Best way to play Mystic Soul Knife for damage

[ajrockstarr]

I'm looking to create a mystic soul knife but I find with so many options I just get overwhelmed and was hoping the community could help spit-ball some ideas for an optimized or even min/maxed build, currently i'm building for level 5 but this character will likely get used all the way to 20. Im also using a re-write to the mystic class which gives the soul knife a bit more "oomph" if you will, "The Psionic Handbook" created by reddit user zDnD. All builds/optimizations i'm looking for should come from this re-write.

Guide: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2bXgsHg7PtJNXdRdjdaUDhRM2M

[Mortis_Elrod]

honestly i do not like this rewrite of the mystic class and psionics. I understand some of what and why its doing but im not a fan of the lesser and greater discipline break down and alot of the changes from the mystic3UA.


With that said if you were to go back and use the UA pdf instead heres what i would typically build for a level 5 soul knife.

Eladrin (UAsept2017) Soul Knife 5

Disciplines:
Mastery of Force
Brute Force
Mastery of Air

Talents:
Mind Slam
Delusion


And thats about it. Generally just twf and use brute force to do some extra damage (the knock back is best since you use reaction). Generally you'll do best with maxing Dex and then Int. Use Mastery of Force for Inertial Armor (14+dex if unarmored. Can still use shield. 8 hrs. no concent. resist force damage) and also for some out of combat or in combat force power shenanigans. Force choke is pretty good for interrogating without using the mind stuff. Use Mastery of Air for some AOE effects and either flying or cloak of air. Cloak of Air gives your attackers disadvantage, and if they miss you can force them to attack themselves. it lasts 10 minutes and requires concentration. good news is with your better AC and this you'll be had to kill.

Make sure to use Hone the Blade. Important to note that you can go for +4 damage on both soul knives out of the gate. Your psi limit only applies to disciplines, or when specifically mentioned like the wu-jen class.


Mind slam is nice way to make someone pron and delusion gives more out of character options.


Get to 6 asap. after that consider a dip since you have a slow but effective way to get back psi points. Fighter is great dip, shores up alot of weaknesses. gives extra damage too. Rogue is also great adding in some sneak attack. bladesinger is also good option as is ranger or monk. I wouldn't do monk myself but i can see some benefits.

[Jerrykhor]

I am playing one too, started at level 5, now level 8, and also using that same handbook!

Depends on whether your DM allow you to multiclass or not, but mine does not. So if you can, taking levels in Rogue is one way to increase your damage. But honestly, I would not recommend that.

My observation is this: Their damage is decent if you spend the psi points, but you won't be top of the charts if your team has a minmaxer, like mine which has a GWM paladin who rolls a lot of crits. The custom Disciplines for Soulknife is interesting, but none stand out as powerful enough to be must-haves. Will of Blades is not bad for overcoming Psychic resistance, and for having a good Focus. I took Predation for RP reasons, but later dropped it. Its not that great, but I do miss Vanish though.

Go for the usual Psionic Weapon, Psychic Assault/Disruption. My team has a lot of martials, so i took Psy Disruption for the AOE damage, and Distracting Haze is pretty powerful as a Blindness effect with no repeating saves after the first. Mystics has fantastic utility, so don't just focus on damage. Nomadic Mind is stupid good, as is Nomadic Step and Third Eye. If your DM allow you to cast through walls (because mos abilities only require sight), then Third Eye is potentially game breaking with the X-Ray vision, and True Sight being available at level 5 when the spell version is only available at level 11.

[ajrockstarr]

Just as a PSA to everyone, the new handbook is “The Psionic Handbook” by zDnD on reddit version 0.8.2 this is not the guide with lesser and greater disciplines as I too dislike that one.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2bXgsHg7PtJNXdRdjdaUDhRM2M

Guide I’m refdering to^^

[Mortis_Elrod]

Just as a PSA to everyone, the new handbook is “The Psionic Handbook” by zDnD on reddit version 0.8.2 this is not the guide with lesser and greater disciplines as I too dislike that one.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2...XdRdjdaUDhRM2M

Guide I’m refdering to^^

What’s weird about this is that author didn’t change something incredibly op from the original UA but meerly copy/pasted. This being bestial claws having no action cost.

Besides that though this is mostly better. I find it odd that soul knife receives no bonus disciplines when they now have their own disciplines.

After looking over most of the soul knife disciplines and some others, I’ve noticed that a lot of times these abilities don’t work as they should do to wording. Like the spectral throw doesn’t work with soul knives at all because they aren’t thrown weapons and there’s no feature for throwing them. Or how some of these abilities can stack to infinity because no duration is mentioned defaulting to always on.

Honestly gonna nitpick a lot here on these homebrew because it’s really good at a glance but then makes easy to avoid mistakes. Master of Force inertial armor is reduced to 13+Dex which might still be better than wearing armor.



Anyway there’s a lot of options but either fix the wording with your dm or stick to the ones that don’t have these issues. At level 5 you only have 3 disciplines as a soul knife. Displacement is very good and even better when you can use vanishing strike. Not sure on which other two but avoid elemental weapon and spectral throw. Wording makes some questions on how it is suppose to work. I might still say mastery of Force. It’s still great in my eyes.

[Theodoxus]

What’s weird about this is that author didn’t change something incredibly op from the original UA but meerly copy/pasted. This being bestial claws having no action cost.

Besides that though this is mostly better. I find it odd that soul knife receives no bonus disciplines when they now have their own disciplines.

After looking over most of the soul knife disciplines and some others, I’ve noticed that a lot of times these abilities don’t work as they should do to wording. Like the spectral throw doesn’t work with soul knives at all because they aren’t thrown weapons and there’s no feature for throwing them. Or how some of these abilities can stack to infinity because no duration is mentioned defaulting to always on.

Honestly gonna nitpick a lot here on these homebrew because it’s really good at a glance but then makes easy to avoid mistakes. Master of Force inertial armor is reduced to 13+Dex which might still be better than wearing armor.



Anyway there’s a lot of options but either fix the wording with your dm or stick to the ones that don’t have these issues. At level 5 you only have 3 disciplines as a soul knife. Displacement is very good and even better when you can use vanishing strike. Not sure on which other two but avoid elemental weapon and spectral throw. Wording makes some questions on how it is suppose to work. I might still say mastery of Force. It’s still great in my eyes.

I was never concerned with the claws having no action to summon - it's still just a single attack... can you explain the problem?

Spectral Throw specifically calls out that soul knives don't dissipate when thrown... which is literally the only problem with throwing them, so I'm not sure what your issue is...

[Mortis_Elrod]

I was never concerned with the claws having no action to summon - it's still just a single attack... can you explain the problem?

Spectral Throw specifically calls out that soul knives don't dissipate when thrown... which is literally the only problem with throwing them, so I'm not sure what your issue is...

Soul knives are not thrown weapons. Therefore you would throw them as improvised weapons which is 1d4 damage and 20/60 range.

Bestial claws not having an action means you can just keep spending `1 psi point to make an attack. Not having an action is HUGE with psionics since you can keep using them in any combination unlike spells with their limits on spell casting. There's nothing to stop you from unloading 50 psi points to make 50 separate attacks and then continue with the rest of your turn as planned. If you think thats fine remember that each attack if it hits does minimum 1+str mod. that adds up very quickly. The fact is it needs an action cost of some sort, no other attack in the entire game has 0 action cost.

[Theodoxus]

A melee discipline attack is an attack. As in, you get one. How is that 50? Plus it specifies "1d10 slashing" not "1d10 + str mod". You keep reading things that aren't there...

[Mortis_Elrod]

A melee discipline attack is an attack. As in, you get one. How is that 50? Plus it specifies "1d10 slashing" not "1d10 + str mod". You keep reading things that aren't there...

lol what? you dont get one attack. You have 1 Action per turn. If your attack does not spend that action you can attack as many times as you want.

You seem to come from a misconception about how attacking works in 5e. I do see slight difference here from he ua, you made it a discipline attack so no strength mod. but multiple 1d10s is still in order.

If your still confused on this let me break it down further.

You have 1 action per turn.

You can do an Attack action making a single weapon attack against one target.

Extra Attack is a feature that allows you to make an additional attack with this specific action.


You can also use the Cast a Spell action. in which case you follow the rules for spell casting.

Using a Discipline is a separate action from these altogether with its own rules that are stated in that pdf as well as the UA.

When you use a discipline it tells you the action if any that it takes to use much like a spell. If none is listed it does not require an action by default.


Bestial claws doesn't say it costs an action, merely that you make a melee attack instantly. You don't follow the rules of the Attack action since this is an entirely separate thing you are doing.

There is no limit on how many disciplines you can use per turn, only the action economy and your psi points.


All of this together means you can use bestial claws as many different times as you like at any time as long as you have a target and a psi point.



So yes you can make 50 separate attacks that could crit 50 times and then do whatever else you were going to do that turn.

[Theodoxus]

Nope. "Melee Discipline Attack" is the attack action. You might have had a point - or at least might find a gullible DM to concede your point, if Bestial Form had an activation cost with a duration, and you made claw attacks while transformed. But nope - you can only activate a power once per round, just like you can cast a spell once per round. (With the obvious exceptions).

Saying 'because the claws are instantaneous you can make as many attacks as you have power points for', would be akin to saying 'I can cast as many magic missiles in a round as I have spell slots for'. Both are "instantaneous" effects.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Nope. "Melee Discipline Attack" is the attack action. You might have had a point - or at least might find a gullible DM to concede your point, if Bestial Form had an activation cost with a duration, and you made claw attacks while transformed. But nope - you can only activate a power once per round, just like you can cast a spell once per round. (With the obvious exceptions).

Saying 'because the claws are instantaneous you can make as many attacks as you have power points for', would be akin to saying 'I can cast as many magic missiles in a round as I have spell slots for'. Both are "instantaneous" effects.

What are you talking about? Where does it say you can activate a discipline once per round? Where does it say melee discipline attacks require an attack action. Show your work here. You can use the claws, separate times because there is no limit To the amount of times you can use disciplines. Read your own text .



Disciplines also t follow the same rules as spells they have their own separate rules that are explicitly stated on how they work.

Read the rules.

The Attack action is clearly stated in the phb and melee discipline attacks are not the Attack action.

The reason you can’t use magic middles until you have no more slots is because it takes an action to cast the spell. You only have one action per turn.


Just because you make an attack doesn’t mean you are making the Attack action. If you use a discipline you aren’t using the Attack action. The whole thing would be moot if you read the rules and just added in “as action you make a melee discipline attack doing 1d10 slash damage per psi point spent” instead of what it says which again DOESNT STATE AN ACTION COST. Which means it defaults to NONE.

[Theodoxus]

Right... so melee magic spell attacks don't use the attack action either? Great, Mordenkainen's Sword just became f'n OP!

It's right there, in the rules (hint - these aren't my rules).

Melee Discipline Attack is exactly the same as Melee Spell Attack - identical in form and function, just using a different power source. All rules for one cover the other.
Ranged Discipline Attack is exactly the same as Ranged Spell Attack - identical in form and function, just using a different power source. All rules for one cover the other.
Activating a Power is exactly the same as Casting a Spell - identical in form and function, just using a different power source. All rules for one cover the other.

You're creating rules through omission. You should probably stop doing that.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Right... so melee magic spell attacks don't use the attack action either? Great, Mordenkainen's Sword just became f'n OP!

It's right there, in the rules (hint - these aren't my rules).

Melee Discipline Attack is exactly the same as Melee Spell Attack - identical in form and function, just using a different power source. All rules for one cover the other.
Ranged Discipline Attack is exactly the same as Ranged Spell Attack - identical in form and function, just using a different power source. All rules for one cover the other.
Activating a Power is exactly the same as Casting a Spell - identical in form and function, just using a different power source. All rules for one cover the other.

You're creating rules through omission. You should probably stop doing that.

Ok guy. Let me just quote these things for you. Let’s start with Mordenkaines Sword
7th-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a miniature platinum sword with a grip and pommel of copper and zinc, worth 250 gp)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You create a sword-shaped plane of force that hovers within range. It lasts for the duration. When the sword appears, you make a melee spell attack against a target of your choice within 5 feet of the sword. On a hit. the target takes 3d10 force damage. Until the spell ends, you can use a bonus action on each of your turns to move the sword up to 20 feet to a spot you can see and repeat this attack against the same target or a different one.


So at the very top just like any spell it has the casting time. 1 Action. So you can only use this spell once per turn.

Now you will find that every single spell has a Casting time. Usually it’s an Action but sometimes it’s a bonus action or reaction.

Now is you look at your spellcasting section in your phb on page 202 you’ll notice under casting a spell and casting time there’s this text on bonus actions

A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.


So now that we know that every spell has a casting time of at least reaction. We know why we can’t cast misty step and fireball in the same turn.



Now let’s look at Disciplines and see if if they have the same text or any text that says that disciplines act exactly like spells or failing both of these the rules on disciplines and their use.



Oh wow so no text about bonus actions and such, no text on saying disciplines use the same rules as spells except for targeting and area of affects. And look at that it even tells us the page from the phb to look for. Let’s double back and see if anything else does that....nope. So must work as it says here.

Look what I found at the end of effects options and psi points.

“Each effect notes specific information about its effect, including any action required to use it and it’s range. “

Ok so if that’s the case then if something says it takes the Action to use it will say so in the effect. And there is nothing stating disciplines and spells use the same rules we don’t have to worry about that bonus action rule. so now we look at Bestial Claws.

Strange the word action is actually missing. It mentions you make a melee discipline attack but it looks like it doesn’t require an action and the effect is instantaneous. So the effect boils down to: spend a psi point to make a melee discipline attack no action required.

And if you think you are taking the attack action you are wrong.
The Attack action is specific in what it does and is a separate type of action than spells and disciplines alike. Just because it’s an attack that doesn’t mean it’s the Attack action. Only when an ability says it’s the Attack action is it actually the Attack action.

If this were not the case anytime you made an attack you could extra attack, which oh look is an attack so keep going forever. This is why you can’t extra attack with booming blade or two weapon fighting with booming blade.

TL;DR Disciplines aren’t spells. attacks aren’t always the Attack action and nothing stops you from using bestial claws besides the psi point cost

[X3r4ph]

Pretty sure Mearls or Crawford cleared this up a while ago.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Pretty sure Mearls or Crawford cleared this up a while ago.

I don’t remember them doing it. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they said “by the way that’s suppose to cost an Action our bad”