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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    The whole idea of the arms dealers was strange to me.

    They're trying to paint them as equivalent, but the backstory indicates that the new Republic mothballed their army as soon as they could, why are they buying from arms dealers? The FO have got to have their own shipyards considering the stupidly huge projects they keep coming up with. Why are they buying TIEs from an arms dealer?

    And the Resistance is fairly poorly armed in general, so a) how can they be buying anything close to what the FO is, b) given how downsized the new republic is, couldn't they just get army surplus from Leia's connections c) Why do they need dedicated heavy bombers?

    Who is making this arms dealer rich, between an uninterested New Republic, a poorly equipped Resistance, and a self sufficient FO?

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    The New Republic only has a small anti-piracy peacekeeping fleet of its own, yes - but that simply means that individual worlds invest in their own home fleets, not trusting the New Republic to do an adequate job - and turning to arms companies to get the military resources they need.

    The First Order, until very recently, has been trying to build up its military resources secretly - trying to make sure the Republic doesn't find out that it is cheating when it comes to treaties that prevent them from building the biggest stuff. Possibly, they build the illegal stuff themselves, and buy the legal stuff from the same dealers that are selling to republic Planetary Defence Forces.

    Not to mention that the two don't control the whole galaxy between them - there are plenty of independent worlds that refuse to join either side, and need weapons to protect themselves (or invade other independent worlds).
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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorChain View Post
    If I was the emperor I would win Star Wars with my ships that would all be painted black so they'd be helluva hard to hit and then I'd just kill off the enemy big ships with my FTL torpedoes.
    Someone with real science credentials check me on this, but wouldn't painting the ships black mean absorbing a heckuva lot of heat? I always understood that one reason so many real-life spacecraft are white is to ensure they absorb as little energy as possible, which would otherwise be hard on the crew and equipment. True/false?

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Someone with real science credentials check me on this, but wouldn't painting the ships black mean absorbing a heckuva lot of heat? I always understood that one reason so many real-life spacecraft are white is to ensure they absorb as little energy as possible, which would otherwise be hard on the crew and equipment. True/false?

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Unless theres some property about the white paint beyond being white that affects the heat absorption, that would only affect the amount of heat absorbed from light. That's certainly nontrivial amounts of heat, but generally not representative of anywhere near the maximum amount a spaceship can be expected to encounter.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorChain View Post
    If I was the emperor I would win Star Wars with my ships that would all be painted black so they'd be helluva hard to hit and then I'd just kill off the enemy big ships with my FTL torpedoes.
    Yeah, the pink-haired-lady-general's kamikaze run is cool and and all, but it immediately raises the question of why all their weapon systems aren't based on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The Republic took back the Galaxy for 30 years though. How can they be the poor ones in this scenario?

    I will say in fairness that I saw it for the fourth time today, and with every viewing, the things I didn't like bother me less and less. Its right behind the original trilogy for me now. And every time it cuts to Luke on the rock during his duel, I get shivers. That was absolutely fantastic.
    It's fun to speculate about the logistics and economics involved here, sure, but I think there's a broader problem here.

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    In this model, evil is a force that sits diametrically opposed to good. In order for one to exist, the other must exist as well. Evil is what gives good its meaning, and in fact one can simply define one by the other: to be good is be not-evil, and to be evil is to be not-good. When playing with this option, evil plays a vital role in society and cannot be eliminated without dire consequences. For example, when the Jedi eliminate the Sith Lords, they set themselves up for an even more powerful Sith Lord to rise and kill them all, ushering in a new order of Evil, which is in turn later demolished by the calling out of a powerful Jedi who can defeat it. Neutrality is the rule of the day in this model, in the sense that evil and good will always be in the midst of trumping each other in an effort to “win”, a goal that is as meaningless as it is impossible...

    Pit Falls: It can be pretty cool to have a party that has an assassin, a druid, and a champion of light in it – there's a lot of early D&D that has that as virtually the iconic party – but if the great game between Good and Evil is an inherently pointless game, that can make the story of your characters seem pretty banal. It's a line that can be hard to walk. It's just plain difficult to simultaneously have any individual attempt to destroy the world be important while having it be built into the contract that there will be another one tomorrow.
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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Yeah, the pink-haired-lady-general's kamikaze run is cool and and all, but it immediately raises the question of why all their weapon systems aren't based on that.
    Probably because capital ships don't grow on trees. For a weapon system like that to work it needs to accelerate into hyperspace through the enemy ship, which means its only good as a capital ship buster or against immobile targets, and it needs to be big enough to make the enemy ship go boom instead of just going splat on the hull (youre never going to bring down a brick wall by hitting it with a tomato, no matter how fast its going). Youre also only ever going to get one shot with it, which is detrimental to its usefulness as a weapon.

    It looked really cool, but it required somebody to kill themselves to use and it would have been shot down very quickly if the First Order clued in faster that she was going to ramming speed.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Probably because capital ships don't grow on trees. For a weapon system like that to work it needs to accelerate into hyperspace through the enemy ship, which means its only good as a capital ship buster or against immobile targets, and it needs to be big enough to make the enemy ship go boom instead of just going splat on the hull (youre never going to bring down a brick wall by hitting it with a tomato, no matter how fast its going). Youre also only ever going to get one shot with it, which is detrimental to its usefulness as a weapon.

    It looked really cool, but it required somebody to kill themselves to use and it would have been shot down very quickly if the First Order clued in faster that she was going to ramming speed.
    Throwing hyperdrives on asteroids would work well though. Good for taking out incoming fleets or just destroying a planet without needing a Death Star.

    Also hypedrive shipkiller torpedos would definitely be a thing. Even if they just take out the bridge it works fine especially since bridges seem super exposed in all scifi for some reason. No one is visually looking at things, why arent the bridges right in the damn center of the ship? I actually can't think of any TV or movie ship where that's the case.
    Last edited by Chen; 2017-12-24 at 08:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Throwing hyperdrives on asteroids would work well though. Good for taking out incoming fleets or just destroying a planet without needing a Death Star.
    You still run into the same problem of having to accelerate to lightspeed through an enemy ship, which means holding still while sublight engines move you into the correct position and hoping they don't just shoot your oddly moving rock out of position. It works as a surprise tactic, but as soon as you start doing it with any regularity, they'll just deploy fighters and bombers to shoot down any suspiciously moving space rocks.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    I've been reading a lot of science fiction, and I've noticed some things in book spaceships that rarely translate to the big screen.

    The first is simple and practical shapes. Early spaceships tend towards teardrops with engines on the flatter end, later ones are more often cylinders (with optional centripetal gravity rings) with engines on one end, or occasionally spheres with engines at one point and the rest covered with manoeuvring thrusters and sensors (and possibly weapons). If they're really adventurous you might have a cone, but more complicated and plane like shapes are limited to interface vehicles. The first real Space Opera features a spherical ship equipped with a reactionless drive and four machine guns.

    The other is central bridges. Even back in the Lensman days ships weren't piloted by looking out of the window, you used your plate! Sensor images being sent to screens, which are them used to pilot the ship and make tactical decisions from under lots of structure.

    As an idea for how a space bomber might work, the Moscow class ships in the Commonwealth saga are massive ships which are essentially a tiny life support cabin on top of a (rarely used) reaction engine and FTL drive that is then surrounded by armour, force field generators, and thirty missiles (which fly FTL but have to drop into realspace to do damage). They have other armaments, but those are mainly for defence, and even more destructive missiles get added later. Very different from the earlier scout ships (armed mainly with beam weapons IIRC) they essentially function as front line warships when not attacking targets.
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Probably because capital ships don't grow on trees. For a weapon system like that to work it needs to accelerate into hyperspace through the enemy ship, which means its only good as a capital ship buster or against immobile targets, and it needs to be big enough to make the enemy ship go boom instead of just going splat on the hull (youre never going to bring down a brick wall by hitting it with a tomato, no matter how fast its going).
    No, if you accelerate a tomato to lightspeed it can do all kinds of things.

    I think the situation is pretty analogous to fighter jets vs. guided missiles, in that guided missiles are superior and fighter jets are obsolete, or at least would be if the SW universe had actual guidance systems for their weaponry. But in theory, if you can cram a hyperdrive onto an X-Wing (which I think is canon), then you can build an autonomous suicide-droid of similar size with a hull design/warhead optimised for killing ships. The cost/benefit there is pretty compelling.

    The most effective counter-measure to that is to not build massive capital ships, but that greatly increases fuel costs and other forms of logistic overhead, which by all appearances would probably shift things in favour of the guerilla underdogs. Militarily, the First Order/Empire vs. Rebellion/Resistance seem to be rather like the Union vs. the Confederacy- the latter win most of the tactical battles but the former can apply superior numbers and industrial output, grinding the enemy down through strategic attrition and scorched earth policies.

    ...well, that went to a pretty dark place. Moving on.
    Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2017-12-24 at 09:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    No, if you accelerate a tomato to lightspeed it can do all kinds of things.

    I think the situation is pretty analogous to fighter jets vs. guided missiles, in that guided missiles are superior and fighter jets are obsolete, or at least would be if the SW universe had actual guidance systems for their weaponry. But in theory, if you can cram a hyperdrive onto an X-Wing (which I think is canon), then you can build an autonomous suicide-droid of similar size with a hull design/warhead optimised for killing ships. The cost/benefit there is pretty compelling.

    The most effective counter-measure to that is to not build massive capital ships, but that greatly increases fuel costs and other forms of logistic overhead, which by all appearances would probably shift things in favour of the guerilla underdogs. Militarily, the First Order/Empire vs. Rebellion/Resistance seem to be rather like the Union vs. the Confederacy- the latter win most of the tactical battles but the former can apply superior numbers and industrial output, grinding the enemy down through strategic attrition and scorched earth policies.

    ...well, that went to a pretty dark place. Moving on.
    They call it lightspeed, but hyperspace isn't actually just going FTL. Once you exit real space, the physics changes completely, and they don't really elaborate on how something interacts with real space in hyperspace to my knowledge, other than that getting close to planets and stars is generally bad. There is a period of deceleration coming out of hyperspace, but since the Falcon was able to do so in the middle of a meteor shower and not immediately die, the actual speed and physical distance traveled seems to be fairly minimal.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    No, if you accelerate a tomato to lightspeed it can do all kinds of things.
    Exactly. I was about to say something very similar.

    For an analogy, think of it like jumping into a pool off a diving board vs jumping into a river off the Golden Gate Bridge. You're still you, it's still water, but you die off the bridge. When you're going slow, the water moves out of the way easily. When your going significantly faster, it turned out that you move out of the way more easily than the water does (this is a very, very bad way of describing what happens, but eh, it works).

    Anyway, these hyperdrive equipped tomatoes don't need to make the calculations for hyperspace, which appears to be the only thing keeping them from jumping instantaneously. And they're not just good against capital ships; smaller cruisers can also go down easy, since they still have some good size to 'em. Get some aimable torpedo tubes, a nice line-of-sight scope, and a crate of produce with the most advanced engines in the Galaxy attached to them, and you got yourself a fleet killer.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

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    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    There is a period of deceleration coming out of hyperspace, but since the Falcon was able to do so in the middle of a meteor shower and not immediately die, the actual speed and physical distance traveled seems to be fairly minimal.
    Maybe somebody could guesstimate the speed and distance for the "Deceleration at the Forest Moon" sequence? We know the diameter of the Forest Moon in the newcanon (4900km) - compare the frame where the Forest Moon first becomes visible, to the final frame in the same sequence, and very rough figures for distance, and initial speed, may be obtainable.
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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Maybe somebody could guesstimate the speed and distance for the "Deceleration at the Forest Moon" sequence? We know the diameter of the Forest Moon in the newcanon (4900km) - compare the frame where the Forest Moon first becomes visible, to the final frame in the same sequence, and very rough figures for distance, and initial speed, may be obtainable.
    The least amount of deceleration distance is Starkiller Base, actually. Since the Falcon needs to go through the shield at lightspeed to actually pass through.

    Using the incredibly irrelevant and vague measure of space starting at 100 miles for Earth, I'm going to say that the shield is at the space line, so the deceleration distance is <100mi.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2017-12-24 at 10:00 AM.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

    Cuthalion makes great avatars. Like my Silver Dragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Considering how small Starkiller Base is (660km diameter - much smaller than Earth) and how tight the "haze-layer" of atmosphere is in most shots, I'd say that there (unlike at Endor) the deceleration distance is tiny - much less than 100 km - more like 1.

    Starkiller Base scene seems like an oddball - the ships at Endor look like they're decelerating over a somewhat longer distance.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-12-24 at 10:06 AM.
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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Considering how small Starkiller Base is (660km diameter - much smaller than Earth) and how tight the "haze-layer" of atmosphere is in most shots, I'd say that there (unlike at Endor) the deceleration distance is tiny - much less than 100 km - more like 1.

    Starkiller Base scene seems like an oddball - the ships at Endor look like they're decelerating over a somewhat longer distance.
    It could be that they are. The Falcon is customized out the wazoo, and is a smuggler's ship to boot, so it wouldn't surprise me if Han had it rigged to be able to come to a full stop out of hyperspace much faster than is normal in case he fell into an ambush or something.

    Or maybe the ships at Endor just don't care, so they aren't wasting resources trying to avoid moving however many meters forward.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    You still run into the same problem of having to accelerate to lightspeed through an enemy ship, which means holding still while sublight engines move you into the correct position and hoping they don't just shoot your oddly moving rock out of position. It works as a surprise tactic, but as soon as you start doing it with any regularity, they'll just deploy fighters and bombers to shoot down any suspiciously moving space rocks.
    You mean like how they deployed fighters to kill the Resistance? Oh wait.
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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    The Falcon comes out of hyperspace on Starkiller base and is moving at roughly airplane like speeds from the movement over the terrain we see. Im betting most of the speeds we see in star wars are visually WAY off than what they should be. Moving at stellar speeds is too fast. You'd probably end up just seeing a blur if ships were moving at the speeds written in various resources (tech manuals and the like). This isnt just a star wars issue but likely a general sci fi issue.

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    The Falcon comes out of hyperspace on Starkiller base and is moving at roughly airplane like speeds from the movement over the terrain we see. Im betting most of the speeds we see in star wars are visually WAY off than what they should be. Moving at stellar speeds is too fast. You'd probably end up just seeing a blur if ships were moving at the speeds written in various resources (tech manuals and the like). This isnt just a star wars issue but likely a general sci fi issue.
    True. At least for Star Wars accelerations. Speeds, on the other hand, are often on the low side, when they come up. The "maximum speed in atmosphere" if taken literally, would cause a lot of problems - suggesting that once they get high up, the speed limit no longer applies.

    Getting from Yavin IV to the Death Star on the far side of the gas giant Yavin, in a few minutes, requires very fast acceleration (followed by very fast deceleration to match the Death Star's speed).
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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Without aGrav or inertial dampening most ships are probably accelerating at no more than 1g for long periods, likely at 2-3g for short intervals. A crewmber or passenger who's strapped into an acceleration couch might survive 10-20g for a very short time, but they won't be able to do much. Therefore in these cars we can some that standard acceleration is a bit over or under 1g (maybe, in since universes ships tend to accelerate at fractional GS), but they might have a maximum acceleration of 3g+.

    With either of the technologies you can increase your acceleration, up to the maximum fields strength you can create (e.g. 5%inertia should allow a comfortable 20g, creating 3g in the opposite direction to thrust would allow you to cruise at 3g).
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

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    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post

    With either of the technologies you can increase your acceleration, up to the maximum fields strength you can create (e.g. 5%inertia should allow a comfortable 20g, creating 3g in the opposite direction to thrust would allow you to cruise at 3g).
    The newcanon, like Legends, has occasionally referenced very high accelerations for fighters (which would suggest that inertial dampening is very good and can reduce acceleration experienced by the pilot, to a fraction of 1 percent.)

    Specifically, the canon pages on Wookieepedia for TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors, TIE Advanced x1 - all give over 4000G.

    My guess is that these are used for rapid transit - but are too high to use in combat, because the reflexes of the pilots just aren't up to manoeuvring, firing and hitting at these accelerations.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-12-24 at 05:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The newcanon, like Legends, has occasionally referenced very high accelerations for fighters (which would suggest that inertial dampening is very good and can reduce acceleration experienced by the pilot, to a fraction of 1 percent.)

    Specifically, the canon pages on Wookieepedia for TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors, TIE Advanced x1 - all give over 4000G.

    My guess is that these are used for rapid transit - but are too high to use in combat, because the reflexes of the pilots just aren't up to manoeuvring, firing and hitting at these accelerations.
    Yeah, part of the unwritten bit of that post was 'both of these technologies exist in Star Wars'.

    I also suspect you're right about accelerations, most are likely 5-10g in combat. Just because you can accelerate that fast doesn't mean you have to.
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The New Republic only has a small anti-piracy peacekeeping fleet of its own, yes - but that simply means that individual worlds invest in their own home fleets, not trusting the New Republic to do an adequate job - and turning to arms companies to get the military resources they need.

    The First Order, until very recently, has been trying to build up its military resources secretly - trying to make sure the Republic doesn't find out that it is cheating when it comes to treaties that prevent them from building the biggest stuff. Possibly, they build the illegal stuff themselves, and buy the legal stuff from the same dealers that are selling to republic Planetary Defence Forces.

    Not to mention that the two don't control the whole galaxy between them - there are plenty of independent worlds that refuse to join either side, and need weapons to protect themselves (or invade other independent worlds).
    Okay, but that leaves the whole 'selling to both sides' moral a bit flat when the republic doesn't want a fleet and the Resistance is fairly poorly armed.

    Probably because capital ships don't grow on trees. For a weapon system like that to work it needs to accelerate into hyperspace through the enemy ship, which means its only good as a capital ship buster or against immobile targets, and it needs to be big enough to make the enemy ship go boom instead of just going splat on the hull (youre never going to bring down a brick wall by hitting it with a tomato, no matter how fast its going). Youre also only ever going to get one shot with it, which is detrimental to its usefulness as a weapon.

    It looked really cool, but it required somebody to kill themselves to use and it would have been shot down very quickly if the First Order clued in faster that she was going to ramming speed.
    It's never going to be a routine tactic, but it pretty much removes the value of any of the Imperials' 'big dangerous ships'. Capital ships are expensive, but the Rebel alliance is willing to take casualties if the goal is important enough (just look at Rogue One) It's probably not worth it for an ISD, but it's worth it for a Death Star or a Supremacy

    A 10km deep hole in the DS might not completely destroy it, but it would certainly do a lot of damage, especially when you have the plans and can make sure that the impact hits somewhere it can destroy the command centre or wreck the planet killing laser beyond repair.

    If it's possible, then it's one of the biggest threats to any big ship, and it would be one of the first things raised by engineers whenever anyone suggested building the Supremacy or the Death Star. So, they'd either have a solution, drill absolutely everyone in anti-lightspeed ramming procedures, or have a running policy to never ever ever ever take the things into combat.

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    It's never going to be a routine tactic, but it pretty much removes the value of any of the Imperials' 'big dangerous ships'. Capital ships are expensive, but the Rebel alliance is willing to take casualties if the goal is important enough (just look at Rogue One) It's probably not worth it for an ISD, but it's worth it for a Death Star or a Supremacy

    A 10km deep hole in the DS might not completely destroy it, but it would certainly do a lot of damage, especially when you have the plans and can make sure that the impact hits somewhere it can destroy the command centre or wreck the planet killing laser beyond repair.

    If it's possible, then it's one of the biggest threats to any big ship, and it would be one of the first things raised by engineers whenever anyone suggested building the Supremacy or the Death Star. So, they'd either have a solution, drill absolutely everyone in anti-lightspeed ramming procedures, or have a running policy to never ever ever ever take the things into combat.
    I mean, the Death Star II ate the entire Executor crashing into it and didn't blink. That certainly suggests that they can take a hit.
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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I mean, the Death Star II ate the entire Executor crashing into it and didn't blink. That certainly suggests that they can take a hit.
    Falling slowly onto it, not accelerating past lightspeed. Velocity is the bugger factor here. Also is everyone forgetting that Hyperdrive are rather inexpensive compared to the rest of a vessel? Why is no one just slapping a Hyperdrive onto a large hunk of dense material and shooting it like a torpedo?
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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    A 10km deep hole in the DS might not completely destroy it, but it would certainly do a lot of damage, especially when you have the plans and can make sure that the impact hits somewhere it can destroy the command centre or wreck the planet killing laser beyond repair.
    Unless that hole was right in the superlaser focusing bowl I don't think it would have much of an effect. The size of DS2 is disputed, but the most believable figure generally given is 200km. A 10km hole in that would only penetrate a tenth of the way through to the centre, and since the outer layers of the battle station are the habitable areas with all the important stuff being buried deeper inside, the chances of actually causing a crippling blow that way are pretty remote. I mean, I'm not going to completely discount the possibility--the Empire are proven to be stupid enough to have a 17km long star destroyer with only one place it can be controlled from, and they also set up a trap for the Rebels at the DS2 while (a) actually leaking them the *real* plans and (b) not thinking to block off the obvious routes of access for starfighters from the surface to the reactor core, so anything's possible.

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    the Empire are proven to be stupid enough to have a 17km long star destroyer with only one place it can be controlled from
    In the film, only 16 seconds pass between the A-Wing destroying the Executor's bridge and the ship impacting on the Death Star's surface. There are cuts to different perspectives, but it appears as though the movie-time over which that sequence occurs is meant to be roughly "real" time. 16 seconds is not a lot of time to recover from a sudden, unexpected loss of the command staff, so I would suggest that that scene should not be treated as conclusive evidence of a lack of secondary command positions elsewhere within the ship.

    they also set up a trap for the Rebels at the DS2 while (a) actually leaking them the *real* plans and (b) not thinking to block off the obvious routes of access for starfighters from the surface to the reactor core, so anything's possible.
    They need to bait their trap, they need the bait to appear credible enough so as to be worth taking, and they need the trap to either be subtle enough not to be obvious or they need the bait to be so worth taking that the Rebel fleet will come regardless of whether or not they correctly conclude that the Death Star II is a trap. Leaking the real plans is a way to do that - it allows the Rebellion to know of the project's existence, recognize that it would be impractical to defeat the Death Star II once completed, and convince themselves that they have a viable means of destroying it if they are able to strike soon enough. It also means that the Empire did not need to come up with a convincing set of fake plans, or with a set of plans incomplete enough to conceal critical vulnerabilities but not so obviously doctored as to bring the plans' validity into question.

    Also, I'd note that the movie makes it rather clear that the Death Star II's construction was behind schedule, and while its superlaser is operational by the time the Rebel fleet arrives, it's still not clearly the case that the work is actually back on schedule by the time the Rebel fleet arrives. It's possible that the passageway down which the Millenium Falcon and the starfighters flew was meant to have been blocked in some manner by the time that the Rebel fleet had arrived. Regardless, its existence or lack thereof would have been irrelevant if the garrison protecting the shield generator on the sanctuary moon had not failed - it's strongly implied that the Rebel fleet could not approach the Death Star as long as the shield remained active.

    A 10km hole in that would only penetrate a tenth of the way through to the centre, and since the outer layers of the battle station are the habitable areas with all the important stuff being buried deeper inside, the chances of actually causing a crippling blow that way are pretty remote.
    Assuming Wookieepedia's figure of ~1.2 million crewmen is "correct," I seriously doubt that the habitable area on the Death Star I is anything like 10km thick, regardless of which of the various diameters that have at times been proposed for the first Death Star you choose to regard as accurate. I don't disagree with the contention that it is possible that there is a layer at least 10km thick where even severe damage will not seriously impair the Death Star's primary function, but we have no real way of evaluating that aside from noting that the original Death Star's defenses were geared to repel an attack by something larger than a starfighter - presumably capital ships along the lines of the Mon Calamari cruisers, which one would suppose have firepower roughly comparable to standard Imperial Star Destroyers given that they appear to be roughly comparable in size in Return of the Jedi.

    Also is everyone forgetting that Hyperdrive are rather inexpensive compared to the rest of a vessel?
    Your source for this is...? There's no strong evidence one way or the other in the movies, at least not that I can recall, and the scene in The Phantom Menace where Qui-Gon stakes the royal yacht against a hyperdrive and a slave could be argued as evidence for either side.
    Last edited by Aeson; 2017-12-25 at 02:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    16 seconds is not a lot of time to recover from a sudden, unexpected loss of the command staff, so I would suggest that that scene should not be treated as conclusive evidence of a lack of secondary command positions elsewhere within the ship.
    If there was any secondary command capability anywhere else on the ship then it should have been capable of taking over primary command instantly, or there would be no point in it existing in the first place--the fact the Executor could be destroyed within 20 seconds of losing its bridge actually reinforces that, because when such a possibility exists you *guard against it*.

    The same applies to the Death Star plans. Let's assume you're right and that a galaxy-spanning Empire with billions of people under its control and possessing computer technology we can only dream of couldn't come up with realistic fake plans. Given how tiny the passageways the Millennium Falcon and the other ships were negotiating were, all the Empire needed to do was to drop a barricade in the way--a barricade that could have been made of debris from the construction operation; it didn't need to be structural, just solid enough to stay in place until the Falcon flew into it at full speed and wiped itself out. Not doing that was simple arrogant stupidity, and is not excused by "Well, if the Rebels never destroyed the shield generator there wouldn't have been a problem".

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    If there was any secondary command capability anywhere else on the ship then it should have been capable of taking over primary command instantly, or there would be no point in it existing in the first place--the fact the Executor could be destroyed within 20 seconds of losing its bridge actually reinforces that, because when such a possibility exists you *guard against it*.

    The same applies to the Death Star plans. Let's assume you're right and that a galaxy-spanning Empire with billions of people under its control and possessing computer technology we can only dream of couldn't come up with realistic fake plans. Given how tiny the passageways the Millennium Falcon and the other ships were negotiating were, all the Empire needed to do was to drop a barricade in the way--a barricade that could have been made of debris from the construction operation; it didn't need to be structural, just solid enough to stay in place until the Falcon flew into it at full speed and wiped itself out. Not doing that was simple arrogant stupidity, and is not excused by "Well, if the Rebels never destroyed the shield generator there wouldn't have been a problem".

    Given that the Executor seems to lose engine power or otherwise becomes unable to resist the gravitational pull of the Death Star, id suggest that there was more than just a loss of command going on with the crash.

    And of course the Emperor was arrogant. Were you paying attention at all? The rebels were never meant to be able to get anywhere near the actual Death Star, and if it weren't for some fairly absurd luck on Endor, they wouldn't have.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Rant about Terrible Spaceships in Sci-Fi/Sci-Fantasy: Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Given that the Executor seems to lose engine power or otherwise becomes unable to resist the gravitational pull of the Death Star, id suggest that there was more than just a loss of command going on with the crash.
    I tended to think it was the gravitational pull of the Moon, exerting its pull through the Death Star - they'e all in a line - Endor, then Death Star, then on the far side of the Death Star, the space battle.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    If there was any secondary command capability anywhere else on the ship then it should have been capable of taking over primary command instantly, or there would be no point in it existing in the first place--the fact the Executor could be destroyed within 20 seconds of losing its bridge actually reinforces that, because when such a possibility exists you *guard against it*.
    The Incredible Cross Sections book for TFA (Star Destroyer Finalizer section) did emphasise that they have learned their lesson about having adequate bridge backup - stressing that unlike the Executor, the Finalizer has a proper backup bridge.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-12-25 at 05:45 PM.
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