When "should" Hexblade stop using Hex?

[HermanTheWize]

What's your opinion on when a Hexblade/Pact of the blade Warlock should stop using the Hex spell? Or should they never stop?


And I mean in general, there is always the possibility of a situation where using it still will come up the best answer.

[LeonBH]

They should never stop using Hex, unless they want to use a different concentration-based build, like a Darkness/Devil's Sight combo.

[Mikal]

What's your opinion on when a Hexblade/Pact of the blade Warlock should stop using the Hex spell? Or should they never stop?


And I mean in general, there is always the possibility of a situation where using it still will come up the best answer.

When another concentration spell provides more of a benefit.
For me as a Hexblade, that's usually on/around level 3 or level 7, when I can get advantage with Darkness and Devil's Sight or Shadows of Moil.

I might use Hex once in awhile with Darkness, if Darkness wouldn't be a good idea due to the tactical/strategic situation, but once I'm able to use Shadows of Moil it's just more useful to have a superior version of Greater Invisibility and all the bonuses it provides.

Advantage alone when combined with GWM damage makes Hex pale in comparison, even with Hex's extended duration.

[Asmotherion]

Never. Hex is a great spell, and stacks greatly with his curse.

On the other hand, Hexblade's curse does give you the option of "not considering Hex the ONLY thing worth your concentration slot for the whole game", as you tend to find yourself when playing other Warlock builds. It relaxes your shoulders a bit from the "extra weight", knowing that you can effectivelly use Levitate for example, or Elemental Weapon, without destroying your DPT when the duration runs off and you won't have a short rest 'till next session.

I also find the combination of Hex+Hexblade's Curse+Bestow Curse very Flavorfull, if you're willing to go down that path. Unfortunatelly, Sign of Ill Omen limits you to Once per Long rest, so unless you multiclass, that's your limit.

[Zalabim]

If I'm playing a melee-specialized pact of the blade warlock, I'd 'stop' using hex at level 1. I'd prefer to use my spell slots on things that give me a better return on investment when I'm intentionally putting myself in position to get smacked around. There's too much of a chance of Hex getting wasted. That's certainly been my experience playing a Ranger.

[HermanTheWize]

It feels like at some point a around 5th level, a +d6 damage just doesn't stack up to the effects a 3rd level(let alone a 4th or 5th level) spell can really do. The big pull for me is that it lasts 8 hours...which might as well be all day.

The level control/utility/damage the higher level spells give are not something to snear at.


I'm not saying Hex is useless, the disadvantage to ability checks is always pretty cool and 8 hours makes it "always on" pretty much. And a huge negative is you can say goodbye to 90% of your bonus actions, though Warlocks don't have much to do with anyway(well, other than polearm masters). Though it directly competes with Hexblade's Curse, taking two rounds to set up the combo.

...and it just adds more, I do this one thing every round to the class.

[ad_hoc]

5th level.

Hex is a very weak 3rd level spell.

As a Hexblade I would probably never use it. I want my bonus action for Curse and I can save my spell slots for something more useful.

[Easy_Lee]

5th level.

Hex is a very weak 3rd level spell.

As a Hexblade I would probably never use it. I want my bonus action for Curse and I can save my spell slots for something more useful.

It does look pretty weak when compared to Thunder Step or Hypnotic Pattern.

[Vaz]

It's not +d6 damage. Let's say you have 3 5 round combats. That's 15 rounds of combat. 2 attacks each round, potentially 3 or even 4 with Bonus Action or Reaction attacks. That's straight up 30-60d6 damage, and that's not including Crits.

[MrBig]

When another concentration spell provides more of a benefit.
For me as a Hexblade, that's usually on/around level 3 or level 7, when I can get advantage with Darkness and Devil's Sight or Shadows of Moil.

I might use Hex once in awhile with Darkness, if Darkness wouldn't be a good idea due to the tactical/strategic situation, but once I'm able to use Shadows of Moil it's just more useful to have a superior version of Greater Invisibility and all the bonuses it provides.

Advantage alone when combined with GWM damage makes Hex pale in comparison, even with Hex's extended duration.

When I ran the numbers for Hex vs Darkness (ADV) using Eldritch Blast, it was heavily dependent on the target AC, and what your CHA and PROF bonuses were.

e.g. at low levels, with a target of AC 15 or less, Hex did more damage. For AC > 15, Darkness was better.
At higher levels, the breakpoint was ~ AC19.

[ad_hoc]

It's not +d6 damage. Let's say you have 3 5 round combats. That's 15 rounds of combat. 2 attacks each round, potentially 3 or even 4 with Bonus Action or Reaction attacks. That's straight up 30-60d6 damage, and that's not including Crits.

You're assuming you never lose your concentration.

I contend that if the battles are easy enough that you never need to worry about concentration then you never needed Hex.

If they are difficult then Hex isn't enough.

The Warlock shines at being able to drop huge spells to turn the tides of combat. Hex removes one of those slots as well as the ability to cast concentration spells.

[Laserlight]

I enjoyed using Darkness more. Being able to attack with advantage, move away without provoking OA because they can't see me, and impose disadvantage when they attack, was more useful. Sucks that Darkness doesn't have an upcast for longer duration, but if you dip a caster class (Shadow Sorc, perhaps?) that should ameliorate the problem.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

When you have a better concentration spell: Like Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, or Fear.

[prototype00]

Same as all the others, it’s a value judgement based on whether your concentration is worth it on Hex.

For example: In the AL game that I’m playing, I actually kept Hex up to 3rd level and switched it out at 4th. At 3rd it was still generating good damage for my PAM Hexblade, but when I hit 4th and got a feat (GWM) suddenly Darkness + Devil’s Sight became the superior damage dealer.

At 3rd, I could have started using Darkness and stopped using Hex, but the Advantage from it didn’t generate damage, with GWM at 4th it did.

[Dalebert]

Hex makes more sense when you're dipping lock and get more spell slots from sorcerer (for example). I use a sorc 1st level slot on it to just boost my dmg for a combat. Then I don't mind so much when I cast another concentration spell later. I would no longer waste a high level spell slot on it.

[HermanTheWize]

It just seems like with some thought, higher level spells blow it out of the water. I think it would be good if you had a slot left for a big baddy and just wanted something simple up. Prefect for disadvantage to strength checks for your grappling buddies.

I think I'd probably keep it do to the disadvantage to ability check. You can pull a lot of shenanigans with that.

[Sception]

In general, I think it's no longer the best concentration spell for hexblades starting at third level when they can cast darkness. If for some reason you don't like to cast darkness - like, maybe your campaign plays through a lot of cramped dungeon crawls where you'd be getting in your party's way, or maybe you're playing a conquest multiclass who wants her enemies to be able to see her, then it could last a bit longer, but by the time you hit third level spells, yeah, it's looking pretty weak.

A possible exception is if you have the 'Relentless Hex' invocation, in which case the Hex spell is less about the damage and more about at-will minor action teleporting to stay on slippery targets in encounters where you don't have hexblade's curse available to trigger it.

[samcifer]

If you're using Eldritch Blast at all (esp with Agonizing Blast EE), I recommend keeping Hex as the damage applies to each ray and the damage can really add up.

[Tanarii]

If you're using Eldritch Blast at all (esp with Agonizing Blast EE), I recommend keeping Hex as the damage applies to each ray and the damage can really add up.

That's the key really. For example, if you're fighting 3xDeadly battles a day, dropping 2 spells each one out of a 5-6 round combat (15-18 rounds total), it's probably not worth it.

If you're fighting 12xEasy battles a day, using 1 spell every other fight, with each combat going 2-3 rounds (24-36 rounds total), then an all day Hex is totally worth it. In fact, in that kind of day you might even focus on using your spells for non-combat things, since Hex-EB-AB "archer" is sufficient to handle each individual fight, and you're far more likely to maintain concentration across multiple fights.

Personally I see most of my players stop using is in Tier 2. Some keep it on their spells known list just in case.

[samcifer]

That's the key really. For example, if you're fighting 3xDeadly battles a day, dropping 2 spells each one out of a 5-6 round combat (15-18 rounds total), it's probably not worth it.

If you're fighting 12xEasy battles a day, using 1 spell every other fight, with each combat going 2-3 rounds (24-36 rounds total), then an all day Hex is totally worth it. In fact, in that kind of day you might even focus on using your spells for non-combat things, since Hex-EB-AB "archer" is sufficient to handle each individual fight, and you're far more likely to maintain concentration across multiple fights.

Personally I see most of my players stop using is in Tier 2. Some keep it on their spells known list just in case.

What levels are for each tier?

[ad_hoc]

If you're fighting 12xEasy battles a day, using 1 spell every other fight, with each combat going 2-3 rounds (24-36 rounds total), then an all day Hex is totally worth it.

This is the only scenario I think it is worth it (past the first few levels).

This is the classic zombie encroachment. Wave after wave of weak enemy where it is easy to hide to avoid being attacked and where sustained damage is key.

Otherwise it is far more valuable to cast a big spell and disrupt the enemy on round 1. Hex adds very little to round 1 which is when it is most worthwhile to take out enemies. It's very easy to get steamrolled in a medium-hard encounter.

In other words: 1 big spell on r1 followed by cantrips is stronger than cantrips on all rounds with extra damage. Further, Hex is only likely to last 8 hours if all of the fights are easy. It's easy for Hex to be dropped in the first 1-3 rounds of the first combat.

[Sception]

I agree with most of the comments against hex, but I'm not sure how common dropping it should really be. I mean, at the very least, you'll be picking up resilient con at some point, yeah? How often should you be dropping concentration, even in harder fights?

Maybe the fact that my hexblades are always taking 6 or more levels of paladin is skewing my perception, here.

[HermanTheWize]

If you're using Eldritch Blast at all (esp with Agonizing Blast EE), I recommend keeping Hex as the damage applies to each ray and the damage can really add up.

I'll give you that one.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

A VHuman might never use Hex. Bonus Feat at level 1 can be PAM, for a good bonus action without need for spell or concentration. That seems better.

Anyway,

Ken

[Tanarii]

What levels are for each tier?

Tier 1 = 1-4
Tier 2 = 5-10
Tier 3 = 11-16
Tier 4 = 17-20

You'll notice that the bottom of each tier is when you get a massive boost in power from your class features. That's intentional. (Assuming you don't mess that up by multiclassing.)

Each Tier also has recommended scope / scale for adventures too. Local / kingdom / continent or world / multiverse. (Although I personally prefer the old-school BECMI way: dungeon / wilderness / ruling / planar.)

[Vaz]

Hi,

A VHuman might never use Hex. Bonus Feat at level 1 can be PAM, for a good bonus action without need for spell or concentration. That seems better.

Anyway,

Ken

You have 90ft range on PAM?

[Mikal]

You have 90ft range on PAM?

A melee oriented hexblade might decide better uses of their slots at low level would be to use shield to protect themselves from hits that could one shot them, or for temp hp via armor of agathys.

And has been shown melee warlocks have lots of other concentration spells that can provide more utility and power for them starting at level 2.

Or should all melee characters also get sharpshooter since their melee weapons don't have 90ft ranges either?

And remember the OP is talking about a hexblade blade pact warlock so unless he's going bowblade he is melee oriented...

[LeonBH]

If he picks up Improved Pact Weapon, he could be ranged.

[Mikal]

If he picks up Improved Pact Weapon, he could be ranged.

Hence my bowblade comment.
Now I want to play an archer with a bladed bow.

[Vaz]

A melee oriented hexblade might decide better uses of their slots at low level would be to use shield to protect themselves from hits that could one shot them, or for temp hp via armor of agathys.

And has been shown melee warlocks have lots of other concentration spells that can provide more utility and power for them starting at level 2.

Or should all melee characters also get sharpshooter since their melee weapons don't have 90ft ranges either?

And remember the OP is talking about a hexblade blade pact warlock so unless he's going bowblade he is melee oriented...

Considering that it was talking about the action economy, sure, you feel free to ignore that and make your own argument.