Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Mato]

The spiritual connection to the panther god is symbolic(although this is enough to make him count as a Totem for the sake of the Inheritors)

No it's not.

He links to a couple different ones and one of them gives him the memories of every BP before him. I think the one before it allowed him to smell-track people better than Wolverine could and see in the dark and even the ultra violet spectrum. Virtually all of them add a layer of magical resistance and can even supernaturally increase his peak-human limits.

He might not be richer than Batman?

Forbes once ran an article on fictional character wealth and BP was ranked the highest. Also unlike Bruce Wayne his vault is loaded up with magical artifacts he is willing to use.

Which is kind of the deal here. If both are peak-human skill and resources are the tie breaker. Batman has his computer, and probably not Oracle or the Watchtower but T'Challa uses a sheikah slate that can hack and control things like Jarvis. Batman may be called a king of creating specialized gadgets but so are a dozen people in the Marvel universe and T'Challa is one of them. Batman starts with a more real-life stuff of body armor and belt that can only carry so many things on it. T'Challa starts out with an invincible suit, invisibility, teleporters, anti-metal claws, energy robbing boots, and hiding in shadows is meaningless. If both of them start calling for drone-assisted deliveries Batman gets planes and other mechanical/electrical gadgets he has built, T'Challa has the world's most advanced technology and a stock pile of actual physics-ignoring magical items. It's like comparing the crafting range of a D&D expert's to an artificer.

Also, last year BP gained necromancy and can call up and command ghosts (and zombies) to fight for him. I guess the newer authors took his 'king of the dead' title a little too seriously. Plus T'Challa can call 911 for back up, Batman is a criminal but BP is a king that enjoys diplomatic immunity.

[Knaight]

Forbes once ran an article on fictional character wealth and BP was ranked the highest. Also unlike Bruce Wayne his vault is loaded up with magical artifacts he is willing to use.

Forbes does this exact fluff piece pretty much annually, and who shows up in the rankings and what rank they show up in oscillates wildly from year to year. I wouldn't take it particularly seriously.

With that said, BP really is Batman but better in a lot of regards. I suspect Batman will win this though, as DB's standard approach is to find ridiculous outliers, perform math on them poorly, then use those for their standards. There's a lot of Batman animation out there, and animation is excellent for ridiculous outlier hunting, particularly when interpreting obvious stylistic elements literally.

[Traab]

I mean, he's done exactly that before so I don't know what your point is. It's fine to not like the character, but don't just pretend parts of it don't exist as a result.

Also they only ignore one offs that don't support their conclusion. They use one off events for almost every fight.

I get that batman in comic is known for hiding out till he can have the advantage, im pointing out that death battles dont run that way. They tend to be toe to toe slobber knocker fests where the closest thing to batmans style of combat is letting him fade into shadows then jump right back out for a quick ambush attack. There has never been a fight where the guy losing hides somewhere until his backup can arrive. That said, they HAVE shown a tendency to create scenarios where the gear is there anyways. Like the lex/stark fight where it "just happened" to take place in the same vault as his hulkbuster suit. So it isnt impossible for it to happen, just unlikely. For all we know the fight will be setup like this.

/Batman shows up to fight darksied in his super mech armor

"Wait, where is everyone?"
"Sorry bruce, we beat him before you got here, catch you later." /everyone but batman teleports out
/enter BP "Yo, you like like a mechanical menace, lets fight to the death"

[Forum Explorer]

I promise I've got no horse in this race, I'm genuinely just curious about potential answers and it's on-topic for this thread rather than starting a new one.

Are there any advantages, in terms of audience satisfaction or understanding of a work if you're presuming strict or broad parity between the physics of stories? (or in most cases, within stories.)

Don't get me wrong, I get looking for an in-universe consistency ("This person just deadlifted a car but lost an arm wrestling contest to a baby; Wut?") but the way people talk about it always makes it seem like a very, different conversation that I feel like I once got instinctively but are no longer able to put into words.

I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about. Do you mean assuming that the physics of the world roughly matches our own when reading a book? I think it's so the audience has some context to how impressive actions are.

Oh, goody, another Batman fight. They certainly haven't done enough of those.

My thoughts exactly

[Reddish Mage]

Forbes once ran an article on fictional character wealth and BP was ranked the highest. Also unlike Bruce Wayne his vault is loaded up with magical artifacts he is willing to use.

How could anyone be richer than Scrooge McDuck?

Spoiler: Scrooge has more gold than actually exists

Show

[Kitten Champion]

How could anyone be richer than Scrooge McDuck?

Spoiler: Scrooge has more gold than actually exists

Show

You answered your own question, after all - gold must be more plentiful in the Ducktales universe - especially relative to the ridiculously rare Vibranium. BP's Vibranium-laced costume alone probably costs tens of millions just for its raw materials.

[S_A_M I AM]

I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about. Do you mean assuming that the physics of the world roughly matches our own when reading a book? I think it's so the audience has some context to how impressive actions are.

Assuming there is useful information or a formal meaning behind the use of fairly small actions (Cutting the moon in half in Naruto, for example) or that the situations where certain actions are more or less impressive than others isn't defined by the expected difficulty of the feat in real life or some kind of magic internal logic-thing; it's wholly plastic to the narrative.

Forbes once ran an article on fictional character wealth and BP was ranked the highest. Also unlike Bruce Wayne his vault is loaded up with magical artifacts he is willing to use.

Which is kind of the deal here.

Even though I seriously doubt the veracity of any kind of formal analysis of fiction, I can't exactly argue with somebody who does it. Partially because I don't know enough to refute it, partially because it's something that is absolutely going to be fluid (The next time Grant Morrison picks up a Batman book, he's written to be God King of the Universe, owner of the sun and the stars and all of a sudden, he's on top again.) but mostly because basically no fictional character is ever going to out-rich any given space opera character like,
The Thin White Duke Jupiter Jones or The First Sirian Bank.

The way we look at fictional wealth is arbitrary and reductive.

I also expect Black Panther to win this match up, for the record.

But that's also not my point. (I just wanted to remind people that Neil Gaiman writes fanfiction about real-ass people like the wonderful, sticky nerd he is.)

My point was that Batman could be richer because he funds all the ridiculous stuff he spends money on in the edges of his ledger, in secret and possibly from his liquid assets entirely. That's RIDICULOUS and makes his relative expenditure to the total amount of wealth he has arbitrary and probably tiny.

[Keltest]

My point was that Batman could be richer because he funds all the ridiculous stuff he spends money on in the edges of his ledger, in secret and possibly from his liquid assets entirely. That's RIDICULOUS and makes his relative expenditure to the total amount of wealth he has arbitrary and probably tiny.

It could also mean that space station tech is cheap in the DC universe. As I recall, the Watchtower was designed with alien tech as well, meaning the resources needed to make it function aren't necessarily going to be the same as what we need to operate, say, the ISS.

[Traab]

The whole idea behind the watchtower is ludicrously insane. Not only did he buy the materials for it hidden as a line item in his budget. He somehow had it transported to space, built, tested, and setup to basically run itself, without any word of this getting out to anyone anywhere (other than cadmus who seem to know everything) Now, had this been a group project with the league i could buy that. Hiding material costs could be done. But who the heck built it, and how did he get it built without word getting out? How did he do all this while avoiding connecting bruce wayne to batman?

[Mato]

Now, had this been a group project with the league i could buy that.

It was.

It initially used Human, Martian, Kryptonian, Thanagarian technology but other planetary tech has been added like New Genesis and Apokolips. John Stewart designed the currently used one too so maybe there is some traces of Oan design depending on how much he googled from his ring's databank. And it wasn't Bruce Wayne that supplied the materials for the structure, it was Steven Dayton of the Doom Patrol. Cyborg also seems to run the IT department to patch everything together too and as far as sending materials in to space, it's pretty easy when you know a couple people that can lift thousands of tons into space in a few seconds.

Batman probably just furnished the place, and I could imagine that getting pretty expensive but at least it's fairly easy to hide in a budget. Like who is going to notice of Bruce Wayne decides to buy ten thousand light bulbs or a dozen new beds? It sounds like he redecorated the left wing of his mansion to me.

[Devonix]

Batman bankrolling the whole Justice League is really only a thing in the Justice League Animated series. Because really, he isn't even the wealthiest member of the League in most continuities.

Hell there have been whole Batman story arcs about how while Bruce is rich. he goes up against quite a few people who make him look like a pauper.

This is also one of the few times where Preptime would not go well for him. Black Panther is up there with Doctor Doom, Doctor Strange, and Reed Richards in terms of " People you don't want to give time to plan "

[Anteros]

Batman bankrolling the whole Justice League is really only a thing in the Justice League Animated series. Because really, he isn't even the wealthiest member of the League in most continuities.

Hell there have been whole Batman story arcs about how while Bruce is rich. he goes up against quite a few people who make him look like a pauper.

This is also one of the few times where Preptime would not go well for him. Black Panther is up there with Doctor Doom, Doctor Strange, and Reed Richards in terms of " People you don't want to give time to plan "

At the risk of sounding like a fanboy he'd beat everyone on your list with prep time. Maybe not Strange. It depends on if he could hide from his magic. He'd probably have to call in help for him.

[Rater202]

At the risk of sounding like a fanboy he'd beat everyone on your list with prep time. Maybe not Strange. It depends on if he could hide from his magic. He'd probably have to call in help for him.

Except maybe Doom, but only if he switches out with a Doom Bot first.

Of course, Doom is trying to be a good gu and/or steal Tony Stark's identity right now(I'm kind of confused about the Victor Von Iron Man thing) so he might not do that.

On Strange, well, while he's usuallythe most powerful Sorcerer on an Earth that includes people capable of universe-wide reality warping chaos magic when they push, it's notable that he's sometimes limited in certain ways.

In Unbeatable Squirrel Girl Volume 2 #27, Loki(Current Sorcerer Supreme) after a quick check indicates that the Sanctum Santorum's Library doesn't have a single spell for talking to cats, and in an early issue of All-New Wolverine, Strange wasn't able to use a spell to identify why the Sisters(Unpowered clones of X-23) couldn't feel pain or why their life-spans had been so cut short with magic so he just took them to a hospital and gave one of them an MRI. Then he sent them to The Wasp to shrink down and solve the problem becuase he didn't have a "nanobot removal" spell.

[S_A_M I AM]

It could also mean that space station tech is cheap in the DC universe. As I recall, the Watchtower was designed with alien tech as well, meaning the resources needed to make it function aren't necessarily going to be the same as what we need to operate, say, the ISS.

Fair interpretation, particularly given that the advancement, expense and integration of tech is always freaking gonzo.

Batman bankrolling the whole Justice League is really only a thing in the Justice League Animated series. Because really, he isn't even the wealthiest member of the League in most continuities.

Maybe it's just not something I've read but I genuinely thought it was Batman by himself (And even if it's not something he does on is lonesome, that still doesn't cover Brother Eye and probably a bunch of other things.)

Thinking about it: It seems like a clearer idea for most other DC Teams.
Young Justice are presumably pulling from the same pot as Justice League and I know Green Arrow pays for the Justice Society (But not Mister Terrific, for some reason? That had never occured to me before.) while The Outsiders is partially bankrolled by corporate sponsorship, bounties and Batman.

Anybody know about the Titans? Doom Patrol?

At the risk of sounding like a fanboy he'd beat everyone on your list with prep time. Maybe not Strange. It depends on if he could hide from his magic. He'd probably have to call in help for him.

Not calling you a fanboy. Just never been convinced as to how Batman effectively deals with something firing on him from space or beyond visual range or astral space or anything like that.

Prediction: The fight ends when Black Panther calls in the Wakandan National Guard and/ or a small squadron of fighter jets.

[Traab]

I think doom patrol was a government funded group. Not sure though. As for the titans, thats a good question. I mean, I think cyborg has some patents, and its entirely possible robin is working with a trust fund from big daddy b. Or it may be subsidized by the league itself as i think they are at least technically connected to them. Of course, that brings to mind the old titans cartoon where they basically created their own justice league of young heroes, then the bad guys joined forces and captured like 100 costumed heroes, and the league was nowhere to be found. I mean yeah in the end they handled it, but come on. That was a world wide organization of good guys, basically the next generation of the justice league, all obliterated by evil in one fell swoop, and the big league didnt even go "Hey, uh, you guys got this?"

[Keltest]

I think doom patrol was a government funded group. Not sure though. As for the titans, thats a good question. I mean, I think cyborg has some patents, and its entirely possible robin is working with a trust fund from big daddy b. Or it may be subsidized by the league itself as i think they are at least technically connected to them. Of course, that brings to mind the old titans cartoon where they basically created their own justice league of young heroes, then the bad guys joined forces and captured like 100 costumed heroes, and the league was nowhere to be found. I mean yeah in the end they handled it, but come on. That was a world wide organization of good guys, basically the next generation of the justice league, all obliterated by evil in one fell swoop, and the big league didnt even go "Hey, uh, you guys got this?"

From my understanding, the Justice League was not a thing in the old Teen Titans cartoon. Batman was implied from Robin's existence and backstory, but that's it.

[Rater202]

There were legal issues that prevented the use of certain characters in Certain Shows.

Batman wasn't mentioned in Og Teen Titans once, though he was aluded to. "You're not my father--cut to a bunch of bats."

The same issue is why Robin wasn't in The Batman until after Teen Titans ended, resulting in Batgirl being first in that continuity.

[Devonix]

There weren't any legal issues. The idea was basically this. If they had Batman or the League show up they thought everyone would be wondering why they weren't there all the time. It was so that the brands were separate and didn't dillute each other.

[Kitten Champion]

At the risk of sounding like a fanboy he'd beat everyone on your list with prep time. Maybe not Strange. It depends on if he could hide from his magic. He'd probably have to call in help for him.

Eh, give Reed Richards prep time and motivation enough and he can create and destroy worlds.

[Rater202]

Eh, give Reed Richards prep time and motivation enough and he can create and destroy worlds.

Reed Richards got a significant chunk of his money from essentially holding the World Economy hostage with his inventions becuase some of them(like his permanant cure for acne) would topple entire industries overnight if they were released on the free market.

Not only is he a bigger genius and better inventor that Doom, he's also a better Supervillain without even trying.

[Devonix]

Reed Richards got a significant chunk of his money from essentially holding the World Economy hostage with his inventions becuase some of them(like his permanant cure for acne) would topple entire industries overnight if they were released on the free market.

Not only is he a bigger genius and better inventor that Doom, he's also a better Supervillain without even trying.

T'challa's biggest advantage when it comes to a preptime battle his intellect+resources. He's Smart enough to make Bruce look like a gradeschooler and his tech far outpaces anything Bruce has, and that's before tossing magic into t he mix.

[Rater202]

T'challa's biggest advantage when it comes to a preptime battle his intellect+resources. He's Smart enough to make Bruce look like a gradeschooler and his tech far outpaces anything Bruce has, and that's before tossing magic into t he mix.

Something else to consider is that, in general the Tech-Level of the Marvel Universe seems to be somewhat higher than that of theDc universe.

An Issue of Ms. Marvel prior to Civil War II had a Highschool Science conpetition between schools in Manhattan and Jersy.

Kamala's team, a group of average highschoolers, invented flying water for the use of rescue sharks(Sky Shark just looked so freaking happy) and a pocket protable cold fusion generator.

Miles Morales's team invented a device that safely harvests static electricity through the airwaves and converts it to usuable power, which is explciitly cited to have solved the energy crisis.

None of these characters have been cited as being of above average intelligence. A students at most.

So when you get to the "Super Rich guy with Super-Genius Made Super Science" level, Marvel's ones probably outclass Batman by a significant degree.

[HolyDraconus]

Didn't Batman create a virus that turned everyone into Doomsday but under his control and robbed the SpeedForce?

[Lord Raziere]

Didn't Batman create a virus that turned everyone into Doomsday but under his control and robbed the SpeedForce?

Man, at this point, Batman is just a reality warper through sheer fan popularity skyrocketing his power to eleventy billion alone. I'm not even surprised that they went that ridiculous with him. I bet you none of the other DC superheroes are that ridiculously overpoweredly overblown.

[HolyDraconus]

Man, at this point, Batman is just a reality warper through sheer fan popularity skyrocketing his power to eleventy billion alone. I'm not even surprised that they went that ridiculous with him. I bet you none of the other DC superheroes are that ridiculously overpoweredly overblown.

Lol. We are talking about a guy, "human", that literally dodged the undodgeable

[Lord Raziere]

Lol. We are talking about a guy, "human", that literally dodged the undodgeable

Reeeeaaaally? So you'd say he has.....SPIRAL POWER then?

I have now ruined Batman for everyone. Everywhere. Spiral Power is all about determination, holding true to idealism, and creating matter from nothing and doing the impossible. Batman never gives up, never kills anyone and produces any gadget he needs to win from his betl, and has dodged the undodgeable. He is a Spiral Power user. he just does with small gadgets rather than giant mecha. but occasionally given his gadgets, he DOES do with power suits or mecha anyways.

[HolyDraconus]

Reeeeaaaally? So you'd say he has.....SPIRAL POWER then?

I have now ruined Batman for everyone. Everywhere. Spiral Power is all about determination, holding true to idealism, and creating matter from nothing and doing the impossible. Batman never gives up, never kills anyone and produces any gadget he needs to win from his betl, and has dodged the undodgeable. He is a Spiral Power user. he just does with small gadgets rather than giant mecha. but occasionally given his gadgets, he DOES do with power suits or mecha anyways.

Since bats was around longer, as far back as the stone age it seems, if not earlier, how are we certain that it's actually called spiral power and not Bat Power (aka Bat Credit Card)?

[Traab]

Man, at this point, Batman is just a reality warper through sheer fan popularity skyrocketing his power to eleventy billion alone. I'm not even surprised that they went that ridiculous with him. I bet you none of the other DC superheroes are that ridiculously overpoweredly overblown.

Yes... they are. Seriously, every dc character has the moments of absurdity. They may be engulfed in entire libraries of restrictions and such, but flash is literally faster than instant teleportation across the universe. He can evacuate an entire city in mid atomic bomb explosion without anyone getting hurt. Superman can lift infinity and eternity, wonder woman can match him in a surprising number of ways, etc etc etc. Most of this stuff is ret conned, or one shots or alternate whatevers, but they all happened and all can be used to demonstrate how insanely op they are. Its just as easy to cherry pick them being stupidly weak too. How many times has batman been knocked the hell out by HARLEY QUINN?! An unpowered loony former psychologist with a comically oversized mallet has cold cocked batman. And not as some elaborate plan by batman to find the jokers secret base, I just mean flat out beaten.

[Celestia]

I think doom patrol was a government funded group. Not sure though. As for the titans, thats a good question. I mean, I think cyborg has some patents, and its entirely possible robin is working with a trust fund from big daddy b. Or it may be subsidized by the league itself as i think they are at least technically connected to them. Of course, that brings to mind the old titans cartoon where they basically created their own justice league of young heroes, then the bad guys joined forces and captured like 100 costumed heroes, and the league was nowhere to be found. I mean yeah in the end they handled it, but come on. That was a world wide organization of good guys, basically the next generation of the justice league, all obliterated by evil in one fell swoop, and the big league didnt even go "Hey, uh, you guys got this?"

Teen Titans was originally funded by sunken gold and treasure that Aqua Lad dredged up. No joke.

[Forum Explorer]

Assuming there is useful information or a formal meaning behind the use of fairly small actions (Cutting the moon in half in Naruto, for example) or that the situations where certain actions are more or less impressive than others isn't defined by the expected difficulty of the feat in real life or some kind of magic internal logic-thing; it's wholly plastic to the narrative.

I don't understand what your point is.

Reeeeaaaally? So you'd say he has.....SPIRAL POWER then?

I have now ruined Batman for everyone. Everywhere. Spiral Power is all about determination, holding true to idealism, and creating matter from nothing and doing the impossible. Batman never gives up, never kills anyone and produces any gadget he needs to win from his betl, and has dodged the undodgeable. He is a Spiral Power user. he just does with small gadgets rather than giant mecha. but occasionally given his gadgets, he DOES do with power suits or mecha anyways.

Do you mean fixed? Because that's awesome.