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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rijan_Sai View Post
    To the topic: yeah, I agree that Healing spells should be under Necromancy*. (I also think that Orb spells should be under Evocation, though mechanically unchanged... (WHAT?!? Evocation without SR? BLASPHEMY I say!))
    Yeah the (Creation) sub-school should be a descriptor instead -- i.e. [Creation] -- and should appear on some Conjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation spells.

    What I'd do about the Orb spells:
    - (Lesser) Acid Orb can stay Conjuration. Call it Melf's (Lesser) Acid Orb, perhaps, as justification.
    - (Lesser) Fire/Cold/Lightning Orb move to Evocation.
    - Remove the (Lesser) Sonic / Force Orb spells entirely.

    None of the Orb spells allow SR; all of them function the same. It's just that if you ban Evocation you only get Acid, which is still pretty good but way more situational than having all the Orbs.

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    Exclamation Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    What I hate more, that the vigor spell line actually gives fast healing, so that should be transmutation.
    Seems most spells that give fast healing are Conjuration (Healing), but I found two exceptions:

    - Incarnum Vigor (MoI) is Transmutation (Incarnum), and gives fast healing 1.

    - Snowsong (Fr) is Enchantment (Compulsion), and gives feat healing 1 (as well as other effects).

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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rijan_Sai View Post
    It gets even worse when you consider that the Positive Energy Plane itself, the source of all healing and bane of the existence of undead, is actually (one of) the greatest boon(s) to undead in the game!
    (Note: For the purpose of these quotes, and to save some space, for the most part only the relevant parts have been kept.)

    Spoiler: Massive digressive rant
    Show





    Note that, unlike Regeneration, Fast Healing has no requirement for a CON score.

    What does this mean? Put together:
    1)We see that undead only take damage from positive energy effects that specifically state that they harm undead, not positive energy in general.
    2)Undead are fully capable of having the Fast Healing(Ex) ability.
    3)Undead are immune to any effects that require a Fort save, but that do not affect objects.
    Thus, undead are able to "live" and thrive on the PEP, with HP in the NI range, based upon how long they've been there!


    To the topic: yeah, I agree that Healing spells should be under Necromancy*. (I also think that Orb spells should be under Evocation, though mechanically unchanged... (WHAT?!? Evocation without SR? BLASPHEMY I say!))

    *It works in other systems!
    ◾ Black Necromantic - Contains spells that negatively affect the life force of a creature.
    ◾ White Necromantic - Contains spells that positively affect the life force of a creature.
    WHO ARE THE FOOLS WHO MADE THE POSITIVE ENERGY PLANE DO FAST HEALING! Obviously is should heal you every round not give you an Ex ability! That will be changed in my campaign now!
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    WHO ARE THE FOOLS WHO MADE THE POSITIVE ENERGY PLANE DO FAST HEALING! Obviously is should heal you every round not give you an Ex ability! That will be changed in my campaign now!
    Well, they already have one mechanic for 'you heal a set amount every round', so why not re-use it? 'You gain Fast Haeling 5' and 'you regain 5 hit points every round, barring HP lost from some things' are the same, while the former takes up fewer words and doesn't require being as thorough, because the words and thoroughness have already been used on Fast healing's description.
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordaedil View Post
    Oh god that was a joke
    So do we put the straight up Cure spells in Green or White then? I mean, there are solid arguments for either one, but at the end of the day one gets claim on "Cure Light Wounds" and the other doesn't.

    Of course, Black would get all the "damage enemy>heal yourself" life drain stuff.
    Blue can have limited amounts, but only as part of Polymorph type effects, which would likely be Fast Healing related.
    Red is right out.
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Have you noticed how many conjuration (healing) spells there are? Especially on the cleric list. It's quite a big subschool. It should just be its own school, a sort of opposite of necromancy. Just call it healing.

    Necromancy could just as easily be evocation or transmutation.

    Really they didn't see it as quite big enough to make another school, especially a school that wizards don't really get many spells for if any. So they needed to force fit it into somewhere where it wouldn't get much notice.

    Having healing necromancers is also a bit of a bother. If anything healing is supposed to be anti-undead and anti-necromancy. It kinda works just because arcane necromancers don't get the spells. And because clerics can mostly do both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Well, they already have one mechanic for 'you heal a set amount every round', so why not re-use it? 'You gain Fast Haeling 5' and 'you regain 5 hit points every round, barring HP lost from some things' are the same, while the former takes up fewer words and doesn't require being as thorough, because the words and thoroughness have already been used on Fast healing's description.
    Because now they need explain why not undead. And need explain mean less word dumb not smart.
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Incidentally, can you tell or link me to a good source of those spheres? I was tinkering on something a while back and someone just piqued my interest in it again, but I don't actually know what those old spheres were so I've not much to tinker from.
    This is free and legal. The full list can be found in either the Tome Of Magic tab (which shows Elemental Sphere spells both together and separate) or the Player's Option: Spells & Magic tab (where they're only separate).

    Spoiler: Derp, or I could just write the list out
    Show
    All
    Animal
    Astral
    Chaos
    Charm
    Combat
    Creation
    Divination
    Elemental, Air
    Elemental, Earth
    Elemental, Fire
    Elemental, Water
    Guardian
    Healing
    Law
    Necromantic
    Numbers
    Plant
    Protection
    Summoning
    Sun
    Thought
    Time
    Travelers
    War
    Wards
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    Last edited by Dimers; 2017-12-15 at 02:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Because now they need explain why not undead. And need explain mean less word dumb not smart.
    1. Er, can you explain what you mean by the second sentence? That reads like a word salad, and I can't understand what you're trying to say.
    2. They have that problem either way. Healing isn't intrinsically damaging to undead. That's a special exception that the Cure X Wounds spells specifically make, not any kind of general rule.
    Avatar by TinyMushroom.

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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Well, they already have one mechanic for 'you heal a set amount every round', so why not re-use it? 'You gain Fast Haeling 5' and 'you regain 5 hit points every round, barring HP lost from some things' are the same, while the former takes up fewer words and doesn't require being as thorough, because the words and thoroughness have already been used on Fast healing's description.
    So creatures with fast healing are inherently positive energy loaded? In my veiw there has to be consistency. Either positive energy heals, or give fast healing. If it gives fast healing then all creatures with fast healing should be either from the Positive Energy Plane...

    From a quick google search, the following creatures have fast healing:
    Spoiler: Fast healing creatures
    Show

    Ethereal Doppelganger (MM2) - FH8
    Firbolg (MM2) - FH3
    Fomorian (MM2) - FH5
    Vampiric Ixitxachitl (MM2) - FH5
    *Spirit of the Land (MM2) - FH10
    Windghost (MM2) - FH3
    Harssaf (MM3) - FH3
    Odopi (MM3) - FH7 (or elder FH9)
    Lifeleech Otyugh (MM3) - FH5
    *Ragewalker (MM3) - FH5
    Runehound (MM3) - FH3
    Shrieking Terror (MM3) - FH5 (five-headed) or FH10 (ten-headed)
    Summoning Ooze (MM3) - FH5
    Trolls (MM3) - FH8 (cave troll), FH5 (forest), FH9 (mountain)
    *Avatars of Elemental Evil (MM4) - FH5
    *Bloodfire Ooze (MM4) - FH5
    Ogre Guard Thrall (MM4) - FH5
    Zern (MM4) - FH5
    Zern Blade Thrall (MM4) - FH2
    Elemental Mage (MM5) - FH5 (Ken-kuni), FH10 (Ken-li or Ken-Sun)
    Thoon Infiltrator (MM5) - FH5
    Madcrafter of Thoon (MM5)- FH5
    Thoon Elder Brain (MM5) - FH10
    *Zeitgeist (CityScape) - FH10
    *Fang Dragon, Ancient or older (Draconomicon) - FH2
    Battle Dragon, Old or older (Draconomicon) - FH2
    Chaoswyrd (Dragon Compendium) - FH10
    Venom Ooze (Drow of the Underdark) - FH3
    *Genius Loci (Epic Level Handbook) - FH50
    *LeShay (Epic Level Handbook) - FH10
    Mu Spore (Epic Level Handbook) - FH10
    *Ruin Swarm (Epic Level Handbook) - FH15
    Vermiurge (Epic Level Handbook) - FH10
    Bonespear (Fiend Folio) - FH5
    Darkweaver (Fiend Folio) - FH3
    Fossergrim (Fiend Folio) - FH5
    *Rukanyr (Fiend Folio) - FH5
    Chilblain (Frostburn) - FH10
    Ectoplasmic Vermin (Ghostwalk) - FH1 (any size)

    Chulcrix (Price of Courage\Dragonlance) - FH5
    Dolghast (Magic of Eberron\Eberron) - FH5
    Dekanter Goblin (Monsters of Faerun\Forgotten Realms) - FH3
    *Rock Wyrm (Silver Marches\Forgotten Realms) - FH1
    *Banelar Naga (Serpent Kingdoms\Forgotten Realms) - FH2
    Nagahydra (Serpent Kingdoms\Forgotten Realms) - FH15
    Dung Snake (Serpent Kingdoms\Forgotten Realms) - FH1
    Glacier Snake (Serpent Kingdoms\Forgotten Realms) - FH1
    Impervigen (Dangerous Denizens\Kingdoms of Kalamar) - FH2
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    So creatures with fast healing are inherently positive energy loaded?
    No, and I'm not sure how you'd extrapolate that from my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    In my veiw there has to be consistency.
    There is consistency. 'You heal for X HP every round' is consistently Fast Healing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Either positive energy heals, or give fast healing.
    That's a bit like saying 'either negative energy inflicts negative levels, or it animates undead'. There's no reason a whole energy should only be able to do only one thing, and it's perfectly reasonable to have it able to do both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    If it gives fast healing then all creatures with fast healing should be either from the Positive Energy Plane...
    Even assuming your previous logic made any sort of sense (it doesn't), this wouldn't follow from it. Just because association with an energy grants a trait, doesn't mean all creatures with that traits are associated with that energy. Just as you can do fire damage without being linked to fire, so to can you have fast healing without being linked to Positive.

    On a relevant note, Vivacious creatures actually do have Fast Healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    From a quick google search, the following creatures have fast healing:
    Spoiler: Fast healing creatures
    Show

    Ethereal Doppelganger (MM2) - FH8
    Firbolg (MM2) - FH3
    Fomorian (MM2) - FH5
    Vampiric Ixitxachitl (MM2) - FH5
    *Spirit of the Land (MM2) - FH10
    Windghost (MM2) - FH3
    Harssaf (MM3) - FH3
    Odopi (MM3) - FH7 (or elder FH9)
    Lifeleech Otyugh (MM3) - FH5
    *Ragewalker (MM3) - FH5
    Runehound (MM3) - FH3
    Shrieking Terror (MM3) - FH5 (five-headed) or FH10 (ten-headed)
    Summoning Ooze (MM3) - FH5
    Trolls (MM3) - FH8 (cave troll), FH5 (forest), FH9 (mountain)
    *Avatars of Elemental Evil (MM4) - FH5
    *Bloodfire Ooze (MM4) - FH5
    Ogre Guard Thrall (MM4) - FH5
    Zern (MM4) - FH5
    Zern Blade Thrall (MM4) - FH2
    Elemental Mage (MM5) - FH5 (Ken-kuni), FH10 (Ken-li or Ken-Sun)
    Thoon Infiltrator (MM5) - FH5
    Madcrafter of Thoon (MM5)- FH5
    Thoon Elder Brain (MM5) - FH10
    *Zeitgeist (CityScape) - FH10
    *Fang Dragon, Ancient or older (Draconomicon) - FH2
    Battle Dragon, Old or older (Draconomicon) - FH2
    Chaoswyrd (Dragon Compendium) - FH10
    Venom Ooze (Drow of the Underdark) - FH3
    *Genius Loci (Epic Level Handbook) - FH50
    *LeShay (Epic Level Handbook) - FH10
    Mu Spore (Epic Level Handbook) - FH10
    *Ruin Swarm (Epic Level Handbook) - FH15
    Vermiurge (Epic Level Handbook) - FH10
    Bonespear (Fiend Folio) - FH5
    Darkweaver (Fiend Folio) - FH3
    Fossergrim (Fiend Folio) - FH5
    *Rukanyr (Fiend Folio) - FH5
    Chilblain (Frostburn) - FH10
    Ectoplasmic Vermin (Ghostwalk) - FH1 (any size)

    Chulcrix (Price of Courage\Dragonlance) - FH5
    Dolghast (Magic of Eberron\Eberron) - FH5
    Dekanter Goblin (Monsters of Faerun\Forgotten Realms) - FH3
    *Rock Wyrm (Silver Marches\Forgotten Realms) - FH1
    *Banelar Naga (Serpent Kingdoms\Forgotten Realms) - FH2
    Nagahydra (Serpent Kingdoms\Forgotten Realms) - FH15
    Dung Snake (Serpent Kingdoms\Forgotten Realms) - FH1
    Glacier Snake (Serpent Kingdoms\Forgotten Realms) - FH1
    Impervigen (Dangerous Denizens\Kingdoms of Kalamar) - FH2
    Minor nitpick: some of those are Regeneration, not Fast healing.
    Avatar by TinyMushroom.

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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    1. Er, can you explain what you mean by the second sentence? That reads like a word salad, and I can't understand what you're trying to say.
    Exactly. Letting rules be confusing just so they can be shorter isn't a good thing.
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Exactly. Letting rules be confusing just so they can be shorter isn't a good thing.
    There's nothing ambiguous or confusing about what having Fast healing 5 means unless you lack familiarity with very basic game concepts and research skills.
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Really, the whole thing could have been avoided with one word:
    Quote Originally Posted by Edited Text
    Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A living creature on a major positive-dominant plane...
    It worked well enough for Negative-dominant planes
    On minor negative-dominant planes, living creatures take 1d6 points of damage per round. At 0 hit points or lower, they crumble into ash.

    Major negative-dominant planes are even more severe. Each round, those within must make a DC 25 Fortitude save or gain a negative level. A creature whose negative levels equal its current levels or Hit Dice is slain, becoming a wraith. The death ward spell protects a traveler from the damage and energy drain of a negative-dominant plane.
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    There's nothing ambiguous or confusing about what having Fast healing 5 means unless you lack familiarity with very basic game concepts and research skills.
    Ok... So for me its simply that raw positive energy should not just give an ex abilty but simply heal. When it gives the already very specifically defined ex ability fast healing, its healing undead as well! I don't like the fast that positive energy apparently can give the fast healing ex ability. IMO it should be continues healing! Why does it matter you say, because fast healing is a specific defined thing.

    So for me there is inconsistencies. The problem is that the traits of raw positive energy has not been defined, therefore it can do everything. I dont like that!

    If both living and undead ar caught in ANY positive energy of any form, the living should be affected by some healing and the undead som harming effect. Thats not actually what happens!
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rijan_Sai View Post
    Really, the whole thing could have been avoided with one word:

    "Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A living creature on a major positive-dominant plane..."

    It worked well enough for Negative-dominant planes

    "On minor negative-dominant planes, living creatures take 1d6 points of damage per round. At 0 hit points or lower, they crumble into ash.

    Major negative-dominant planes are even more severe. Each round, those within must make a DC 25 Fortitude save or gain a negative level. A creature whose negative levels equal its current levels or Hit Dice is slain, becoming a wraith. The death ward spell protects a traveler from the damage and energy drain of a negative-dominant plane."
    Which brings up another issue, which is that the problems aren't perfectly reversed between living and undead. An undead critter on the positive energy plane ought to lose hit dice.
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by ayvango View Post
    If heal operates positive energy, then it should rather be evocation. If someone consider positive energy out of evocation energies range, then heal should be necromancy, since necromancy works with negative energy and its perfectly normal to shift its positive counterpart to it. If we think that heal just mends body, than like mending and repair light wounds it should be transmutation. Why conjuration of all things?
    Up until 3rd edition. healing was necromancy

    Its just when 3rd ed came out the designer thought conjuration was the weakest of schools and so decided to slap a bunch of spells in it to 'shore up' its weaknesses.

    It makes much more sense to be in necromancy and is easy enough to fix to correct it.

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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    Its just when 3rd ed came out the designer thought conjuration was the weakest of schools
    That sounds unlikely. Do you have a source on that?

    (the weakest school in 2E is divination, and 3E's designers knew that: this is why diviners only get one opposition school instead of two)
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    That sounds unlikely. Do you have a source on that?

    (the weakest school in 2E is divination, and 3E's designers knew that: this is why diviners only get one opposition school instead of two)
    My sources I guess are more my guesses as to why they took all these spells from necromancy and evocation/invocation and gave them to conjuration. also took spells fr0m invocation/evocation and gave them to enchantment....but that's another story or another time

    divination only has 1 opposition school not because its weak, but because it has no 'blasty mc blast blast' powers.

    the creators of 3rd edition really had ZERO idea what they were doing when they created the new ruleset and whats his face (I want to say Monte Cook, but I could be wrong) only came out with the 'dumb people play fighters and smart people with system mastery will play wizards' as a cop out.. not as a mater of fact. and only after ton of people said 'hey this is not balanced anywhere near close to what you said, yo."


    also.. I pesent the Orb of X spells that are conjuration instead of evocation as well as dozens of other that should be evocation but instead are conjuration cuz its weak.

    they (the creators) just don't understand that using a 4th level spell slot to summon a creature that can cast a 3rd level spell twice then enter melee is a lot better than another spell that does Xd6 in Y shape with Z energy.

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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Ok... So for me its simply that raw positive energy should not just give an ex abilty but simply heal. When it gives the already very specifically defined ex ability fast healing, its healing undead as well! I don't like the fast that positive energy apparently can give the fast healing ex ability. IMO it should be continues healing!
    Fast Healing is continuous healing. That's literally exactly what the ability does, and that's all it does.

    The problem of healing undead is still one that would exist if you replaced Fast Healing with the equivalent in long form. The problem, as somebody else so kindly points out, is that they don't say 'living creatures....' in the description of positive-dominant, and has nothing to do with that it grants Fast Healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    So for me there is inconsistencies. The problem is that the traits of raw positive energy has not been defined, therefore it can do everything. I dont like that!
    Again, this is different from Negative Energy being able to both inflict negative levels, and inflict fatigue.....how? Yes, energies can be used to do several things. A power that lets you quench a fire to nothing uses fire energy just as much as the fireball that started it in the first place.

    Or, to use a real-world example, like how electricity can both make a magnet move and to zap something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    If both living and undead are caught in ANY positive energy of any form, the living should be affected by some healing and the undead some harming effect. That's not actually what happens!
    Being harmed by positive energy isn't a universal trait of undead. That is something very specific to Cure spells (and some others), not healing in general. Note that undead traits say nothing about positive energy in any way.

    While I do agree that positive-dominance should have specified it only applies to living people, I find the reasons you seem to be quibbling over it either completely irrelevant and petty (fast healing), or utterly baffling (energy does multiple things).
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    (the weakest school in 2E is divination, and 3E's designers knew that: this is why diviners only get one opposition school instead of two)
    "Healing in Conjuration, cause weak" could still be true, just that it's hard to shove random-ish spells into Divination and still have them make sense.
    Most other schools have a bit more flexibility in what can make sense.
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    "Healing in Conjuration, cause weak" could still be true, just that it's hard to shove random-ish spells into Divination and still have them make sense.
    Most other schools have a bit more flexibility in what can make sense.
    Healing is idiomatic of Divine magic, therefore it's in Divination.

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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Fast Healing is continuous healing. That's literally exactly what the ability does, and that's all it does.
    Considering fast healing is like natural healing, it inherently does not run on positive energy. Fast Healing has nothing to do with positive energy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    The problem of healing undead is still one that would exist if you replaced Fast Healing with the equivalent in long form. The problem, as somebody else so kindly points out, is that they don't say 'living creatures....' in the description of positive-dominant, and has nothing to do with that it grants Fast Healing.
    If the positive energy plane were to heal you, then undead would be harmed! Now fast healing heals undead. That's counter intuitive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Again, this is different from Negative Energy being able to both inflict negative levels, and inflict fatigue.....how? Yes, energies can be used to do several things. A power that lets you quench a fire to nothing uses fire energy just as much as the fireball that started it in the first place.
    I think positive energy should be positively poisonous to undead. Btw... can you heal living creatures with negative energy?


    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Being harmed by positive energy isn't a universal trait of undead. That is something very specific to Cure spells (and some others), not healing in general. Note that undead traits say nothing about positive energy in any way.
    Well... I think it should be!

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    While I do agree that positive-dominance should have specified it only applies to living people, I find the reasons you seem to be quibbling over it either completely irrelevant and petty (fast healing), or utterly baffling (energy does multiple things).
    I respect your views on this matter. I just don't particularly like the ways positive energy is defined, nor how it interacts with undead. I feel like there is something wrong!
    Last edited by Melcar; 2017-12-15 at 08:09 PM.
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    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    In libris mortis undead are quite specifically said as healing themselves by draining the positive energy of people under its various forms and throwing it into the negative energy place thus increasing entropy.
    It would make sense for them when receiving positive energy continuously to have them heal(since they can throw the positive energy in the negative energy plane through the conduit that animate them)
    The cure line as well as heal deals damage because you throw a whole lot of energy over a very short amount of time on one given location of the body.
    While positive energy from the positive energy plane enters creatures at a constant rate and is spread among all the surface of the creature(and not just on a surface the size of a hand) and thus heal undead because they work as conduits toward the negative energy plane onto positive energy and strengthen when doing so.

    So it 100% makes coherent fluff to have the positive energy plane heal the undead and it would also make sense those undead get the evolved template at a higher rate while in the positive energy plane(since they use a whole lot their connection to the negative energy plane for increasing entropy by sending positive energy through their link at a much higher rate than if they were just drinking the blood of humans or whatever)
    The burst vs continuous aspect is furthermore suggested by the fact that the positive energy plane gives temporary hp at a rate comparable to the one of an undead draining energy as fast as possible(for example a vampire draining blood)
    Last edited by noob; 2017-12-16 at 08:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Undead run on negative energy and the description of the positive energy plane says that it is nearly devoid of undead. Not overrun with million temporary HP super undead. There are numerous examples of positive energy harming undead specifically because it's positive energy. The fast healing thing is clearly an oversight and a mistake.

    Anyway on to something more on topic:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Healing is idiomatic of Divine magic, therefore it's in Divination.
    Healing is clearly enchantment because they've managed to convince us it's conjuration for so long.
    Healing is clearly an illusion because you're really just repairing living tissue by replacing cells. It looks like a miracle when really you're just doing repair work.
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Healing clearly can't be necromancy, since necromancy is the art of gaining guidance or pregnistication from the dead, not manipulation of positive/negative energies. Stop calling me a necromancer, dammit! I'm a viviturgist!
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Healing clearly can't be necromancy, since necromancy is the art of gaining guidance or pregnistication from the dead
    But it was!

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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    How about promoting healing to a standalone school and demoting abjuration to sub-school?

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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    I'd just making healing part of abjuration. One of the cleric's main jobs is super abjurer anyway. And it fits with being protective.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    In libris mortis undead are quite specifically said as healing themselves by draining the positive energy of people under its various forms and throwing it into the negative energy place thus increasing entropy.
    It would make sense for them when receiving positive energy continuously to have them heal(since they can throw the positive energy in the negative energy plane through the conduit that animate them)
    The cure line as well as heal deals damage because you throw a whole lot of energy over a very short amount of time on one given location of the body.
    While positive energy from the positive energy plane enters creatures at a constant rate and is spread among all the surface of the creature(and not just on a surface the size of a hand) and thus heal undead because they work as conduits toward the negative energy plane onto positive energy and strengthen when doing so.

    So it 100% makes coherent fluff to have the positive energy plane heal the undead and it would also make sense those undead get the evolved template at a higher rate while in the positive energy plane(since they use a whole lot their connection to the negative energy plane for increasing entropy by sending positive energy through their link at a much higher rate than if they were just drinking the blood of humans or whatever)
    The burst vs continuous aspect is furthermore suggested by the fact that the positive energy plane gives temporary hp at a rate comparable to the one of an undead draining energy as fast as possible(for example a vampire draining blood)
    Perfectly coherent if we ignore the fact that they're harmed by positive energy and instinctively flee from it etc and that that passage was just an asspull because the game designers realized that vampires make absolutely no sense under the planescape cosmology but even with the asspull that still don;t make any sense because we're still left with the fact that they're harmed by positive energy, instinctively flee from it, etc etc.
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    Default Re: Why healing is conjuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Being harmed by positive energy isn't a universal trait of undead. That is something very specific to Cure spells (and some others), not healing in general. Note that undead traits say nothing about positive energy in any way.
    Specifically it's idiomatic to positive energy healing spells. That said you are technically correct as regards to interactions between healing and the undead; the repair damage series, for example, does nothing to them IIRC
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