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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    I find this idea very interesting and I quite like it.
    I'm sorry if this has already been suggested (I didn't read the entire thread) but an idea I had was to throw some Urban Druids into the mix. Have them be more in favour of expansion and urbanisation. Then you can reall have 8 different Druidic sects dominated by (but not exclusively): 1.NG 2.NE 3.LN 4.CN 5.NG Urban 6.NE Urban 7. LNUrban 8.CN Urban

    Of course you might not want to do this unless you plan on having the plot be heavy with Druidic politics and coming up with at least one prominent character in each sect.
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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    I'd go with the superdarwinist and hunter-killer mindsets, which are kinda related. If a neutral good druid works toward growth, a neutral evil druid might work toward decay and death. They might blight entire farms or slay farmers, hunting them down in the fields.


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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    NE Druids are all about destroying anything that threatens nature. A lot of them would probably be purity-obsessed, trying to kill everything "unnatural" - including not only the obvious things like abberations, but also extraplanar creatures, hybrid species (e.g. half-dragons), and overly civilized creatures.

    They might also have a Darwinian views on top of this (if you aren't strong enough to protect yourself, you deserve to die).
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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    I've always viewed Druids thusly:

    The Lawful Neutral druids emphasise the harmony and community of nature; herd beasts are their model. They operate together and seek to spread a perfection of nature, seeing the natural state as that most conducive to life and well-being. The Lawful Druids don't see civilisation as bad, per se - in moderation. Civilisation has its place, and so long as it keeps it place and does not intrude into the wild spaces, they are content. In nature, they'd be the ones seeking to enforce a strict predator/prey balance; they'll hunt down grazing populations when they get too large, and conversely hunt the predators when it is they that have grown too widespread. Spring - with the flourishing of growth and creation of new families it brings - is their season.

    The Neutral Good druids emphasise the beauty and bounty of nature; the mutually beneficial relationship between Plants and Insects is their model. Nature is the best tool for eternal bounty, for, used wisely, nature provides all our needs. They will never take more than they require to survive, and what they have - and know - they share with others to spread nature's bounty. The Good Druids see civilisation as stifling nature's bounty, robbing the land of its ability to provide for the people - but they seek to rectify this through diplomacy and education, showing the people of the cities how their land could better provide and protect them if only they'd let nature take root. Autumn - with the bounty it provides and the beauty it brings - is their Season.

    The Neutral druids emphasise the cycle of nature; the changing seasons are their model. They will tend to reflect the season: focused and expansive in the Spring, wild and untamed in the Summer, warm and giving in the Autumn and cold and uncaring in the Winter. They tend to get along most with the Lawful druids in the Spring, the Chaotic druids in the Summer, the Good druids in the Autumn, and the Evil druids in the Winter. They embrace the cycle of life, extolling the virtues of both life and death and finding the positive return to nature in both violence and peace. They work with civilisation so long as it does not seek to alter nature's natural course; for most, agriculture is fine, so long as what is sown in the Spring is left to flourish in the Summer, is reaped in the Fall, and their fields are left fallow for the Winter.

    The Chaotic Neutral druids emphasise the capriciousness of nature; the Weather, ever unpredictable, is their model. Like the rain, they can be giving - but also destructive. Like the sun, they can nurture - or burn. Like the wind, they provide comfort - or unrest. They tend to be the most hostile to civilisation, because civilisation is a thing of permanence, a blight to the ever changing conditions of nature. They prefer to allow nature to grow wild and free - with all the benefits and drawbacks that entails. Summer - when the animals rut and the weather grows strong - is their season.

    The Neutral Evil druids emphasise the callousness of nature; predators and the carrion eaters are their model. They are those that cull the weak and feast upon ruin - bringing renewal with it. They care little for the value of individuals, for they know those that survive the predations of nature (and themselves) emerge stronger for it. The Evil druids know the value of death, for without death there can be no rebirth - and they shall be the ones to ensure there is enough death to bring the next season's rebirth. Winter - when the land lay fallow and the weak are most cruelly culled - is their season.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Ya he will destroy anything thats not natural, but not really seek it out. CN will just be whismical, and unfriendly towards nonnatural.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Okay, just as a note everyone seems to be defining 'Nature' as meaning animals and plants. I'd just like to bring up that 'Nature' also encompases weather like droughts, storms, and the like as well as disasters like flooding, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, etc.

    Also, the Druid is just a priest of a nature religion. That doesn't mean that they perfectly conform to every aspect of druidism. They can make the wrong decisions, and go down the wrong paths. They can confuse and misinterpret the will of Nature as much as any priest can do so with any other god. Unless your gods are always right there and constantly meddling with the mortal world, priests will get things wrong.
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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    Evil is the harming of life. As such a NE Druid is a nonsense.
    How so, why does a druid need to give a damm about life.
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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    There are some excellent ideas coming out here. Thanks all! I think I have a good general idea of how several of the alignments would approach druidism now.

    NG would promote the interests and well-being of sentient beings and seek to further them in a way that doesn't damage or disrupt nature more than strictly necessary, vs NE who attach no special value to sentient lives and treat a human settlement as no more deserving of consideration than a flock of deer. The "social Darwinism" idea is also intriguing. That probably gives another dichotomy where NE leave civilization alone except to penalize it for encroachment or damage, while NG would be active helping get the most yield from the least land, etc. to avoid the problems in the first place.

    LN would be all about management, rules, and systems, encouraging intervention to keep things running smoothly; CN would prefer to leave matters to look after themselves and primarily react when problems crop up. LN would require a long process of getting "planning permission" to make sure your new town wasn't going to divert too much of the river's water and cause a population crash in the forest; CN would intervene after you'd built and the problem had materialized. Like NG vs NE, LN probably deals more closely with civilization while CN only shows up in town to complain.

    This gives everyone a valuable point of view to bring to councils and a place in the decision-making - I think it'll work nicely. I should note that the alignments are those of individual druids. I don't see there being entire groups defined by alignment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowanomicon View Post
    I'm sorry if this has already been suggested (I didn't read the entire thread) but an idea I had was to throw some Urban Druids into the mix. Have them be more in favour of expansion and urbanisation. Then you can reall have 8 different Druidic sects dominated by (but not exclusively): 1.NG 2.NE 3.LN 4.CN 5.NG Urban 6.NE Urban 7. LNUrban 8.CN Urban
    That's an idea, but I wouldn't see specialist urban druids or rangers as more than a small minority. I would see pro-settlement, pro-civilization feeling as likely concentrated on the LN and NG sides. LN because many there would value a pastoral model of culture and ecological management, with lots of intervention to keep populations stable, etc; NG because cities and settlement and expansion can be viewed as natural for humans, something to be worked around and cleaned up after. You wouldn't scatter herds or topple anthills, however destructive they may be to the land around them; you'd recognize that they'll revert eventually themselves. Similarly you let cities spring up and prosper and decay and fall, and just try to steer their development towards lower impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowanomicon View Post
    Of course you might not want to do this unless you plan on having the plot be heavy with Druidic politics and coming up with at least one prominent character in each sect.
    Nah, not going into that kind of depth. It's just a part of the background of the setting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fhaolan View Post
    Okay, just as a note everyone seems to be defining 'Nature' as meaning animals and plants. I'd just like to bring up that 'Nature' also encompases weather like droughts, storms, and the like as well as disasters like flooding, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, etc.
    Well, weather and disasters aren't really anything you can care for or manage or protect. It's the animals and plants you have to keep from going extinct, etc. On the other hand, I do view protection of natural resources and beauty as an important part of the druids' role; hence my mention of adjudicating access to rivers, for example. Logging rights, crop rotation, all this sort of thing I would see them as having a hand in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fhaolan View Post
    Also, the Druid is just a priest of a nature religion. That doesn't mean that they perfectly conform to every aspect of druidism. They can make the wrong decisions, and go down the wrong paths. They can confuse and misinterpret the will of Nature as much as any priest can do so with any other god. Unless your gods are always right there and constantly meddling with the mortal world, priests will get things wrong.
    Is that really the case? I never got the impression the druids were a religion in D&D so much as a society loosely organized around the protection of nature in the abstract, not the will of any particular deity.

    Krellen: your ideas are interesting but I actually want to specifically avoid linking death and evil.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    No it's not. Nature colonises all the time. You can't do that without excess creation. Volcanic erruptions, overgrown ruins, bloody rabbits are all examples of nature creating more quickly when the oppertunity arises. Normally, of course, there is no new land to colonise and things find an equilibrium, but that goes out the window as soon as there's a Mt St Helen's or whatever. The bare rock will have moss on it before the day is out.
    And nature made the bare rock by destroying what was previously there--that volcano was a part of nature, just as much as the new moss is. There is balance between creation and destruction, that's the natural order. Imbalance is only apparent if you don't look at the whole picture.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Yeah, as several people have said, Neutral Evil druids work just as well as Neutral Good ones. The Darwinist survival-of-the-fittest approach is the obvious model. Others are:

    NE druids try and emulate nature's most ruthless predators, like sharks - the aspect of nature they revere most is the amoral, destructive, uncaring side.

    NE druids revere nature and the natural balance, and pretty much nothing else. They don't see anything wrong with killing people who get in their way, because that doesn't harm nature.

    NE druids do all the normal things druids do, they just happen to be vicious SOBs as well.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Krellen: your ideas are interesting but I actually want to specifically avoid linking death and evil.
    Because death is part of nature, I can see that - but I didn't link death and evil. The Evil druids see death as the purest form of nature (as, after all, all life does come from death) and thus actively spread it - which makes them evil as the SRD definition of the alignment. But that doesn't mean it's always the Evil druid calling for or spreading death. I specifically mentioned that the Lawful druids espouse death as a tool for enforcing "balance" and harmony, such as when populations of predators or prey grow too large; this would apply to humans just as equally, after all. The Chaotic druids, conversely, are just as likely to bring death, destruction and strife as they are to bring joy, merriment and succour - just as weather can be unpredictable in its good and bad effects, even with the same weather type. The Neutral druids might not go around spreading death, but they do view it as wholly natural, and necessary - so they'd probably frown upon revivification magic as violating the natural order. Reincarnation is okay because it is building new life from death.

    Only the Good druids particularly try to avoid and minimise death.

    Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by tainsouvra View Post
    And nature made the bare rock by destroying what was previously there--that volcano was a part of nature, just as much as the new moss is. There is balance between creation and destruction, that's the natural order. Imbalance is only apparent if you don't look at the whole picture.
    Well, let me put it this way: if the DM told you that in the middle of a forest you find a mansion surrounded by a terrace of stone flags and the architecture is from about 300 years before, it's in perfect order, but the place is deserted you would assume that it had been deserted recently. Because you know nature colonises. If the DM then gave you some way to determine that the place was in fact deserted 200 years previously, you would start looking for clues as to what magic was holding back the forest. Because you know nature colonises.

    Certainly the inanimate parts of a world - volcanoes etc - are in balance but that's not the whole picture. The whole picture includes living things - traditionally a primary concern of druids - and that part has a bias to growth.

    Really, the truth is that any alignment other than TN is dubious at best, but NE is the furthest from the reality of nature. And this is not because it is about death or harm, it is because it is about the preference of death and harm as a means to the end. When the end is maintaining the natural world, a preference for death and harm is insanity. The evil druid in OotS certainly seemed mad

    If you allow such people to gain druid powers I think you need to look at where those powers are coming from because it's unlikely to be where the power of other druids come from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    When the end is maintaining the natural world, a preference for death and harm is insanity.
    I can see the evil druid using this as part of their argument for why they are the way they are. Humans have been responsible for a very large number of extinctions, even in ancient times, and I think it's logical to assume that the senient races of D&D function much the same way. Why couldn't an evil druid take the viewpoint that civilized races destroy far too much and work towards creating smaller communties that harm the enviroment to a much smaller extent? They could reason the fastest way to do this is to physically work at killing those that cause the city to band together in the first place (taking out the farmers that support it, blacksmiths, city leaders). Perhaps they want to minimize the deaths -- yes, the farmer and his wife and children died. But how many wolves were killed for trying to eat the farmers chickens? How many gophers were slain for being a 'nuisance'? How many other species of plants were torn from the soil because they competed with the farmers crops?

    I will agree that a neutral druid is the most logical druid, but there are always exceptions. I fail to see how a 'good' druid should result more frequently than an 'evil' druid as the natural world could be considered both equal parts good and evil. While nature has food, shelter, and medicine it also has disease, extinction, and natural disasters. Just as a good druid will take an extreme of nature, an evil druid will do the same. You could have them focus on survival of the fittest, on restoring the balance to what it once was, or even look into fostering new diseases. As long as it's an aspect of the wild it can work for the evil druid.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    The problem is that Evil (note capital letter) is not "not concerned with the morals" - in D&D terms Evil is specifically defined as a moral position, so it's like saying that someone is described as tall without meaning to imply anything about their height.
    The problem is that Evil is a "moral position" in DnD.
    People of "Evil" alignment don't have to beleive they're "evil" or that "evil" must be promoted.

    Thus a NE Druid can protect Nature "by any means possible" and will happily apply "the ends justify the means".

    The local humans are encroaching on the local forest he considers sacrosant? Use a plague spell and some animal growthed animals to wipe out the settlement and make a mini forest of crucified men, women and children. If it stops further encroachment it's fine. Hey, anyone with some smarts knows that settlements need children to survive, so poison the well with a mutagenic or teratogenic poison. After 30 or 40 children a born horribly mutated the settlement will start to fall apart very quickly.

    A NE Druid can even be self-righteous about it. "It's for their own good. I'm actually been kind in the long run."

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    Really, the truth is that any alignment other than TN is dubious at best, but NE is the furthest from the reality of nature. And this is not because it is about death or harm, it is because it is about the preference of death and harm as a means to the end. When the end is maintaining the natural world, a preference for death and harm is insanity. The evil druid in OotS certainly seemed mad.
    Since everything that's born in nature has to die, a preference for death's no more insane than a preference for growth - both are needed. NG and NE druids balance each other out just fine.

    Anyway, if you don't like that evil druid philosophy, there are plenty of others. What about the type of druid that does revere and respect nature, but just doesn't care about anything else? So they'd protect natural environments and species, but they wouldn't think twice about murdering a few travellers for their money and gear, since that doesn't harm the natural world.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Anyway, if you don't like that evil druid philosophy, there are plenty of others. What about the type of druid that does revere and respect nature, but just doesn't care about anything else? So they'd protect natural environments and species, but they wouldn't think twice about murdering a few travellers for their money and gear, since that doesn't harm the natural world.
    I think some of the disagreement here is that nagora would interpret that as a Neutral druid. Disregard for the wellbeing as others, it seems, he classes as neutral; Evil requires some sort of actual commitment to harm and destruction in the general and abstract.

    Am I right, nagora?

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    I think some of the disagreement here is that nagora would interpret that as a Neutral druid. Disregard for the wellbeing as others, it seems, he classes as neutral; Evil requires some sort of actual commitment to harm and destruction in the general and abstract.

    Am I right, nagora?
    Yes. Either a casual preference or a committed pursuit. The logical end point of this for a druid is the destruction of, well, everything. The logical end point of a bias for Good is overpopulation. Neither is really a desirable thing for a druid, but when disaster strikes the latter at least encourages recovery and is slightly more defensible in that sense. But only slightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    Yes. Either a casual preference or a committed pursuit. The logical end point of this for a druid is the destruction of, well, everything. The logical end point of a bias for Good is overpopulation. Neither is really a desirable thing for a druid, but when disaster strikes the latter at least encourages recovery and is slightly more defensible in that sense. But only slightly.
    Right. Well then it seems to me you're using a different definition of Evil than most here, and we're talking at cross purposes to no end.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    The loggers are going deeper into the forest to get more precious woods and at the same time, clearing the edges to make more farmland. In this, they are going further than what was agreed long ago with the druids. Druidic reaction:

    Lawful Neutral druid: "I show them the binding stone on which the promise was engraved and the stone markers that we put up in the forest to show that they are going over the limits. As such, they have to make compensation as indicated in the agreement."

    Neutral Good druid: "It is understandable that their comunity needs to expand, but I must balance the two. I will show them how to use their existing fields better (and cast plant growth spells maybe). Also, I will arrange for loggers to be able to cut down certain trees inside the forest, but only those marked. And they should plant a new border of trees."

    True Neutral druid: "The use of the forest edge as farming land is acceptable, but going deeper into the forest to log is not. I will warn the loggers of consequences if they go further than the edge, and show them the way out if they come."

    Chaotic Neutral druid: "Hehehe, squirrel told me that furless animals are cutting more trees. Squirrel is unhappy with that... Maybe squirrel and my friends can show that they should not come to do such things."

    Neutral Evil druid: "Long ago, men declared and swore on the binding stone that they would not go deeper. If they go deeper into the forest and get lost (obscuring mist), they might awaken (awaken trees) the ancient spirits that protect it. These will be agry and summon their guardians (Summon Natural Ally), so that the blood of those defilers quenches the thirst of the forest...
    Oh, and anyway, they will quickly learn that farm land taken from the forest is... barren (diminish plants) and cannot grow food for them!"

    --
    I'm still unhappy with CN and TN druid behavior, any comments appreciated.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    From the background in the PHB, evil druids (Gnolls in the Book) are tolerated as part of the Druidic tradition, not accepted.

    So they are probably more like bandits, or outcasts pretending to be legitimate society members.
    Plus that way you could get various people that are anti-druid due to these NE druids and a Druid focused inquistion or Druids patrolling to make sure they aren't causing trouble.
    Probably make the society argue
    NG They are EVIL
    LN They are Druids
    N They are part of the Plan
    CN Who cares
    and the rest of the people, especially leaders and farmers saying
    Control them or we will reduce the number of druids ourselves

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Right. Well then it seems to me you're using a different definition of Evil than most here, and we're talking at cross purposes to no end.
    Okay. As far as I'm aware the defintion I'm using has been the D&D definition since 1979 when the moral alignment axis was introduced.

    From the d20SRD:

    "Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit."

    ""Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master."

    Not exactly David Attenbourgh, is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient.
    This is sufficient to make you evil. It is not neutral behaviour. That's the point of contention.

    A druid might revere nature and the natural world as much as any other but have no respect for human or other intelligent life. That druid would be evil. A sect of druids who want to wipe out the civilized races in order to undo the damage they cause and give the world over to wildlife would be clearly evil, but hardly devoted to destruction and creating a barren wasteland.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    This is sufficient to make you evil. It is not neutral behaviour. That's the point of contention.

    A druid might revere nature and the natural world as much as any other but have no respect for human or other intelligent life. That druid would be evil. A sect of druids who want to wipe out the civilized races in order to undo the damage they cause and give the world over to wildlife would be clearly evil, but hardly devoted to destruction and creating a barren wasteland.
    I interpret the "have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient" as in

    Judge: Why did you kill the man in front of you at the supermarket? Had he said or done something to provoke you? Did you do it for some sadistic pleasure?

    Evil person: No, I was just in a hurry to get home and see the match.

    Convenient ~= expedient. Since destruction is proverbally easier than creation, those who seek the easy route are inevitably destructive; which brings me back to a destructive druid being a contradiction.

    I shall leave it there. I think we've all covered all our arguments. For me TN is the logical choice for druids - and it used to be their only option in previous editions - other alignments can be wiggled in by strained arguments about perspective, but since alignment in D&D is objective that seems oddly out of place. Evil is all about destruction and lack of respect for life, and that seems doubly odd for a druid.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Is that really the case? I never got the impression the druids were a religion in D&D so much as a society loosely organized around the protection of nature in the abstract, not the will of any particular deity.
    Even if it is a philosophy, it's still a 'religion'. And if it's a loosely organized society there's even more room for individual druids to have different goals and still believe they're part of the society.

    Now, here's the point of issue. If druids are there to manage and protect nature, that does in fact reduce them down to treehuggers and bearpetters. However, I would think that a druid reveres nature instead. It's a subtle difference, but it makes the druid a bit different.

    "Oh, most high druid, the forest that our lives depend on is dying!"

    "You managed to notice that did you?"

    "The drought has gone on so long, it's killing everything!"

    "Indeed."

    "Uh, you're supposed to manage and protect the forest, aren't you?"

    "I have checked, and the drought is not being caused by magic or outside influence. It is a perfectly natural thing. The land will adapt and become stronger for it. The trees and animals may die, but more resilient life will take it's place. That is the way of nature."

    "But... what about the people who depend on the forest?"

    "Very well, as you obviously wish to make some meaningless guesture."

    *The druid casts a spell. Water pools around the petitioner's feet, quickly soaking into the ground as it drains out of her body leaving her a dry husk.*

    "I shall do that to all your village. That small amount of water will do nothing to prevent the ways of nature, but you will have your guesture and I will be rid of a pack of whining busybodies who dare to order me against the flow of nature."
    Fhaolan by me! Raga avatar by Mephibosheth!

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    First off, choose whether the good/evil axis rotates on A) society or B) the cosmos. A society evil druid would as stated likely be a eugenesist, social darwinist, or feral hunter unable to grasp why eating unprotected children is wrong.

    An evil acted out against the cosmos is slightly different. Options include one with perverse views on the beauty of the 'gods creations'. Have a druid who attempts to bring nature back to society/sentient races through vile breeding schemes leading to an island of dr. monroe type feel. He thinks he's saving the world, but really his experiments are brutalizing the subjects and creating a series of disenfranchized and angry lycantropy subraces.

    Another option is a plant based druid grafter. Botanists graph plants all the time, so make a poison ivy (batman) type who seeks to overthrough consumers and consumerism and make a perfect society of autotrophs. Again, experiments and forces plant graphs upon the innocents to 'cleanse them'.


    To me, being anti-society is more chaotic in any format. To be evil it must twist, pervert, desecrate and leave those he interacts with a nausious, self-loathing feeling rooting in their stomach and soul.

    Just killing folks for the sake of evil plays as Stupid-Evil alignment just as Chaotic-Stupid labels those who act without thought IC and OOC.

    Someone running around killing puppies and screaming, "I am evil!".......meh.

    Someone enacting horrible evils upon the world all in the name of good, now there is a true villain.
    Last edited by Benejeseret; 2007-08-22 at 09:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by Benejeseret View Post
    To me, being anti-society is more chaotic in any format.
    Isn't that just the cannonical definition of Chaotic? What are you getting at?

    Someone enacting horrible evils upon the world all in the name of good, now there is a true villain.
    True, but in D&D you are judged by the system on the enacting, not your words or even thoughts. Miko is an example of someone who believed herself to be LG but the system just said "Nope." and took her paladin powers away. When she died, she apparently did not go to the plane she expected.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    True, but in D&D you are judged by the system on the enacting, not your words or even thoughts. Miko is an example of someone who believed herself to be LG but the system just said "Nope." and took her paladin powers away. When she died, she apparently did not go to the plane she expected.
    Two things - I'm not sure where you're getting info about what plane she ended up on, and she was never shown to have become non-LG, just to have fallen from paladinhood, which has stricter requirements than the alignment itself.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Two things - I'm not sure where you're getting info about what plane she ended up on, and she was never shown to have become non-LG, just to have fallen from paladinhood, which has stricter requirements than the alignment itself.
    When Lord Soon said that he would usher Miko to her destination, as opposed her accompanying him or similar, I took that has meaning that she had drifted to at least a tendency - probably LG(N) IMO - and was going to a different plane. It is debatable, but either way she fell from paladinhood without ever realising why or intending to.

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    True, action defines your alignment in DnD. Very different than the current christian views which (was it luther?) recently moved strongly into the it's-what-you-think/believe realm.

    But that is OK. Is he NE, yes...but he thinks himself NG and that is the key to character motivation, fluff, and three dimensionalism. To get deeper, I really do not like the fallen-from-grace stereotype of Miko...because I do not think they need to fall in order to enact evil. Miko WAS evil right from the get go as soon as she formed her attidute and outlook upon the world. The gods (being only semi-omnipient in DnD) simply did not realize it until her final act of killing.

    To me, a really well writen villain should be indistinguishable from a paladin: self-righteous, determined, passionate, and out of touch with the every day citizen sporting a thick Holy-er-Than-Thou (or simple Better-Than-Thou) demeaner.

    Likewise, to me the best protagonists are sanctified or risen scoundrels/dark characters. This takes them out of a static mould and makes them real, changing, individuals. Wolverine, Spawn, Ghost-Rider, these are the heroes that I grew up on and I always disliked the 'true' heroes like cyclops/superman.
    Why was Herecles such a great heroe, because he started as a rapist and murderer. His punishment lead his way into eventual salvation. All of which has been lost in a post-disney world.

    Bene

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    Default Re: Neutral Evil Druids in (druidic) society

    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    Well, let me put it this way: if the DM told you that in the middle of a forest you find a mansion surrounded by a terrace of stone flags and the architecture is from about 300 years before, it's in perfect order, but the place is deserted you would assume that it had been deserted recently. Because you know nature colonises. If the DM then gave you some way to determine that the place was in fact deserted 200 years previously, you would start looking for clues as to what magic was holding back the forest. Because you know nature colonises.
    And you're now assuming that humans are not a part of nature as well, otherwise you'd realize this is exactly the same situation as the volcano. We already know that Druids don't consider that to be the case, as they do not consider all of mankind's creations inherently unnatural like they do with, say, the undead.

    You are, for the upteenth time, not looking at the whole of nature. Nature balances creation an destruction to reach an ever-changing but stable existance.
    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    Really, the truth is that any alignment other than TN is dubious at best, but NE is the furthest from the reality of nature.
    A claim you keep making and failing utterly to prove.
    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    And this is not because it is about death or harm, it is because it is about the preference of death and harm as a means to the end. When the end is maintaining the natural world, a preference for death and harm is insanity. The evil druid in OotS certainly seemed mad
    The second claim you keep making and failing utterly to prove.
    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    If you allow such people to gain druid powers I think you need to look at where those powers are coming from because it's unlikely to be where the power of other druids come from.
    ...and yet, the rules and everyone elses' games allow them. Are you sure you're not just expressing an unfounded opinion as fact yet again?
    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    Okay. As far as I'm aware the defintion I'm using has been the D&D definition since 1979 when the moral alignment axis was introduced.

    From the d20SRD:

    "Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit."

    ""Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master."
    Please note the bolded portion. That's the neutral evil druid, right there. He has no compassion for those he kills if it furthers the balance of nature.

    To use your format:

    Judge: Why did you kill that man walking through the forest?
    Evil Druid: His village's population is expanding beyond what their current food source can provide. For each new child that is born, a villager must die to preserve the balance.

    He feels absolutely no remorse or compassion for the man he killed, and the man was chosen out of all the villagers simply because he was the most convenient target. This is an evil act, but completely viable for an evil druid, as it is done to preserve the balance of nature.

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