Rebalancing Ability Scores for more interesting, less cookie cutter builds

[Greywander]

So something I've noticed is that character optimization has lead to a sort of cookie cutter method of choosing your ability scores. I could make a flow chart, but it basically boils down to this:

• If you're a ranged or light armor martial, DEX is your primary ability score, your spellcasting ability score (if you have one) is secondary, and CON is tertiary. Dump everything else.
• If you're a heavy armor melee martial, same as above but with STR instead of DEX.
• If you're a full caster, your spellcasting ability score is primary, and DEX and CON can fight for second and third place. Dump everything else.

Now, there are specialized builds that buck this trend, but by and large most optimized characters follow these rules. Of course, you could also opt to build a nonoptimized character, but that's not going to be appealing to most folks. The fact is that STR and INT are both seen as unappealing if they're not directly relevant to your class. What I'd like to see is, instead of there merely being one way to optimize, there are several depending on how you spread your ability scores out.

Constitution
Let's start by looking at CON, if only to say that I think CON is fine as-is. CON is already everyone's second or third highest ability score, regardless of anything else about their class. Really, there's little reason not to have a CON of at least 14 in any optimized build, though if you're looking to play more of a skill monkey you might find it acceptable to reduce CON to 12 or 10 in order to raise other ability scores for better skill checks.

Strength and Dexterity
For martial characters the big match up is between STR and DEX. The way 5e has decided to handle these two ability scores has skewed things heavily in favor of DEX, but not so much that STR is universally unappealing. But if you're not a melee warrior in heavy armor, you're most often better off going with DEX over STR.

One simple suggestion is to use your DEX modifier for your weapon attack rolls, while using your STR modifier for the damage roll (even for ranged weapons). Thus, when choosing your ability scores you must choose between damage or accuracy. Now, this might seem to skew things even further in the favor of DEX (but remember that attack rolls also add your proficiency bonus, while damage rolls do not, making DEX less critical to accuracy as your prof bonus rises), so let's also remove the finesse property from all weapons, with the possible exception of one-handed weapons with a damage die of 1d4 (dagger, dart, sling, and whip). We could also introduce a two-handed finesse weapon that deals 1d8 damage. The longsword would be a good nomination for this, as it appears in both the elf racial weapon list and rogue weapon list, who are both commonly DEX based. (Realistically, the longsword is also a good weapon for those lacking strength due to both being quite light (3-ish pounds) and using both hands.) When wielded as a non-finesse weapon, the longsword would behave as normal (one-handed 1d8, versatile 1d10), but as a finesse weapon it would be a two-handed weapon that deals 1d8 damage.

This would limit the viability of a DEX-only build without making it entirely untenable. We could further cut back on the usefulness of DEX while bolstering the usefulness of STR by making finesse weapons use the average of your STR and DEX modifiers instead of only using your DEX mod. We could also make a STR-based mirror of finesse (mighty?), with the club and great club being likely candidates to receive this new trait, thus making STR-only builds possible again (if not ideal).

This does throw a wrench into some of the existing mechanics. Monks and their Martial Arts feature, for example (in this case, monks should probably treat their monk weapons and unarmed strikes as both finesse and mighty. Additional grappling bonuses and possibly the option to use STR instead of DEX for AC would make either STR or DEX monks viable). Also, the restriction on rogues that they must use finesse weapons for sneak attacks would also need to be lifted. And while it makes a lot more sense for a longbow to add bonus damage based on STR, it makes less sense for a crossbow. Crossbows could probably have their damage buffed and instead get no modifier bonus to damage rolls; say 2d4 for the hand crossbow, 2d6 for the light crossbow, and 2d8 for the heavy crossbow. I think this fits as crossbows would be the logical weapon for someone who lacked the strength to draw a bow.

One last thing that might make STR more interesting is increasing the range of thrown weapons and bows (but not crossbows) based on your STR mod.

I'm not sure how to make STR appealing to a full caster, but then I don't know that it needs to be. Certainly I'd like to see the option made viable, but it seems fitting for those who devote themselves to magic full-time to tend toward physical frailty. It gives them a common weakness that can be exploited. We just need more spells and effects that require STR saves.

Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
For martial characters with no spellcasting, the mental ability scores seem to have little appeal. I'm not sure how to make mental ability scores look more interesting and offer more options to a martial character. Maybe just involving them in more out-of-combat ability checks might help.

For casters, though, this becomes a whole different problem. Typically, each caster just boosts whichever they use to cast their spells and dumps the others. But I think casters should have the choice of which ability score to use to cast their spells, and that such a choice should be meaningful and carry different benefits depending on the choice made.

Now, I could say that your spell save DC could be INT mod + WIS mod + CHA mod + Prof bonus instead of 8 + Spell Ability mod + Prof bonus and call it a day. However, that only works for spells that require saving throws, so attack rolls would still have to use only one ability score. It's also slightly better if you somehow manage to boost all three to 20 but only breaks even if you can get them all to 18. I'm not sure what the solution is here except maybe to simply choose one and use that.

However, we can also have each ability score provide some small benefits. Something important to remember is that a typical caster will likely only have one ability score at 20, with the others at maybe 16 or 14, but at the cost of lower DEX or CON. The point is that they can choose which benefit they think is more important and focus on that.

First, I tend to think of an Intelligent character as one who is thoughtful and versatile. They are all about being prepared and having more options open to them.

Intelligence benefit. If you are a spellcaster, you have a number of memory points equal to your Intelligence modifier. As an action, you may select a spell you don't know/have prepared of a level you would be able to cast from your spell list (non wizard) or spellbook (wizard) by spending a number of memory points equal to the spell's level. You now know or have that spell prepared until you finish a long rest, at which point you regain spent memory points.

And yes, I realize this is a huge benefit to spontaneous casters like sorcerers and bards and makes them look a bit more like wizards. Yes, that's the point. A high-Intelligence magic user should look a lot like a wizard. This would, at most, allow you to prepare up to a 5th level spell or as many as five 1st level spells, and even for that you'd need to max out INT at 20. For a sorcerer that's still CHA based, an INT of 14 would allow them to prepare one 2nd level spell or two 1st level spells that they don't know, which is very useful, but also limited in its power.

For Wisdom I'm less certain. I see WIS casters as being more defensive and support casters. So maybe the WIS benefit would look something like this:

Wisdom benefit. When you cast a spell you may choose to grant the target or targets of your spell temporary hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier until the start of your next turn, as well as allowing them to add your Wisdom modifier to one saving throw they make before the start of your next turn. The target gains these benefits after the spell has affected them, and thus can't use these benefits to protect themselves from your spell. Alternatively, when you cast a spell you may grant these benefits to yourself instead of any of your targets.

Basically, you can give a mild buff to allies by casting a spell on them, or a mild buff to yourself by casting a spell on an enemy. Since the benefits only last until the start of your next turn, they are wasted if that ally doesn't take damage or make a saving throw (which means most of the time this benefit will do nothing, but the times it does will be when it counts). Note that you can even do this if you, say, catch an ally in a fireball, although the ally can't use the temp HP or saving throw bonus to defend against the fireball itself, it can at least give them a small buffer afterwards.

I also feel like this would give a support caster something to do aside from spamming a damage cantrip.

For Charisma I feel like this should be more about controlling and manipulating. Illusions and enchantments. So for some reason it makes sense to me that CHA should affect spell saving throws, probably because most control spells are of the "save or suck" variety. But just adding your CHA mod to your spell save DC would be far too strong.

Charisma benefit. When you cast a spell that requires a saving throw from the target or targets, you may change the ability score used for the saving throw for one target. You may do this a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier. Finishing a long rest refreshes your uses of this feature.

This has the potential to be quite powerful, stronger, even, than simply giving them disadvantage on their saving throw. But it does require you to at least have an idea of what a creature's weakest save might be. You can still bungle it up and change it to a save that the target is even stronger in. Still, you can feeblemind a wizard and make it a STR save (probably fluffed as punching them really hard in the head with magic).

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to read this. I'm actually quite exhausted right now, so there may be numerous typos, or this entire post might be rambling or just terrible. Let me know what you think and what ideas you have for encouraging players to spread out their ability scores in ways other than the cookie cutter at the top of this post. (And yes, I realize that you don't have to optimize your character. But I can't help but feel like I'm deliberately crippling myself if I don't.)

[JackPhoenix]

"Let's nerf martials by making them MAD and buff casters by giving them extra benefits from their primary ability score. Also, screw gishes, let's make them even more MAD."

• If you're a ranged or light armor martial, DEX is your primary ability score, your spellcasting ability score (if you have one) is secondary, and CON is tertiary. Dump everything else.
• If you're a heavy armor melee martial, same as above but with STR instead of DEX.
• If you're a full caster, your spellcasting ability score is primary, and DEX and CON can fight for second and third place. Dump everything else.

While you've "solved" the first two problems, if you're full caster, your spellcasting ability score is still primary, with Dex and Con in the second and third place. You'll get extra benefit from your primary score, and nice benefits from other mental scores, while Str and Dex changes don't impact you. Meanwhile, martials need to divide their valuable points between two scores now just to perform as good as before in their intended role, meaning less points for everything else, or being worse at the thing they are supposed to do.

[Greywander]

"Let's nerf martials by making them MAD and buff casters by giving them extra benefits from their primary ability score. Also, screw gishes, let's make them even more MAD."

While you've "solved" the first two problems, if you're full caster, your spellcasting ability score is still primary, with Dex and Con in the second and third place. You'll get extra benefit from your primary score, and nice benefits from other mental scores, while Str and Dex changes don't impact you. Meanwhile, martials need to divide their valuable points between two scores now just to perform as good as before in their intended role, meaning less points for everything else, or being worse at the thing they are supposed to do.

These are fair points. Obviously some balancing work still would need to be done, I'll have to sleep on this. I'm thinking of possible solutions, such as not having a spellcasting ability score at all (spell attacks are just 1d20 + prof bonus, spell save DC is just 8 + prof bonus), but such solutions seems like they might just further upset the delicate balance of the game. It's almost like the designers knew what they were doing and random, sleep deprived nubs shouldn't be trying to change the rules.

[jojo]

So something I've noticed is that character optimization has lead to a sort of cookie cutter method of choosing your ability scores. I could make a flow chart, but it basically boils down to this:

• If you're a ranged or light armor martial, DEX is your primary ability score, your spellcasting ability score (if you have one) is secondary, and CON is tertiary. Dump everything else.
• If you're a heavy armor melee martial, same as above but with STR instead of DEX.
• If you're a full caster, your spellcasting ability score is primary, and DEX and CON can fight for second and third place. Dump everything else.

Now, there are specialized builds that buck this trend, but by and large most optimized characters follow these rules. Of course, you could also opt to build a nonoptimized character, but that's not going to be appealing to most folks. The fact is that STR and INT are both seen as unappealing if they're not directly relevant to your class. What I'd like to see is, instead of there merely being one way to optimize, there are several depending on how you spread your ability scores out...


...Anyway, thank you for taking the time to read this. I'm actually quite exhausted right now, so there may be numerous typos, or this entire post might be rambling or just terrible. Let me know what you think and what ideas you have for encouraging players to spread out their ability scores in ways other than the cookie cutter at the top of this post...

You're making an awfully large number of assumptions OP. Whether those assumptions obtain or not is entirely debatable. Additionally whether or not said assumptions are accurate entirely dependent on the table/campaign you're in.

(And yes, I realize that you don't have to optimize your character. But I can't help but feel like I'm deliberately crippling myself if I don't.)

When you do choose to optimize or min/max your character you run the risk of shutting your character out of large portions of the adventure.

As a player I largely police myself on optimization to make sure I end up with a decent character that can do more than "one thing really well and nothing else"

As a DM I allow players the opportunity to roll for their ability scores, if they roll worse than the "standard array" from the PHB then I allow them to take that instead. I never use the point buy system.

Overall though the system presented in 5E certainly isn't so bad as to merit major alterations.

[Galactkaktus]

Dex vs Strength is not heavily in favor of Dex.
Dex gets higher initiative, better ranged alternative and stealth.
Str gets higher AC, Heavy weapons are all str weapons which does the most damage in combination with great weapon master. And athletics gives you combat options like shove and grapple.

[ad_hoc]

In my experience the best house rules are simple, easy to learn, and easy to implement.

Here are my suggestions:

Dex - Remove bonus to initiative. Initiative becomes a special ability check (like death saving throw is a special saving throw) not attached to any ability.

Int/Cha - Change some Wisdom saving throws to Int or Cha as thematically appropriate.

[Avonar]

Your suggestions really do nothing to change any cookie cutter-ness. Are you using weapons? You'll take good STR and DEX for your attacks, and CON third. Are you a caster? You'll take high INT, WIS and CHA for the saving throws and ignore all physical stats. If anything you have taken away options by making characters need more stats to be high to do their job.

Playing a class that really needs 1 good ability only, Rogues or casters for example, leaves room to build your other stats quite freely to suit the character you have in mind. You'll find characters with good intelligence but low charisma, good wisdom but low dex, high strength, low intelligence etc. You actually find a variety of these.

[Kane0]

Dont forget theres also the option of killing the sacred cow entirely and just doing away with stats.
Boost prof bonus a bit, make heavier use of one-half and one-third prof bonus to relevant rolls and probably rework skills and saves while youre at it to iron out the bigger issues.

[JellyPooga]

I have to wonder why the Int/Wis/Cha benefits are only of any use to spellcasters.

Either make all benefits/changes to ability scores applicable to all Classes, or change nothing. What you have written up, at least for Int/Wis/Cha, should be included as Class Features, not general features of Ability Scores.

Even that considered, I still don't like the changes. The Int bonus is too marginal after about level 5, the Charisma bonus is way too powerful (as if the Int/Cha divide wasn't large enough already) and why would a Warlock or Wizard give their ally temp HP and a Saving Throw bonus for casting Fly or See Invisibility on them for having a decent Wisdom?

[krugaan]

Simple Fix:

Warlocks are int casters, not cha casters.

Initiative is determined by the average of int and dex (round down).

Everything else it not bad. Not every stat can be super important to everyone.

[Unoriginal]

There is nothing to fix here.

Optimized characters are "cookie cuters" because, and it might suprise you, they're optimized. No matter the system, if one choice is determined the best, and one person's goal is to do the best choices, then of course the builds will be similar.

DEX is not more important than STR. Initiative doesn't matter much except for some Rogues, or if you're fighting another PC. Yes you're advised to go DEX if you don't go STR, but one choice is not better than the other, it's just that less classes can pull the STR build efficiently.

And no, mental stats are not superfluous, even if they don't impact your class abilities. Being an unperceptive moron is not a great way to adventure, even if you're a Warlock. As Lucius Threvor showed.

[Galactkaktus]

DEX is not more important than STR. Initiative doesn't matter much except for some Rogues, or if you're fighting another PC. Yes you're advised to go DEX if you don't go STR, but one choice is not better than the other, it's just that less classes can pull the STR build efficiently.

This is true for martials. But not for spellcasters casting a spell before anything else has happened is usally really powerful. So i whould say that initiative is very important just not for martials(Assasin being an exception).

[krugaan]

This is true for martials. But not for spellcasters casting a spell before anything else has happened is usally really powerful. So i whould say that initiative is very important just not for martials(Assasin being an exception).

In a fundamentally turn based game, yes, going first is a rather large advantage.

Plus, you know, you get AC.

This is why dex is such a good stat, even for casters.

[KorvinStarmast]

Warlocks are int casters, not cha casters.

Initiative is determined by the average of int and dex (round down).

Everything else it not bad. Not every stat can be super important to everyone.

Yeah.

In a fundamentally turn based game, yes, going first is a rather large advantage.
Plus, you know, you get AC. This is why dex is such a good stat, even for casters.

A point worth making.

[Aett_Thorn]

My main problems with Str/Dex are:

1) Dex adds to both offense and defense (and initiative). Str only adds to offense.

2) The number of saving throws/skill checks is well disproportionate in Dex's favor. And even some spells/effects that target Str as a saving throw can also target Dex at the player's discretion.

3) Dex is significantly better for out-of-combat uses.

4) Str gets better weapons, but not THAT much better. 2 extra points of damage on average at the expense of a shield or free hand. Str and Shield vs Dex and Shield means that you're both doing the same amount of damage, and in the best armor with a maxed stat, Dex is only 1 AC behind.


Now, there's really no easy way to fix this, but to say that there's not real disparity here isn't really that true, either.

[Unoriginal]

Point is, "several classes benefits from high DEX" doesn't mean "DEX is better". It means "DEX is a worthwhile investment for the classes that benefit from it, while STR is a worthwhile investment for the classes that benefit from it".

I gotta ask, though: in your experience, how much DEX do the Druids/Clerics usually have? Around 14?

3) Dex is significantly better for out-of-combat uses.

What do you mean?

[Sception]

If you want to make more varied stat builds possible, and encourage people to select stats for role playing rather than mechanical reasons, then the solution isn't to make stats in general /more/ important mechanically. Quite the opposite, actually, what you need to do is make them /less/ important, so that a player who spreads their points around isn't hurting critical game play elements like attack bonus, ac, save dc, and hit points.

Make stat mods apply only and exclusively to the following things:

ability checks
skill checks
saving throws

then make sure to make skills from a variety of stats useful, and call saves on stats with infrequently used skills more. And call more group checks, to make the modifiers of characters who don't have the best of a given stat in the party relevant. ie, more strength and con checks and saves in particular.

Maybe call some skill checks on the lower of two stats, so that a player needs balance rather than min-max to be good at things. Like lock picking might be the lower of dex or int, climbing might be the lower of str or con, deception might be the lower of wis or cha, with some variability on the stats used based on character & situation.


The important thing is that attack, ac, damage, save DCs, and hit points should all be tied directly and exclusively to class and/or character level, with no stat input at all. Those mechanics are too heavy, too fundamental to a character's ability to function to tie them to stats if you want players to feel like they have any choice in how those stats are distributed. If these things remain tied to stat mods, then they will always govern characters' stats, not the other way around, and nothing else you do will matter.

[Aett_Thorn]

What do you mean?

Str, out of combat, basically lets you open doors and other stuck objects. Maybe help Intimidate someone if your DM allows the Str check instead of Cha.

Dex, out of combat, allows for sneaking around, acrobatics to get places, and stealing/tricking people


Basically, Dex has some uses in the other pillars of the game. Str has very few.

[Talamare]

Step 1 - Introduce Agility as a Physical Stat, Agility affects Initiative and AC

Step 2 - Dexterity affects Attack Rolls for all classes, including Ranged Spell Attacks

Step 3 - Strength affects Damage Rolls for Physical Attacks

Step 4 - You can have spells learned equal to Half your Level + Half your Intelligence (total not Mod)

Step 5 - Wisdom affects what is used as the Modifier for your Spell Save DC

Step 6.1 - Spell Slots are removed from the game, Spell Levels still exist
Step 6.2 - You can cast a number of spells equal to Level + Charisma (total not Mod)

Step 7 - Primary Casting Stat determines your Spell Damage

Step 8 - Warlock is no longer a "caster"

It's what I would do, but I haven't fully encapsulated the full effects of such changes.

[Sception]

strength actually gets you more places through athletics than dex gets you through acrobatics. climbing and jumping are both under strength, not dex. dex lets you balance along narrow or slippery ledges, sure, but I wouldn't count that as more important than jumping and climging. Of course, by the time you have access to party-wide flight, none of that matters at all.

both strength and dex let you get out of bindings. Dex can pick a lock, or strength can force it. dex resists a ton of attacks, dex saves are super common, but str saves also apply to a bunch of things. dex can apply straight to your ac with light armor, but strength can let you wear heavy armor that's just as good. most of the time.

Honestly, if your party actually uses encumbrance rules, I'd say the two are near close enough to equal, with encumbrance balancing out stealth. But most parties ignore encumbrance ime, so... *shrug*

[LeonBH]

I think that if you're going to play D&D, you have to accept the six ability scores that come with it (even though the divisions are not meaningful). Otherwise, you should take another system that already does what you want D&D to do.

That said, I think Constitution is a silly ability score. It does nothing for anything but HP and Con saves, making it the only passive ability score. You should nix it and merge it into Strength or Dex. It already makes sense that a person with superior physical attributes also has more bodily stamina and resilience. Can you imagine an 8 Con 20 Str character? Or 8 Con 20 Dex character? How did they train their body to that extent with such low Con anyway?

[Sception]

Step 1...

...

It's what I would do, but I haven't fully encapsulated the full effects of such changes.

With all of your fundamental game mechanics tied to stats, optimization will inevitably result in static 'best' stat arrays again. They might be different for different classes, but the fundamental problem - that your characters stats won't really be variable without kicking themselves in the nuts - will remain.

Again, here's the list you actually want:

1) attack bonus, AC, damage, concentration checks, and save DCs are dependent exclusively on proficiency and do not use stat mods at all. adjust proficiency as needed to make the numbers work out.

2) hit points are based entirely on your class levels, and do not use stat mods at all.

3) Give some races/classes an initiative modifier, and otherwise make initiative a straight die roll with no stat modifiers at all.

3) stat mods apply exclusively to saves & skill/ability checks. That's it. Increase the use of enemy attacks that target stats with few or no associated skills, con in particular. Ie, more disease checks, more endurance checks to hostile environment, etc.


honestly, maybe consider removing stats and stat mods from the game except as a role play tool like alignment entirely.

[Talamare]

With all of your fundamental game mechanics tied to stats, optimization will inevitably result in static 'best' stat arrays again. They might be different for different classes, but the fundamental problem - that your characters stats won't really be variable without kicking themselves in the nuts - will remain.

Sounds like you went the complete opposite direction, tho I believe with main the exact best will be a lot more malleable. Since the stats are less dumbable.

A Sorcerer might get higher INT for more Spells or even borderline ignore CHA completely to get very high WIS

[Dudewithknives]

Every time someone has an idea of how to "fix" stat imbalance it always ends up being just a way to make martials need more stats, and casters to need less.

Step 1: Make 9 stats instead of 6. 3 social, 3 mental, 3 physical.

Set them up like a grid.

Physical: Strength Dexterity Constitution

Mental: Intelligence Awareness Wisdom

Social: Presence Charisma Willpower

Offense Defense Health

(I hope that formats correctly)

The column total is your bonus for that category:


Offense total is for Attack and Damage for most classes and more aggressive skills.

Ex. If a Ranger has a 16 str (+3) 12 Int (+1) and 14 Pre (+2) he would add a +6 to his attack and damage with a weapon.


Defense is for your initiative, noticing things, and defensive skills.

Ex. A Sorcerer with a 16 Dex , 12 Awa 18 Cha, would have an initiative of 8 when reacting to things.


Health is the total of your ability to sustain stress either mental or physical.

Ex. Your HP is your HD + total of your Health Bonuses so a Cleric who has 14 con, 16 wis and 16 will would have HP total of 1D8 + 8 each level

Each Class however, gets to use one stat for 2 categories based on their class:

Ex. A barbarian can con instead of cha to find there defense total. A bard can use Cha instead of Str for their offensive total.



Just an idea I am throwing around right now trying to fine tune.

[Unoriginal]

Str, out of combat, basically lets you open doors and other stuck objects. Maybe help Intimidate someone if your DM allows the Str check instead of Cha.

Dex, out of combat, allows for sneaking around, acrobatics to get places, and stealing/tricking people


Basically, Dex has some uses in the other pillars of the game. Str has very few.

You're conveniently forgetting that STR is what you use for carrying equipment, climbing, swimming and jumping.

Good luck trying to "get into places" with acrobatics when you suck at jumping.

Also don't try to downplay how moving things and breaking things are.

[Aett_Thorn]

You're conveniently forgetting that STR is what you use for carrying equipment, climbing, swimming and jumping.

Good luck trying to "get into places" with acrobatics when you suck at jumping.

Also don't try to downplay how moving things and breaking things are.

Two things:

1) I've found that for equipment, the Dex-based characters tend not to have as much to carry, and the bulk of equipment weight comes from armor itself.

2) The number of times, in my experience, that Sneaking alone has come up is much higher than the number of times that we've had to move/break things things

[Grod_The_Giant]

A simple fix would be 4e style "pick one of two Abilities" for class features. Combine that with easier access to heavy armor, or maybe "use Prof or Dex to calculate AC, whichever is higher," or something else to make Dex less important for defense, and maybe removing Ability restrictions on things like Rage and Sneak Attack, and you open up a lot of options. Something like maybe...

Barbarian: Rage damage boost applies to all melee and thrown weapon attacks
Bard: Can cast/gain Inspiration with either Cha or Int
Cleric: Can cast/channel with either Wis or Cha
Druid: Can cast with either Wis or Int
Fighter: No change
Monk: Can use any mental stat for Monk stuff
Paladin: Can cast/channel/aura with either Wis or Cha
Ranger: Can cast with either Wis or Int
Rogue: Can sneak attack with any weapon
Sorcerer: Can cast using either Wis or Cha
Warlock: Can cast using either Cha or Int
Wizard: Can cast using either Int or Wis

You could actually pull Con out entirely, methinks. Use (average HD roll -1) in place of Con for gaining hit points on level-up (ie, d6+2, d8+3, d10+4, d12+5), and make Concentration checks (no longer saves) using your casting stat, and boom! No need for Con.

Dont forget theres also the option of killing the sacred cow entirely and just doing away with stats.
Boost prof bonus a bit, make heavier use of one-half and one-third prof bonus to relevant rolls and probably rework skills and saves while youre at it to iron out the bigger issues.

I've done that. It's not hard; you set Proficiency to scale from +5 to +11, to match the current math for primary abilities, and use half of the new Proficiency in place of isolated ability modifiers (ie, damage) or Proficiency scores (ie, Jack of All Trades). Throw in a "Brawn" ability for raw Str and Con checks, and maybe a "Presence" for raw Cha, and you're pretty much good to go.

[robbie374]

What I'd like to see is, instead of there merely being one way to optimize, there are several depending on how you spread your ability scores out.

What about doing something like this:

Skills:
For each ability, you may have proficiency in a maximum number of skills using that ability equal to your ability modifier.

Initiative:
+ Int + Dex + Wis

Mental Stats:

Spellcasting:

Intelligence. Number of spells known (learn Int per level) or prepared (Int + level)
Wisdom. Add +Wis to healing.
Spell attack = + Prof + Wis + Cha, spell save DC = 8 + Prof + Wis + Cha
Charisma. Add +Cha to damage.

Weapons and AC:

Int +4 = +1 attack, +1 AC (You understand exactly how weapons work best, and how to best avoid them.)
Wis +4 = +1 attack, +1 AC (Your intuition tells you precise moments to strike, and precise moments to dodge.)
Cha +4 = +1 attack, +1 AC (Your force of character causes your enemies to hesitate against your attacks, and to lose their nerve when attacking you.)

Physical Stats:

Weapons:

Weapon Attacks:
Light weapons: + Prof + Dex
Regular weapons: + Prof + Dex (max 3) + Str (max 3)
Heavy weapons: + Prof + Str

Weapon Damage: + Str

Weapons v2:

Weapon Attacks: + Prof + Dex
Heavy Weapons: require min Str +3
Regular weapons: require min Str +1
Light weapons: no minimum

Weapon Damage: + Str

AC:
Use Str and Dex in armor calculation.

	Base	+ Str	+ Dex
Unarmored	10	+ max 0	+ max 4
Light Armor
Padded	11	+ max 0	+ max 4
Leather	11	+ max 0	+ max 4
Studded Leather	12	+ max 0	+ max 4
Medium Armor
Hide	11	+ max 0	+ max 3
Chain Shirt	11	+ max 0	+ max 3
Scale Mail	12	+ max 1	+ max 2
Breastplate	12	+ max 1	+ max 2
Half Plate	13	+ max 2	+ max 2
Heavy Armor
Ring Mail	13	+ max 2	+ max 0
Chain Mail	13	+ max 3	+ max 0
Splint	13	+ max 4	+ max 0
Plate	13	+ max 5	+ max 0

[Unoriginal]

What about doing something like this:
-snip-

Why do that?

[Talamare]

I think that if you're going to play D&D, you have to accept the six ability scores that come with it (even though the divisions are not meaningful). Otherwise, you should take another system that already does what you want D&D to do.

That said, I think Constitution is a silly ability score. It does nothing for anything but HP and Con saves, making it the only passive ability score. You should nix it and merge it into Strength or Dex. It already makes sense that a person with superior physical attributes also has more bodily stamina and resilience. Can you imagine an 8 Con 20 Str character? Or 8 Con 20 Dex character? How did they train their body to that extent with such low Con anyway?

I like that

I wonder if something like that could also be conceived for the Mental Stats