Experiement: Maximising Breatha ttacks without being a Dragon?

[GrayDeath]

As the title says: What is the best way to get as many metabreath feats (and of course a basic breath attack worth it) without one actually being a "full Dragon?

Lets assume one wants to minimize LA, and make sure the basic race/Template combo is something most DM`s will allow?

Not looking for an otherwise optimized character. Mind, competent and not a total one trick poony yes, but thats enough.


Full builds appreciated, but not required.

Thanks in advance!

[gkathellar]

Dragonfire Adept, full stop.

[ShurikVch]

As the title says: What is the best way to get as many metabreath feats (and of course a basic breath attack worth it) without one actually being a "full Dragon?

Does Half-Dragon count as "full Dragon", or not?

Dragonfire Adept, full stop.

Dragonfire Adept, "as is", doesn't qualify for [metabreath] feats; you will need Power Surge feat (Dragon #313)

[Remuko]

Does Half-Dragon count as "full Dragon", or not?


Dragonfire Adept, "as is", doesn't qualify for [metabreath] feats; you will need Power Surge feat (Dragon #313)

doesnt your half dragon suggestion also need a feat to qualify as they dont have a breath weapon with a cooldown expressed in rounds normally?

[Crow_Nightfeath]

The dragon shaman class PHB2 gives a breath weapon that you can use every 1d4 rounds, the damage increases every 2 levels starting at lv 4, deals d6's

[ShurikVch]

doesnt your half dragon suggestion also need a feat to qualify as they dont have a breath weapon with a cooldown expressed in rounds normally?

Yes, they need it
I mentioned it, because Half-Dragons have access to some types of Breath Weapon which are unavailable to Dragonfire Adept

[Vizzerdrix]

Isnt their a feat that gives things with the draconic template a breath weapon?

[GrayDeath]

Well, so far the responses aside from Dragon Shaman (which only starts to get one at Level 4) seem to confirm my assumption that a Dragonborn Fighter might be best (lots of Feats for metabreath). Especially given it offers a free switching of Elements.

If that is so, or does the Dragon Shamans Breath Weapon maybe stack with being Dragonborn? in that case mixing it with 2-4 Fighter Levels might be what I am looking for....

[WhamBamSam]

The best thing for breath blasters is the Ravening Dragon Psychosis in Dragon 313, which is restricted to not just dragons, but True Dragons. Many other useful things in breath weapon optimization do work for non-dragons however.

The Crown of the North Wind from Dragons of Faerun lets you turn elemental breath weapons into the corresponding status effect breath weapons of metallic dragons. It also treats your age as Young for all effects related to age (including damage), so if you're getting your breath weapons from, say, Dragon Wild Shape, it can be handy in that regard as well.

If you're willing to go for a more castery approach, the Spell Compendium updated versions of the breath spells (Dispelling Breath is particularly snazzy) are personal range and hence can be persisted. The spell Firestride Exhalation in Dragon Magic is also interesting in that it explicitly produces a breath weapon, so if you have something that works with breath weapons, it'll work with Firestride Exhalation too. The Wyrms of the North Dragon Magazine series (which WotC posted as web articles as well) have some cool spells as well in Breathbarb, Breathball, and Breathdoom. Due to their long durations, Breathbarb and Breathdoom also make for handy ways of storing breath weapons that have been souped up with metabreath feats, breath spells, or the like beyond what might ordinarily be practical.

If you can't use Power Surge, a DFA can also qualify for metabreath feats by becoming a Heart Aspect Dragonborn, as it gives a breath weapon with a recharge time in rounds.

EDIT: The Dragon Breath feat in Races of the Dragon makes a Half-Dragon's breath weapon every 1d4 rounds just like a real dragon, and hence allows for metabreath feats.

[Thurbane]

I think the usual combo is Dragonfire Adept with the Dragonborn template.This allows you to qualify for metabreath feats while also having an every-round breath weapon.

[ViperMagnum357]

Thrall of Baphomet from Dragon #341. 10 levels, so you can continue into an Epic progression where it comes into its own. At level 10, your breath weapon -a line of Acid, Cold, or Fire chosen when taking the class-is usable every 1d4 rounds, which can can modified by any metabreath feat, and follows a good DC progression; 10 + Class level + Con modifier. Now, at level 10 in the class, it is only a 50ft line and 10d6 damage-but once you get into epic and take the progression, it increases by 1d6 damage, +1 Save DC and gets 5ft longer per level-75ft and 15d6 at level 25, 20d6 and 100ft at level 30, etc. Having to wait to low epic to really get your money's worth is a drag, but it is by far the best breath weapon damage advancement available-even True Dragons only get 2 damage dice every 3 RHD, and DC is only 10 + Con modifier + 1/2 HD.

The class is a decent beatstick otherwise-Full BAB and D12 HD; Fiendish Animal Companion with no adjustment, as a Druid of twice your class level; Maze as an SLA 3/day; and the Capstone is a +4 natural increase to your choice of Str, Dex, or Con.

[GrayDeath]

I think the usual combo is Dragonfire Adept with the Dragonborn template.This allows you to qualify for metabreath feats while also having an every-round breath weapon.

But do they stack? Because being able to metabreath different Breathweapons of mediocre Damage is ... not really all that great.

So: Do I get a combined progression of the Dragonborn and Shaman if so, its what I was looking for. if not, do you know of a way to boost an existing Breath Weapon without feats/few feats (as Iw ant enough metabreath to get Lingering, make it larger, and so on...).



@ Viper: Sorry, Epic is totally outside the area I am interested in. We usually stop between Level 14 and 16, 20 at the latest so far still not a single Epic group...ever...).

[WhamBamSam]

But do they stack? Because being able to metabreath different Breathweapons of mediocre Damage is ... not really all that great..

They don't, but that's not the point. You don't need for a breath weapon to have a recharge time in rounds in order to apply a metabreath feat to it, just to qualify for metabreath feats in the first place. So you go Dragonborn DFA 20, and apply the metabreath feats to your DFA breath weapon.

The only breath weapon I know of that stacks with a preexisting one is that of the Dragon Samurai prestige class. The 1/day limitation is obnoxious though.

[Menzath]

I must say I am surprised a dragborn druid with draconic wildshape never popped up. Especially if you add in master of many forms or warshaper to extend the use of those wildshapes. I mean, if that's your thing.

Also surprised a master transmogrifist build was never mentioned. I mean what's scarier than a big dragon? How about one with 12 heads?

[WhamBamSam]

I must say I am surprised a dragborn druid with draconic wildshape never popped up. Especially if you add in master of many forms or warshaper to extend the use of those wildshapes. I mean, if that's your thing.

Also surprised a master transmogrifist build was never mentioned. I mean what's scarier than a big dragon? How about one with 12 heads?

I mentioned Dragon Wild Shape as a source of breath weapons that would benefit from a Crown of the Northwind.

Breath weapons are (Su) so you need something besides Master Transmogrifist to get them. A Kalashtar with Metamorphic Transfer would do the trick. I actually don't see how Master Transmogrifist actually accomplishes anything. A permissive reading of Infinite Variety might allow you to get the extra heads by choosing a hydra or something as a second form, but you probably can't use those extra heads for breath weapons.

[Menzath]

I mentioned Dragon Wild Shape as a source of breath weapons that would benefit from a Crown of the Northwind.

Breath weapons are (Su) so you need something besides Master Transmogrifist to get them. A Kalashtar with Metamorphic Transfer would do the trick. I actually don't see how Master Transmogrifist actually accomplishes anything. A permissive reading of Infinite Variety might allow you to get the extra heads by choosing a hydra or something as a second form, but you probably can't use those extra heads for breath weapons.

Yeah you would need the feat supernatural transformation, or tricks to get 9ths for shapechange.

And as for the 12 heads thing, if you read the example, of getting the octopus legs, if you gained a hydras twelve bite attacks, it would actually give you that many heads, and from the reading of pyro and cyro hydras, each head can use it's breath weapon separately.

I mean at worst you would just have to do the reverse and start as a hydra and get a dragons breath weapon.

[WhamBamSam]

Yeah you would need the feat supernatural transformation, or tricks to get 9ths for shapechange.

And as for the 12 heads thing, if you read the example, of getting the octopus legs, if you gained a hydras twelve bite attacks, it would actually give you that many heads, and from the reading of pyro and cyro hydras, each head can use it's breath weapon separately.

I mean at worst you would just have to do the reverse and start as a hydra and get a dragons breath weapon.

How does Supernatural Transformation help?

I don't think that works. My reading is that you get the bites and nothing else. The thing about being able to breathe out of each head doesn't appear to be directly connected.

I also don't think you can use Metamorphic Transfer/Assume Supernatural Ability to gain Supernatural abilities of the secondary creature. You aren't actually assuming the form of the secondary creature per the wording of Infinite Variety, just gaining a few specific traits, so the feats don't work.

[Menzath]

How does Supernatural Transformation help?

I don't think that works. My reading is that you get the bites and nothing else. The thing about being able to breathe out of each head doesn't appear to be directly connected.

I also don't think you can use Metamorphic Transfer/Assume Supernatural Ability to gain Supernatural abilities of the secondary creature. You aren't actually assuming the form of the secondary creature per the wording of Infinite Variety, just gaining a few specific traits, so the feats don't work.

Sorry my mind was fried at work today, I meant assume supernatural ability and not supernatural transformation.
And you are right, the wording of infinite variety does not let us get an (su) ability from a secondary form even if we have a way to access it.

And as for the multi-headed part, I would go with the multi-headed creature template(savage species) setting precedent that each head gains the breath weapon.

Special Attacks: If the base creature has a breath
weapon, the extra heads also have breath weapons. All
weapons activate on the same round but can aim in differ-
ent directions. This rule also applies if the base creature has
a spit, spray, ray, or cone attack, so long as that attack comes
from the head. A multiheaded creature does not gain extra
gaze attacks, fear auras, and the like for its additional heads.

[WhamBamSam]

And as for the multi-headed part, I would go with the multi-headed creature template(savage species) setting precedent that each head gains the breath weapon.

I would argue that's a particular feature of the template, rather than a general trait of creatures with more than one head. As an example, Chimeras do not get a breath weapon from each head.

[Menzath]

I would argue that's a particular feature of the template, rather than a general trait of creatures with more than one head. As an example, Chimeras do not get a breath weapon from each head.

I would argue that chimera are the exception, even though they have multiple heads, the heads are not exactly the "same". They each have a different damage method unlike other multi-headed creatures.

And the multi-headed template in savage species seems to be partially based off of hydras anyways.

[ShurikVch]

Some more notes for various Breath Weapons
(level oriented on this line ↓)

We usually stop between Level 14 and 16

On 16th level, Dragonborn with Heart Draconic Aspect will do 6d8 BW damage
Dragonfire Adept - 7d6
Dragon Shaman - 8d6
Druid's Aspect of the Dragon ACF - 8d6 too

(For comparison) Dragon monstrous classes:
Chromatic (Dragon #332)
Black - 8d4
Blue - 5d8
Green - 6d6
Red - 5d10
White - 4d6
Metallic (Dragon #320)
Brass - 4d6
Bronze - 5d6
Copper - 6d4
Gold - 4d10
Silver - 5d8

Firestorm Berserker PrC (Dragon #314) gets Breath Fire at 3rd level (around 11 ECL), which is cone of fire, and do 3d6+Con mod. damage

BW from the Metabolic Fire graft do 6d8 damage

Dragon Breath spell (Spell Compendium) will do 8d8 at CL 16

Incarnate with Winter Mask on Throat chakra and Expanded Soulmeld Capacity may do 12d6 cold damage
(Also, Gorgon Mask may give you petrifying BW)

For a Binder, you may do 16d6 as line of fire (Amon) or cone of whirlwind (Orthos)

Diamond Dragon PrC - by using Overchannel to the max, and spending 19 pp, you may cause 19d8 damage as cone of cold, 19d6 - as line of electricity, 19d8 - as cone of fire, or 19d4 - as cone of sonic

[Vizzerdrix]

So along the lines of this topic, is their a way for a level 1 barbarian to gain a breath attack? Got a friend starting his first 3.5 game in a while and he wants a barbarian with a breath weapon. I might be able to convince the DM to allow him a LA or two, or a pact with an elder evil for an extra feat.

[WhamBamSam]

So along the lines of this topic, is their a way for a level 1 barbarian to gain a breath attack? Got a friend starting his first 3.5 game in a while and he wants a barbarian with a breath weapon. I might be able to convince the DM to allow him a LA or two, or a pact with an elder evil for an extra feat.

A Heart Aspect Dragonborn gets its breath weapon at 1st level, though at that point it's only 5ft long.

[ViperMagnum357]

Some more notes for various Breath Weapons
(level oriented on this line ↓)
On 16th level, Dragonborn with Heart Draconic Aspect will do 6d8 BW damage
Dragonfire Adept - 7d6
Dragon Shaman - 8d6
Druid's Aspect of the Dragon ACF - 8d6 too

(For comparison) Dragon monstrous classes:
Chromatic (Dragon #332)
Black - 8d4
Blue - 5d8
Green - 6d6
Red - 5d10
White - 4d6
Metallic (Dragon #320)
Brass - 4d6
Bronze - 5d6
Copper - 6d4
Gold - 4d10
Silver - 5d8

Firestorm Berserker PrC (Dragon #314) gets Breath Fire at 3rd level (around 11 ECL), which is cone of fire, and do 3d6+Con mod. damage

BW from the Metabolic Fire graft do 6d8 damage

Dragon Breath spell (Spell Compendium) will do 8d8 at CL 16

Incarnate with Winter Mask on Throat chakra and Expanded Soulmeld Capacity may do 12d6 cold damage
(Also, Gorgon Mask may give you petrifying BW)

For a Binder, you may do 16d6 as line of fire (Amon) or cone of whirlwind (Orthos)

Diamond Dragon PrC - by using Overchannel to the max, and spending 19 pp, you may cause 19d8 damage as cone of cold, 19d6 - as line of electricity, 19d8 - as cone of fire, or 19d4 - as cone of sonic

Entering at level 6, Thrall of Baphomet can hit its capstone at level 10 by ECL 16 without early entry and have a 1d4 round recharge for 10d6 damage-not quite as impressive, but you can do it all day long, and more often than a Binder.