Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Anteros]

What? That's all with Yoda in Empire Strikes Back. The whole - he's a 900+ year old decaying goblin who barely rises to Luke's shins but has power beyond reckoning - thing.

We're luminous beings, not crude matter.

etc.

Edit: Incidently, if you do want a questionably canonical expression of original trilogy Palpatine's powers, he's the final boss character in The Force Unleashed where he's quite fast in a float-y wraith-like way.

What I meant was that in the original trilogy they were powerful, but also old and decrepit. They didn't turn into backflipping kung fu masters until the prequels decided to ret-con things.

Vader and Obi-Wan fight slowly and deliberately. Partly because of technology restraints at the time, but also because Lucas originally envisioned lightsabers to be incredibly heavy and unwieldy weapons. Yoda needs Luke to carry him around the swamp. Palpatine is defeated by being slowly picked up and thrown over a guard rail.

The whole "every powerful person is also an Olympic level gymnast" thing was definitely a ret-con.

[Kitten Champion]

What I meant was that in the original trilogy they were powerful, but also old and decrepit. They didn't turn into backflipping kung fu masters until the prequels decided to ret-con things.

Vader and Obi-Wan fight slowly and deliberately. Partly because of technology restraints at the time, but also because Lucas originally envisioned lightsabers to be incredibly heavy and unwieldy weapons. Yoda needs Luke to carry him around the swamp. Palpatine is defeated by being slowly picked up and thrown over a guard rail.

The whole "every powerful person is also an Olympic level gymnast" thing was definitely a ret-con.

I agree from a conceptual standpoint, it would've been interesting to develop more diverse outlets for the Force along the OT's thematic lines - at least within the cinematic space - beyond just taking what was extant in the OT and pumping it up to eleven.

Although, I wouldn't characterize any of those characters as actually being decrepit. Obi-Wan was slinking around the Death Star quite handily, and then fought a largely ceremonial battle he intended to quickly lose. Yoda was playing up his infirmity in the same way he'd frequently embellish his senility. Palpatine was - I don't know - even ignoring the prequels and just following the internal logic of the OT Palpatine's appearance is the twisted guise of a man who performs dark sorcery and less an invalid.

Still, why pick Palpatine when he was at his most aged? Even if we accept the decrepit interpretation of RotJ Palpatine - it's a death battle - and acceptance of the prequel version of Force Users or not, it doesn't make sense to pick the version of him which has the least active display of feats for such a battle. It would be like taking the Superman from the "At Earth's End" comic to fight against Goku.

[Anteros]

Still, why pick Palpatine when he was at his most aged? Even if we accept the decrepit interpretation of RotJ Palpatine - it's a death battle - and acceptance of the prequel version of Force Users or not, it doesn't make sense to pick the version of him which has the least active display of feats for such a battle. It would be like taking the Superman from the "At Earth's End" comic to fight against Goku.

I don't disagree. I was just nit-picking about how the Star Wars canon changed, not trying to establish a baseline for Palpy in a Death Battle.

[Rater202]

1: Emporer Palpatine, not Chancellor Palpatine, was the proposal

2: Original Trilogy is most iconic and death battles ignores stuff more important than his two RotS fights all the time

3: He entered his most decrepit state from overexerting himself and/or overusing force lightning during those fights.

[Keltest]

Keep in mind that even if he is decrepit and slow, the force allows for a degree of precognition, which is how jedi are able to deflect blaster bolts. Unless theyre in the middle of a featureless plane with no obstacles, Palpatine still has a possibility of dodging, though he would have to go on the offense pretty quickly afterwards.

[Reddish Mage]

So... Can the Emporer use the Force to push himself out of the way in a few seconds or enhance his reflexes to levels comparable to a prodigious athlete? Can he use it to push a thick, solid object or a meat shield between himself and the spell the time it takes it to fly?

Though strictly speaking, if this is a fight to the Death, then Tom wins by default. Horcruxes mean he can't die and the Horcruxes can only be destroyed by like, two things that we know of.

I agree Palpatine cannot dodge if the killing curse is a practically instant flash of light the way Death Battle Curse analyzed it from the book. He can however move the wand or interrupt Voldemort with a Force choke (someone also mentioned he could simply anticipatory dodge the attack).

They also ruled that Voldemort could get close enough to dead for purposes of who wins the match.

What wasn’t decided was how the Force interacts with magic. If there is transparency (I name the concept after psionics/magic in D&D 3.5) then Palpatine can control magic just like we see Jedi dealing with other forms of energy. Any magic cast could just be trapped in his hands like Count Dooku’s Force lightning in Yoda’s.

What? That's all with Yoda in Empire Strikes Back. The whole - he's a 900+ year old decaying goblin who barely rises to Luke's shins but has power beyond reckoning - thing.

We're luminous beings, not crude matter.

etc.

Edit: Incidently, if you do want a questionably canonical expression of original trilogy Palpatine's powers, he's the final boss character in The Force Unleashed where he's quite fast in a float-y wraith-like way.

The Force Unleashed is EU though, and I mentioned at the start that EU Palpatine supposedly can kill with a look or something.

Still, the logic of elderly Force users being fast and skilled based on martial art movies holds up. We see it for Yoda in Attack of the Clones and Palpatine can either do that or his knowledge of the Force allows anticipatory dodges and blocks.

Although relying on demonstrations of elderly martial artists skill raise questions why these old mentor types just don’t save the world themselves.

[Rynjin]

I agree Palpatine cannot dodge if the killing curse is a practically instant flash of light the way Death Battle Curse analyzed it from the book. He can however move the wand or interrupt Voldemort with a Force choke (someone also mentioned he could simply anticipatory dodge the attack).

Wouldn't really help. Voldemort is one of the very few wizards that can perform wand-less, incantation-less magic.

The magic is weaker, theoretically, but "instant death" doesn't really have an effect to downgrade to. It's still just instant death.

[Keltest]

Wouldn't really help. Voldemort is one of the very few wizards that can perform wand-less, incantation-less magic.

The magic is weaker, theoretically, but "instant death" doesn't really have an effect to downgrade to. It's still just instant death.

The mechanics of wandless magic are poorly explained, but my takeaway wasn't that the magic was weaker so much as there was a hard cap to how strong a spell he could perform.

[Reddish Mage]

And the Unforgivable Curses are very high level magic. They cannot be done wandless and incantation-less.

Also, as I've intimated before Emperor Palpatine has Jedi-reflexes, he can see what's coming and react to it before Voldemort has thought of it.

I don't see why Palpatine cannot manipulate most spells like any other source of energy.

If we did go with EU Palpatine, Voldemort simply doesn't stand a chance. This Palpatine can also avoid death by swapping bodies, so we could have a stalemated Death Battle if the "death" requirement was taken literally.

Even going with Disney canon, I don't think Palpatine is downgraded in a fundamental manner. He may or may not have an instant death attack, but he does have all the basic Force powers we've seen on screen (choke, lightning, telekinesis, etc) and the ability to anticipate attacks into the future.

Voldemort abilities without a wand are quite limited and Palpatine's powers should let him get the jump.

[Rater202]

Unless Voldemort walks up to him slowly and picks him up.

[Anteros]

Unless Voldemort walks up to him slowly and picks him up.

Everyone's got to have a weakness.

[Traab]

Summon dobby, give him a flashlight, then tell him to attack palpatine. While palpatine is having palpitations over yoda coming back from the dead, THROW HIM DOWN AN OPEN SHAFT! Boom, totally unbeatable strat for killing sideous.

[Kitten Champion]

1: Emporer Palpatine, not Chancellor Palpatine, was the proposal

He's Emperor by the conclusion of the Prequels, not just decades later.

2: Original Trilogy is most iconic and death battles ignores stuff more important than his two RotS fights all the time

The Prequels are where 90% of the Palpatine character exists, outside of the EU novels.

3: He entered his most decrepit state from overexerting himself and/or overusing force lightning during those fights.

That's not decrepit, that's his "true face" from using the dark side. At least that's the implication I got from every bit of Star Wars media since then.

Wouldn't really help. Voldemort is one of the very few wizards that can perform wand-less, incantation-less magic.

The magic is weaker, theoretically, but "instant death" doesn't really have an effect to downgrade to. It's still just instant death.

There's no evidence a wand-less and vocal-less Avada Kedavra is possible. Whenever he or anyone in the HP universe is shown casting it, it's always with a wand and verbal component - given Harry and Voldemort's wands' interacting is an essential plot point it has come up as a thing of note.

Edit: There would be no point in casting Expelliarmus towards Voldemort if he could simply kill mentally without a word, or on anyone at all. Someone would probably mention that at some point, I think.

[Rater202]

The Prequels are where 90% of the Palpatine character exists, outside of the EU novels.

and he's only the Emporer for like, ten total mnutes of screen time and 90% of his character is him playing a role: So "used to be able to fightt but needed prodigy Jedi Anakin tosave him in one of them, manipulative and good at long cons."

Edit: There would be no point in casting Expelliarmus towards Voldemort if he could simply kill mentally without a word, or on anyone at all. Someone would probably mention that at some point, I think.

1: most wizards can't cast spells without wands and silent casting is like, ridiculously hard(as demonstrated by the fact that most people still use the words even though learning how to cast without them is a mandatory part of the sixth year curriculum for most classes.) so there is in fact a use for Expelliarmus.

2: Harry didn't cast Expeliarmus against Voldemort because it would work.He cast it because he was surrounded, couldn't dodge, was desperate, and it was the first thing that came to mind. That it worked at all was becuase of outside factors that neither Harry nor Tom were aware of.

[Reddish Mage]

So they announced that the first death battle of the new season will be:

Batman vs. Black Panther

No doubt will be controversial whatever the result.

[Anteros]

In a "real" fight Batman would win without breaking a sweat. In Death Battle Panther will win because they nerf Batman to an extreme extent. A Batman who is going all out would call in his suits he uses to beat down the entire Justice League or Darkseid. Death Battle's version lost a fight to Spiderman. They'll have him just punch at Panther's armor like a moron and be unable to actually do anything.

[Dragonus45]

They need to stop reusing things. ESPECIALLY BATMAN, LET HIM DIE. Spiderman killed him, then Captain America did as well because screw that loaded fanboy appeasement crapbasket of a fight.

[Delicious Taffy]

Oh, goody, another Batman fight. They certainly haven't done enough of those.

[Traab]

In a "real" fight Batman would win without breaking a sweat. In Death Battle Panther will win because they nerf Batman to an extreme extent. A Batman who is going all out would call in his suits he uses to beat down the entire Justice League or Darkseid. Death Battle's version lost a fight to Spiderman. They'll have him just punch at Panther's armor like a moron and be unable to actually do anything.

Because he has it hovering over him at all times just in case he should stumble over darkseid? I was annoyed enough by the iron man ending. Even if I agreed with the outcome, calling in his magic suit like that was kinda lame. But in a death battle batman isnt allowed to run and hide for 15 minutes till his bat drones can drop off his bat power armor from his bat armory. And they also generally try to avoid one offs when it comes to power ups. Thats why joker didnt have mxyzsptlk power against sweet tooth. Its basically the best version of the characters standard load outs. Yeah it doesnt always work out that way, but its how they generally try to do things.

[Lemmy]

DB makes Batman fight like an idiot... And I doubt they'll risk angering the PC crowd by having Black Panther lose.

[Devonix]

Don't really see how Batman stands a chance against Panther. He's a richer Batman with actual super powers.

[Rater202]

He's a richer Batman with actual superpowers.

Not quite. The Wakandan heartshaped herb merely brings you to the peak of human potential, which Batman also possesses(Albiet in the form of rigorous training and careful diet.) The spiritual connection to the panther god is symbolic(although this is enough to make him count as a Totem for the sake of the Inheritors)

In fact, I think it's been speculated that chemicals extracted from the herb are ingredients in Super Soldier serum.

[S_A_M I AM]

I promise I've got no horse in this race, I'm genuinely just curious about potential answers and it's on-topic for this thread rather than starting a new one.

Are there any advantages, in terms of audience satisfaction or understanding of a work if you're presuming strict or broad parity between the physics of stories? (or in most cases, within stories.)

Don't get me wrong, I get looking for an in-universe consistency ("This person just deadlifted a car but lost an arm wrestling contest to a baby; Wut?") but the way people talk about it always makes it seem like a very, different conversation that I feel like I once got instinctively but are no longer able to put into words.

Its not made of styrofoam! DC is just as high powered if not more, so there is just as much justification for it being made of styrofoam to! meaning any high-powered unvierse could just be as weak as another universe because of absurd fragility!

Well. Obviously not styrofoam. It's a world made of cardboard.

Also: This fight is actually much less satisfying now that I've been made more aware of this kinda issue from the Man of Steel kerfuffle. Superman absolutely kills people when he puts Darksied through all those buildings. :/

[Anteros]

Because he has it hovering over him at all times just in case he should stumble over darkseid? I was annoyed enough by the iron man ending. Even if I agreed with the outcome, calling in his magic suit like that was kinda lame. But in a death battle batman isnt allowed to run and hide for 15 minutes till his bat drones can drop off his bat power armor from his bat armory. And they also generally try to avoid one offs when it comes to power ups. Thats why joker didnt have mxyzsptlk power against sweet tooth. Its basically the best version of the characters standard load outs. Yeah it doesnt always work out that way, but its how they generally try to do things.

I mean, he's done exactly that before so I don't know what your point is. It's fine to not like the character, but don't just pretend parts of it don't exist as a result.

Also they only ignore one offs that don't support their conclusion. They use one off events for almost every fight.

[S_A_M I AM]

Don't really see how Batman stands a chance against Panther. He's a richer Batman with actual super powers.

He might not be richer than Batman? Obviously it depends on where you look but even with all the slightly ridiculous street level and supertech stuff, he has simultaneously funded two entirely separate space programs with Brother Eye and The Watchtower (at absolutely minimum footed the bill for maintenance on both of them.)

And here is the important part: Hidden all that expenditure within the boarders of his fungible assets and discretionary spending. (Which may or may not be distinct from the company's money. Genuinely not sure.)

That might not be "Small Beyond First World Country" rich but that is absolutely "Country" rich and it's not as though they're both dropping their entire fortunes on stuff.

[Keltest]

From my understanding, a significant amount of Batman's combat ability comes from observation of his opponent and exploitation of predetermined weaknesses, possibly with specialized tools also constructed before hand. Without the opportunity to gain that knowledge and build those devices, Batman becomes unable to compete directly with legitimately super powered beings. In light of that, I think Black Panther takes this one since his usual on-hand gear and tactics are better suited to allow him to fight above his weight class without any extra homework.

[Anteros]

From my understanding, a significant amount of Batman's combat ability comes from observation of his opponent and exploitation of predetermined weaknesses, possibly with specialized tools also constructed before hand. Without the opportunity to gain that knowledge and build those devices, Batman becomes unable to compete directly with legitimately super powered beings. In light of that, I think Black Panther takes this one since his usual on-hand gear and tactics are better suited to allow him to fight above his weight class without any extra homework.

He is good at that, but it's not like he loses to every super powered enemy he runs across. He doesn't lose any more often than someone like Panther the first time he faces someone.

[Keltest]

He is good at that, but it's not like he loses to every super powered enemy he runs across. He doesn't lose any more often than someone like Panther the first time he faces someone.

No, but isn't his suit made out some funky vibranium weave? if it comes down to just comparing their "standard" equipment, I think BP wins.

[Rater202]

No, but isn't his suit made out some funky vibranium weave? if it comes down to just comparing their "standard" equipment, I think BP wins.

Vibranium strands woven into the fabric to create highly durable but lightweight armor, but the claws on his gloves are made from Savage Land vibranium instead of Wakandan vibranium.

Differant impurities in the alloy give it differant properties--Savage Lands vibranium, or Anti-Metal, makes most other metals, up to and including True Adamantium, melt on contact.

[Keltest]

Vibranium strands woven into the fabric to create highly durable but lightweight armor, but the claws on his gloves are made from Savage Land vibranium instead of Wakandan vibranium.

Differant impurities in the alloy give it differant properties--Savage Lands vibranium, or Anti-Metal, makes most other metals, up to and including True Adamantium, melt on contact.

That sounds deeply painful.