Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Lemmy]

That's more because Vegeta was prince of the Sayans, so by default when Freeza went to talk with Vegeta's daddy for ordering the Sayans around, Vegeta himself was usually brought around.

There's no evidence of this, AFAIR.

After genociding most of the Sayan race, Frieza probably just enjoyed personally trash talking Vegeta. Every time they met it was like "Remember how I killed your father and virtually all of your people? Now kneel and obey me!"

Nope. Freeza kept the illusion that planet Vegeta was destroyed by a meteor for years. Vegeta only learned the truth after confronting Dodoria, IIRC.

Frieza and multiple levels of troops showed negative respect for pre-Earth Vegeta. They considered the sayan prince little more than a dog to be given scraps to feed on, and the only noteworthy thing about him was just that-being a prince.

Everyone in Freeza's army is a jerk to everyone who isn't more powerful than them. They don't care about their subordinates or allies one bit beyond "this guy can kill me, so I better stay put". The ginyu forces are an exception... And even then, just barely. They are more worried about the incovenience of losing a team member than saddened by their death.

It's not about Vegeta in particular, it's just that every interaction shown between non-allies in the Freeza army includes Vegeta (or Freeza, who no one will trash-talk for obvious reasons).

[deuterio12]

There's no evidence of this, AFAIR.

King Vegeta and his unnamed mate bore his first child in Age 732, Prince Vegeta. The young prince would later be given to Frieza under unknown circumstances

Vegeta is born around Age 732. His father, King Vegeta, is the king of the Saiyan race. King Vegeta and his race are also under the rule of the interplanetary warlord Frieza, and the former was also forced by Frieza to surrender him to the latter through undisclosed means. While under Frieza's grip, Vegeta was pressured by Frieza to do his bidding or else Frieza would murder Vegeta's father.

Freeza knew how to work son-dad relationships.

Nope. Freeza kept the illusion that planet Vegeta was destroyed by a meteor for years. Vegeta only learned the truth after confronting Dodoria, IIRC.

Yeah, that's what Freeza said, but you would have to be pretty thick to believe that a meteor just happened to destroy the planet filled with plenty of people with reasons to hate Freeza and were about to openly revolt (in particular because certainly there were multiple Sayans that could've just blown up any big meteor coming too close).

Alas Vegeta didn't have a lot of options besides swallowing said lie, because he couldn't exactly call Freeza on that.

Everyone in Freeza's army is a jerk to everyone who isn't more powerful than them. They don't care about their subordinates or allies one bit beyond "this guy can kill me, so I better stay put". The ginyu forces are an exception... And even then, just barely. They are more worried about the incovenience of losing a team member than saddened by their death.

It's not about Vegeta in particular, it's just that every interaction shown between non-allies in the Freeza army includes Vegeta (or Freeza, who no one will trash-talk for obvious reasons).

Why doesn't Freeza trash talks the Gyniu force or his body guards or any his other underlings then? He's usually relatively nice to them (or just goes "you've failed me for the last time" and kills them right there).

[Reddish Mage]

Games are balanced for the player not the characters. If you use the whole touch of death factor for most old games and platformers in general. Then just about every character from the 80s and 90s now all have the exact same durability and it's useless.

I think that was the argument against Zelda vs. Peach. Peach has a durability of one hit (two if she's Super Peach), or whatever from Peach's game, because ignore the RPGs, Peach is hit and die. Zelda, in the horrid non-canon CD-I where she's playable, has heart containers.

Moreover, however, a lot of Death Battle characters have stats that seriously have no reference point to measure. We have problems when speed is a big deal like in Naruto or Dragon Ball. When it comes to video game characters stats are often really hard to value.

Then there's video game characters who mechanics vary a lot (Peach, and Zelda are some of them, we can include Super Smash Bros in the mix).

Video game characters make comic characters look relatively straight forward to evaluate.

Depending on the type of game and how serious the devs take the in-game/cutscene consistency, the gameplay might give you a general idea of the character's "stats", but in general it really doesn't help much... Specially in fighting games and other PvP genres, where pretty much everyone can beat everyone no matter what their in-universe strength is.

In SF, for example, all that we really know is that the majority of characters are more or less equally powerful, save for bosses, joke-characters and a few other exceptions (such as Gen).

But then the next game the bosses are playable and then they are the same strength as anyone.

However is the strength really supposed to be the same? After all, if one player plays the character better, its stronger. Also the cut scenes, lore, and material surrounding the games usually make certain characters stronger than others.

It also goes to things like Akuma having 875 points of Health and Cammy having 900 points of health. if you go by game mechanics Cammy can take more punishment than Akuma. If you go by lore. Of course Akuma is tougher.

There's where the stuff cut opposite way. IF all we had was game mechanics I would say Akuma is weak, but you have lore which probably should win out.

I propose game mechanics, if not completely thrown out, should be considered WEAK evidence of the character's attributes, easily refuted by other evidence such as lore or fighting clips.

Lore itself is also weak, and should be discarded whenever it contradicts the character's displayed attributes (toss out most entries in the Pokedex).

Video/comic of displayed feats are best because it's where people actually see the character fighting the way the authors want to portray them. Lore is often thrown in as an afterthought, never used, and sometimes outright contradict what we see. Game mechanics are the weakest, often times the mechanics are made, not to be true to the character, but for game playability, balancing, and reasons the story team had little input in.

[Anteros]

You know, I actually did have something for this involving frieza and the map being consistent across iterations but... why? What's the point in contributing when people like you exist, and through the virtue of sheer negativity attempt to discredit what others are saying. You're a worthless jackass. And it's absolutely not worth adding information to something when the first response is 'You're lying'.

In other words, you don't actually have any evidence at all and resort to insults when people ask about it.

[Lemmy]

King Vegeta and his unnamed mate bore his first child in Age 732, Prince Vegeta. The young prince would later be given to Frieza under unknown circumstances

Vegeta is born around Age 732. His father, King Vegeta, is the king of the Saiyan race. King Vegeta and his race are also under the rule of the interplanetary warlord Frieza, and the former was also forced by Frieza to surrender him to the latter through undisclosed means. While under Frieza's grip, Vegeta was pressured by Frieza to do his bidding or else Frieza would murder Vegeta's father.

Freeza knew how to work son-dad relationships.

That tells us Vegeta was "given" to Freeza... Not that it usually accompanied King Vegeta (or Freeza). In fact, at the time planet Vegeta is away, Vegeta is gods-know-where in what seems to be just another random mission for him. King Vegeta also never says anything about expecting to see his son when Freeaa shows up.

Yeah, that's what Freeza said, but you would have to be pretty thick to believe that a meteor just happened to destroy the planet filled with plenty of people with reasons to hate Freeza and were about to openly revolt (in particular because certainly there were multiple Sayans that could've just blown up any big meteor coming too close).

Alas Vegeta didn't have a lot of options besides swallowing said lie, because he couldn't exactly call Freeza on that.

But he did swallow it. As shown by his reaction in Namek after learning the truth... Not that he cared much, other than in the sense that it was an insult to his saiyan pride.

Why doesn't Freeza trash talks the Gyniu force or his body guards or any his other underlings then? He's usually relatively nice to them (or just goes "you've failed me for the last time" and kills them right there).

Freeza doesn't trash-talk anyone because he doesn't need to. Before Vegeta's desertion (or Bardock's last stand, if you want to get technical), no one dares defy him. He is far, far more powerful than everyone below him and he knows it. He commands absolute obedience from everyone. When someone displeases him, he skips the trash-talk and goes straight to murder. That's pretty much his whole personality: being cold, arrogant, sadistic and evil as hell... While also displaying oddly calm, refined and regal mannerisms... Well, until the Z-warriors frustrate his plans time and time again in Namek... At that point he starts letting his inner cruelty slip more and more often, to the point where he's pretty much nothing but rage during fight against Goku.

[Lemmy]

But then the next game the bosses are playable and then they are the same strength as anyone.

However is the strength really supposed to be the same? After all, if one player plays the character better, its stronger. Also the cut scenes, lore, and material surrounding the games usually make certain characters stronger than others.

You do realize that you're agreeing with me, right? What I said is that (lore-wise) most SF character are about on par with each other... Except for boss characters (usually said to be stronger, such as M.Bison, Akuma, Seth, etc), joke characters (usually said to be weaker, such as Dan, Sean and possibly Rufus) and a few other exceptions (Gouken and Gen are said to be as powerful as Akuma. In fact, Gen is the only character to successfully resist Akuma's Wrath of the Raging Demon technique... Even Gouken was killed by it, but was later retconned into being put into some sort of comatose state for years). "Apprentice characters" are usually shown to be slightly below their "masters" too (Sakura, R.Mika, Yang & Yun, etc), but it's unclear how much.

Even then, while Dan is definitely weaker than pretty much every other character in the SF universe, he's still way above normal fighters, and in fact, became quite cocky and overconfident after winning a series of street fights against unnamed npcs... Also, technically, he beat Sagat.

[Reddish Mage]

Well, until the Z-warriors frustrate his plans time and time again in Namek... At that point he starts letting his inner cruelty slip more and more often, to the point where he's pretty much nothing but rage during fight against Goku.

I’d like to point out the Frieza during that battle was fighting at a level he has never fought before, and when he did destroy the planet he had to charge up first, and it took quite some time to destroy (I think they said 6 minutes but, as is usual, it certainly looks like it took a lot longer going by the footage and long conversation happening while the planet was getting destroyed).

Contrast what Frieza did when he destroyed the Earth in Super. then it took a little less than 5 minutes (we know because that’s how long Whis can rewind time)

You do realize that you're agreeing with me, right? What I said is that (lore-wise) most SF character are about on par with each other... Except for boss characters (usually said to be stronger, such as M.Bison, Akuma, Seth, etc), joke characters (usually said to be weaker, such as Dan, Sean and possibly Rufus) and a few other exceptions (Gouken and Gen are said to be as powerful as Akuma. In fact, Gen is the only character to successfully resist Akuma's Wrath of the Raging Demon technique... Even Gouken was killed by it, but was later retconned into being put into some sort of comatose state for years). "Apprentice characters" are usually shown to be slightly below their "masters" too (Sakura, R.Mika, Yang & Yun, etc), but it's unclear how much.

Wait, I’m agreeing with you. Your right I take that back

[Lemmy]

I’d like to point out the Frieza during that battle was fighting at a level he has never fought before, and when he did destroy the planet he had to charge up first, and it took quite some time to destroy (I think they said 6 minutes but, as is usual, it certainly looks like it took a lot longer going by the footage and long conversation happening while the planet was getting destroyed).

Contrast what Frieza did when he destroyed the Earth in Super. then it took a little less than 5 minutes (we know because that’s how long Whis can rewind time)

Yes. Freeza was so used to have things his way that when he's finally defied, he basically goes berserk!

And let's not talk about Namek-time. It's like the Torunament of Power that supposedly lasts only 45 minutes but took dozens of episodes... Time is very relative in DBZ. But instead of being related to how fast things are moving, it depends on the drama of the action going on... :

Wait, I’m agreeing with you. Your right I take that back

What? No! You agreed with me! Keep your statement! You have to take it back only when we disagree... Because in that case you're surely objectively wrong.

[Rater202]

Guys? Namek was decades and thousands to hundreds of millions of PL pst the point where people started moving faster than even the best trained human eyes can see without ki enhancement.

Namek did take over five minutes... But Frieza and goku were moving really fast and also had their senses keyed to that speed.

Also, as I cited earliar, Frieza was able to destroy planet Vegeta near-instantly in a much weaker form.

It is explicit that the reason Namek took so long to explode is because Frieza was afraid that he wouldn't survive the explosion and wussed out at the last second, underselling the blast

[HolyDraconus]

You do realize that you're agreeing with me, right? What I said is that (lore-wise) most SF character are about on par with each other... Except for boss characters (usually said to be stronger, such as M.Bison, Akuma, Seth, etc), joke characters (usually said to be weaker, such as Dan, Sean and possibly Rufus) and a few other exceptions (Gouken and Gen are said to be as powerful as Akuma. In fact, Gen is the only character to successfully resist Akuma's Wrath of the Raging Demon technique... Even Gouken was killed by it, but was later retconned into being put into some sort of comatose state for years). "Apprentice characters" are usually shown to be slightly below their "masters" too (Sakura, R.Mika, Yang & Yun, etc), but it's unclear how much.

Even then, while Dan is definitely weaker than pretty much every other character in the SF universe, he's still way above normal fighters, and in fact, became quite cocky and overconfident after winning a series of street fights against unnamed npcs... Also, technically, he beat Sagat.

Sean wasn't originally a joke character (nerfs did that to him) and Seth was at best a midboss. As of sfv, don't forget that Dhalsim can no sell a full powered dark hado punch from Ryu, Abel IS supposed to be on Gill' s level, Ken has dropped in power, and dictator has only shown his full power once (in alpha 3) and since then has been fighting as if one hand is tied behind his back.... Or like Oro (who is rumored at Akuma' s level).... And that all of tekken is real in the street fighter universe.

[Devonix]

So i guess the characters also tuned their mouths and ears to speak and hear at super speed too.

Yeah it really did take 5 minutes. But only there is no logic behind it. No them tuning themselves. It's 5 minutes because we ignore any actual reasoning and move at the speed of the plot.

[McNum]

So with the 50th page coming up, do we have any good ideas for the fourth thread's title?

I'm thinking...
Death Battle IV - Last time, on Dragon Ball Z...

Or going the other way...
Death Battle IV - Not a Dragon Ball Thread

It's either one or the other in my book, because this thread is Dragon Ball this, Dragon Ball that to the point of insanity. They're not even fighting right now, none of them!

As for timing, I think the new thread should be next Wednesday, so it can kick off with Sora vs. Pit on page 1.

[Maryring]

Death Battle: Superman vs Goku lIVes on forever.

[Lemmy]

Sean wasn't originally a joke character (nerfs did that to him) and Seth was at best a midboss. As of sfv, don't forget that Dhalsim can no sell a full powered dark hado punch from Ryu, Abel IS supposed to be on Gill' s level, Ken has dropped in power, and dictator has only shown his full power once (in alpha 3) and since then has been fighting as if one hand is tied behind his back.... Or like Oro (who is rumored at Akuma' s level).... And that all of tekken is real in the street fighter universe.

Eeehh... Kinda of... Sean was always shown as "not quite as strong as the rest of the cast". He has a line saying "don't call me Dan" (which is ironic, considering Dan actually ahs a bunch of wins against random NPCs under his name, while Sean is just Ken's trainee). Ken didn't so much go down in power as got sidetracked, but eventually fought Ryu again and regained his fighting spirit... Dhalsim no-selling the Dark Hadou is more a case of "inner peace/focus nullifying dark powers" than he actually having greater raw power than ryu. He probably wouldn't be able to no-sell a normal hadouken. M.Bison (dictator) fighting half-heartedly fits what I said about him being stronger than the overall cast. Oro is supposedly stronger than even Akuma, but never does anything...

I don't know about Abel being on par with Gill... I have no idea where that information comes from. IIRC, Abel is basically a replacement body for M.Bison (dictator) that didn't get Seth's "upgrades". Do Abel and Gill even appear in the same scene at any point?

(and I think the Tekken universe thing is only true in the crossover title... Just like in Marvel characters and a bunch of Capcom characters from different universe all exist within the same universe in MvC).

[Durkoala]

So with the 50th page coming up, do we have any good ideas for the fourth thread's title?

I'm thinking...
Death Battle IV - Last time, on Dragon Ball Z...

Or going the other way...
Death Battle IV - Not a Dragon Ball Thread

It's either one or the other in my book, because this thread is Dragon Ball this, Dragon Ball that to the point of insanity. They're not even fighting right now, none of them!

As for timing, I think the new thread should be next Wednesday, so it can kick off with Sora vs. Pit on page 1.

cough cough

Well, we're back here again. I propose we call the next thread Death Battle IV: Superman vs Goku lies dead but dreaming because the damn thing just keeps coming back. Yay or nay?

[Forum Explorer]

cough cough

I'll second Goku vs Superman Lies Dead but Dreaming.


But you know what I'm surprised hasn't made an appearance in the show yet? Anything from Type Moon. I mean Fate/ is a huge franchise, and there are full on fighting sprites of all that characters from Tsukihime.

I actually think FMA would make for some pretty decent opponents.

Ed vs Shirou

Wrath vs Bazzet.

Pride vs Sakura

Lust vs Lancer

Kimberly vs Rin

[Rater202]

But you know what I'm surprised hasn't made an appearance in the show yet? Anything from Type-Moon. I mean Fate/ is a huge franchise, and there are full of fighting sprites of all that characters from Tsukihime.

*shakes hand*

Not good opponents. A lot of stuff in Type-Moon is conceptual--if one of the Shikis stabs you in a point of death or cuts you across a line of death, you, part of you, or a fundamental ability of yours will die.

Gae Bolg will pierce your heart unless your luck or inherent ability to passively defy fate and manipulate probability, exceeds the power of the Spear's curse, simply because it's already pierced your heart before it was thrown and no amount of dodging or invulnerability will prevent that.

Gungod's Gun will Kill a God it's used against.

And honestly, I can't think of many settings that have Luck the way Type-Moon has luck.

[Traab]

I'll second Goku vs Superman Lies Dead but Dreaming.


But you know what I'm surprised hasn't made an appearance in the show yet? Anything from Type Moon. I mean Fate/ is a huge franchise, and there are full on fighting sprites of all that characters from Tsukihime.

I actually think FMA would make for some pretty decent opponents.

Ed vs Shirou

Wrath vs Bazzet.

Pride vs Sakura

Lust vs Lancer

Kimberly vs Rin

Mustang versus Zuko maybe? Im not quite sure how much of mustangs finesse and control would interact with zukos fire bending, and the lightning bending thing would likely be an interesting trick to pull out. And whuile he may focus on fire, thats far from the only skill set mustang has. And both characters are more or less human in terms of strength speed and durability. Both have had extensive combat records against various opponents, zuko MIGHT have an edge in that he spent a lot of his time training against other fire benders in particular while fire was always mustangs thing, he fought very adaptable opponents with a wide range of skills.

[Ibrinar]

The two characters with mystic eye of death perception (kara no kyoukai and the tsukihime mc) are an interesting case for such battles, it gives them considerable offensive powers against non super speed opponent but they aren't super powered otherwise. Well girl Shiki isn't weak and guy Shiki has his assassin family super mode but slightly superhuman at most. And there are limits to guy Shikis ability see his trouble killing Arcueid, he has to erase the ground beneath her to weaken her so that he can see how to kill her. Though I read after the main story it grows stronger over the years. Anyway they might be able to beat some really tanky but not super fast character. Though it is hard to judge the limits of the eyes.

-----

Another topic the nature of how death battle uses feats made me think that there should be characters in some story where A is superior to B in their story but going by death battle style feats B wins against A (if you ignore A being canonically better of course), can anyone think of a good example?

[Traab]

Death Battle IV: Surely THIS Time You Will Believe Me About Goku!
Death Battle IV: Can We Just Pretend They Never Fought?

[Forum Explorer]

*shakes hand*

Not good opponents. A lot of stuff in Type-Moon is conceptual--if one of the Shikis stabs you in a point of death or cuts you across a line of death, you, part of you, or a fundamental ability of yours will die.

Gae Bolg will pierce your heart unless your luck or inherent ability to passively defy fate and manipulate probability, exceeds the power of the Spear's curse, simply because it's already pierced your heart before it was thrown and no amount of dodging or invulnerability will prevent that.

Gungod's Gun will Kill a God it's used against.

And honestly, I can't think of many settings that have Luck the way Type-Moon has luck.

Shiki's power is pretty absolute, but does have the big weakness of being shackled to a 'normal' human. Emphasis on those quotation marks cause Shiki does some pretty crazy stuff despite that. Point is, Shiki could be defeated by anyone skilled enough to just not get stabbed.


Sure, but that's why I put him up against a homunculus who can regenerate, or at least, not care about a hole in their chest. Lust would probably make a snide and/or sexual joke about it.

I honestly like the more conceptual stuff for opponents. It's like Kenshirio vs Jotaro. Kenshiro can kill with a touch, but Star Platinum is invincible and can protect Jotaro. Instead of needing to pull out really questionable physics from brief clips you can just boil it down to a couple of questions or even just one:

Can Kenshiro survive Star Platinum long enough to land a blow on Jotaro?

Answer that, and you've got a pretty clear winner.

or in this case:

Can Lust survive Gae Bolg? If yes, can she actually land a killing blow on Lancer?

[Devonix]

Canonicaly Ken has actually always been superior to Ryu. Street fighter V marks the first time in Universe that Ryu has beaten him.

[Lemmy]

Canonicaly Ken has actually always been superior to Ryu. Street fighter V marks the first time in Universe that Ryu has beaten him.

Canonicaly, they're pretty much on par. Ryu beats Ken in the Alpha/Zero series as well... Ken is implied to have beaten Ryu in SFII... In the other games, there's pretty much no official result of their matches (or any other matches, actually, other than a few endings).

Anyway, for the title of the next thread, I vote for the "Last time in Dragon Ball Z", because it's short, simple and funny. I also liked the old idea of something like "As enjoyable as Bleach".

[Devonix]

Canonicaly, they're pretty much on par. Ryu beats Ken in the Alpha/Zero series as well... Ken is implied to have beaten Ryu in SFII... In the other games, there's pretty much no official result of their matches (or any other matches, actually, other than a few endings).

Anyway, for the title of the next thread, I vote for the "Last time in Dragon Ball Z", because it's short, simple and funny. I also liked the old idea of something like "As enjoyable as Bleach".

Ken beats Ryu in Alpha 1 As well as Beaten Ryu in Street Fighter 2 As well as beating Ryu at the start of Street Fighter 5and I don't actually recall Ryu beating him an any of the other Alpha games. Ken's beaten Satsui No Hado Ryu, and Ryu's beaten Mind Controled Ken but I don't really consider either of those real fights since neither were in their right mind.

If you only take fights where they are in control of themselves. It's Ken 3 wins Ryu 1

[HolyDraconus]

Eeehh... Kinda of... Sean was always shown as "not quite as strong as the rest of the cast". He has a line saying "don't call me Dan" (which is ironic, considering Dan actually ahs a bunch of wins against random NPCs under his name, while Sean is just Ken's trainee). Ken didn't so much go down in power as got sidetracked, but eventually fought Ryu again and regained his fighting spirit... Dhalsim no-selling the Dark Hadou is more a case of "inner peace/focus nullifying dark powers" than he actually having greater raw power than ryu. He probably wouldn't be able to no-sell a normal hadouken. M.Bison (dictator) fighting half-heartedly fits what I said about him being stronger than the overall cast. Oro is supposedly stronger than even Akuma, but never does anything...

I don't know about Abel being on par with Gill... I have no idea where that information comes from. IIRC, Abel is basically a replacement body for M.Bison (dictator) that didn't get Seth's "upgrades". Do Abel and Gill even appear in the same scene at any point?

(and I think the Tekken universe thing is only true in the crossover title... Just like in Marvel characters and a bunch of Capcom characters from different universe all exist within the same universe in MvC).

Sean was supposed to be in the same boat as Sakura/Yin and Yang etc, but nerfs killed him in game. That quote is eh tho. Abel was supposedly picked out by Gill to be a chosen one. Whatever that means.


HOWEVER, as of Tekken 7 making Akuma canon in the STORY, that blew the door open for them sharing the same universe. They even went back and adjusted a character death to support him.

Canonicaly Ken has actually always been superior to Ryu. Street fighter V marks the first time in Universe that Ryu has beaten him.

Agreed.

Canonicaly, they're pretty much on par. Ryu beats Ken in the Alpha/Zero series as well... Ken is implied to have beaten Ryu in SFII... In the other games, there's pretty much no official result of their matches (or any other matches, actually, other than a few endings).

Sf2 is becoming more and more uncanon as the years go by. They even Retconned dictator getting bodied by Akuma.

[Devonix]

And Dalsim IS Stronger. Dalsim is considered one of the top teirs of the Street Fighter Universe and depicted as Oro's eventual replacement.

[deuterio12]

Can Lust survive Gae Bolg? If yes, can she actually land a killing blow on Lancer?

Better question: can Gae Bolg kill anybody besides his owner? Because literally everybody else it is used against survives it.

May be because making one's attack a Luck contest isn't a very bright idea when Lancer has an E for luck.

Besides the wiki specifies that someone who can survive without a heart can tank Gae Bolg just fine too, and homunculus don't mind losing internal organs that much.

[Forum Explorer]

Better question: can Gae Bolg kill anybody besides his owner? Because literally everybody else it is used against survives it.

May be because making one's attack a Luck contest isn't a very bright idea when Lancer has an E for luck.

Besides the wiki specifies that someone who can survive without a heart can tank Gae Bolg just fine too, and homunculus don't mind losing internal organs that much.

He does manage to kill Bazzet with it. She's stuck in a time loop so she gets better. (Actually I only know of him using it twice in the main story, once against Saber and once against Archer.)

Lancer's horrible luck is pretty well, completely fitting with which Heroic Spirit he was.

True, but Gae Bolg is supposed to prevent healing, which might interfere with Lust.

[deuterio12]

He does manage to kill Bazzet with it. She's stuck in a time loop so she gets better. (Actually I only know of him using it twice in the main story, once against Saber and once against Archer.)

Lancer impaled Shirou himself right at the start. Ok, technically he was left bleeding to death, but still survived long enough for somebody else to throw a heal his way.

Lancer's horrible luck is pretty well, completely fitting with which Heroic Spirit he was.

Just saying, it's explicitly a roll of the dice more than a 100% sure kill, and Lancer rolls horribly.

True, but Gae Bolg is supposed to prevent healing, which might interfere with Lust.

As pointed above, you can heal Gae Bolg's wounds just by throwing mana at it. Maybe you're confusing it with Zero Lancer who had a specific anti-healing spear.

[Forum Explorer]

Lancer impaled Shirou himself right at the start. Ok, technically he was left bleeding to death, but still survived long enough for somebody else to throw a heal his way.


Just saying, it's explicitly a roll of the dice more than a 100% sure kill, and Lancer rolls horribly.



As pointed above, you can heal Gae Bolg's wounds just by throwing mana at it. Maybe you're confusing it with Zero Lancer who had a specific anti-healing spear.

That wasn't his Noble Phantasm though. I'm not counting every time he fights.

More like his luck is so bad he always faces opponents that can block the 100% sure kill somehow.

Shirou being healed was always a plot hole, cause Saber is called out that she couldn't heal her wound from Gae Bolg properly. Though I suppose prevent is a bit strong, hinder healing is a better way to describe it.