Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Traab]

Since previous thread hit page 51, here we go. I think this one got the most upvotes for title.

Previous thread here.

[McNum]

Eh, internal consistency is overrated.

Though that does make me wonder. Which upsets do we actually like here? You know, where it seems like one character should win, but the other one actually has an unexpected upper hand.

I'd say Starscream vs. Rainbow Dash still counts as one of the funnier upsets. In part because G1 Starscream is just not that big a threat. And also got eaten by a pony for the KO. That's always funny. Also because they made a followup video where they went to a Transformers convention and asked who'd win between the two and it was almost unanimous... for Rainbow Dash.

Perhaps slightly more controversial, I did like Raiden vs. Wolverine That one did come down to that one hotly debated question... HF Blade vs. Adamantium. What happens? I honestly didn't expect it to cut, but this is Metal Gear Rising Raiden. If it exists, it shall be cut! And cut it was, though with some force required.

So what upsets do you think were actually okay?

[Knaight]

I'd consider Yang beating Tifa completely fine, to pull that over from the previous thread. RWBY is a pretty gonzo setting with a very high bar for what standard human capabilities look like (as seen with the amount of environmental damage that comes from people being thrown into stuff in general), and FF is generally more grounded when directly depicting in universe events and not being strictly representational.

[Durkoala]

Eh, internal consistency is overrated.

Though that does make me wonder. Which upsets do we actually like here? You know, where it seems like one character should win, but the other one actually has an unexpected upper hand.

I'd say Starscream vs. Rainbow Dash still counts as one of the funnier upsets. In part because G1 Starscream is just not that big a threat. And also got eaten by a pony for the KO. That's always funny. Also because they made a followup video where they went to a Transformers convention and asked who'd win between the two and it was almost unanimous... for Rainbow Dash.

Perhaps slightly more controversial, I did like Raiden vs. Wolverine That one did come down to that one hotly debated question... HF Blade vs. Adamantium. What happens? I honestly didn't expect it to cut, but this is Metal Gear Rising Raiden. If it exists, it shall be cut! And cut it was, though with some force required.

So what upsets do you think were actually okay?

Welp, I guess I'll say it again, I like Superman vs Goku and found the solution both novel and making a degree of sense. Both fighters' power is whatever the plot says it is and both are so strong they break the physics that's normally used to measure them. However, Superman's response to a stronger opponent is to gather his determination and either punch harder or find a solution that isn't about directly hitting them, while Goku will go and train to become stronger. Superman unleashes power he wasn't using before, Goku trains up to make himself stronger for a rematch, Superman always had the power, but Goku needs to increase his strength to overcome his opponents.

Obviously, this isn't a metric to declare that Superman should have the advantage in an actual crossover fight, but I like it for being a somewhat tongue-in-cheek answer to an impossible question.

[Reddish Mage]

I would say some episodes are clear cases of favoritism/bias/trolling-for-views (Superman/Goku, Yang/Tifa, Gaara/Toph and WW/Thor for example), but most of their mistakes are probably just out of honest incompetence... And most of them aren't too absurd.

They do occasionally make quite well-thought battles, actually (like Zangief vs Haggar).

I don't see Superman/Goku and WW/Thor as examples of clear bias, I don't even disagree with the outcomes. Superman v Goku they worked with a lot of collaborators. If there was a plan to besmirch Goku it would be a far ranging conspiracy. The Superman v Goku battles have also been talked to death. If ever they were to admit, or someone was going to slip, that they were ignoring evidence that Goku should win this would be it.

They are hardly the only ones to think that Superman would beat Goku. Here's yet another analysis.

I'd have liked to see some analysis in the second match to tell me better where Goku is nowadays in terms of strength and endurance simply because DB usually uses a one on one comparative feat analysis (something one did vs the other) to justify the victory as well. They said a lot about the absurd stuff Superman did (hold a blackhole in his hand, tank Supernovas and a Red Sun, etc), but not what sort of things Goku had gotten hit by.

However, in the end the strongest argument I think was the one Durkoala (and DB) makes about Superman's stories suggesting he is limitless and Goku's story always being about Goku overcoming the next limit.

Complaining that Superman should be vulnerable to Goku's Ki-based powers (which DB argues against) or determine the fight based on the statements that Goku could destroy universes is really an argument away from more provable metrics and towards relying on interpretations of esoteric feats.

Yang v Tifa I can see how a strict analysis based on Yang's feat in S2E5 of RWBY could beat what Tifa does in animations. I don't like how they deal with Final Fantasy characters, but I'm not prepared to say they are simply arbitrarily ignoring Tifa's capabilities. I think they are ignoring their capabilities after they basically kicked it around a bit and realized that a customizable JRPG characters capabilities are really hard to fix (especially with the broken materia and equipment available in game).

Gaara vs Toph is a clear victory for Gaara for lots of reasons, but I can imagine they made a bad decision here. If every fight was as clear as this one, I might be prepared to admit that DB was just about trolling various fandoms by having weak opponents beat their favorite characters.

[Anteros]

I'm really just commenting to mark the new thread. Don't feel like engaging in this debate again.

To me, it seems so obvious that they chase views over accuracy that I don't think there's really anything to talk about with someone who takes them seriously. The views are just too divergent for any meaningful dialogue to take place.

[Forum Explorer]

Eh, internal consistency is overrated.

Though that does make me wonder. Which upsets do we actually like here? You know, where it seems like one character should win, but the other one actually has an unexpected upper hand.

I'd say Starscream vs. Rainbow Dash still counts as one of the funnier upsets. In part because G1 Starscream is just not that big a threat. And also got eaten by a pony for the KO. That's always funny. Also because they made a followup video where they went to a Transformers convention and asked who'd win between the two and it was almost unanimous... for Rainbow Dash.

Perhaps slightly more controversial, I did like Raiden vs. Wolverine That one did come down to that one hotly debated question... HF Blade vs. Adamantium. What happens? I honestly didn't expect it to cut, but this is Metal Gear Rising Raiden. If it exists, it shall be cut! And cut it was, though with some force required.

So what upsets do you think were actually okay?

Pinkie Pie vs Deadpool, though that result (or something similar) was predicted by a lot of people.

I'd consider Yang beating Tifa completely fine, to pull that over from the previous thread. RWBY is a pretty gonzo setting with a very high bar for what standard human capabilities look like (as seen with the amount of environmental damage that comes from people being thrown into stuff in general), and FF is generally more grounded when directly depicting in universe events and not being strictly representational.

Yes and no. Sometimes the fight will have a bunch of crazy effects and weird stuff, and sometimes it won't. Again, the Neo vs Yang fight has basically nothing special about it.

We don't know how powerful Neo is. She never fought anyone and lost, although she fled from Raven.

We don't know how much Tifa's final combo does. Numbers on the screen do not translate into anything measurable, at least DB never even attempted to suggest it does. They measure it as doing less damage.

We also know that she wouldn't fight against all of RWBY, even when she had Torchwick backing her up.

As for Tifa's final combo, you can put numbers to it. Calculate just how much damage it can do (which is easily figured out, go by the minimum level needed to get those abilities, equip the gear she had in the fight then do the math.) Then you can see what the strongest boss that Tifa could one-shot with that much damage. Then you can look at the feats that boss performed as well.

[Rater202]

I'd like to point out again that Superman has a documented vulnerability to both Ki/chi and divine energies, the ki/chi weakness being documented several years before the first Superman vs Goku fight and mentioned as being a severe weakness on the level of kryptonite, and that you can learn about that ki vulnerabillity, with a citation to the storyline where it was documented, just by reading Superman's DC wiki page which should be the very first thing someone researching Superman should do.

That Goku v Superman wasn't a curb stomp in Goku's favor either time indicates that either Screwattack failed to do basic research or they blatantly ignored that basic research.(since they didn't even mention it)

[Reddish Mage]

I'm really just commenting to mark the new thread. Don't feel like engaging in this debate again.

To me, it seems so obvious that they chase views over accuracy that I don't think there's really anything to talk about with someone who takes them seriously. The views are just too divergent for any meaningful dialogue to take place.

You haven’t debated me on this subject in the first place. Also, my view is hardly so bold as to say that Screw Attack cares about accuracy over matters they have a vested interest in, like getting views and providing entertainment. My position is that things like getting views and providing entertainment need not get in the way of doing a good-faith analysis of the fights they put up.

I’m willing to accept that Screw Attack wants views, and that they put on the show for entertainment. I don’t see any reason why that means they are going around trolling popular characters by having weak fighters take them down, or that this is even a successful business model.

I’ve been debating for a page or two against those saying outright that DB is ignoring the results of their own analysis to pick winners for dishonest reasons. Its hard to tell, but I think the primary theory being advanced is that Death Battle trolls especially loyal fanbases on the theory that this translates into increased views.

That’s a bit beyond DB simply being wrong, or desiring to entertain, or wanting views. Even the term “biased” is a rather weak word to describe what’s being advanced.

There is plenty to talk about regarding these battles other than whether DB is fixing the fights. Such as who should win the fight and why they should win.

I'd like to point out again that Superman has a documented vulnerability to both Ki/chi and divine energies...you can learn about that ki vulnerabillity, with a citation to the storyline where it was documented, just by reading Superman's DC wiki page which should be the very first thing someone researching Superman should do.

That Goku v Superman wasn't a curb stomp in Goku's favor either time indicates that either Screwattack failed to do basic research or they blatantly ignored that basic research.(since they didn't even mention it)

The DC page under the heading “weakness to Chi” says “Lex Luthor and Question argued that, because of Superman's solar based powers, planetary based esoteric and vital forces could have an opposite effect on him.” It continues in the same vein, but never states that the strategy ever was used on Superman effectively.

Here is what one fan says http://screwattack.roosterteeth.com/post/51231564. He brings a page out of the comic that implies Lex’s use of “Chi” here is something more magical.

I disagree that the DC wiki is necessarily “the first place” to look for serious research. When I do serious research, I rarely even look at Wikipedia, preferring more official and recognized sources.

Wiz and Boomstick do address Ki by saying that Superman does not have a weakness to Ki and Ki in Dragonball is very clearly not magic. They preface that discussion with “put down your pitchfolks” so they indicate they are quite aware there is a whole line of discussion surrounding Superman being weak to Ki attacks.

DB does not and should not let itself get bogged down by bringing up lots of specific comics, let alone wiki pages, just to argue why certain comics are irrelevant to their analysis. The point of the show is not to convince die hard fans to change their views on the subject, but to entertain and present their own analysis.

They are entertainment, they have to cram all they do into a 10 to 20 minute episode that is centered around a big fight scene that they are willing to admit is for entertainment rather than meant to be an accurate. They have an expansive introduction to the characters, including a description of their powers. This usually leaves only a brief few minutes Post-fight to explain the outcome.

Finally, my understanding is that Superman just throws off magical control when he really needs to. The assumption of the fight is Superman is fighting a no-holds-bar deathbattle (which is uncharacteristic of Superman) and is going all out. I haven’t read enough of the comics to know if he can beat back powerful magic if he gets really serious, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there is evidence he could.

Note I would contrast this behavior, where DB indicate they are quite aware of the arguments in favor of Goku, with the Gaara v. Toph battle, where I think there is no awareness at all of Tophs limitations surrounding sand, or the sheer scale of Gaara’s ninja powers. That battle, at least, was sloppily done, and if there were lots of battles at that level of analysis I wouldn’t be talking this way about Death Battle as a whole.

Superman v. Goku (both battles) looks well thought out to me.

[Kato]

Wow, was that the third post that brought up "the thing" this time? This has to be a record..

Just to attempt to derail this discussion.. What are fights you would like to see next season?

[Dragonus45]

I would love to see them branch into some literary stuff that doesn't necessarily have visual media. Purely so I can watch Harry Dresden lose a fight and then rage about it for the next three years.

[Anteros]

Wow, was that the third post that brought up "the thing" this time? This has to be a record..

Just to attempt to derail this discussion.. What are fights you would like to see next season?

No preference on particular fights, but I'd like to see them put more effort into the choreography and animations. That's the only parts I really care about, and they've been mailing it in.

Also, less outright lies when it comes to the "science" would be nice, but I'm not going to hold my breath for that.

[Forum Explorer]

Wow, was that the third post that brought up "the thing" this time? This has to be a record..

Just to attempt to derail this discussion.. What are fights you would like to see next season?

Nanoha Takamachi vs Lina Inverse. Battle of the explosion mages!

Discord vs Bill Cypher

Sans vs not!Bill Cypher (seriously, where did this match up come from and why do I see it all over the place?)

Chara vs Kefka

I would love to see them branch into some literary stuff that doesn't necessarily have visual media. Purely so I can watch Harry Dresden lose a fight and then rage about it for the next three years.

Harry Dresden vs Harry Potter.

[Rynjin]

Harry Dresden vs Harry Potter.

I'd put that in Dresden's favor for simple fact that guns are a threat to wizards in HP.

As for me, Ippo vs Little Mac has seemed a no brainier thematic match for a while. Ippo vs anyone really. Or Takamura. Takamura vs Billy from Adventure Time, why not. They both also fought a bear.

I just want Hajime no Ippo to get some love I guess. Season 2 and 3 dub when?

Keeping with the anime theme, a non-fighty battle would be cool. Something weird like Kaiji vs Yugi Muto in a no holds barred gambling match of some kind.

Also Kaiji season 3: This time it's mahjong when?

[Future Sword]

I'd like to see a battle between two characters I know anything about. Most of the latest ones I can remember are fighters I either sorta recognise or have literally never heard of.

[Anteros]

Maybe Constantine and some other trickster. Loki?

[McNum]

Wow, was that the third post that brought up "the thing" this time? This has to be a record..

Just to attempt to derail this discussion.. What are fights you would like to see next season?

Donald vs. Daffy, battle of the ducks!

Of course, said fight would escalate hilariously when Daffy puts on his Green Lantern ring and Donald pulls out his superhero arsenal from the Paperinik/Duck Avenger series including his Exotransformer shield that does a bit of everything and his star cruiser.

The superhero parts of the fight should be kept entirely under wraps in the previews, of course. With the first half of the presentations talking about the ducks as per normal... and then they add the superhero stuff in the full episode showing that it's not actually Donald vs. Daffy, but The Duck Avenger vs. Duck Dodgers!

That and I kind of want to see them try to explain PKNA to an audience that doesn't know the crazy European Donald Duck comics. "And then Donald Duck got into his giant mech and wrestled the giant alien."

[Anteros]

Donald vs. Daffy, battle of the ducks!

Of course, said fight would escalate hilariously when Daffy puts on his Green Lantern ring and Donald pulls out his superhero arsenal from the Paperinik/Duck Avenger series including his Exotransformer shield that does a bit of everything and his star cruiser.

The superhero parts of the fight should be kept entirely under wraps in the previews, of course. With the first half of the presentations talking about the ducks as per normal... and then they add the superhero stuff in the full episode showing that it's not actually Donald vs. Daffy, but The Duck Avenger vs. Duck Dodgers!

That and I kind of want to see them try to explain PKNA to an audience that doesn't know the crazy European Donald Duck comics. "And then Donald Duck got into his giant mech and wrestled the giant alien."

They kinda did that with Smokey and Scruff Mcgruff I think. I didn't watch that one, but I remember people here talking about it.

[khadgar567]

Donald vs. Daffy, battle of the ducks!

Of course, said fight would escalate hilariously when Daffy puts on his Green Lantern ring and Donald pulls out his superhero arsenal from the Paperinik/Duck Avenger series including his Exotransformer shield that does a bit of everything and his star cruiser.

The superhero parts of the fight should be kept entirely under wraps in the previews, of course. With the first half of the presentations talking about the ducks as per normal... and then they add the superhero stuff in the full episode showing that it's not actually Donald vs. Daffy, but The Duck Avenger vs. Duck Dodgers!

That and I kind of want to see them try to explain PKNA to an audience that doesn't know the crazy European Donald Duck comics. "And then Donald Duck got into his giant mech and wrestled the giant alien."

best match ever this made me laugh good.
before forgetting Donald acts as mage thanks to kingdom heats so may the zaniest duck wins.

[Mikemical]

Man, am I hyped for Sephiroth VS Vergil this 20th. It'll be fun watching the two dark angels of the PS2-era go at it, though I expect Sephiroth will win, because in comparison, Vergil isn't nearly as strong as Dante was for his fight against Bayonetta. DMC4 Dante already surpassed Sparda's power, and Vergil was defeated before Dante even awakened the Force Edge in DMC1. Even if he retained his Nelo Angelo powers, he is still weaker than Dante.

I'm just glad they're not using the DmC Devil May Cry version.

[Lemmy]

I don't see Superman/Goku and WW/Thor as examples of clear bias, I don't even disagree with the outcomes.

Notice that "clearly the result of bias" doesn't necessarily mean the outcome is wrong. I honestly can't say for sure who would win between Thor x WW or Yang x Tifa... But in both cases, it didn't matter. They wanted to hop on the WW's bandwagon, so WW won. And Yang x Tifa came out after they became partners with Rooster Teeth... And the video had music and the official VA from RWBY. Guess who is winning that one, no matter what the numbers say?

Superman v Goku they worked with a lot of collaborators. If there was a plan to besmirch Goku it would be a far ranging conspiracy. The Superman v Goku battles have also been talked to death. If ever they were to admit, or someone was going to slip, that they were ignoring evidence that Goku should win this would be it.

They are hardly the only ones to think that Superman would beat Goku. Here's yet another analysis.

I'd have liked to see some analysis in the second match to tell me better where Goku is nowadays in terms of strength and endurance simply because DB usually uses a one on one comparative feat analysis (something one did vs the other) to justify the victory as well. They said a lot about the absurd stuff Superman did (hold a blackhole in his hand, tank Supernovas and a Red Sun, etc), but not what sort of things Goku had gotten hit by.

Goku could make/survive planet-busting attacks by the time he fought Vegeta... And had enough power to shake/destroy the whole universe in Super. He survived the Destruction power of a God of Destruction as well, something that pretty much erases anything from existence.

However, in the end the strongest argument I think was the one Durkoala (and DB) makes about Superman's stories suggesting he is limitless and Goku's story always being about Goku overcoming the next limit.

Superman has no limits... Compared to (almost) everyone else. He very obviously has limits, though. See how he doesn't one-shot every enemy in every battle. Nor does any other kryptonian, even evil/merciless ones, like Zod. I'd Superman (and Goku) has infinity potential. As in: he could theoretically absorb infinity amounts of solar radiation, but that's a looooooooooong shot from having infinity strength/speed/whatever.

And those feats of strength they pulled for him? They forgot to mention Supes had help in most of them! Then they just went with "Na-hah! He has infinity power!" BS, which contradicts pretty much every incarnation of Superman.

I could see an argument for Superman beating Goku... But DB didn't make a good one.

[Lord Raziere]

Goku could make/survive planet-busting attacks by the time he fought Vegeta... And had enough power to shake/destroy the whole universe in Super. He survived the Destruction power of a God of Destruction as well, something that pretty much erases anything from existence.

and now Goku has Ultra Instinct which allows him to matrix dodge everything without effort and is going to fight a Superman expy named Jiren. so yeah. thats happening.

[Frozen_Feet]

The answer to the question of who would win between Superman and Goku keeps changing as new interpretations of the characters keep being made.

Goku at the end of his original series has different abilities than Goku at the end of GT, or Goku at the end of Battle of Gods, or Goku during Super.

Superman from the "Golden Age" of comics has different abilities from "Silver Age", or the current age, or the movies.

So on and so forth.

A series such as Death Battle would do better if it focused on specific versions of characters, or characters from self-contained, finished works.

[Future Sword]

I'll call the next one now. Sephiroth wins due to some crazy nonsense I've never heard about. Vergil loses due to a minor personality flaw from a side story that gets treated as a crippling, lifelong struggle.

[Forum Explorer]

I'll call the next one now. Sephiroth wins due to some crazy nonsense I've never heard about. Vergil loses due to a minor personality flaw from a side story that gets treated as a crippling, lifelong struggle.

Well I think the best Vergil can manage is a draw. Because Sephiroth has infinite respawns or something like that. It's not instant, but he's basically infected his planet, and can keep being reborn.

[HolyDraconus]

Doesn't Yugi admit to cheating at the end of season 4?

[Reddish Mage]

Nanoha Takamachi vs Lina Inverse. Battle of the explosion mages!

Discord vs Bill Cypher

Sans vs not!Bill Cypher (seriously, where did this match up come from and why do I see it all over the place?)

Chara vs Kefka

Harry Dresden vs Harry Potter.

Lina is rather limited on the defense...on the other hand if she has the Gigaslave nothing can stand against it (well maybe Superman, no one told me if he can shake off magic attacks when he's serious ).

Gigaslave is never shown being used with Gourry's sword of light, however, which Lina usually doesn't have. Also it needs to be charged up.

Does Nanoha have anything to suggest she's even in Lina's league on the offensive side?

Discord vs. Bill Cypher is actually interesting, but Bill has some severe weaknesses and can be bound by deals.

Undertale Chara? Does she even have stats? She's a fourth-wall breaking apparently omnipotent entity that doesn't get in and mix it up. This sounds like a mismatch,

Harry vs. Harry

Out of all of them, is the one I most want to see.

Well I think the best Vergil can manage is a draw. Because Sephiroth has infinite respawns or something like that. It's not instant, but he's basically infected his planet, and can keep being reborn.

Eh, if it takes Sephiroth years to re-spawn I'd say its close enough for a kill. Unless Vergil can get right into the lifestream and severe Sephiroth from the planet.

I'm not sure if Sephiroth gets this one. Largely I haven't seen enough movies to see what Sephiroth best attacks get. DB has taken the policy of basically ignoring damage numbers as pretty much numbers on the screen, as well as ignoring the implications of flavor text on the physical capabilities of Sephiroth's abilities. Sephiroth is limited to what he has actually been shown physically blowing up. Maybe they will accept that the hp to 1 actually can bring someone within a hit of dying.

Also Vergil's wiki entry says since becoming the King of Hell it is implied he surpassed Dante's power level.

Notice that "clearly the result of bias" doesn't necessarily mean the outcome is wrong. I honestly can't say for sure who would win between Thor x WW or Yang x Tifa... But in both cases, it didn't matter. They wanted to hop on the WW's bandwagon, so WW won. And Yang x Tifa came out after they became partners with Rooster Teeth... And the video had music and the official VA from RWBY. Guess who is winning that one, no matter what the numbers say?

Re: WW v. Thor

Here you're just hurling an accusation with no rhyme or reason. Hoping on Wonder Woman bandwagon is the opposite of trolling popular characters for views. Which is their strategy?

Re: Yang v. Tifa

Yang's winning may be seen as giving a boost to Rooster Teeth. They have an vested interest in the stake since Yang is owned by a partner website, all good evidence of bias.

Now my question plays to going beyond that to dishonest intent. My question is how they cheated with the physics of calculating Tifa's limit break as being under Yang's punishment capability.

Superman has no limits... Compared to (almost) everyone else. He very obviously has limits, though. See how he doesn't one-shot every enemy in every battle. Nor does any other kryptonian, even evil/merciless ones, like Zod. I'd Superman (and Goku) has infinity potential. As in: he could theoretically absorb infinity amounts of solar radiation, but that's a looooooooooong shot from having infinity strength/speed/whatever.

And those feats of strength they pulled for him? They forgot to mention Supes had help in most of them! Then they just went with "Na-hah! He has infinity power!" BS, which contradicts pretty much every incarnation of Superman.

I could see an argument for Superman beating Goku... But DB didn't make a good one.

There's a few things that went on in the rematch.

First there's the suggestion that Superman does such things like holding a blackhole in his hand, or tanking 40 supernovas in hand, and these are things beyond anything Goku has done. That may be debatable. Note however, theres' a whole list of these suggestions regarding Superman's abilities, including traveling millions of times faster than the speed of light. All of this to suggest that he is just on another level all together from even Goku in SSGSS mode.

The lack of one-shotting doesn't mean much. Superman is deliberately holding back most of the time according to comicbook cannon. He is also more powerful than the other Kryptonians.

Now there are times Superman struggles against opponents, but then there are other times the comics suggests his limits are self-imposed. A Deathbattle fight is said to occur at the two at their "maximum potential."

Superman was said to have help doing the heavy lifting. However, he was lifting infinity in those cases, and the math is, and I quote, "1/2 of infinity is infinity." They also suggested (only half jokingly) that Shazam and Wonder Woman took a finite amount and Superman did all the rest.

They purposely state the assumption is that they are taking the two fighting at their greatest potential. The comic pages that suggest Superman has infinite strength are there. If Superman truly has no limit to his power at times, he will win.

Separately from measuring the stats of the two, there is a story element to Superman that suggests he will win. His stories tend to be about his own self-imposed limits and morality. Superman doesn't (usually) train and strive and work to push through to the next level to take on a stronger opponent. Superman is the stronger opponent. He just needs to figure out a way to use that strength in a moral way.

You can argue whether the comic stories and pages that suggest that Superman has "no limit" really mean what they imply, but at a story level Superman stories tend to suggest Superman is the greatest being.

Goku's stories are clearly different. Goku is usually looking out for, training for, or facing off against the next greater opponent.

The story element isn't one Death Battle pulls out often. Its a lot more meta than measuring Superman's strength vs Goku's at any one point. However, it is a significant and legitimate way of analyzing these versus matches. If Superman's narrative is that he is the strongest being, and Goku's is that he always needs to strive to become stronger, then Goku can never surpass Superman without losing an essential part of what it means to be Goku.

and now Goku has Ultra Instinct which allows him to matrix dodge everything without effort and is going to fight a Superman expy named Jiren. so yeah. thats happening.

So think Dragonball is going to weigh in on the argument?

I don't really believe Jiren is truly a Superman stand in.

Doesn't Yugi admit to cheating at the end of season 4?

There has to be cheating if a non-combat match is going to end properly. After all, regardless of the game, this has got to be a Death Battle!

[Lord Raziere]

So think Dragonball is going to weigh in on the argument?

I don't really believe Jiren is truly a Superman stand in.

He can fire eye beams, he is stronger than his own Destruction God, he is stoic and believes in justice, he is a literal superhero and he does a lot of no-selling. he has no other gimmick other than being the most powerful flying brick in the tournament of power. all the other Pride Troopers have powers relating to superheroes such as flash, spiderman and invisible woman, so......not out of the question.

[Forum Explorer]

Lina is rather limited on the defense...on the other hand if she has the Gigaslave nothing can stand against it (well maybe Superman, no one told me if he can shake off magic attacks when he's serious ).

Gigaslave is never shown being used with Gourry's sword of light, however, which Lina usually doesn't have. Also it needs to be charged up.

Does Nanoha have anything to suggest she's even in Lina's league on the offensive side?

Discord vs. Bill Cypher is actually interesting, but Bill has some severe weaknesses and can be bound by deals.

Undertale Chara? Does she even have stats? She's a fourth-wall breaking apparently omnipotent entity that doesn't get in and mix it up. This sounds like a mismatch,

Harry vs. Harry

Out of all of them, is the one I most want to see.



Eh, if it takes Sephiroth years to re-spawn I'd say its close enough for a kill. Unless Vergil can get right into the lifestream and severe Sephiroth from the planet.

I'm not sure if Sephiroth gets this one. Largely I haven't seen enough movies to see what Sephiroth best attacks get. DB has taken the policy of basically ignoring damage numbers as pretty much numbers on the screen, as well as ignoring the implications of flavor text on the physical capabilities of Sephiroth's abilities. Sephiroth is limited to what he has actually been shown physically blowing up. Maybe they will accept that the hp to 1 actually can bring someone within a hit of dying.

Also Vergil's wiki entry says since becoming the King of Hell it is implied he surpassed Dante's power level.

Offensively, Nanoha has been seen shooting through a several kilometer long ship that has severe anti-magic properties. She didn't shoot the full distance of the ship, but she was basically on the bridge, and her opponent was hiding somewhere else, and rather then go find said opponent, she just shot her from where she was. Here's the scene. And that's not her strongest attack.

Gigaslave is more damaging, but Nanoha does have the range, and Lina certainly lacks the defenses to take a hit. Nanoha also has some really good defenses, and would be able to block anything short of a Dragonslave, and might even be able to survive that as well. So I think it would be interesting. Also, Lina has Ragna Blade right? Or did that require the Blade of Light as well? It's been so long since I watched that series.


Sure, and Discord has shown it's possible to steal or block his magic as well. So it could be pretty interesting.


Yeah, Chara doesn't really have stats. I was trying to pick two characters who could destroy the universe, but there aren't actually a lot of examples where you see the villain actually destroy the universe. Threaten and attempt to sure, but succeed? Not so much. Kefka was the best opponent that came to mind.


Fair enough. I'm only familiar with Sephiroth's feats in Final Fantasy 7 itself, and honestly, they aren't that impressive. Sure he can summon a giant meteor, but it takes forever to arrive. So I do think Vergil can kill Sephiroth, even if he can't prevent the respawn afterwards.


Regarding Tifa, I say they messed it up really badly by simply not looking at the things that Tifa beats. The giant robot that punched Yang through a pillar is basically a starting boss in Final Fantasy 7. You can also mention stuff like their ability to repeatedly get shot and hit by grenades and simply ignore the damage.

[Prime32]

Lina is rather limited on the defense...on the other hand if she has the Gigaslave nothing can stand against it

Ragna Blade would also give Nanoha's defences trouble. However, Nanoha has much greater speed and mobility than Lina, and has a bunch of tricks like attack drones, homing attacks, quasi-teleportation, bind spells, barrier-breaking spells, and delaying the activation of spells to use them as traps. And if she realises that Ragna Blade is cutting through her barrier, then there's likely enough time for Raising Heart to detonate the outer layer of her Jacket and create some distance. In any case, getting into melee range with Nanoha is a bad idea - Lina is okay with a sword, but Nanoha comes from a family of assassins and has been shown holding her own against magic-enhanced martial artists without much trouble.

Gigaslave is never shown being used with Gourry's sword of light, however, which Lina usually doesn't have. Also it needs to be charged up.

Do you mean "without"? In the anime, she's also used it with the Demon's Blood Talismans at the end of Revolution/Evolution-R. I haven't read the novels, but I'm pretty sure she's at least referenced casting it on her own?

Does Nanoha have anything to suggest she's even in Lina's league on the offensive side?

Does she need it? I doubt Lina can do anything about a Starlight Breaker to the face. I suppose Nanoha could pull in some favours to have a battleship placed in orbit, since their main cannon is the closest thing her series has to the Giga Slave.