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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Killed a PC - was it unfair? Should I retcon it?

    Quote Originally Posted by vasilidor View Post
    How did I come across as annoying? just asking.
    Asking "Are you sure you want to do that?" is basically the equivalent of saying "Well that's a stupid thing to do. Do you really want to do that stupid thing, idiot?"

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    LordCdrMilitant's Avatar

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    Default Re: Killed a PC - was it unfair? Should I retcon it?

    Yes it was unfair.

    First off, the contingency "crush them if the caster dies" is an entirely unintuitive effect, especially if the wizard keeps shooting them, and entirely reeks of "I just wanted to kill you because you didn't follow the rails." After all, if he was just going to kill him why not kill him right away?

    There are ways it could have worked, such as having the wizard threaten that the cage will kill their friend if they hurt him, which actually would have made sense, as a hostage situation, or by straight up using a kill spell.


    However, retconning it is probably a bad idea.
    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Killed a PC - was it unfair? Should I retcon it?

    Quote Originally Posted by vasilidor View Post
    ah, OK. Basically my point was did you provide information for the player to know that the course of action he was engaging in would likely lead to his demise? if so you are golden ad without any reason to feel guilty. also if he simply tromped on without giving you the time to provide such info (as I have seen happen in a recent game I played in) you are still golden. any person or persons who try to ring bells in the middle of a stealth mission deserve for those bells to be mimics.
    I agree this is the crux of it. But I'd go a slightly different way and say "did you give the players the information that the characters would have." Key to this, to me, is what the wizard was doing when they entered the room - if it wasn't specified, it might well be assumed that the wizard was casting, which would likely be incorrect.

    Now, you can say that the players shouldn't assume, and I mostly agree with that - however, I do believe it's the GM to make sure that the players do have the information that the characters have readily available. The characters can see what the wizard is doing, and so the players should know of it, and if the players make actions that the GM believes are due to having an incorrect perception, I do believe it's the GM's job to correct that misconception.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    Yes it was unfair.

    First off, the contingency "crush them if the caster dies" is an entirely unintuitive effect, especially if the wizard keeps shooting them, and entirely reeks of "I just wanted to kill you because you didn't follow the rails." After all, if he was just going to kill him why not kill him right away?

    There are ways it could have worked, such as having the wizard threaten that the cage will kill their friend if they hurt him, which actually would have made sense, as a hostage situation, or by straight up using a kill spell.

    However, retconning it is probably a bad idea.
    The cube thing was just refluffing a special which was already a save or die, so I don't really have an issue with that, though I agree it's unintuitive.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    guileus's Avatar

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    Default Re: Killed a PC - was it unfair? Should I retcon it?

    If anyone is following this, we played another game yesterday, the first after the Sir Jaden Incident (the one I described where Sir Jaden got crushed to death).

    Most players understood that the death was warranted, including an old-school player that is joining the campaign while he is back at our home town Valencia (his profession is an on and off thing that requires him to live abroad most of the year). Another of our players has left the campaign for the time being, as he has relocated to Madrid, to live with his girlfriend. So Sir Jaden's player took his PC (Oblivio) temporarily until they went back to their headquarters and we could narrate a new character joining them etc.

    He basically played it like Sir Jaden 2.0... so yeah, the problem is with him. Oblivio went from a young (15 years old) idealist squire/minstrel to ruthless ambitious and cruel swordsman, to the point that another player was joking that the spirit of the evil ex-monk/wizard they had killed had possessed Oblivio.

    I even let them a chance to somehow bring Sir Jaden back: in the tower they found a series of magical mirrors, each one having a special weird effect. One of them, the most interesting one, showed the "Otherworld", a reflection of our world, set in an indeterminate past (depending on who, it could be from 3 months ago to 90 years ago). If people in our world touched the mirror, his otherworld self could cross the mirror and come here. Oblivio touched it and crossed the mirror, so Otherworld Oblivio (appearing as identical to him but with different eye color) ran out from the mirror and tried to escape.
    (I'll finish this in a bit)

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    guileus's Avatar

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    Default Re: Killed a PC - was it unfair? Should I retcon it?

    So the PCs finally managed to capture Otherworld Oblivio, throw him into the mirror and Real Oblivio comes back. They also carried the mass of crushed steel and flesh that used to be Sir Jaden in front of the mirror and could see a blonde, Otherworld Sir Jaden, pleading for it to touch the it from beyond, so that it could escape that world. They finally decided against it.
    But Oblivio (who, remember, was being played by the player who used to play Sir Jaden) kept telling the rest of the party to take those mirrors with them, as they could "conquer the world" with them. I guess old habits never die... he's just an incorregible powergamer I guess. My only worry is that the other players (especially one of them) sometimes get fed up with his constant quest to amass power and anything resembling magic (in a world where I've made it abundantly clear that magic = forbidden knowledge).

    My plan is to create his next character, as to put him on a leash. Any ideas for a character that could steer him out of that way?

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Killed a PC - was it unfair? Should I retcon it?

    Sorry that is not power-gaming it is entirely in character when there is something that looks obviously usable to try to use it.
    I mean when you give a super sword of doom that ends the world to a npc he naturally thinks it is super cool and try to use it to end the world.
    Why would the pc killing it not be vulnerable to the desire of using it and then start working toward ending the world?
    The same way with mirror that creates people if I saw such a thing in real life I would try to abuse the heck out of it.(I mean we do not have enough people in real life so magically getting adults that are already educated would be cool)
    There is a reason why there is so many corrupt people planning stuff that might end the world: powerful forbidden magic corrupts.
    So either tell him you want his characters to have incorruptible hearts or he will keep making characters that ends up being corrupted by power.
    I mean there is people who gets out of their house and thinks "I will kill people for getting loot,fame and becoming more powerful and maybe saying the world" Those people becomes adventurers.
    If someone thinks "I want to save the world because I do not want the world to be destroyed" he will probably not become a long lasting adventurer.
    Last edited by noob; 2018-01-08 at 10:51 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    guileus's Avatar

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    Default Re: Killed a PC - was it unfair? Should I retcon it?

    I understand, but in the context of being on a quest, sent by a pious monk who said "please save that old monastery of my order from the unholy presence that inhabits it", after meeting an old monk that turned evil wizard... it was out of character (for that character, a teenager minstrel who, when played by his old player, was all about doing good etc) to think "hey maybe we have the equivalent of a nuclear weapon for our just founded kingdom".

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Killed a PC - was it unfair? Should I retcon it?

    A lot of people thinks that with weapon X he might do good even if that is wrong.
    There is a lot of stories of villains that use weapon X while they were good before because they made a mistake and believed that weapon X would solve problems.
    And here that mirror is not a weapon it is a tool that could make civilization advance by thousand steps by making countless productive people if used right(there is probably tricks to get back the original in addition to the copy or communicating with the alternate past thus having twice as much intellectual production or other cool shenanigans).
    The list of cool ways to use that mirror to increase the productivity of humanity is super long.
    The problem is that we are in a story and that something will go wrong because else it would not be a story about forbidden evil magic but maybe his character believes that he could manage to avoid trouble.
    Also what did his character see while he was in the mirror?
    Maybe what he did see convinced him to try to use the mirror for what he believes to be good.
    I mean if you are in an alternate past and that it looks like if the people in that alternate past are behaving normally then it looks obvious that finding a way to connect both worlds more reliably would be very productive(twice the number of people interacting with each other and possibly you could manage efficiently most of the dangers in the alternate past thanks to the knowledge you have from the present)(but that would still be a bad idea since we are in a story and all the ideas that are awesome in real life are infinitely bad ideas who cause the end of the world in stories).
    Or maybe the experience he had in the mirror world broke him and made him corruptible.
    Basically that opens tons of plot options if the players agrees with making a coherent story with you.
    Or the player does not wants to use the mirror in a way coherent with his character and does not wants to explain why his character changed and then it is just bad.
    Oh and also his character never had access to overwhelming power before so it might still just be that his character is corruptible: you can be good and want to do right things(and feel obligated because an old person asked you to do the right thing) and then become corrupted the instant you get power.
    Last edited by noob; 2018-01-08 at 11:17 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Killed a PC - was it unfair? Should I retcon it?

    Quote Originally Posted by guileus View Post

    My plan is to create his next character, as to put him on a leash. Any ideas for a character that could steer him out of that way?
    If the problem is the player, not the character, IC solutions won't work. He temporarily adopted someone else's character and immediately started playing them like his dead character; the only way you'd have to 'leash' him would be heavy-handed railroading along the lines of a Geas, and then he'd chafe at it and probably lash out/act out disruptively (and he would be entirely justified in doing so). The only way to get a player to change is to get them to buy in OOC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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