Swarm PC

[Malapterus]

Any thoughts on a character who is a swarm?

I've always thought a Hellwasp Swarm could be an interesting race to base your character off if.

Libris Mortis has some kind of swarm-shifter template but that seems lengthy to get to.

Any other ideas?

[stack]

Pathfinder 3pp Spheres of Power has an option for turning into a swarm via the Alteration sphere. While that is a limited duration effect (minutes per level unless you have class features extending it, such as the shifter class), the basic mechanics ought to be sound for creating an at-will ability.

I don't know off the top of my head if swarm mechanics vary significantly between PF and 3.5.

[Segev]

Playing as a Shimmerling Swarm (from MMIII) has always been an amusing notion to me.

[Necroticplague]

Any thoughts on a character who is a swarm?

I've always thought a Hellwasp Swarm could be an interesting race to base your character off if.

Libris Mortis has some kind of swarm-shifter template but that seems lengthy to get to.

Any other ideas?

Swarms are technically a single creature, so Wild Shape can let you turn into a swarm. Hellwasp swarms would be unavailable barring Planar Shepherd, though.

Theres also the silithar, but last I checked, the ECl for that was prohibitively expensive.

You can also use Lycanthrope template to make your creature a were-swarm for Animal swarms (like rats and ravens). Size restrictions might make this somewhat hard to do, though.

[stack]

I recall some crazy forum build using dread blossom swarms and a symbiote template. Searching for dread blossom swarm might turn it up.

Or I could recall the name incorrectly.

[Velaryon]

I've always been a big fan of the Worm That Walks, at least fluff-wise. That link is to the epic version, which makes it unsuitable for most games. Also, I'm unwilling to vouch for how well it's designed; I just think it's really cool.

[Gruftzwerg]

a 16th lvl warlock could pick the dark invocation "Dark Discorporation". It lets him turn into batlike shadows. Downside is, you are reduced to move actions and can't use other invocations.

but kicks in very late where more and more enemies will have an answer to swarms...

[daremetoidareyo]

I guess you could be a hivemind (BOVD).

[frogglesmash]

Cranium Rats from Fiend Folio form a hive mind that gets smarter the more rats there are.

[Inevitability]

The Anthropomorphic template from Savage Species says the following:

Any animal (hereafter referred to as the base creature), but not a dire animal, can be created as an anthropomorphic animal.

Rat and bat swarms are both animals, and aren't dire, so they are valid targets.

Level adjustment, however, is a problem. The book makes it quite clear that it's supposed to have a LA for every animal in the MM, but it doesn't. By strict RAW, that'd mean the swarm's LA of — is unchanged. However, the rule by which this'd happen is commonly houseruled away (as nobody likes playing with +0 LA Chosen of Bane), so depending on the workaround your group uses it might be possible.

Personally, I'd suggest a LA of +2 for anthropomorphic bat swarms, and one of +1 (possibly +0?) for the rat swarm.

[ShurikVch]

I know, it wouldn't help in case of the Hellwasp Swarm, but for a swarm in general - Swarm Form spell (Dragon #280) is awesome
It lasts 1 hour/level (and, being 5th-level Sorcerer/Wizard spell, it's mean 9 - 10 hours of transformation from the very start; or 18 - 20, if extended)
You can transform into anything which may be summoned by the Summon Swarm, or into swarm of any other Tiny(or smaller)-sized Animals or Vermin
Unlike the "regular" Swarm, your form have some differences:

• your Space stays the same as for your normal form
• area attack doesn't cause +50% extra damage for you
• your Swarm Attack overcomes DR/magic

[rahimka]

During an Evil campaign, my PC's cohort was actually sentient Hellwasp Swarm. The thing was sent by Asmodeus as an emissary of sorts to guide my PC into his evil destiny and what not. It used the aggregate sound from its/their wings to mimic humanoid speech (since it's telepathy range was "touch"). The thing had an... unsettling... effect on almost everybody we met. But that worked for my PC and the creepy vibe he WANTED to project.

I think pretty much any PC Swarm would run into problems ANY level of actual socializing. Some rather extreme measures for disguising yourself might HELP, but the best you're realistically going to achieve is not immediately standing out as a terrifying swarm of somethings

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Swarms are technically a single creature, so Wild Shape can let you turn into a swarm. Hellwasp swarms would be unavailable barring Planar Shepherd, though.

Theres also the silithar, but last I checked, the ECl for that was prohibitively expensive.

You can also use Lycanthrope template to make your creature a were-swarm for Animal swarms (like rats and ravens). Size restrictions might make this somewhat hard to do, though.

Entomanthrope for bug swarms.

The brood keeper's heart soulmeld grants the [swarm] subtype on its own, if you can bind it to your heart chakra.

[Necroticplague]

Entomanthrope for bug swarms.

Sadly, this doesn't work, because that was much better written than Lycanthrope.

Size and Type: The base creature's type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype. The entomanothrope takes on characteristics of some monstrous vermin (not swarms) no more than one size category larger than the base creature (referred to as the base vermin).

[ShurikVch]

Note: Hellwasp Swarm is listed as an option for Improved Familiar in Dragon #329
(required Evil alignment and arcane CL 16+)

The thing had an... unsettling... effect on almost everybody we met. But that worked for my PC and the creepy vibe he WANTED to project.

I think pretty much any PC Swarm would run into problems ANY level of actual socializing. Some rather extreme measures for disguising yourself might HELP, but the best you're realistically going to achieve is not immediately standing out as a terrifying swarm of somethings

Actually, the Inhabit (Ex) SA of Hellwasp Swarm can kinda circumvent it: people would see the controlled creature, not the Swarm itself

[Necroticplague]

I think pretty much any PC Swarm would run into problems ANY level of actual socializing. Some rather extreme measures for disguising yourself might HELP, but the best you're realistically going to achieve is not immediately standing out as a terrifying swarm of somethings

Well, most of the forms of swarmdom available to PCs don't have that problem, because their ability is to turn into a swarm, not always be one. Silithar can gather themselves into a non-swarm form, Lycanthropes can simply not be in animal or hybrid form, druids can simply not Wildshape into a swarm,..

[Malapterus]

Sadly if I was DMing I'd have to say a swarm is not "one animal" for the purpose of things such ad Wild Shape. It's explicitly not, and if it was, what size category would it be? It takes up 4 spaces but the entry says 'diminutive'. I don't think lycanthropy and druidism were meant to work that way.

[ShurikVch]

Sadly if I was DMing I'd have to say a swarm is not "one animal" for the purpose of things such ad Wild Shape. It's explicitly not, and if it was, what size category would it be? It takes up 4 spaces but the entry says 'diminutive'. I don't think lycanthropy and druidism were meant to work that way.

City-Shape:

At 12th level, the druid does not gain the ability to transform into plant creatures. Instead, she may transform into an animal- or vermin-based swarm, so long as it fits within her standard wild shaping Hit Die limits.

Swarm Form:

At 10th level, a vermin keeper can use his wild shape to assume the form of any vermin swarm (any swarm whose constituent creatures are of the vermin type).

Swarm Shape:

Beginning at 2nd level, a master of flies can take the form of a swarm of vicious little vermin and return to her own form. This effect is similar to that of a summon swarm spell, except that the swarm is of the same size category as the caster (and it has the same face statistic as the caster). The master of flies can choose the type of vermin from the table above. In swarm shape, she can move at a speed of 15 feet, or up to 45 feet if the swarm flies (poor maneuverability).
The swarm has the same number of hit points as the original creature and can be damaged by fire and area-effect spells and abilities. If the swarm is dispersed (by gust of wind, for example), the master of flies must return to her own shape. To do so, the dispersed creatures must first coalesce (at the swarm’s speed); the master of flies must take a standard action on the following round to transform.
A master of flies can use this ability once per day at 2nd level and more times per day at 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, and 9th level, as shown on Table 7–3: The Master of Flies.
At 5th level, a master of flies is able to take the shape of a swarm identical to that produced by an insect plague spell, except that the swarm can be no more than one size larger than the master of flies (you can choose the face if more than one is available). This swarm can move at half the master of flies’ normal speed and can fly at the same speed (clumsy maneuverability).
At 8th level, a master of flies is able to take the shape of a swarm identical to that produced by a creeping doom spell, except that the swarm can be no more than two size categories larger than the master of flies (you can choose the face statistic if more than one is possible). This mass of vermin can only move at 10 feet per round and cannot fly.
In all other respects, the swarm shape ability is identical to the druid’s wild shape ability (see Chapter 3 of the Player's Handbook).

[Malapterus]

City-Shape:Swarm Form:Swarm Shape:

Right, but some people were saying a swarm counts as one animal so any druid can de-facto become a swarm of rats; this is what I disagree with

[Darrin]

I recall some crazy forum build using dread blossom swarms and a symbiote template. Searching for dread blossom swarm might turn it up.

Gather 'round children, and let me tell you a story about the forgotten template...

A couple other swarm ideas:

Black Sparrow uses MoMF + the black pudding's Split (Ex) ability + Dark Speech to create a hivemind swarm. This post explains a more elegant work-around for knocking down the swarm's HD so it works with Dark Speech.

However, there's an easier way... Bard 5/Warlock 1 can summon a bat swarm, cast sonorous hum to take care of the concentration, and then use Dark Speech to turn it into a hivemind with sorcerer casting around... level 89, I think? High enough to do some body-swapping shenanigans.

[Necroticplague]

Sadly if I was DMing I'd have to say a swarm is not "one animal" for the purpose of things such ad Wild Shape.

And that's your prerogitive as the DM, it's just directly contrary to what the rules actually say.

It's explicitly not,

Wrong.

For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature

A swarm, by definition, is one creature. If it's not just one creature, it's not a swarm.

and if it was, what size category would it be? It takes up 4 spaces but the entry says 'diminutive'.

It's Diminutive, because it's statblock says so. Size and space aren't necessarily related, even though they generally are. The fact that swarms are are always 10x10 is a specific trait of swarms, regardless of its size.

I don't think lycanthropy and druidism were meant to work that way.

Probably not, but I fail to see why the intent is relevant. The words on the page are the words on the page, regardless of why they were written there.

[Malapterus]

There are many pages. One of the pages says "a swarm of diminiutuve creatures consists of 5,000 flying creatures." Wild Shape lets you turn into AN animal, not 5,000 animals. A druid cannot turn into a swarm any more than it can turn into a pack or herd.

[Thurbane]

As mentioned: Silithar (LoM p.168). 9RHD +8 LA...so not exactly viable for most PCs.

[ATHATH]

I know, it wouldn't help in case of the Hellwasp Swarm, but for a swarm in general - Swarm Form spell (Dragon #280) is awesome
It lasts 1 hour/level (and, being 5th-level Sorcerer/Wizard spell, it's mean 9 - 10 hours of transformation from the very start; or 18 - 20, if extended)
You can transform into anything which may be summoned by the Summon Swarm, or into swarm of any other Tiny(or smaller)-sized Animals or Vermin
Unlike the "regular" Swarm, your form have some differences:

• your Space stays the same as for your normal form
• area attack doesn't cause +50% extra damage for you
• your Swarm Attack overcomes DR/magic

Does it give you the (Su) abilities of the form that you adopt? Teleporting around all day as an argent spider swarm might be pretty cool.

Can you cast spells in the form that you adopt?

[ATHATH]

There are many pages. One of the pages says "a swarm of diminiutuve creatures consists of 5,000 flying creatures." Wild Shape lets you turn into AN animal, not 5,000 animals. A druid cannot turn into a swarm any more than it can turn into a pack or herd.

And I counter that with this quote from the text of the Wild Shape ability:

Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type.

I will admit that the sentence before the one that I just quoted might conflict with my argument, but my computer is having a hard time highlighting things from the srd (or from anywhere, really).

Can we get eggynack in here to settle this for us?

[Necroticplague]

There are many pages. One of the pages says "a swarm of diminiutuve creatures consists of 5,000 flying creatures." Wild Shape lets you turn into AN animal, not 5,000 animals. A druid cannot turn into a swarm any more than it can turn into a pack or herd.

Turning into a swarm isn't turning into 5000 creatures. It's turning into one: the swarm. Just like how a human is made of trillions of cells, but is only one creature, the swarm is made of thousands of spiders/rats/whatevers, but is only one creature.

[Malapterus]

Turning into a swarm isn't turning into 5000 creatures. It's turning into one: the swarm. Just like how a human is made of trillions of cells, but is only one creature, the swarm is made of thousands of spiders/rats/whatevers, but is only one creature.

It's a little different. One of your skin cells can't survive on its own. One of your kidneys can't go out on an individual adventure. Your arms can't slither off indefinitely and then come join up with you or another person.

Many swarms have stats for their individual members, but outside undead there are no stats for individual cells or loose limbs. A swarm is a collection of individual, independent life forms, working together. It's no more a single creature than a city is, or the planet. A Druid cannot turn into a city.

[ATHATH]

A Druid cannot turn into a city.

And that's where you're wrong!

Apply size buffs to yourself until you reach Colossal (size). Then, fail your saving throw against Flesh to Stone. Then, have a group of people carve a civilization/city into your stone form. Bam. You started as a Druid(,) and are now a city. If that doesn't count as "a Druid turning into a city", I don't know what does.

[stack]

And that's where you're wrong!

Apply size buffs to yourself until you reach Colossal (size). Then, fail your saving throw against Flesh to Stone. Then, have a group of people carve a civilization/city into your stone form. Bam. You started as a Druid(,) and are now a city. If that doesn't count as "a Druid turning into a city", I don't know what does.

Colossal creatures have a 25 ft cubic space, and space is greater than actual volume. That's a room with an unusually tall ceiling, not a city.

Seriously, colossal is big for an animal, but not big in terms of architecture.

[Darrin]

Colossal creatures have a 25 ft cubic space, and space is greater than actual volume. That's a room with an unusually tall ceiling, not a city.

A city is defined in the DMG (p. 137) by population rather than physical size. So if the 25 ft cubic space includes at least 5,001 inhabitants, then it can be considered a "small city". Thus, a bat swarm (5,000 bats) + one other resident could be regarded as a city.