ok... So for me its simply that raw positive energy should not just give an ex abilty but simply heal. When it gives the already very specifically defined ex ability fast healing, its healing undead as well! I don't like the fast that positive energy apparently can give the fast healing ex ability. IMO it should be continues healing! Why does it matter you say, because fast healing is a specific defined thing.
So for me there is inconsistencies. The problem is that the traits of raw positive energy has not been defined, therefore it can do everything. I dont like that!
If both living and undead ar caught in ANY positive energy of any form, the living should be affected by some healing and the undead som harming effect. Thats not actually what happens!
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2017-12-15, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
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2017-12-15, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
Up until 3rd edition. healing was necromancy
Its just when 3rd ed came out the designer thought conjuration was the weakest of schools and so decided to slap a bunch of spells in it to 'shore up' its weaknesses.
It makes much more sense to be in necromancy and is easy enough to fix to correct it.
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2017-12-15, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
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2017-12-15, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
My sources I guess are more my guesses as to why they took all these spells from necromancy and evocation/invocation and gave them to conjuration. also took spells fr0m invocation/evocation and gave them to enchantment....but that's another story or another time
divination only has 1 opposition school not because its weak, but because it has no 'blasty mc blast blast' powers.
the creators of 3rd edition really had ZERO idea what they were doing when they created the new ruleset and whats his face (I want to say Monte Cook, but I could be wrong) only came out with the 'dumb people play fighters and smart people with system mastery will play wizards' as a cop out.. not as a mater of fact. and only after ton of people said 'hey this is not balanced anywhere near close to what you said, yo."
also.. I pesent the Orb of X spells that are conjuration instead of evocation as well as dozens of other that should be evocation but instead are conjuration cuz its weak.
they (the creators) just don't understand that using a 4th level spell slot to summon a creature that can cast a 3rd level spell twice then enter melee is a lot better than another spell that does Xd6 in Y shape with Z energy.
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2017-12-15, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
Fast Healing is continuous healing. That's literally exactly what the ability does, and that's all it does.
The problem of healing undead is still one that would exist if you replaced Fast Healing with the equivalent in long form. The problem, as somebody else so kindly points out, is that they don't say 'living creatures....' in the description of positive-dominant, and has nothing to do with that it grants Fast Healing.
Again, this is different from Negative Energy being able to both inflict negative levels, and inflict fatigue.....how? Yes, energies can be used to do several things. A power that lets you quench a fire to nothing uses fire energy just as much as the fireball that started it in the first place.
Or, to use a real-world example, like how electricity can both make a magnet move and to zap something.
Being harmed by positive energy isn't a universal trait of undead. That is something very specific to Cure spells (and some others), not healing in general. Note that undead traits say nothing about positive energy in any way.
While I do agree that positive-dominance should have specified it only applies to living people, I find the reasons you seem to be quibbling over it either completely irrelevant and petty (fast healing), or utterly baffling (energy does multiple things).Avatar by TinyMushroom.
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2017-12-15, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
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2017-12-15, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-12-15, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
Considering fast healing is like natural healing, it inherently does not run on positive energy. Fast Healing has nothing to do with positive energy.
If the positive energy plane were to heal you, then undead would be harmed! Now fast healing heals undead. That's counter intuitive.
I think positive energy should be positively poisonous to undead. Btw... can you heal living creatures with negative energy?
Well... I think it should be!
I respect your views on this matter. I just don't particularly like the ways positive energy is defined, nor how it interacts with undead. I feel like there is something wrong!
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2017-12-16, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
In libris mortis undead are quite specifically said as healing themselves by draining the positive energy of people under its various forms and throwing it into the negative energy place thus increasing entropy.
It would make sense for them when receiving positive energy continuously to have them heal(since they can throw the positive energy in the negative energy plane through the conduit that animate them)
The cure line as well as heal deals damage because you throw a whole lot of energy over a very short amount of time on one given location of the body.
While positive energy from the positive energy plane enters creatures at a constant rate and is spread among all the surface of the creature(and not just on a surface the size of a hand) and thus heal undead because they work as conduits toward the negative energy plane onto positive energy and strengthen when doing so.
So it 100% makes coherent fluff to have the positive energy plane heal the undead and it would also make sense those undead get the evolved template at a higher rate while in the positive energy plane(since they use a whole lot their connection to the negative energy plane for increasing entropy by sending positive energy through their link at a much higher rate than if they were just drinking the blood of humans or whatever)
The burst vs continuous aspect is furthermore suggested by the fact that the positive energy plane gives temporary hp at a rate comparable to the one of an undead draining energy as fast as possible(for example a vampire draining blood)Last edited by noob; 2017-12-16 at 08:58 AM.
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2017-12-16, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
Undead run on negative energy and the description of the positive energy plane says that it is nearly devoid of undead. Not overrun with million temporary HP super undead. There are numerous examples of positive energy harming undead specifically because it's positive energy. The fast healing thing is clearly an oversight and a mistake.
Anyway on to something more on topic:
Healing is clearly enchantment because they've managed to convince us it's conjuration for so long.
Healing is clearly an illusion because you're really just repairing living tissue by replacing cells. It looks like a miracle when really you're just doing repair work.So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
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2017-12-16, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
Healing clearly can't be necromancy, since necromancy is the art of gaining guidance or pregnistication from the dead, not manipulation of positive/negative energies. Stop calling me a necromancer, dammit! I'm a viviturgist!
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2017-12-16, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-12-16, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
How about promoting healing to a standalone school and demoting abjuration to sub-school?
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2017-12-16, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
I'd just making healing part of abjuration. One of the cleric's main jobs is super abjurer anyway. And it fits with being protective.
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2017-12-16, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
Perfectly coherent if we ignore the fact that they're harmed by positive energy and instinctively flee from it etc and that that passage was just an asspull because the game designers realized that vampires make absolutely no sense under the planescape cosmology but even with the asspull that still don;t make any sense because we're still left with the fact that they're harmed by positive energy, instinctively flee from it, etc etc.
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2017-12-16, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why healing is conjuration?
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