Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[HolyDraconus]

Oh well. At least Mewtwo beat Shadow right?

[Rater202]

Oh well. At least Mewtwo beat Shadow right?

...That's not even a fair matchup unless they were using an unoptimized mid-level game Mewtwo or giving Shadow the Chaos Emeralds.

[Anteros]

...That's not even a fair matchup unless they were using an unoptimized mid-level game Mewtwo or giving Shadow the Chaos Emeralds.

What makes you think that DB is concerned with fair matchups? Or that they'll pick the right winner even if the matchup is unfair?

[HolyDraconus]

Didn't they give Shadow his super form and state "yeah, doesn't matter"?

[Rater202]

What makes you think that DB is concerned with fair matchups? Or that they'll pick the right winner even if the matchup is unfair?

...The fact that every other matchup at least looks fair on the outside if you don't know the less well-known details of a character?

Meanwhile, Shadow vs Mewtwo is... A Clinically immortal Hedgehog with guns and air-skates and the ability to use Minor Chaos Powers without the emeralds...

Against a genetically engineered fetus-kitty that, depending on continuity, is either the only Psychic-type Pokemon with actual psychic powers in addition to the moves and TK strong enough to create flipping hurricanes and impenetrable forcefield or canonically one of if not the most powerful Pokemon in existence by stats(depending on the game) that can learn powerful moves from almost every type giving it exactly one weakness(lack of physical moves) prior to a certain game.

Looking at it on paper, it's not even pretending to be a fair fight.

[Traab]

Yeah they are less interested in fair fights, and more in matched fights. Like thor/raiden, peach/zelda, flash/quicksilver, etc etc etc. I mean, they TRY to make them reasonable fights, but if there isnt a better matchup for the theme.... meh.

[HolyDraconus]

...The fact that every other matchup at least looks fair on the outside if you don't know the less well-known details of a character?

Meanwhile, Shadow vs Mewtwo is... A Clinically immortal Hedgehog with guns and air-skates and the ability to use Minor Chaos Powers without the emeralds...

Against a genetically engineered fetus-kitty that, depending on continuity, is either the only Psychic-type Pokemon with actual psychic powers in addition to the moves and TK strong enough to create flipping hurricanes and impenetrable forcefield or canonically one of if not the most powerful Pokemon in existence by stats(depending on the game) that can learn powerful moves from almost every type giving it exactly one weakness(lack of physical moves) prior to a certain game.

Looking at it on paper, it's not even pretending to be a fair fight.

Yet they sure as **** tried passing it off as close. Of course, let's gimp mega man and put him up against astro, and completely ignore the in universe explanation on why Mega Man has a usage cap on his weapons (not because he can only use them x times, but the reason why it's x times is so he doesn't become corrupted and evil from so much power, hence why he literally must have them removed between games.) But it's a close fight too. People notice a trend here?

[Reddish Mage]

So Sephiroth vs. Vergil happened (at least I just got it on the website, but I pay to get RWBY early) and...

Spoiler: Sephiroth v Vergil

Show

FF7 final notched a win on Deathbattle, and they like really took Sephiroth seriously...

...that isn't really consistent with the outcomes for Cloud and Tifa, right? I mean, those characters can tank the exploding Sun to the face, they had to be able to tank the exploding sun to the face for you to win the game (I'm pretty sure he uses it at some point automatically during the last fight).

I'd have thought Vergil should just use Yamato to cut through the dimensional barrier and slam Sephiroth and all his clones with superior speed, but then I favored Vergil from the beginning based on how weak they treated FF7 characters prior. Instead, they did actually analyze Sephiroth as immortal and quite the tank as well as the strong guy. They also said that Vergil's Yamato isn't all that in his hands...most of the time.

[HolyDraconus]

So Sephiroth vs. Vergil happened (at least I just got it on the website, but I pay to get RWBY early) and...

Spoiler: Sephiroth v Vergil

Show

FF7 final notched a win on Deathbattle, and they like really took Sephiroth seriously...

...that isn't really consistent with the outcomes for Cloud and Tifa, right? I mean, those characters can tank the exploding Sun to the face, they had to be able to tank the exploding sun to the face for you to win the game (I'm pretty sure he uses it at some point automatically during the last fight).

I'd have thought Vergil should just use Yamato to cut through the dimensional barrier and slam Sephiroth and all his clones with superior speed, but then I favored Vergil from the beginning based on how weak they treated FF7 characters prior. Instead, they did actually analyze Sephiroth as immortal and quite the tank as well as the strong guy. They also said that Vergil's Yamato isn't all that in his hands...most of the time.

To sum it up: trolled.

[Reddish Mage]

To sum it up: trolled.

Your emotional reaction is genuine and appreciated. The suggestion that Death Battle is actually trolling with these videos has already been discussed and I'm not going to approach it further...at least till the 20th when everyone gets there and starts talking about it.

In other news. I rewatched the commentary to WW v Thor. In the end they mentioned that Odinforce Thor (I think that's how they termed him) would have a different analysis but they decided not to use Odinforce since Thor only had that power temporarily and under conditions he did not control.

Also, I'm a bit amazed looking at it a another time that they say WW has faster combat speed then anyone else in DC, and is on par with Zoom even though he was literally using his moves to time travel.

I've heard a lot of people upset by this victory, and I imagine you are arguing that WW feats are outliers not even the result of consistent portrayals, but if WW has such speed and strength portrayed in comics she can perfectly legitimately win on this one.

[HolyDraconus]

Your emotional reaction is genuine and appreciated. The suggestion that Death Battle is actually trolling with these videos has already been discussed and I'm not going to approach it further...at least till the 20th when everyone gets there and starts talking about it.

In other news. I rewatched the commentary to WW v Thor. In the end they mentioned that Odinforce Thor (I think that's how they termed him) would have a different analysis but they decided not to use Odinforce since Thor only had that power temporarily and under conditions he did not control.

Also, I'm a bit amazed looking at it a another time that they say WW has faster combat speed then anyone else in DC, and is on par with Zoom even though he was literally using his moves to time travel.

I've heard a lot of people upset by this victory, and I imagine you are arguing that WW feats are outliers not even the result of consistent portrayals, but if WW has such speed and strength portrayed in comics she can perfectly legitimately win on this one.

Problem though, is that canon wise, she is weaker than Thor. That's a fact. She lost to Storm, who has taken over planets with her abilities, but isn't a match for Thor. But what they went with was 'her sword can cut anything! Periods and ran with it. She has... excuse me.. had a better reaction time than Big Blue, but it was proven that.neither of them can tag Flash when he's legit serious. Key word though is consistency. She is usually portrayed as below Supes an hunter in power, far and away slower than the flash and able to match bats in skill. THOR on the other hand is always shown to tank bloodied and pissed off Hulk, who himself has shown consistently to have infinite power when given time, and managed to fight concepts like Onslaught or Galactus, which WOULD normally require teams of people just to push away, let alone stop. Thor is consistent in power to the point that he is THAT powerful, but Wonder Woman, especially since the REBIRTH mess, is not.

[Reddish Mage]

WW’s strength doesn’t have to be “most of the time,” they are perfectly entitled to take the strongest version of her.

There is something to be said of consistency, but none of these characters are truly being consistently portrayed in their physical attributes, simply because the nature of what they do is violate the laws of physics in helter-skelter fashion.

[Lemmy]

WW’s strength doesn’t have to be “most of the time,” they are perfectly entitled to take the strongest version of her.

They supposedly take characters at their strongest point... Kind of... They often fuse completely different versions of the characters while ignoring others. Other times, they pick characters in weird points of their stories (e.g.:They picked Goku at his weakest point in DBZ and simply applied Super Saiyan multipliers).

The big problem here is that as the thread title says: DB isn't consistent. At all. Even within their own parameters.

[Forum Explorer]

So Sephiroth vs. Vergil happened (at least I just got it on the website, but I pay to get RWBY early) and...

Spoiler: Sephiroth v Vergil

Show

FF7 final notched a win on Deathbattle, and they like really took Sephiroth seriously...

...that isn't really consistent with the outcomes for Cloud and Tifa, right? I mean, those characters can tank the exploding Sun to the face, they had to be able to tank the exploding sun to the face for you to win the game (I'm pretty sure he uses it at some point automatically during the last fight).

I'd have thought Vergil should just use Yamato to cut through the dimensional barrier and slam Sephiroth and all his clones with superior speed, but then I favored Vergil from the beginning based on how weak they treated FF7 characters prior. Instead, they did actually analyze Sephiroth as immortal and quite the tank as well as the strong guy. They also said that Vergil's Yamato isn't all that in his hands...most of the time.

Spoiler

Show

Never has a thread title been so appropriate. I mean, this is how you should analyze FF7 characters, but they pretty much went to the other extreme. I mean by the analysis they used both Tifa and Cloud should have beaten their opponents. But I guess Sephiroth's stats stay the game no matter how weak/strong the party is.

Problem though, is that canon wise, she is weaker than Thor. That's a fact. She lost to Storm, who has taken over planets with her abilities, but isn't a match for Thor.

Maybe Thor is a counter to Storm? I mean he's immune to lightning and (I think) has some control over weather as well. I'd have to read the comic in which they fight to see it though.

[Dragonus45]

That raindrop feat and their asinine interpretation of it needs to die.

[Forum Explorer]

That raindrop feat and their asinine interpretation of it needs to die.

Well unless Dante or Vergil gets a rematch we won't see it again. Though what's your problem with it?

[Reddish Mage]

My own problem with the raindrop feat is that, taken seriously as Vergil and Dante's combat speed, their speed is absolutely outrageous, and nothing else I've seen in the game suggests such speed.

I note Dante still is said to be slower than Bayonetta (although if she was A LOT faster, she might have been favored).

Vergil's speed on the other hand...

Spoiler

Show

doesn't help him in this fight. I don't quite understand the explanation why. Sephiroth, as a FF final boss, may have the edge in endurance, Yamato may not be used to just cut him down, and Sephiroth can multiply himself, but Vergil should be able to cut down all of the clones and get at the main body, unless Sephiroth has the ability to disappear or manipulate minds in ways that were not explained by the analysis. Sephiroth's final attack takes long time, too long even going by FF7 time it is simply uses one turn after Sephiroth undergoes a transformation and once activated no one can avoid or dodge the attack.

I don't recall Sephiroth having super-speed as one of his traits, although it could be implied by something he has done. The only way a normal speed opponent can defeat a super-speed opponent is if that super-speed is inconsistent (almost assuredly) and the normal speed opponent has truly incredible endurance over his opponents strength.

Are we all agreed the result was okay? Is there any real problems with the analysis other than the fact that Sephiroth's impressive stats imply greater durability and strength on the part of Cloud and Tifa?

I don't like seeing super-speed mentioned only to be toss aside as a useless power but that's more of a personal consideration, I won't insist supersede is an automatic victory, even if Vergil can back it up with tremendous demon-killing strength.

[Delicious Taffy]

"The rain didn't touch them for like half a second so clearly they physically hit every single raindrop." What the blue hell are they on about? It's like they don't know that swinging stuff around moves air and creates friction. For all we know, the rain got evaporated and/or pushed by the air. Such a stupid "feat"...

[HolyDraconus]

For those that can see it without paying: trolled. Completely. 'Here's Seph' s materia.... But he doesn't need materia...except that one time he did.' 'Lets ignore that 90% of Seph' s illusions is literally in Cloud's head' it's trolled. I dunno. I feel like I'm missing something

[Anteros]

Well, at least the choreography and animation was decent for once. Seems like they're only good for about one of these a season lately.

[Forum Explorer]

My own problem with the raindrop feat is that, taken seriously as Vergil and Dante's combat speed, their speed is absolutely outrageous, and nothing else I've seen in the game suggests such speed.

I note Dante still is said to be slower than Bayonetta (although if she was A LOT faster, she might have been favored).

Vergil's speed on the other hand...

Spoiler

Show

doesn't help him in this fight. I don't quite understand the explanation why. Sephiroth, as a FF final boss, may have the edge in endurance, Yamato may not be used to just cut him down, and Sephiroth can multiply himself, but Vergil should be able to cut down all of the clones and get at the main body, unless Sephiroth has the ability to disappear or manipulate minds in ways that were not explained by the analysis. Sephiroth's final attack takes long time, too long even going by FF7 time it is simply uses one turn after Sephiroth undergoes a transformation and once activated no one can avoid or dodge the attack.

I don't recall Sephiroth having super-speed as one of his traits, although it could be implied by something he has done. The only way a normal speed opponent can defeat a super-speed opponent is if that super-speed is inconsistent (almost assuredly) and the normal speed opponent has truly incredible endurance over his opponents strength.

Are we all agreed the result was okay? Is there any real problems with the analysis other than the fact that Sephiroth's impressive stats imply greater durability and strength on the part of Cloud and Tifa?

I don't like seeing super-speed mentioned only to be toss aside as a useless power but that's more of a personal consideration, I won't insist supersede is an automatic victory, even if Vergil can back it up with tremendous demon-killing strength.

Spoiler

Show

No, I don't agree with their assessment as seen on the screen. Like you said, Sephiroth doesn't have that many speed feats.
He does have some, as he can basically do a flash step, but Vergil as presented is much faster. Also how they handled the Supernova attack (and their logic on it actually being able to work on Vergil at all) was stupid.

Basically I think Sephiroth would've struggled to hit Vergil and because he would struggle to hit so much, he wouldn't be able to wear down Vergil's regeneration.

Well, at least the choreography and animation was decent for once. Seems like they're only good for about one of these a season lately.

Well it was the season 'finale'.

[HolyDraconus]

Well, at least the choreography and animation was decent for once. Seems like they're only good for about one of these a season lately.

Wait there's more. Infinite Mana. They literally said infinite mana. They ignored everything from Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia bar saying Supernova behaves like a summon. They ignored that he has a literal reach advantage. Brought up for no reason his actual in-game stats.. it's like... are you serious? Did y'all hate Virgil that much?!


Edit: plus! Magic is instant now! Except summons. Like, if that's the case, you cant tell me you don't recognize screwing Tifa and Cloud!


Edit2:wait wait. He 'fought faster foes before'is the reasoning on how he overcame the speed gap between him and Vergil?!....

Nope nope nope. Trolled. Absolutely bloody trolled. Never change DB

[McNum]

There's one tiny detail in this battle that does amuse me a little. Supernova did not kill Vergil. Because Supernova cannot kill anyone. If I remember right, Supernova does CurrentHP * 15/16 damage and adds a lot of status effects. So Vergil coming out of it badly burned, at low HP, and disoriented is exactly how it works in the game.

I probably would have called it out if they had killed Vergil with it. But they at least did that homework, because, yeah, Sephiroth does like to follow up Supernova with another attack and then that kills you, just like here.

[Dragonus45]

Well unless Dante or Vergil gets a rematch we won't see it again. Though what's your problem with it?

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"The rain didn't touch them for like half a second so clearly they physically hit every single raindrop." What the blue hell are they on about? It's like they don't know that swinging stuff around moves air and creates friction. For all we know, the rain got evaporated and/or pushed by the air. Such a stupid "feat"...

I figured that the force of their blows was pushing rain away myself. Because they certainly did move fast but not individually slice every raindrop out of the air fast. It also annoys me because they used it to rob Bayonetta of a fight she easily should have won otherwise.

[Anteros]

In game 3 Vergil is fast enough to catch all of Dante's bullets on his sword, line them up properly on the blade, and flip them back at Dante as if firing a gun of his own. He does this casually without even breaking his stride. These characters are absurdly fast.

[Dragonus45]

In game 3 Vergil is fast enough to catch all of Dante's bullets on his sword, line them up properly on the blade, and flip them back at Dante as if firing a gun of his own. He does this casually without even breaking his stride. These characters are absurdly fast.

Yea but that puts them about on par with other absurdly fast game characters. The raindrop feat is a step above that.

[Reddish Mage]

Yea but that puts them about on par with other absurdly fast game characters. The raindrop feat is a step above that.

I think there is a great deal of differentiation between being capable of being very fast, catching bullets, catching bullets with a blade AND redirecting them (the latter seems impossible), fast enough to slice raindrops in the sky and fast enough to evaporate them, but its all pretty absurd.

Bayonetta is still considered faster, and I don’t recall if she had speed feats of her own that beats slicing through raindrops.

[Forum Explorer]

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I figured that the force of their blows was pushing rain away myself. Because they certainly did move fast but not individually slice every raindrop out of the air fast. It also annoys me because they used it to rob Bayonetta of a fight she easily should have won otherwise.

Ah I see. And yeah, their logic behind the feat is pretty stupid.

[Reddish Mage]

So is all agreed Vergil should have won this one? Or did Sephiroth have some amazing skills that were not mentioned?

[Forum Explorer]

So is all agreed Vergil should have won this one? Or did Sephiroth have some amazing skills that were not mentioned?

No, I agree that the Vergil presented should have won. That doesn't mean the Vergil presented was accurate.

But I don't actually know anything about Vergil to make an estimate of what he's capable of.