Why healing is conjuration?

[ayvango]

Do wizards even have Conjuration (Healing) spells available to them?

Arcane Disciple feat adds healing spells to your class spell list. They would remain Conjuration (Healing)

[Mordaedil]

There's still a handful of positive energy type spells left in the necromancy line actually.

There's Undeath to Death and Undeath's Eternal Foe which grants a bunch of immunities to negative energy effects by infusing the subject with positive energy.

Really, cure spells and raise spells makes more sense to be in the necromancy line than conjuration line, the only arguments to contrary I can think of being that you create or teleport in flesh to replace old flesh or call the subjects soul to your side to raise the dead.

[Ashtagon]

Back in 1e/2e days, healing was in the Necromantic school. 3e changed that. This much is common knowledge.

Aside from the "some designers wanted necromancy to be the 'evil' school but only did a half-hearted job of it" theory, something else worth noting is that, back in 1e/2e days, the most significant game rule interaction that schools of magic had was in how they interacted with the planes, as illustrated by Manual of the Planes and various Planescape books.

(There were specialist wizards introduced in 2e in the Complete Wizard book (broadly equivalent to the specialist wizard option in the 3.0/3.5 PHB books). As I recall, they weren't popular in the day. The same chapter in the 2e PHBR book that defined these specialist wizard subclasses also encouraged DMs to create new subclasses, re-assigning spells from existing specialist wizards or assigning spells to multiple specialist wizards as desired. (It was left undefined what would happen if a spell was only assigned to a DM-created school and an adventure was happening on a plane that affected spells based on school of magic.) The PHBR also introduced kits (sets of optional class features). Some of these defined preferred or barred specialist wizard subclasses, but nothing beyond that. However, given that 1e/2e wizards had no access to the healing spells regardless of school, it's pretty much a diversion.)

[Kurald Galain]

[COLOR="#A9A9A9"](There were specialist wizards introduced in 2e in the Complete Wizard book

They're in the PHB. It surely depends on the area, but getting an extra spell of each level per day almost doubles your magic ability (especially as they didn't get bonus spells from high ability scores in 2E) so it was very popular where I played.

The best schools in 2E were transmutation and evocation because they had way more spells than anything else in the game. One of the aims of the Compllete Wizard handbook was to print enough divination and necromancy spells to make these specializations viable.

While the classification in 3E isn't perfect, it is much better than in 2E (which had teleportation under transmutation since "it alters your position"...)

[Ashtagon]

They're in the PHB. It surely depends on the area, but getting an extra spell of each level per day almost doubles your magic ability (especially as they didn't get bonus spells from high ability scores in 2E) so it was very popular.
...

And as I noted, it's an aside in the overall discussion, since the only 2e game effect for having healing spells in necromancy was how it interacted with the planes.

[Mordaedil]

I mean, given the move of healing spells to the conjuration school, they technically shouldn't affect undead anymore, since it's fixing the flesh now, not manipulating positive energy like a necromancer would.

I find it strange what traditions they hold on to hardcore and others they let go without second thought.

[Crake]

I mean, given the move of healing spells to the conjuration school, they technically shouldn't affect undead anymore, since it's fixing the flesh now, not manipulating positive energy like a necromancer would.

I find it strange what traditions they hold on to hardcore and others they let go without second thought.

I always figured it was conjuring positive energy from the positive energy plane? Raw positive energy fixes flesh, as noted by the fact that being on the positive energy plane and being exposed to raw positive energy that way heals you. It's not like it's conjuring flesh and applying it to your body or something?

[SangoProduction]

It seems some of the designers wanted it to be Evil and others did not, so they ended up making it half-evil. Semi-evil. Quasi-evil. The margarine of evil. The Diet Coke of evil, just one calorie, not evil enough.

I always get confused whether people mean "calorie" or "Calorie" (food calorie), when they say "calorie".

[weckar]

I always get confused whether people mean "calorie" or "Calorie" (food calorie), when they say "calorie".

You mean kilocalories, right? A 'large calorie'?

[The_Iron_Lord]

I always figured it was conjuring positive energy from the positive energy plane? Raw positive energy fixes flesh, as noted by the fact that being on the positive energy plane and being exposed to raw positive energy that way heals you. It's not like it's conjuring flesh and applying it to your body or something?

This has always been my position too, though I wouldn't object to the healing spells being moved to Evocation. But Necromancy doesn't really make sense to me because it rarely deals with positive energy, so giving it what are basically the quintessential positive energy spells seems strange.

[Zanos]

I always figured it was conjuring positive energy from the positive energy plane? Raw positive energy fixes flesh, as noted by the fact that being on the positive energy plane and being exposed to raw positive energy that way heals you. It's not like it's conjuring flesh and applying it to your body or something?

That's the excuse, yeah. But getting raw negative energy and throwing it into people is Necromancy instead of Conjuration(Hurting).

[Kurald Galain]

At this point, it's probably worth mentioning that after 3E, the wizard specializations dropped abjuration and divination in favor of pyromancy (not the same as evocation), nethermancy (not the same as necromancy), two distinct types of illusion, full moon, and dark moon.

So yeah, the eight schools are not so bad There's still room for improvement though, and I'd personally say the best fit for healing is Transmutation (as in, reshaping flesh to be whole again).

[Malimar]

There's still room for improvement though, and I'd personally say the best fit for healing is Transmutation (as in, reshaping flesh to be whole again).

Indeed, the repair X damage line is Transmutation.

Me, I leave cure X wounds as conjuration as default but would allow people to research necromancy, evocation, or transmutation versions if it were important, which it isn't.

[Bohandas]

That's the excuse, yeah. But getting raw negative energy and throwing it into people is Necromancy instead of Conjuration(Hurting).

And fire or electricity is evocation

[Bohandas]

I kinda think it'd be worth bringing the priest spheres back for D&D 3.5E, since the spheres allowed for a whole bunch of different and unique priest types with their own spell lists based on which spheres they did or did not have access to.

That's a really good idea

[Nifft]

That's the excuse, yeah. But getting raw negative energy and throwing it into people is Necromancy instead of Conjuration(Hurting).

This.

It is just an excuse.

There's no coherent explanation which can cleanly justify 3.x spell placement.

Even if you wanted to buy the excuse, you still get Necromancy spells like false life which behave much like the Positive Energy plane.

[PaucaTerrorem]

You're conjuring/creating new flesh, right?

But in all seriousness, we all know that 3.x spell schools aren't not the best designed. So what does it matter?
If you're a player looking for an optimization loophole just talk to your DM about it.
If you're the DM and you don't like how it's set up, change it and inform your players.

[flare'90]

FWIW, 5e puts cure spells in evocation, since they manipulate (positive) energy.

[grarrrg]

FWIW, 5e puts cure spells in evocation, since they manipulate (positive) energy.

They were Necromancy, moved to Conjuration, moved to Evocation...
So by D&D 11th edition we should expect Cure spells in Divination?

[Nifft]

They were Necromancy, moved to Conjuration, moved to Evocation...
So by D&D 11th edition we should expect Cure spells in Divination?

Divination version: "Ah-ha! I knew in advance that I'd need this band-aid!"

[ExLibrisMortis]

They were Necromancy, moved to Conjuration, moved to Evocation...
So by D&D 11th edition we should expect Cure spells in Divination?

Well, I suppose...

A lot of effects have reasons to be in different schools depending on how the spell accomplishes said effect.

Abjuration	Ward or shield a create against existing wounds? More of a preventive school, really.
Conjuration	Draw positive energy from the Positive Energy Plane directly, or summon a unicorn.
Divination	See into the wound, know how to cure it. +yes to Heal.
Enchantment	You're better off without that leg anyway. It was holding you back! (this particular one not NSFW, but beware)
Evocation	Manipulate or create positive energy.
Illusion	Placebo effect. aka shadow conjuration/evocation
Necromancy	Manipulate the energies of death, except the other way 'round.
Transmutation	Change wounds into healthy flesh.

[Thurbane]

I always figured it was conjuring positive energy from the positive energy plane? Raw positive energy fixes flesh, as noted by the fact that being on the positive energy plane and being exposed to raw positive energy that way heals you.

That was my assumption as well; I mean, aside from the obvious "necromancy is eeeevil" thing the devs were going for...

[Ashtagon]

The summoning version of healing spells is a bit creepy, mind you.

[noob]

You could also have an illusion healing spell that makes illusory flesh and few people is going to make the difference between the 60% illusory flesh and the real flesh(the same way people do not recognize a simulacrum from a real person or recognize an illusory fireball from a real one)
someone who lost all limbs and got them healed back by an illusion will still have 40% chance of interacting normally with an object or with a person who succeeded a save against the illusion(unless you make super cool illusory flesh like the one of a simulacrum)

[Mordaedil]

I see why people explain it away like that and it's true that is how they justify it, but again, it's kinda justifying something that had no need to be justified prior to 3e.

We're applying the logic backwards. Putting it in evocation makes just as much sense honestly. But its home is necromancy and that won't change no matter what future editions do.

Well, unless they drop schools of magic to adopt the MTG cards so that the settings bleed over, and wizards become planeswalkers instead.

[noob]

Except that in magic the gathering at start there was no planeswalkers : there was wizards and artificers.
A planeswalker is a particular thing and players were wizard at start(then they got switched to planeswalkers because it is supposed to be some form of upgraded wizard or artificer)
So by that logic if dnd is merged with magic the gathering then we might keep wizards and artificers and have planeswalker as a prc or template.

[grarrrg]

Except that in magic the gathering at start there was no planeswalkers : there was wizards and artificers.
A planeswalker is a particular thing and players were wizard at start(then they got switched to planeswalkers because it is supposed to be some form of upgraded wizard or artificer)

Actually the players were Planeswalkers from the very beginning, but they weren't necessarily referred to as "Planeswalkers".
(and pre-mending Planeswalkers were often times god-like in power, but then apocolypses, and 'cosmic reset button' and now I just use lowercase planeswalkers, and...)

[Mordaedil]

Oh god that was a joke

[Melcar]

If heal operates positive energy, then it should rather be evocation. If someone consider positive energy out of evocation energies range, then heal should be necromancy, since necromancy works with negative energy and its perfectly normal to shift its positive counterpart to it. If we think that heal just mends body, than like mending and repair light wounds it should be transmutation. Why conjuration of all things?

So... the reason afaik, is that is simple conjures up or basically summons positive energy from the positive energy plane...


What I hate more, that the vigor spell line actually gives fast healing, so that should be transmutation.

What is also a problem is the inconsistency of how positive energy works. Like, the simple jist is that positive energy heals living and damages undead. However that is not the case in all aspects. The Radiant Servant of Pelor has a positive energy burst that only damages undead.

Overall I believe it comes down to sloppy design or more precisely inconsistencies of different designers. Personally I have rectified this when I DM...

[Rijan_Sai]

What is also a problem is the inconsistency of how positive energy works. Like, the simple jist is that positive energy heals living and damages undead. However that is not the case in all aspects. The Radiant Servant of Pelor has a positive energy burst that only damages undead.

Overall I believe it comes down to sloppy design or more precisely inconsistencies of different designers. Personally I have rectified this when I DM...

It gets even worse when you consider that the Positive Energy Plane itself, the source of all healing and bane of the existence of undead, is actually (one of) the greatest boon(s) to undead in the game!
(Note: For the purpose of these quotes, and to save some space, for the most part only the relevant parts have been kept.)

Spoiler: Massive digressive rant

Show

Positive-Dominant

Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive-dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, killing it.

(Undead) Traits

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
•No Constitution score.
•Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

Fast Healing

A creature with fast healing has the extraordinary ability to regain hit points at an exceptional rate. Except for what is noted here, fast healing is like natural healing.

At the beginning of each of the creature’s turns, it heals a certain number of hit points (defined in its description).

Unlike regeneration, fast healing does not allow a creature to regrow or reattach lost body parts. Unless otherwise stated, it does not allow lost body parts to be reattached.

A creature that has taken both nonlethal and lethal damage heals the nonlethal damage first.

Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

Fast healing does not increase the number of hit points regained when a creature polymorphs.

Note that, unlike Regeneration, Fast Healing has no requirement for a CON score.

What does this mean? Put together:
1)We see that undead only take damage from positive energy effects that specifically state that they harm undead, not positive energy in general.
2)Undead are fully capable of having the Fast Healing(Ex) ability.
3)Undead are immune to any effects that require a Fort save, but that do not affect objects.
Thus, undead are able to "live" and thrive on the PEP, with HP in the NI range, based upon how long they've been there!

To the topic: yeah, I agree that Healing spells should be under Necromancy*. (I also think that Orb spells should be under Evocation, though mechanically unchanged... (WHAT?!? Evocation without SR? BLASPHEMY I say!))

*It works in other systems!
◾ Black Necromantic - Contains spells that negatively affect the life force of a creature.
◾ White Necromantic - Contains spells that positively affect the life force of a creature.