Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Lemmy]

I'm sorry, but if you say "this ability destroys planets" and then go on and hit somebody with it, and the planet doesn't get destroyed, you don't get to pretend youre playing by the same rules. When people are regularly throwing around planet destroying force, you have to question if the universe even has any right to exist in the first place.

Why not? none of these settings even pretend to be consistent or scientifically accurate. If planet-busting attack doesn't actually hit the planet... The planet remains unbusted.

Furthermore, you cant simultaneously be pulling your punches AND increasing your power over time to meet the latest threat.

Says who? Like I said, every media with high-powered attacks ignore things like shockwaves and air resistance (except as cool visual effects)... Because otherwise, they simply couldn't make superman, Goku or The Hulk fight seriously without completely destroying the setting.

[Keltest]

Why not? none of these settings even pretend to be consistent or scientifically accurate. If planet-busting attack doesn't actually hit the planet... The planet remains unbusted.

Let me put it to you this way: The amount of force allegedly being thrown around is inconsistent with what is actually being portrayed. People can casually destroy planetary bodies on a whim, even accidentally, but when theyre in an actual fight hitting somebody with that same attack directly does nothing. Dragonball suffers from a pretty bad form of power creep, in that theyre allegedly getting stronger and using more power as time and fights go on, but they aren't doing anything more.

Says who? Like I said, every media with high-powered attacks ignore things like shockwaves and air resistance (except as cool visual effects)... Because otherwise, they simply couldn't make superman, Goku or The Hulk fight seriously without completely destroying the setting.

Um, the meaning of the words? If you aren't using your maximum strength anyway, then increasing that maximum isn't going to make the pulled punch any better.

[Lemmy]

Let me put it to you this way: The amount of force allegedly being thrown around is inconsistent with what is actually being portrayed. People can casually destroy planetary bodies on a whim, even accidentally, but when theyre in an actual fight hitting somebody with that same attack directly does nothing. Dragonball suffers from a pretty bad form of power creep, in that theyre allegedly getting stronger and using more power as time and fights go on, but they aren't doing anything more.

Why does that apply only to DBZ? Superman also doesn't destroy the planet every time he and Zod/Bizarro/Darkseid/Ultraman/Random-Evil-version-of-Superman fight it out. Hell! Even Superboy Prime (who literally broke reality by punching it really, really hard) didn't destroy the whole planet every time he fought someone.

Um, the meaning of the words? If you aren't using your maximum strength anyway, then increasing that maximum isn't going to make the pulled punch any better.

Who says that they are not using their maximum strength? They are just impossibly good at directing/containing its force to its target.

Once again, since you like to ignore it: Writers of all media with super-powered characters constantly ignore things like shock waves and air resistance in their work. Their goal is to make their characters able to go all out without destroying the setting where the story takes place.

[Lord Raziere]

Let me put it to you this way: The amount of force allegedly being thrown around is inconsistent with what is actually being portrayed. People can casually destroy planetary bodies on a whim, even accidentally, but when theyre in an actual fight hitting somebody with that same attack directly does nothing. Dragonball suffers from a pretty bad form of power creep, in that theyre allegedly getting stronger and using more power as time and fights go on, but they aren't doing anything more.




Um, the meaning of the words? If you aren't using your maximum strength anyway, then increasing that maximum isn't going to make the pulled punch any better.

Wrong.

there is two kinds of power: uncompressed power and compressed power.

destructo-disc, is a example of the latter: it can actually punch above its weight class despite using less ki some other attacks, because its a blade, all that power that would usually be spread out and not much because its spread out, is focused and does more because its a smaller more piercing form, much like the Special beam cannon. this is because ki control makes the attack more deadly making sure the same amount of power occupies less space, thus making it MORE POWERFUL while doing LESS collateral damage, much like how a surgeons knife is sharper than a sword while cutting less things.

uncompressed power on the other hand is less efficient, because you need to gather more just to do the same amount of damage, and cause more collateral damage as a result. thats all the big energy balls you see. ki control matters. raw power just means you end up with stupidity like Super saiyan grade 3 and being too slow and bulky to hit your opponent or giant forms and being too big to fight well, a kamehameha that doesn't focus into a beam at all, without ki control that beam would just fly off into a diffuse cone that wouldn't do nearly as much damage and so on. its why ki barrages don't really work, its just diffusely throw ki around without much focused punch behind it.

so often we see examples of this raw power people think DBZ runs on but really doesn't, because every time that power is easily defeated by people with more control and expertise USING that power, and people keep ignoring it, its really freaking annoying.

[Keltest]

Why does that apply only to DBZ? Superman also doesn't destroy the planet every time he and Zod/Bizarro/Darkseid/Ultraman/Random-Evil-version-of-Superman fight out. Hell! Even Superboy Prime (who literally broke reality by punching it really, really hard) didn't destroy the whole planet every time he fought someone.

Because they aren't using explicitly planet destroying levels of force. They also don't regularly run into the problem of not having enough power.

Who says that they are not using their maximum strength? They are just impossibly good at directing/containing is force to its target.

Well then they shouldn't hype up their abilities as impossibly strong uber destructive weapons.

Once again, since you like to ignore it: Writers of all media with super-powered characters constantly ignore things like shock waves and air resistance in their work. Their goal is to make their characters able to go all out without destroying the setting where the story takes place.

I'm not ignoring it (or rather, I am because they don't exist in either universe) but even without that, you have people being bludgeoned into the ground with super mega death attacks at allegedly full force, and they mostly just make a little hole in the ground they crawl out of, or just smash through some boulders. We have a lot of alleged force that just amounts to not at all what should be happening when its thrown around, even only to things directly impacted by it.

[Rater202]

Keltest... The people who have Planet Destroying level of power can use that same power to make their bodies strong enough to resist that same level of power.

Key does everything--If you can throw a planet breaking punch, the same power lets you block a planet breaking punch.

Which is why people in DB can throw around attacks capable of destroying planets, hit people, and not kill them.

[Lemmy]

Because they aren't using explicitly planet destroying levels of force. They also don't regularly run into the problem of not having enough power.

Oh, really? Then how do they expect to beat the guy who supposedly has INFINITY POWER? And why do they hold back even when they have no reason to do it, moral or practical? There're plenty of scenes where Superman HAS to be moving at speeds that would destroy everything around, but nothing happens.

Well then they shouldn't hype up their abilities as impossibly strong uber destructive weapons.

Why? Do attacks stop being super destructive just because they aren't being used to destroy? If a punch can break a planet, it can break a planet... Even if it's not directed at it.

I'm not ignoring it (or rather, I am because they don't exist in either universe) but even without that, you have people being bludgeoned into the ground with super mega death attacks at allegedly full force, and they mostly just make a little hole in the ground they crawl out of, or just smash through some boulders. We have a lot of alleged force that just amounts to not at all what should be happening when its thrown around, even only to things directly impacted by it.

Well... It's almost like the writers don't know/care/remember what would be the physicals consequences of those actions and events. It's almost like they do it in order to tell a cool story without having their setting destroyed... Huh... This argument sounds familiar... Maybe someone made it at some point in this thread.

[Keltest]

Keltest... The people who have Planet Destroying level of power can use that same power to make their bodies strong enough to resist that same level of power.

Key does everything--If you can throw a planet breaking punch, the same power lets you block a planet breaking punch.

Which is why people in DB can throw around attacks capable of destroying planets, hit people, and not kill them.

I'm aware, but since people still go flying from those hits at least sometimes, the force isn't just going away, except when it does.

And even if we allow that somebody has a point and click delete button and somebody else has an anti-delete-button-shield... What does that even mean at that point? Theyre just names at that point.

Oh, really? Then how do they expect to beat the guy who supposedly has INFINITY POWER? And why do they hold back even when they have no reason to do it, moral or practical? There're plenty of scenes where Superman HAS to be moving at speeds that would destroy everything around, but nothing happens.

Why? Do attacks stop being super destructive just because they aren't being used to destroy? If a punch can break a planet, it can break a planet... Even if it's not directed at it.


Well... It's almost like the writers don't know/care/remember what would be the physicals consequences of those actions and events. It's almost like they do it in order to tell a cool story without having their setting destroyed... Huh... This argument sounds familiar... Maybe someone made it at some point in this thread.

If youre trying to argue that Dragonball as a setting isn't kind of ridiculous and comparing it directly to other settings is an exercise in futility, youre doing a poor job of it.

Of course the writers don't know/care/remember. That's the point. The rules are guidelines. Goku's strength is meaningless if we never see it in something approaching the reality used by other medias.

[Lord Raziere]

And even if we allow that somebody has a point and click delete button and somebody else has an anti-delete-button-shield... What does that even mean at that point? Theyre just names at that point.

It means we have a good fight, instead rocket tag. and that anyone without those are in danger. otherwise they wouldn't be worth watching.

its not as if these things last forever. both the attack and the shields needs energy, how good your shield is,how much energy you have left, whether the opponent is good enough to evade the attack entirely to come up with a better counter for it next time, all of this is about expenditure of energy, using your resources smartly and what you do pull out a win from the energy you have left when some other gambit did not work, how much your risking by going into a super form that drains your energy faster or the kaio-ken which breaks your body when done, how long you can keep dodging and so on. every fight is like a card game, your energy is the amount of cards you draw before your done, and must be careful to play whats in your hand.

[Lemmy]

If youre trying to argue that Dragonball as a setting isn't kind of ridiculous and comparing it directly to other settings is an exercise in futility, you're doing a poor job of it.

Huh... When did I say it wasn't ridiculous? I simply said it's not the only one that is ridiculous. The problem is when something isn't consistent even with its own rules. And I'm being quite forgiving when I say "consistent with its own rules"... I've seen the same version of superman move FTL on Earth and also fail to deflect a hail of bullets.

Of course the writers don't know/care/remember. That's the point. The rules are guidelines. Goku's strength is meaningless if we never see it in something approaching the reality used by other medias.

And why does that only apply to Goku? The exact same argument can be made about Superman, Hulk or any other super-powered character. I remember when Jimmy Olsen sends a signal using his watch to call Superman... And Superman takes a few seconds because he's in Vega (a star that is over 20 light-years from Earth)... Now... Even assuming that Superman can move that fast... How the hell did Jimmy's signal get there so quickly?

Maybe DC's universe is just really small and soft, so all of Superman's feats are much smaller than they appear.

[Mato]

Speaking of inconsistent characterization. That Wonder Woman you lovingly link to was a mere clay statue brought to life by Zues. The current WW is half deity daughter of Zeus herself, and she kills full gods.

No.

Wonder Women was a half-god in the New 52 line which as everyone can recall, even if they have never picked up a DC comic, it failed so badly they reconned the entire thing out of existence over two years ago. In Rebirth, all of 52's stuff like being queen and having the powers of the God of War is just an illusion she believed. She is still crafted from clay but now, more in line with her Silver Age counterpart, obtains her powers as blessings from each of the gods after being captured when she left Themyscira.

Why does that apply only to DBZ?

Because Dragonball calls it out?

The reason Goku & Beerus almost destroyed the universe was because Goku wasn't matching Beeru's punches correctly. What's being called out here isn't that they are capable of destroying something large, but that opposing energy waves and ki-empowered bodies cancel each other out. And that also changes how something would be displayed, such as a punch that can destroy a planet, when correctly blocked.

[Lemmy]

Because Dragonball calls it out?

The reason Goku & Beerus almost destroyed the universe was because Goku wasn't matching Beeru's punches correctly. What's being called out here isn't that they are capable of destroying something large, but that opposing energy waves and ki-empowered bodies cancel each other out. And that also changes how something would be displayed, such as a punch that can destroy a planet, when correctly blocked.

So it's okay for a character to clearly do world-breaking stuff if they don't directly acknowledge it? Nah. I don't bite it.

[Prime32]

Slayers has some weird mechanics in particular.

• Humans live in the physical world and their souls are a shadow they cast into the Astral Plane. Demons are the opposite, being huge astral beings that project a smaller physical avatar. You can hurt/KO something by attacking its shadow, but it's less efficient than attacking the main body.
• Earth/Air/Fire/Water Shamanism spells work in the physical world, pretty much as you'd expect them to.
• Spirit Shamanism spells deal spiritual damage in the Astral Plane.
• Black Magic spells deal damage in the Astral Plane first, then any excess energy bleeds over into the physical world. Thus a Dragon Slave aimed at a rock will create a giant explosion, while one aimed at a demon lord won't even scorch the ground. Also demons are immune to Black Magic spells that invoke their own power or those of their spawn, unless they choose to be affected by them.
• Chaos Magic (Ragna Blade and Giga Slave) hits both planes at once.

[Flying Turtle]

So it's okay for a character to clearly do world-breaking stuff if they don't directly acknowledge it? Nah. I don't bite it.

Suspension of disbelief is a finite resource and having your dialogue constantly point out how ridiculous everything is doesn't help with that. I'm not saying you are wrong for suspending disbelief. We all have our different tastes. I'm just saying that the distinction being drawn here between DC and Dragon Ball is subjective but not arbitrary.

And if I may steer this back to Death Battle. Man oh man would I like to see the Cosmere show up. Boomstick mentioned reading Way of Kings in one episode so fingers crossed.

[chainer1216]

For the Sephiroth V Vergil fight i oredict the Virgil wins, Yamato is pretty crazy.

But i have a feeling that the short sum up of the fight will be something like "in the end it just came down to, when you stab Vergil in the chest he'll just be smug about it, when you stab Sephiroth in the chest, he dies."

[Reddish Mage]

I'm sorry, but if you say "this ability destroys planets" and then go on and hit somebody with it, and the planet doesn't get destroyed, you don't get to pretend youre playing by the same rules. When people are regularly throwing around planet destroying force, you have to question if the universe even has any right to exist in the first place.

Furthermore, you cant simultaneously be pulling your punches AND increasing your power over time to meet the latest threat.

This here is a major problem with superhero sized punches in general. DBZ just brings it to ridiculous extremes by stating that the character’s can destroy the world...or even the universe, but we rarely see there attacks result in those sorts of consequences.

By the way, I’m not sure an attack that destroys or shakes the entire universe can even be made to make sense according to physics.

Its not made of styrofoam! DC is just as high powered if not more, so there is just as much justification for it being made of styrofoam to! meaning any high-powered unvierse could just be as weak as another universe because of absurd fragility!

So. yeah, keep casting doubt DBZ for having ENTIRE CASTS OF PEOPLE being responsible as FREAKING SUPERMAN in how they fight. keep doing that, see where it gets you.

I don’t know if you can say the universe is made of glass, but unless real physics can make sense of a universe-destroying attack. DBZ universes are in fact fragile.

Rather than thinking of the universe as fragile, it might be better to question whether the attacks being executed truly back up what is being said. From what you say about every one being as responsible for Superman, none of these attacks are being executed to full effect.

Are the DBZ cast really that responsible though? That includes fairly careless villains like Kid Buu. Goku himself will let a villain charge up just to fight him at full strength. As pointed out explicitly, this is not a safe or effective strategy if your goal is defense of the planet. Goku, in this way at least, seems to care more about getting a good fight than in the safety of the entire world.

Basically DBZ fighters clearly aren’t as responsible as Superman, but nevertheless they don’t destroy the world with their attacks.

Slayers has some weird mechanics in particular.

This is the weird thing about the cartoon physics that various fictional worlds operate on. Its not just that they operate on cartoon physics, they all operate on different ones!

This makes direct comparison problematic and does open up the question someone sarcastically asked about whether one should level the playing field when importing and exporting characters from those fictional worlds into the world the Death Battle is being conducts.

Also, the Death Battle world, by its nature, is actually in neither universe, its some sort of creative gestalt that takes a little from both world’s the fighters are from (to sustain both their powers), and some additional properties from the real world given the importance of physics calculations they often use in their analysis.

I'm aware, but since people still go flying from those hits at least sometimes, the force isn't just going away, except when it does.

And even if we allow that somebody has a point and click delete button and somebody else has an anti-delete-button-shield... What does that even mean at that point? Theyre just names at that point.

Of course the writers don't know/care/remember. That's the point. The rules are guidelines. Goku's strength is meaningless if we never see it in something approaching the reality used by other medias.

First off I agree entirely with this analysis, up until you say Gou’s strength is meaningless. I would replace it by Goku’s strength is problematic, but only to the extent he does feats like shake the universe which don’t translate well with physics. Does that mean Goku is strong enough to lift a planet? A star? How much control does Goku have? Can Goku destroy an entire galaxy with a Ki Ball?

Do the fighters turn that sort of power on each other? If so, why doesn’t a miss ever take out star systems and so on.

Ultimately we want to get to whether Goku can kill other characters that only appear in other media and which ones, destroying the world is something that can be measured...but if Goku never actually does it that becomes a question of whether to measure what a world destroying ki-ball would take, or to only measure the attacks that Goku actually does.

Universe destruction becomes a question of what the even means, as does parallel questions like what it means when Alt-Superman punches reality and tears holes in it.

If Screw Attack decides not to analyze a power like that, maybe it makes sense to them.

If youre trying to argue that Dragonball as a setting isn't kind of ridiculous and comparing it directly to other settings is an exercise in futility, youre doing a poor job of it.

DBZ probably contains the most hyperbolically extreme statements in regards to their fighter’s capabilities. The question someone posed is what to do with that degree of absurdity.

Do DBZ fighters automatically win every Death Battle because of their boasts rather than the actual attacks we have seen? Or do we throw out the boasting a limit the fighters to what is seen with the actual attacks?

Moreover what to do when attacks do things that don’t translate into strength/power/energy, like shaking or destroying a universe or ripping a hole in reality? Does these things imply a certain strength level or not? Does it matter if the fighter really can just throw a punch and the entire world or universe is destroyed with the opponent in it (and does that count as a KO or a tie)?

I think either approaches are legitimate depending on how one reads the comic and the weight of the supporting evidence in the comics that they are really playing for keeps with the absurd world-destroying powers being given out like candy on Christmas.

[Lord Raziere]

I don’t know if you can say the universe is made of glass, but unless real physics can make sense of a universe-destroying attack. DBZ universes are in fact fragile.

Rather than thinking of the universe as fragile, it might be better to question whether the attacks being executed truly back up what is being said. From what you say about every one being as responsible for Superman, none of these attacks are being executed to full effect.

Are the DBZ cast really that responsible though? That includes fairly careless villains like Kid Buu. Goku himself will let a villain charge up just to fight him at full strength. As pointed out explicitly, this is not a safe or effective strategy if your goal is defense of the planet. Goku, in this way at least, seems to care more about getting a good fight than in the safety of the entire world.

Basically DBZ fighters clearly aren’t as responsible as Superman, but nevertheless they don’t destroy the world with their attacks.

Except when y'know. They do get executed to full effect. Like when Freeza blew up Planet Namek. Or Planet Vegeta. or Earth before it was rewound, or Kid Buu before it was restored. or when Roshi blew up the moon, or when Piccolo blew up the moon, or when Goku cut the Kai planet's moon in half with a kamehameha. Or Cell blew himself up along with North Kai's planet. pretty consistently shown that they CAN blow up planets. as well as it being pretty consistently shown that some of them are more powerful than when they started.

At this point I'm just baffled as to why only visual confirmation matters. its a story, information is just as important as the visual stuff, especially when the author has no opportunity to show anyone that information when showing it could put the plot off track from the story they are currently telling, which is whats most important. and everyone seems consistently worried that guys like Cell and Buu and Freeza will keep going and destroying more planets and destroying the entire unvierse if they aren't stopped. like what, do you WANT them to step aside and let them do that just to prove that they CAN?

like, do we doubt that a supervillains plan can succeed just because we're never shown it doing so because the superhero foiled it before it can get off the ground? if a supervillain charges up a death ray to destroy something and then a superhero destroys that death ray at the last moment thus saving the day, and we're informed that the death ray would've definitely destroyed that thing, that seems pretty reasonable to expect from the story, otherwise it would take much darker turn and involve a much powerful reset button than usual to get back to status quo. so really, how much the villains can destroy is limited by how powerful the Dragon Balls are, which for a long time seemed to have a "bring back entire planet" upper limit to it, so the villain could only destroy a planet before being a defeated so that the reset button could be pushed and make sure they come back for the next story to work without a hitch.

now that there are Super Dragon Balls that can bring back ANYTHING.....well suddenly the possibilities of what can get destroyed and brought back is much bigger.

[Forum Explorer]

Neo struck Yang exactly once during that fight, and was otherwise on the defensive. They explained in the commentary that "Yang lost all her hit points in that one attack." Also Yang exhuasted herself beforehand with heavy attacks that just couldn't land.

All the Neo fight proves is that Neo can strike harder than the Paladin, and can dodge Yang.

I think the flashy graphics for Tifa and the rest mean something. If you watched FF battles it looks like one of these fighters can tank and deal absurd amounts of punishment, and yes Tifa can lift whatever opponent (I still don't know if that makes her attacks more powerful than a bodyslam that takes out a support girder). However, Advent Children Tifa did not go near that level in terms of destruction.

Basically, most of the time Yang doesn't look like she's fighting on the scale that FF characters look like they are doing in the Battle screens, but Screw Attack has never treated what can happen on those screens with the degree of seriousness I would have done.

So I agree with you Tifa should probably win this one. But I'm not convinced that they don't have a good faith argument that Yang could win and I agree their approach of taking Yang's max endurance, and comparing to Tifa's max "unaided" striking power.

Although I wouldn't have gimped Tifa, I think they are upfront they are not giving her the best equipment and materia should could have used for the fight, and this is consistent with how they treated Cloud.

You're wrong about that one hit thing. Let me count them, best I can. I count at least 10 hits, not counting the ones that Yang managed to block. Also, Yang's attacks using energy should've been a factor in the fight. But most importantly, Yang being thrown into the roof didn't even dent it. If that had more force then the one that sent her through the pillar, then we should've seen an environmental effect.

There is quite the gap between the Tifa they used and the one in Advent Children. Though there are several justifiable reasons for that. One, she was unarmed and unarmored. Two she potentially hadn't been fighting for years(?), not seriously anyways. Raising orphans isn't really monster hunting. But even so, in that fight, Tifa actually gets hit through a stone pillar, and survives. She isn't even knocked out by it, though it does lose her the fight.

In fact you can use that fight as a perfect example of why Tifa should win. Loz's missed blows are cratering the stone walls, but he only actually manages to land something like 5 blows, and Tifa recovers from 2 of them. Well, until Loz flash steps close so Tifa can't dodge or block. This even plays into Yang's fight against Neo. Neo doesn't show any particular strength or speed in that fight, she's just deflects or dodges everything Yang throws at her. Tifa is a martial artist and we do see her doing the same thing against Loz.

Also, you can get sorta hard numbers on Yang's ability to take damage. A series of small blows from Neon, plus one big blow knocking her into a pillar, was about 33% of Yang's aura. (You can see it at 8:09 in S3 E5. The fight starts about 6:00 minutes in.)

As for bad faith, well my evidence (besides the RT being their partner right before the fight), is in how they did most of everything. They claim Tifa is a glass cannon for instance, without actually looking at any feats of toughness. They argue that her strength only applies to her limit break, and then they ignore that, even if that's true, it would still suffice to break Yang's Aura. They never even bother to calculate how much potential force that Tifa could unleash during her limit break. (For the record, I calculated it at above 1497 Tons of Force, and I did that by taking a blue whale's weight (something that's clearly smaller and thus lighter then a Weapon, but is at least comparable) and how much force it would take to jump with it. I didn't even bother with the counter acting force of gravity to be overcome, or the force of the throw itself.) They also gloss over Yang's defeat, and talk up her achievements. While Tifa's achievements aren't really mentioned at all. Like for example, smashing through crystal pillars on dissidia stages like they were nothing.

Then there's the fight itself. They've got things like Tifa getting absolutely whaled on by Yang, for no real reason. Tifa's magic being slow, deflectable projectiles, instead of nigh instant manifestations, even the music was in Yang's favor. We get generic club music, which switches to Yang's theme song before Tifa even uses her Limit Break.

So yeah, I suspect them of having a bias towards Yang winning due to the presentation, the data selected, and their attitude. It's not the first time I've thought them to be bias'd (Peach vs Zelda comes to mind), but it is the first time that I've suspected the bias' root was based in a business decision. Mostly due to the timing of the episode, and who animated the fight itself.

Three main points in Negi's favour:

• In Raiten Taisou form, Negi can discorporate parts of his body into lightning, which seems effective against at least some of Nanoha's bindings. It also lets him create clones of himself, which make single-target magic less reliable.
• Magia Erebea is likely capable of absorbing Ragna Blade/Giga Slave, and even equipping them. This might result in Negi getting possessed by the Lord of Nightmares, but that still counts as a win.
• ACHOO!

We don't even know if he's resilient, since no one's tried to attack him, just that he's been alive for a long time. IIRC he has trouble following what some of the stronger fighters are doing (which in DB is linked to power level), so for all we know Hit could take him out.

They only need to keep Negi still for a few seconds. Lina can effectively precast Ragna Blade and then wait for the bind to land.

Why do you think it is capable of absorbing that energy?

That would be hilarious against Lina, but Nanoha can actually regenerate her clothes.

So Sans can take out Superman then?

I know you're being factitious, but you know he just might be able to. Sans can teleport either himself or Superman in order to dodge blows. All of Superman's strength and durability don't matter because Sans can only take one hit no matter what, and always does one damage regardless of defenses. San's attacks are magic anyways, so they'll effect Superman normally. The biggest question is if San's attacks would have the 'bleed' effect or not.

Other big questions is how would the mechanics work in the fight. Sans brutally exploits the fight mechanics in his own universe. Those aren't entirely a Gamplay-Fluff segregation. Sans mentions turns being a thing, and Asgore actually attacks your ability to give Mercy. So would fighting Sans force Superman into fighting by Undertale rules? Or would Sans have to fight by Superman rules?

Slayers has some weird mechanics in particular.

• Humans live in the physical world and their souls are a shadow they cast into the Astral Plane. Demons are the opposite, being huge astral beings that project a smaller physical avatar. You can hurt/KO something by attacking its shadow, but it's less efficient than attacking the main body.
• Earth/Air/Fire/Water Shamanism spells work in the physical world, pretty much as you'd expect them to.
• Spirit Shamanism spells deal spiritual damage in the Astral Plane.
• Black Magic spells deal damage in the Astral Plane first, then any excess energy bleeds over into the physical world. Thus a Dragon Slave aimed at a rock will create a giant explosion, while one aimed at a demon lord won't even scorch the ground. Also demons are immune to Black Magic spells that invoke their own power or those of their spawn, unless they choose to be affected by them.
• Chaos Magic (Ragna Blade and Giga Slave) hits both planes at once.

See, the last point is why I don't think Negi could absorb Ragna blade.

[Lord Raziere]

I know you're being factitious, but you know he just might be able to. Sans can teleport either himself or Superman in order to dodge blows. All of Superman's strength and durability don't matter because Sans can only take one hit no matter what, and always does one damage regardless of defenses. San's attacks are magic anyways, so they'll effect Superman normally. The biggest question is if San's attacks would have the 'bleed' effect or not.

Other big questions is how would the mechanics work in the fight. Sans brutally exploits the fight mechanics in his own universe. Those aren't entirely a Gamplay-Fluff segregation. Sans mentions turns being a thing, and Asgore actually attacks your ability to give Mercy. So would fighting Sans force Superman into fighting by Undertale rules? Or would Sans have to fight by Superman rules?.

I wasn't being facetious, I'm just changing to whatever character I both like and can win so that I can make his discussion more fun for myself by following through the logic. Sans can even use his blue magic to get rid of Superman's flight advantage.

while KR- the bleed effect- stands for Karmic Retribution, so that all depends on how many people Superman has killed, since Undertale mechanics don't really care about the reasons why you killed somebody, as long you do. the fallen child kills a total of 107 monsters by the time they fight Sans, so if Superman has killed a similar or greater amount of people, he would also experience the bleed effect to the same degree. of course its not clear how much KR affects you if you kill less people than that, but one assumes it would have some effect on people who have stained their hands.

given that people like Freeza has certainly killed a LOT more people than that, we can at least be certain that Sans would give Freeza a really bad time, and Freeza's powers are basically the same.

as for the mechanics thing.....*shrug* there is no clear answer either way. monsters seem to regard a fight as just a normal thing that happens, and Flowey and Toriel introduces you to the Underground with it as if you've never been in one before. So MAYBE the monsters somehow have this weird magic that just automatically pulls you into a fight wherever they are, but it might just be the weirdness of the Underground itself? Who knows. But then again, their magic does seem to revolve around the Fights in a way, but the other hand Undyne threw spears at you constantly without technically entering one in her pursuit. Do Fights require both combatants to not run?

[Mikemical]

For the Sephiroth V Vergil fight i predict the Virgil wins, Yamato is pretty crazy.

But i have a feeling that the short sum up of the fight will be something like "in the end it just came down to, when you stab Vergil in the chest he'll just be smug about it, when you stab Sephiroth in the chest, he dies."

The Vergil preview felt pretty lackluster for me. They barely covered anything regarding Vergil's accomplisments or weapons beyond "Yamato can cut through ANY thing", though I expect the full episode will cover more for the both of them. I still think Vergil will lose, but then again, I thought Dante would lose vs Bayonetta given the word of Based God Kamiya.

[chainer1216]

The Vergil ...given the word of Based God Kamiya.

he may have made both characters but he owns and still publishes games with one and not the other, he's more than a little biased on the subject, and besides the vast majority of the DMC series happened without him, the Dante he envisioned is not the Dante of 2, 3, and 4.

[Forum Explorer]

I wasn't being facetious, I'm just changing to whatever character I both like and can win so that I can make his discussion more fun for myself by following through the logic. Sans can even use his blue magic to get rid of Superman's flight advantage.

while KR- the bleed effect- stands for Karmic Retribution, so that all depends on how many people Superman has killed, since Undertale mechanics don't really care about the reasons why you killed somebody, as long you do. the fallen child kills a total of 107 monsters by the time they fight Sans, so if Superman has killed a similar or greater amount of people, he would also experience the bleed effect to the same degree. of course its not clear how much KR affects you if you kill less people than that, but one assumes it would have some effect on people who have stained their hands.

given that people like Freeza has certainly killed a LOT more people than that, we can at least be certain that Sans would give Freeza a really bad time, and Freeza's powers are basically the same.

as for the mechanics thing.....*shrug* there is no clear answer either way. monsters seem to regard a fight as just a normal thing that happens, and Flowey and Toriel introduces you to the Underground with it as if you've never been in one before. So MAYBE the monsters somehow have this weird magic that just automatically pulls you into a fight wherever they are, but it might just be the weirdness of the Underground itself? Who knows. But then again, their magic does seem to revolve around the Fights in a way, but the other hand Undyne threw spears at you constantly without technically entering one in her pursuit. Do Fights require both combatants to not run?

My apologies for assuming then.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure Superman has a body count, but I don't think it's very high. Depends on which Superman though.


The spears that hit you didn't do damage though, they'd drag you into a fight where you get bombarded by a bunch of almost impossible to dodge spears for a second or two. So I think it is something that monsters can activate, or that's my reasoning for it anyways.

[Mikemical]

he may have made both characters but he owns and still publishes games with one and not the other, he's more than a little biased on the subject, and besides the vast majority of the DMC series happened without him, the Dante he envisioned is not the Dante of 2, 3, and 4.

Heh, same argument that I gave my cousin after Dante killed Bayonetta. He just really hates Dante.

[Reddish Mage]

You're wrong about that one hit thing. Let me count them, best I can. I count at least 10 hits, not counting the ones that Yang managed to block. Also, Yang's attacks using energy should've been a factor in the fight. But most importantly, Yang being thrown into the roof didn't even dent it. If that had more force then the one that sent her through the pillar, then we should've seen an environmental effect.

Also, you can get sorta hard numbers on Yang's ability to take damage. A series of small blows from Neon, plus one big blow knocking her into a pillar, was about 33% of Yang's aura. (You can see it at 8:09 in S3 E5. The fight starts about 6:00 minutes in.)

If we saw environmental effects for every powerful blow the scenery would be blowing up whenever these powerful fighters go at it. Across all the media we are dealing with they are consistently inconsistent with how much blows damage the heroes and whether they cause environmental damage.

The “one hit drained all her Aura” was something Monty said in the commentary. If Neo got a lot of other hits in they were in nature of pot-shots and bitch slaps.

As far as the fight with Neon Katt, That was Season 3, Death Battle didn’t have the information.

My explanation is that the Paladin hit was an outlier. The girder is made of cardboard.

As for bad faith, well my evidence (besides the RT being their partner right before the fight), is in how they did most of everything. They claim Tifa is a glass cannon for instance, without actually looking at any feats of toughness. They argue that her strength only applies to her limit break, and then they ignore that, even if that's true, it would still suffice to break Yang's Aura. They never even bother to calculate how much potential force that Tifa could unleash during her limit break. (For the record, I calculated it at above 1497 Tons of Force, and I did that by taking a blue whale's weight (something that's clearly smaller and thus lighter then a Weapon, but is at least comparable) and how much force it would take to jump with it. I didn't even bother with the counter acting force of gravity to be overcome, or the force of the throw itself.)

So yeah, I suspect them of having a bias towards Yang winning due to the presentation, the data selected, and their attitude. It's not the first time I've thought them to be bias'd (Peach vs Zelda comes to mind), but it is the first time that I've suspected the bias' root was based in a business decision. Mostly due to the timing of the episode, and who animated the fight itself.

I notice you use say you “suspected the bias” was is in a business decision.

Ultimately, that is all you can do is suspect. I agree it is a biased presentation in that Yang gets more aesthetic goodies, although I am not sure why you should expect a dry perfectly even two-sided presentation and fight in any Death Battle. The show is primarily entertainment. More to the point I agree they have a economic reason to build up Yang, maybe even to make her the winner.

I agree with you about bias, what left is whether that’s enough to conclude that they 1) picked Yang as the winner prior to any analysis and 2) knew that Tifa should win based on their own research.

All I have is what they said to indicate that Rooster Teeth didn’t dictate anything and their treatment was the same as any other battle during the livestream. DB says, or at least imply, they pick winners based on their analysis. I have yet to see that they have ever said otherwise.

If determining the victor based on research would make the show somehow less entertaining than actively lieing about the characters abilities, I would agree they are probably doing the latter. I don’t think it is.

I also don’t agree with your estimation of Tifa’s abilities themselves. I recall giving her hp up Materia and that she died a lot, her hp is low (certainly compared to bosses) and she is a bit of a glass cannon. Moreover, Tifa doesn’t fight Weapon except for an optional encounter, and her arbitrarily strong jumping piledriver animation doesn’t match the damage it does.

Yang’s aura not cracking from her back into a support girder is truly absurd compared to what she normally does. On the RWBY thread for sometime later some were arguing Yang is practically invincible. We haven’t seen that feat repeated with anything comparable and probably won’t. However, RT wouldn’t have likely used this outlier to establish Yang’s toughness and the fact that DB did suggest to me they lacked co-ordination.

Even if everything suggests to you that Yang was picked as a winner prior to any analysis, know that, short of a statement from DB themselves implying that somewhere, I am not going to believe that.

Further, I don’t see how DB can know Tifa would win, because I am not sure there is a fact about which character wins, it may just be a matter of opinion which fictional character beats who. There are too many assumptions that can be altered. I agree Tifa should win based on everything you brought up, but someone else could have a different opinion or simply not have analyzed things so carefully and thoroughly.

Other big questions is how would the mechanics work in the fight. Sans brutally exploits the fight mechanics in his own universe. Those aren't entirely a Gamplay-Fluff segregation. Sans mentions turns being a thing, and Asgore actually attacks your ability to give Mercy. So would fighting Sans force Superman into fighting by Undertale rules? Or would Sans have to fight by Superman rules?

See, the last point is why I don't think Negi could absorb Ragna blade.

Sans fighting Superman is an extreme example of something every cross-over has to deal with. Physics, powers, and abilities are not the same or even necessarily make sense in the context of another universe.

Both Negi and Lina use magic, but Lina’s magic operates based on very specific laws as does negi’s and the two are not perfectly compatible.

This is true too of the Yang-Tifa fight. These fighters are from different universes where abilities work differently. It might be easier to make sense of the notion of both being able to use the full extent of their abilities in a Death Battle, but we are still left with extreme vagueness about what the abilities mean (or concepts such as hit points) when taken out of the context they were meant for.

Moreover, it is an arbitrary decision to analyze fighters abilities using the medium Real Physics(tm) and then to determine who would kill whom based on those results.

In contexts like with Undertale characters, it might not even be.a sensible decision. With powers that work on a game mechanic its not even clear what they mean outside the game. Some might say using PHysics as the medium of comparison doesn’t work for video game characters or even comic book characters either.

I thought of what it would be like for Superman to fight Calvin of Calvin and Hobbs. At first, I thought this would be an example where Superman would obviously win a Death Battle. That would be established fact. Then I realized there are alternative outcomes that make even better sense. In the end I figure Calvin would reveal superpowers and win, then be revealed as just pretending the whole time and playing with a Superman toy.

[Forum Explorer]

If we saw environmental effects for every powerful blow the scenery would be blowing up whenever these powerful fighters go at it. Across all the media we are dealing with they are consistently inconsistent with how much blows damage the heroes and whether they cause environmental damage.

The “one hit drained all her Aura” was something Monty said in the commentary. If Neo got a lot of other hits in they were in nature of pot-shots and bitch slaps.

As far as the fight with Neon Katt, That was Season 3, Death Battle didn’t have the information.

My explanation is that the Paladin hit was an outlier. The girder is made of cardboard.



I notice you use say you “suspected the bias” was is in a business decision.

Ultimately, that is all you can do is suspect. I agree it is a biased presentation in that Yang gets more aesthetic goodies, although I am not sure why you should expect a dry perfectly even two-sided presentation and fight in any Death Battle. The show is primarily entertainment. More to the point I agree they have a economic reason to build up Yang, maybe even to make her the winner.

I agree with you about bias, what left is whether that’s enough to conclude that they 1) picked Yang as the winner prior to any analysis and 2) knew that Tifa should win based on their own research.

All I have is what they said to indicate that Rooster Teeth didn’t dictate anything and their treatment was the same as any other battle during the livestream. DB says, or at least imply, they pick winners based on their analysis. I have yet to see that they have ever said otherwise.

If determining the victor based on research would make the show somehow less entertaining than actively lieing about the characters abilities, I would agree they are probably doing the latter. I don’t think it is.

I also don’t agree with your estimation of Tifa’s abilities themselves. I recall giving her hp up Materia and that she died a lot, her hp is low (certainly compared to bosses) and she is a bit of a glass cannon. Moreover, Tifa doesn’t fight Weapon except for an optional encounter, and her arbitrarily strong jumping piledriver animation doesn’t match the damage it does.

Yang’s aura not cracking from her back into a support girder is truly absurd compared to what she normally does. On the RWBY thread for sometime later some were arguing Yang is practically invincible. We haven’t seen that feat repeated with anything comparable and probably won’t. However, RT wouldn’t have likely used this outlier to establish Yang’s toughness and the fact that DB did suggest to me they lacked co-ordination.

Even if everything suggests to you that Yang was picked as a winner prior to any analysis, know that, short of a statement from DB themselves implying that somewhere, I am not going to believe that.

Further, I don’t see how DB can know Tifa would win, because I am not sure there is a fact about which character wins, it may just be a matter of opinion which fictional character beats who. There are too many assumptions that can be altered. I agree Tifa should win based on everything you brought up, but someone else could have a different opinion or simply not have analyzed things so carefully and thoroughly.

That statement by Monty really doesn't make much sense. What does he say during the rest of the fight?

Also huh, I thought they were in Season 3 when the episode aired, but I guess I remember wrongly.

Of course ultimately all I can do is suspect. To prove such suspicions I would need to find a contract stating that Death Battle was obligated to occasionally use RT characters, and have their characters win. Or record a conversation to that effect. Or to work at Death Battle/RT and be told that's how it works. All of those are extremely difficult to do.

How does the saying go? 'If you follow the money, you'll find the motive?' It obviously doesn't always hold true, but it's when it's a valid motivation for a business then it's one I'm inclined to believe. In this case, particularly so since Death Battle later did an episode that was two characters from the same, RT owned, franchise.

I do think that Yang was preselected to win. But that's mostly because I don't believe the Death Battle team has any particular fondness for the character. But the reason why I think she was preselected to win is because of how they presented Tifa in the fight, and in her evidence blurb. Glossing over achievements and abilities is a pretty standard way to trick people into accepting a different account of events.

Of course they aren't going to say fights are rigged. It would kinda ruin the show if they did. That being said, I don't think it happens often. Other times they might simply be bias'd against a character, just from their past experience with said character. And that bias might make them inclined to focus their research in such a way that it becomes hard for that character to win. But that's different. That's just letting your emotions affect your work, not rigging the fight.

All of Tifa's fights are optional. Well most of them. But like a lot of characters, Tifa doesn't have to be in your party for much of the game. As for glass cannon, I'm more upset that they said she's a glass cannon, but didn't actually give any context to that statement. How is she a glass cannon? What opponents or attacks do we see her lose to? Because that phrase means really different things in different contexts.

Well then I guess you won't believe me, because Death Battle admitting even once that they've rigged a fight for financial benefit (or at all really), would be incredibly bad for them.

Sans fighting Superman is an extreme example of something every cross-over has to deal with. Physics, powers, and abilities are not the same or even necessarily make sense in the context of another universe.

Both Negi and Lina use magic, but Lina’s magic operates based on very specific laws as does negi’s and the two are not perfectly compatible.

This is true too of the Yang-Tifa fight. These fighters are from different universes where abilities work differently. It might be easier to make sense of the notion of both being able to use the full extent of their abilities in a Death Battle, but we are still left with extreme vagueness about what the abilities mean (or concepts such as hit points) when taken out of the context they were meant for.

Moreover, it is an arbitrary decision to analyze fighters abilities using the medium Real Physics(tm) and then to determine who would kill whom based on those results.

In contexts like with Undertale characters, it might not even be.a sensible decision. With powers that work on a game mechanic its not even clear what they mean outside the game. Some might say using PHysics as the medium of comparison doesn’t work for video game characters or even comic book characters either.

I thought of what it would be like for Superman to fight Calvin of Calvin and Hobbs. At first, I thought this would be an example where Superman would obviously win a Death Battle. That would be established fact. Then I realized there are alternative outcomes that make even better sense. In the end I figure Calvin would reveal superpowers and win, then be revealed as just pretending the whole time and playing with a Superman toy.

Yeah it can be tough. A few assumptions here or there can really change how a match plays out. That's why I typically give Death Battle the benefit of the doubt.

[Reddish Mage]

I do think that Yang was preselected to win. But that's mostly because I don't believe the Death Battle team has any particular fondness for the character. But the reason why I think she was preselected to win is because of how they presented Tifa in the fight, and in her evidence blurb. Glossing over achievements and abilities is a pretty standard way to trick people into accepting a different account of events.

Of course they aren't going to say fights are rigged. It would kinda ruin the show if they did. That being said, I don't think it happens often. Other times they might simply be bias'd against a character, just from their past experience with said character. And that bias might make them inclined to focus their research in such a way that it becomes hard for that character to win. But that's different. That's just letting your emotions affect your work, not rigging the fight.

And if it so happens they didn't like Tifa then the analysis would be merely biased not preselected.

The term “bias” can mean a lot of things. Cognitive scientists see it as a human constant only removed under double-blind studies. Real life judges cannot be held to such standards. Normally, a judge can only removed based on a financial interest or an admission of bias

There could be a lot of statements that amount to an admission of bias that could suggest prejudice. I’d be interested if Death Battle ever made one even if it doesn’t amount to saying they prejudged a fight, but since the premise of the show is they pick a winner based on analysis it’s unlikely they would go so far as admit this.

A few assumptions here or there can really change how a match plays out. That's why I typically give Death Battle the benefit of the doubt.

Ultimately, this is why even when I think the outcome should be clear, I can see someone going the other way. There’s only a few times where I really feel the outcome should be different, I’m not going to say that the outcomes are prejudged on those occasions.

[Lemmy]

I'll say that the vast majority of DB's "wrong" results is due to honest incompetence. Sometimes UNBELIEVABLE incompetence, but still honest.

But SOME of them are clearly due to favoritism/bias.

[Forum Explorer]

And if it so happens they didn't like Tifa then the analysis would be merely biased not preselected.

The term “bias” can mean a lot of things. Cognitive scientists see it as a human constant only removed under double-blind studies. Real life judges cannot be held to such standards. Normally, a judge can only removed based on a financial statement or an admission of bias

There could be a lot of statements that amount to an admission of bias that could suggest prejudice. I’d be interested if Death Battle ever made one even if it doesn’t amount to saying they prejudged a fight, but since the premise of the show is they pick a winner based on analysis it’s unlikely they would go so far as admit this.



Ultimately, this is why even when I think the outcome should be clear, I can see someone going the other way. There’s only a few times where I really feel the outcome should be different, I’m not going to say that the outcomes are prejudged on those occasions.

Sure, that's possible. I just suspect that it's either a strong push or an outright requirement by someone for Yang to have won that fight. It's a pretty typical thing to do all things considered. Though I lack hard proof one way or the other.

[Reddish Mage]

Sure, that's possible. I just suspect that it's either a strong push or an outright requirement by someone for Yang to have won that fight. It's a pretty typical thing to do all things considered. Though I lack hard proof one way or the other.

I recall that Death Battle said outright in the livestream they were given full control, which they insist on with anyone who gives them their characters to use. They decided the winner and the winner would kill a the loser (which they say the prospect of the winner killing the loser was the more disturbing to most owners).

They could be lying, but in the absence of evidence I say give them the benefit of the doubt.

Considering how much they gimped Cloud for the Link fight, where they had no financial interest in seeing a particular character win, I wasn’t surprised Tifa was treated similarly.

Ultimately no one is “unbiased” especially people who have been exposed to these characters prior to deathbattle (and having no exposure to these characters probably makes them more likely to make a major omission). Whether the writers have personal favorites is pure speculation.

The Death Battle people say they judge winners based on their analysis. This might actually be important legally, to the extent they do the show arguing fair use. If the show is not commentary and analysis they may need full permission for every character they use. I would believe them.

That doens’t mean the analysis is consistent, or it uses objective criteria, or that they favor any particular method for resolving fights. All it really comes down to is whether they approach their job with at least a modicum of seriousness.

[Knaight]

I'll say that the vast majority of DB's "wrong" results is due to honest incompetence. Sometimes UNBELIEVABLE incompetence, but still honest.

But SOME of them are clearly due to favoritism/bias.

I've yet to see even one that can't be due to incompetence given the levels of incompetence on display.