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    Default New character

    So, I have this upcoming campaign and have the offline version of D&D Insider Character Builder (I'm away from computer, but I think the latest package was dated at sometime fall 2010?)

    Anyway, It has data up to PHB 3 and then some magazines, so I'd appreciate if all suggestions (if any) were made with that in mind.

    My DM said his group needed a dedicated Defender and a Controller, and at first I made a Storm Sorcerer with a heavy focus on control (which I believe is the point of that origin anyway), but now my spouse has said she definitely wants to play a swarm druid (a pure controller) so I was wondering if I could keep at least some of that control aspect while playing a defender.

    I'd prefer to play a Human, Dwarf, or – as a wild card – Warforged.

    Should I make a mainly paladin who multiclasses into Sorcerer, or should I make a hybrid of them (hybridizing as a storm sorcerer)?

    Any thoughts?

    Ps. I'd prefer to keep my melee powers using strength and ranged powers/spells (from sorcerer - obviously) using charisma (or other mental ability, if the option below is recommended) because I find it stupid to use anything other than str or dex for weapon attacks.

    Or, would some other class or combination fit better with this concept?
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-12-15 at 07:11 PM.

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    Default Re: New character

    Honestly, the single best and easiest to optimize defender in 4e is the fighter.

    But, really, it depends on what kind of characters you like to play. Do you *like* build complexity? How about complexity during your turn in combat?

    What level of character are we talking about?

    What level of optimization is your group likely to do? Are strikers using encounter powers to (A) bloody monsters, (B) one-round monsters, (C) one-round elites, or (D) one-round solos? (one-round means "kill in one round")

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    All defenders are controllers, though for many the control is mostly "Wouldn't you rather hit me instead of my squishy buddy?" I'd say Swordmage and Fighter are the two defenders most able to impose control beyond that. Well, battlemind is great too, but you said no Constitution attacks.

    If you decide paladin is more important than control is, consider replacing sorcerer with warlock. Warlock powers have great side effects, especially when Charisma is the attack stat. But Charisma isn't a good line of work for dwarves or warforged ...
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    I'm quite fine with complexity (hence, the Hybrid from PHB 3). I have a long history of complex characters with 3.5 and pathfinder (plus, I have played 4e since playtest, and I'm quite familiar with the edition's basic functions).

    We're going to be joining an existing group which had issues with some players not attending reliably, but I only know the DM beforehand. Never met the other players. I only know that their characters are a cleric and a warlock; no idea of their gimmicks.

    We're going to be starting at 4th level. We rolled our stats, and mine are 17, 17, 16, 14, 13, 10. DM said that with Human I can adjust the racial +2 to any one ability → +1 to any two abilities, if I wanted to.

    Paladin isn't essential, to be honest. But I do like the Storm Sorcery thematically, so even if I didn't make a Paladin/Sorcerer, I'd like to have some more control, in addition to "hit me, not them" something like pushing and sliding multiple targets simultaneously. If I can fit "Storm" (as in, lightning and thunder powers) in it, the better.

    I don't want to step on the others' toes by multiclassing to/hybridizing with Cleric, Druid, or Warlock.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-12-16 at 12:20 AM.

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    Default Re: New character

    Dag, man, dem some bitchin' stat rolls.

    For storm thematics on a defender-controller, I'd go either swordmage or warden, both work. And being a slave to basic optimization, I'd select race based on which class stats it boosts. So, no dwarf swordmage.

    Do you get the level 4 stat bump on top of your rolled stats?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Dag, man, dem some bitchin' stat rolls.

    For storm thematics on a defender-controller, I'd go either swordmage or warden, both work. And being a slave to basic optimization, I'd select race based on which class stats it boosts. So, no dwarf swordmage.

    Do you get the level 4 stat bump on top of your rolled stats?
    Heh, the DM wanted the PC's to be particularly superhumanly and let us roll five times and pick the best set, so...

    Yeah, all normal bumps are added to that

    Swordmage has that part that it uses Int for weapon attacks by default and I feel iffy about it :D
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-12-16 at 03:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Swordmage has that part that it uses Int for weapon attacks by default and I feel iffy about it :D
    With stat rolls like those, you really don't have to worry about that.

    Plus, the Swordmage is a highly effective defender at any rate. It was certainly the most popular in my area, and is probably the second-best defender in the game after only the Fighter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Swordmage has that part that it uses Int for weapon attacks by default and I feel iffy about it :D
    I admit, using just their implement attacks would seriously limit your range of choices. I'd say warden, then, which would lean in a dwarfy direction to get that minor-action second wind goodness (though slow movement isn't ideal for a defender).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    I admit, using just their implement attacks would seriously limit your range of choices. I'd say warden, then, which would lean in a dwarfy direction to get that minor-action second wind goodness (though slow movement isn't ideal for a defender).
    What about Warforged Warden? :D

    Or, maybe a hybrid Fighter/Swordmage?
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-12-16 at 06:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Heh, the DM wanted the PC's to be particularly superhumanly and let us roll five times and pick the best set, so...

    Yeah, all normal bumps are added to that

    Swordmage has that part that it uses Int for weapon attacks by default and I feel iffy about it :D
    Sorcerer|Cavalier hybrid who spends hybrid talent on Paladin Armor is a really easy PC to play that's very flexible. Call of Challenge+Valorous Smite gives you a couple of mass sanctions. Dragonborn has a feat for another and is a great racial choice for it. You'll even get some bonus initiative tossed in for free from Cavalier and good # of healing surges.

    If you actually expected to get to Epic, you won't be able to get Weakening Challenge feat, but otherwise it is a very good set of choices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    What about Warforged Warden? :D

    Or, maybe a hybrid Fighter/Swordmage?
    I recommend dwarf because of the warden second-wind riders. Font of Life goes nicely with a +5 save against poison, and +2 Str +2 Con certainly helps the class, but it's mostly getting that extra effect that other races frequently just fail to.

    As for the hybrid: well, I mean, you're clearly experienced, but even with the years I've got under my belt I benefit from asking myself The Question: What do I get out of hybridization that a straight class couldn't do as well or better? None of the races you list gives a +2 to both Str and Int, so right off the bat you're reducing your accuracy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    Sorcerer|Cavalier hybrid who spends hybrid talent on Paladin Armor is a really easy PC to play that's very flexible.
    Ya know, I was gonna suggest Cavalier|Warlock or Cavalier|Sorcerer, but I usually catch $#!+ from this forum for daring to suggest cavalier could be okay.
    Last edited by Dimers; 2017-12-16 at 06:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    Sorcerer|Cavalier hybrid who spends hybrid talent on Paladin Armor is a really easy PC to play that's very flexible. Call of Challenge+Valorous Smite gives you a couple of mass sanctions. Dragonborn has a feat for another and is a great racial choice for it. You'll even get some bonus initiative tossed in for free from Cavalier and good # of healing surges.

    If you actually expected to get to Epic, you won't be able to get Weakening Challenge feat, but otherwise it is a very good set of choices.
    Unfortunately I have no idea what this cavalier is or where it's from (in 4th edition terms anyway).

    I assume it's a paladin variant of some sort?


    Re: hybrid, I seem to recall that warforged had an option to choose int/con + str but I could be wrong.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-12-16 at 06:59 PM.

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    Yep, cavalier is an Essentials paladin introduced in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. The hybrid cavalier is Dragon Magazine 402, though. Either way, it has an aura that acts like a weak (but automated!) mark. The hybrid can take normal paladin powers, which means you can add divine sanction back into your build, though not divine challenge.

    Warforged stat bump is Con + Int/Str (at least as of the latest update, dunno if it differed before).
    Last edited by Dimers; 2017-12-17 at 02:30 AM. Reason: "Heroes of HotFK"? Really?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Yep, cavalier is an Essentials paladin introduced in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. The hybrid cavalier is Dragon Magazine 402, though. Either way, it has an aura that acts like a weak (but automated!) mark. The hybrid can take normal paladin powers, which means you can add divine sanction back into your build, though not divine challenge.

    Warforged stat bump is Con + Int/Str (at least as of the latest update, dunno if it differed before).
    Unfortunately my Character Builder doesn't include HotFK stuff :(

    ...I guess I'll just have to build in the old-fashioned way: .doc file or excel

    There's one rather awesome thing about Sorcerer hybrid: you get to add STR to AC instead of DEX/INT if you chose that as your Spell Power modifier, which would mean that I don't necessarily need Paladin Armor via Hybrid Talent. Although, if I chose Spell Source it'd have to be draconic since Storm uses Dexterity as secondary.

    Would you say this would work?

    Str 18², Con 15¹, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 18²
    ¹Human racial +2 in Con, since I don't gain anything from even Con score.
    ²4th level bumps

    Cavalier|Storm Sorcerer.

    Either way, the idea of essentially "naked" defender with Strength as Spell Power and nothing more than Cloth to wear seems hilarious – and awesome at the same time
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-12-17 at 03:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Ya know, I was gonna suggest Cavalier|Warlock or Cavalier|Sorcerer, but I usually catch $#!+ from this forum for daring to suggest cavalier could be okay.
    How dare you suggest cavalier could be okay!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    How dare you suggest cavalier could be okay!

    Sounds like an overly lax attitude, not serious enough, insufficiently concerned, perhaps even... I'm sure there's a word for this...

    ...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Would you say this would work?

    Str 18², Con 15¹, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 18²
    ¹Human racial +2 in Con, since I don't gain anything from even Con score.
    ²4th level bumps
    Yes, though it's less optimal than putting the racial +2 in Charisma. And I'd throw the 16 into Constitution, as cavaliers can make better-than-average use of their surges. Str 18, Con 16, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 20.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    How dare you suggest cavalier could be okay!
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiornys View Post
    Sounds like an overly lax attitude, not serious enough, insufficiently concerned, perhaps even... I'm sure there's a word for this...
    And thank you as well.
    Last edited by Dimers; 2017-12-17 at 03:58 AM.
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    It might be that times have changed and 4e era enthusiastic optimizers have let their excess steam out and/or moved forward to other games to not give a damn anymore :P

    I don't mind whether my character was a tad on the weak side. But having read the Cavalier entries from HotFK and DM400(!), it seems really intriguing. Even though it won't get Divine Challenge. I believe I could choose sorcerer powers that pull, slide, or teleport targets within an area. I probably could keep enemies locked within that aura?

    Also, I'd rather keep my melee (STR) and ranged/spells (CHA) evened so I won't have to keep too much track of their differences. Unless there was a point I missed in higher charisma even if I used strength for melee?

    What if I put racial +2 to con with 16 already there, getting a whopping 18 instead?
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-12-17 at 04:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    I'd rather keep my melee (STR) and ranged/spells (CHA) evened so I won't have to keep too much track of their differences. Unless there was a point I missed in higher charisma even if I used strength for melee?
    Your melee and magic will use different numbers anyway, due to the weapon attacks getting a proficiency bonus. But no, if you don't use Charisma for weapon attacks -- durnit, I keep forgetting that! -- then there's no exceptional need to improve that over other stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    What if I put racial +2 to con with 16 already there, getting a whopping 18 instead?
    Beefy is good. Especially if the DM will match the superheroic PCs with superdangerous combats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Your melee and magic will use different numbers anyway, due to the weapon attacks getting a proficiency bonus. But no, if you don't use Charisma for weapon attacks -- durnit, I keep forgetting that! -- then there's no exceptional need to improve that over other stats.

    Beefy is good. Especially if the DM will match the superheroic PCs with superdangerous combats.
    Ahh, right, I forgot something as well: Proficiency bonus was related to weapons only, whoops!

    I guess, technically, if I were to super-optimize, having higher charisma than strength would effectively make the spells catch up melee in accuracy, so there's that

    But that might be just too silly. Besides, I think it's likely that the DM beefs up combat a bit.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-12-17 at 06:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    So,

    "<game that I dislike> will break down when people try to optimize it, whereas this will never happen in <game that I like>."

    I think I've heard this argument now for every conceivable D&D-related pair of <game>s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Ahh, right, I forgot something as well: Proficiency bonus was related to weapons only, whoops!

    I guess, technically, if I were to super-optimize, having higher charisma than strength would effectively make the spells catch up melee in accuracy, so there's that

    But that might be just too silly. Besides, I think it's likely that the DM beefs up combat a bit.
    In general, don't boost tertiary stats. Keep it to your primary and secondary stats, especially when there's a class such as Sorcerer in the mix.

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    I love hybrids and there's definitely stuff to work with here, but I just wanted to discuss a few things.

    First off, bumping something that's not your main stat with your racial boost is kind of silly. I know the DM can just make encounters more difficult if you're too optimized, but if the DM wanted 'particularly superhuman' PCs then starting with 17s in your main stats whereas most people start with 18s is somewhat counterintuitive there. Consitution also isn't doing particarly much - it's about 3-5 extra hit points and a handful of extra surges, which isn't very meaningful. Adventuring days tend to end when one person gets low on surges, and even then there are rituals that help with that (Comrades' Succor!).

    Secondly, how much of a controller will the Swarm Druid truly be? Mostly asking this because the Druid player in my home game has shown me that it's particularly easy to screw up Druids to the point where they don't do much of anything. Especially Swarm Druids after WoTC nerfed Hide Armor Expertise (from Primal Power). Swarm Druids are stuck in light armor without a secondary stat going to their Armor Class (Wis/Con build, AC gets bumped by either Dex or Int...). They also usually want to do some control in melee, but they'll just get slaughtered because they tend to get hit by every attack.

    Sorcerer isn't much of a controller. A true defender|controller hybrid is somewhat tough to do as well, though the classic example is Swordmage|Wizard.
    Now, I know you dislike having Int as your melee attack stat, but I personally don't find that a particularly weird combination. Swordmage weapon attacks are heavily involved with magic as well. Their attacks aren't brute-forced like you would find on a Barbarian, which is in line with the damage the powers tend to do (Swordmage powers tend to just do 1[W] or 2[W] and rarely get anything higher). I like to think of the Swordmage as a magical tactician. They don't smash their enemies' skulls in with their swords (Str), and neither do they go for a nimble flurry of attacks (Dex). Rather, they can have extensive knowledge of war tactics, magic and their enemies, allowing them to use their sword to deliver a jolt of lightning with a minor cut at a weak spot in the enemy's defense.
    And even then, a Swordmage|Wizard can still do some work as a Strength/Intelligence character with a Storm theme. Stormsoul Genasi are practically made for it, giving Wizards a use for Strength through their racial feats, as well as being the only race with a bonus towards both Strength and Intelligence.

    Similarly, spellcasters on physical stats can also make sense. Take Con-based Infernal Warlocks. Their powers are ripped (in some cases stolen) from the Nine Hells and often give the Warlock the option of damaging him/herself. They channel otherworldy power that is not really meant for them through their bodies, enduring the pain and directing their wrath towards their enemies.

    That said, I will admit I also have difficulty imagining a Paladin smashing people with their force of personality.

    Perhaps I'm thinking too much about this. I'll admit to just liking Swordmages a bit too much lately. If my current character ever dies (funnily enough, also a Cavalier hybrid) I'll definitely pick up a Swordmage Hybrid if party composition allows for me. In the end, depending on if you want a defender|controller, defender|striker or just straight defender, a lot of things are possible. A Flail Fighter tends to be heavy on the melee control as well, for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    In general, don't boost tertiary stats. Keep it to your primary and secondary stats, especially when there's a class such as Sorcerer in the mix.
    I still have the option, if I choose human (as I probably will), that instead the normal +2 to any ability score, I can divide that to +1 to any two ability scores. (So, I could put +1 to Strength and +1 Charisma)

    Quote Originally Posted by Highfeather View Post
    I love hybrids and there's definitely stuff to work with here, but I just wanted to discuss a few things.

    First off, bumping something that's not your main stat with your racial boost is kind of silly. I know the DM can just make encounters more difficult if you're too optimized, but if the DM wanted 'particularly superhuman' PCs then starting with 17s in your main stats whereas most people start with 18s is somewhat counterintuitive there. Consitution also isn't doing particarly much - it's about 3-5 extra hit points and a handful of extra surges, which isn't very meaningful. Adventuring days tend to end when one person gets low on surges, and even then there are rituals that help with that (Comrades' Succor!).
    As mentioned above, my character's racial ability score modifier can be adjusted at the DM's approval.
    Since the stats were rolled, I can't really change my main stats from 17 to 18 (besides, they are easily above the standard point-buy, so I really wouldn't sweat it that much).

    Secondly, how much of a controller will the Swarm Druid truly be? Mostly asking this because the Druid player in my home game has shown me that it's particularly easy to screw up Druids to the point where they don't do much of anything. Especially Swarm Druids after WoTC nerfed Hide Armor Expertise (from Primal Power). Swarm Druids are stuck in light armor without a secondary stat going to their Armor Class (Wis/Con build, AC gets bumped by either Dex or Int...). They also usually want to do some control in melee, but they'll just get slaughtered because they tend to get hit by every attack.
    I won't be the judge of that. I'll let my spouse make the character herself, because it's her character, not mine. If she asks for advice, then I will do my best, but otherwise I trust in her ability to make her own choices – which are no doubt influenced by flavor instead of pure optimization

    Sorcerer isn't much of a controller. A true defender|controller hybrid is somewhat tough to do as well, though the classic example is Swordmage|Wizard.
    Now, I know you dislike having Int as your melee attack stat, but I personally don't find that a particularly weird combination. Swordmage weapon attacks are heavily involved with magic as well. Their attacks aren't brute-forced like you would find on a Barbarian, which is in line with the damage the powers tend to do (Swordmage powers tend to just do 1[W] or 2[W] and rarely get anything higher). I like to think of the Swordmage as a magical tactician. They don't smash their enemies' skulls in with their swords (Str), and neither do they go for a nimble flurry of attacks (Dex). Rather, they can have extensive knowledge of war tactics, magic and their enemies, allowing them to use their sword to deliver a jolt of lightning with a minor cut at a weak spot in the enemy's defense.
    And even then, a Swordmage|Wizard can still do some work as a Strength/Intelligence character with a Storm theme. Stormsoul Genasi are practically made for it, giving Wizards a use for Strength through their racial feats, as well as being the only race with a bonus towards both Strength and Intelligence.

    Similarly, spellcasters on physical stats can also make sense. Take Con-based Infernal Warlocks. Their powers are ripped (in some cases stolen) from the Nine Hells and often give the Warlock the option of damaging him/herself. They channel otherworldy power that is not really meant for them through their bodies, enduring the pain and directing their wrath towards their enemies.
    I know that Sorcerer normally isn't a controller, but imho Storm Sorcerer powers tend to be very controlling in that they cause several different ongoing conditions and other negative or involuntary effects: pulls, pushes, slides, teleports, etc.

    It's not that I didn't understand the reasoning behind those key abilities; I do. I just prefer in this case that the character used "normal" ability scores in that respect. Maybe I'm just too "grognard" to accept them :P

    Perhaps I'm thinking too much about this. I'll admit to just liking Swordmages a bit too much lately. If my current character ever dies (funnily enough, also a Cavalier hybrid) I'll definitely pick up a Swordmage Hybrid if party composition allows for me. In the end, depending on if you want a defender|controller, defender|striker or just straight defender, a lot of things are possible. A Flail Fighter tends to be heavy on the melee control as well, for example.
    Perhaps so. But no worries. I have my own opinion about it and I won't enforce them upon anyone else. And there's nothing wrong about fancying one thing over another.

    I fancy that my characters are somewhat stereotypically strong warriors or cunning mages, etc.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-12-17 at 01:17 PM.

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    Right, let's see what we can do with Cavalier|Sorcerer as a Defender.

    Starting with your array and assuming the houseruled Human, I'd go for this:
    Str 17, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 17. Split the racial bonus into +1s and give them to Strength and Charisma to start with 18s in both. The third highest stat goes towards Dex for higher Initiative and to patch up your Reflex.
    A starting Consitution of 14 should be enough. For your Cavalier choice, I'd pick the Virtue of Valor. An additional +4 initiative will give you good odds of getting to act before the monsters, so you can get into position. The extra bit of healing surge value doesn't hurt either. You should be starting with 10 healing surges, which should be more than enough.

    In general you're probably going to want to be more in melee since your aura is only active for enemies adjacent to you, and then you're giving people some incentive to attack you.
    It might be tempting to pick up the Sorcerer Spell Source for its riders, but I feel like it's tough to be marking stuff in Cloth and no Shields. You can fix some of that with additional feats and items, most notably Unarmored Agility (+2 feat bonus in Cloth to put it on par with Leather) and a +1 Aversion Staff in the off-hand (+2 item bonus to all your defenses versus any enemy under one of your effects... like your aura). However, you might very well not like the image of having a staff in your off-hand (though you could refluff that, it's heavily encouraged).
    I'd just pick Paladin Armor Proficiency for your Hybrid Talent to get Plate + Heavy Shields. Combined with your high stats in Str/Dex/Cha, that should make sure all your defenses are rock solid to begin with. If you don't mind the off-hand staff, you could still pick up a Light Shield and hold the staff in that hand for its property.

    The main issue with this hybrid is what you're using your hands for. The Sorcerer is a striker first and foremost, and mostly wants a weapon-as-implement (it gets both Staff and Dagger to start) to be able to attach Dragonshards and such. Heck, it even wants to hold two implements later on for the Dual Implement Spellcaster feat. However, if this isn't high op you can do whatever you'd like. Cavaliers get a slotless implement in Holy Symbols which you can also use, allowing a free choice of weapon. Combined with the Paladin's Armor, that gives you access to a better Expertise feat (Devout Protector Expertise, which is in Dragon #402), passively giving all your allies a +1 shield bonus to AC just because you're awesome!
    Otherwise, pick a Dagger which is already an implement for you, or something like a Rapier/Longsword and take the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat to be able to use them as your implement. Saves you on having to upgrade multiple items as well. You'll be stuck with Versatile Expertise as your Expertise feat though.

    Considering it looks like you had some powers in mind, I'm not going to suggest much more on the actual powers/feats front. However, I will note that you'd likely want a way to give more people an incentive to attack you, so Call of Challenge (Paladin Utility 2) can be useful to "Divine Sanction" (mark + autopunishment) all enemies within 3 squares of you. Aside from that, Flame Spiral (Sorcerer Encounter 3) is pretty much the Sorcerer's best Encounter power, and it's extra tasty for people who already want to be in melee anyway.


    Now, all of this is just some generic advice for how to approach a Cavalier|Sorcerer. Most people would likely build this as a tanky Striker and wreck havoc with the Sorcerer powers (and most of its best powers are close-ranged anyway) that could also punish enemies a bit for attacking their allies. But you can also build it to be more of a Defender by, for example, multiclassing Fighter with Battle Awareness (giving you a 1/enc double punishment for an adjacent enemy attacking an ally). That also gives you access to Martial & Fighter feats, including some amazing ones. For a Defender using a Flail, Lashing Flail (in Paragon, so at level 11) + Flail Expertise is amazing, allowing you to prone everything on your melee basic attacks, and therefore anybody who tries to walk away from you.
    Of course, that all depends on what you want to do. There's plenty of ways to go with a hybrid like this.

    EDIT: Also, one peculiar thing about this Hybrid if you really do want to go with the Spell Source Hybrid Talent. The feature that gives the Hybrid Sorcerer Strength to AC & Sorcerer damage rolls is independent of the Spell Source. Normally, Dragon and Cosmic are tied to Strength with Storm and Wild being tied to Dexterity, but there's nothing stopping you from picking 'Strength to AC & Sorcerer damage rolls' and then spending your Hybrid Talent on the Storm Spell Source. Though I would imagine Storm power riders/feats are tied to Dexterity anyway, so I'm not sure if that's the way to go.

    EDIT2: For your Human racial, I tend to always want to pick Heroic Effort, but the third at-will could very well help you out here. It could allow for two Sorcerer at wills, giving you both a ranged option and a close blast option (to still get that Sorcerer damage when in an enemy's face).
    Last edited by Highfeather; 2017-12-17 at 02:15 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #25
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    Default Re: New character

    That's a lot to sink in, although none of it incomprehensible nor poorly argued.

    I was, indeed, thinking about taking Arcane Implement Proficiency for Heavy Blades, so that's two feats. Hybrid Talent is obviously another; while "naked" tanking sounds hilarious, I see the same problem with not having shield proficiencies. Plus, I'd probably want at least Hide armor anyway.

    I had at some point a fairly silly idea of making even a bigger "mess" out of this character by Paragon Multiclassing with something like Fighter or even Barbarian. Fighter would get me Threatening Rush at-will power, which can be used with charge and marks everyone around the target I hit for one round, barbarian would give me some Rage options (at least a few of which give the ability to mark enemies while they last) to play with, plus the multiclassing feat for barbarian (I forgot the name) gave 1/enc bonus to damage rolls (including with "spells") which was neat!

    Anyway, I'm on my cellphone and will edit my answer in further length once I'm on PC. Feel free to respond to this though.

    Edit: while I have some powers in mind, I wouldn't mind hearing suggestions from others. There are so many I might not even know about, as my CB only has up to Oct 2010 update, and my old external drive (where I have nearly all 4e pdf's) is in "somewhere I haven't located yet" :D
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-12-18 at 09:14 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
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    Default Re: New character

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    ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
    level 4
    Dragonborn, Fighter|Sorcerer
    Sorcerous Power: Sorcerous Power Strength
    Hybrid Talent: Combat Specialty
    Combat Specialty: Combat Superiority (Hybrid)
    Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blade group)
    Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragon Breath
    Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
    Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Lightning
    Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 20, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 20.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 17, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 17.


    AC: 20 Fort: 19 Reflex: 15 Will: 19
    HP: 48 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 13

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Streetwise +12, Athletics +12, Intimidate +14

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Acrobatics +4, Arcana +2, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +3, Heal +5, History +4, Insight +5, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +2, Stealth +4, Thievery +4

    FEATS
    Level 1: Hybrid Talent
    Level 2: Unarmored Agility
    Level 4: Arcane Implement Proficiency

    POWERS
    Hybrid at-will 1: Footwork Lure
    Hybrid at-will 1: Burning Spray
    Hybrid encounter 1: Hack and Hew
    Hybrid daily 1: Grounding Rebuke
    Hybrid utility 2: Dragonflame Mantle
    Hybrid encounter 3: Flame Spiral

    ITEMS
    Greatsword, Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing)
    ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

    That is a sketch of a dragonborn Fighter|Sorcerer. Nothing really super-optimal, but playable.

    Instead of greatsword you could go dual shortswords, or shortsword+rapier. Swap footwork lure for dual strike, and Hack and Hew for Funneling Fury. This gives you more at-will marks.

    Dragonflame Mantle deals 1d6+5 damage on people who hit you for 1 turn.

    At level 7, you'll get Come and Get it. First use an action point, then flame spiral, then come and get it to deal an insane amount of damage and repositioning. (2d6+1d8+15+Implement*3+Hit extras+3*roll extras) Mix in Rain of Steel 1/day for yet another tap. When they attack you, deal another 1d6+5 damage from Dragonflame Mantle; if they don't, punish with combat superiority.

  27. - Top - End - #27
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    Default Re: New character

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    TI was, indeed, thinking about taking Arcane Implement Proficiency for Heavy Blades, so that's two feats. Hybrid Talent is obviously another; while "naked" tanking sounds hilarious, I see the same problem with not having shield proficiencies. Plus, I'd probably want at least Hide armor anyway.
    I'd definitely take Paladin Armor with Hybrid Talent if the goal is to be a Defender.

    One thing to consider is having a 13 Dex to MC Monk. This lets you pick up Eternal Tide Flurry of Blows as an no action encounter power. i.e. one opponent within 2 of you can be pulled to you. Say after you use Flame Spiral...and you even do a little extra damage to them. That also opens up Ki Focuses for you - so then you can Ki Focus your Sorcerer powers & use a weapon of choice, such as a Rapier or Longsword. And you get a skill.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Default Re: New character

    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    I'd definitely take Paladin Armor with Hybrid Talent if the goal is to be a Defender.

    One thing to consider is having a 13 Dex to MC Monk. This lets you pick up Eternal Tide Flurry of Blows as an no action encounter power. i.e. one opponent within 2 of you can be pulled to you. Say after you use Flame Spiral...and you even do a little extra damage to them. That also opens up Ki Focuses for you - so then you can Ki Focus your Sorcerer powers & use a weapon of choice, such as a Rapier or Longsword. And you get a skill.
    ...eh, I'm open to customization and a certain level of optimization, but all choices I make... I'd prefer for them to also make sense. Monk doesn't make sense in the concept I have in mind.

    But yes, I decided to take Paladin Armor with Hybrid Talent. Later, when I (probably) continue with Paragon Hybrid, I'll take Storm Soul.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-12-18 at 09:41 AM.
    My 5th Edition D&D Homebrew:
    Writing blue text written in cursive/italics is me being sarcastic or lighthearted, thus not intentionally offensive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    So,

    "<game that I dislike> will break down when people try to optimize it, whereas this will never happen in <game that I like>."

    I think I've heard this argument now for every conceivable D&D-related pair of <game>s.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: New character

    I'm a big fan of Defender classes, and Dwarves make great defenders.

    Dwarf Lifeblood Warden minors in Leader. Whenever you spend your Second Wind (minor action for a dwarf), an ally gets to spend a healing surge.

    Dwarf Harrier Battlemind is a build I've been wanting to play for awhile.

    Dwarves have an interesting option for Swordmage - the Khopesh. It's both a Heavy Blade and an Axe, so Dwarven Weapon Training nets you a +2 damage with it, AND it's a viable weapon/implement for all Swordmage powers.
    Where do you fit in? (link fixed)

    RedMage Prestige Class!

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night. SET a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

    Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
    "Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."

    Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: New character

    Storm Soul only grants you the Storm extra riders on your powers (and access to some feats/paragon paths maybe).

    Burning your paragon path for that seems questionable.

    On the discussion of Warforged Wardens, there is a feat that basically grants Warforged the Dwarf minor action second wind feature.

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